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Agreed fully with Dashofpepper.

I play chess competitively, and to be honest I find wargames more strategically complex - the fact that you can never rely on the dice forces you to always have a backup plan (nothing like that in chess). I chose 40k over other wargames because I like the background, even if I am another boring Guard player.

40k is a tactically immersive game, and I'm a strategy guy - by no means an artist. I accept that people think it more proper to paint armies so I make a half-assed effort at painting (boy, do I suck at it). I've been playing maybe half a year and have painted two squads of Guardsmen and one Sentinel.

Admittedly, I do find converting to be fun.

This sort of thread is fun. Hipocritical, Heated and Holier-than-though. Three H's.

Does anyone really have the right to tell anyone else how to enjoy thir Hobby? I think we can all agree on "No". This means that,m While I cannot tell you that you have to paint your army, if I choose that my "Hobby" involves only fighting fully painted armies, by the same note that means I can refuse to play you. I won't, because then I would never get to play, but still, I could, and there is nothing you can do to naysay it.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:This sort of thread is fun. Hipocritical, Heated and Holier-than-though. Three H's.

I couldn't resist.

I personally try to paint everything i have, i Really love when my Wolves of Russ stand victorious on the field of battle, and my Opponents always say its "cause they look good painted" most of my models have about an average of 20-30 Paints and 2-3 washes on them. From the Newest Blood Claw to the Oldest Wolf Gaurd. And with the new models make it even more enjoyable for me to spend my hours sitting behind my desk with my hundreds of paints and brushes and going to town making each model an Epic story upon itself. And i prefer to play painted armys

That being said, is my entire army painted? About 2500 Points is. But i have over 7000 points of space wolfs to put together, and most of those are not painted yet, or put together , but i do have a few squads put together that are primer black, and i don't mind.

Most my friends play with a squad or two painted, but more then half the army black, i don't mind, because when all said in done my painting inspires and they get different models to work on painting them better.

I actually Encourage people to play with anything they have together, painted or not, because sometimes its just a proxie for something someone -wants- to get put together but cannot make up their mind. A few battles help them make up their mind and then they get working on actually painting it and whatnot

If someone never plans to paint their army, woopie doo, My army looks awesome, they are a good opponent i don't see any problems with it, i prefer to play, but to those who love to paint, i love sitting and talking about that too

People are welcome to have holier-than-thou attitudes like this. Until they open their mouths to proclaim that others are unworthy because they are not holy enough.

Feel free to be a jerk, a racist, a snob, or anything else you like but please keep it to yourself!! If you choose not to play with someone else because you don't think their hobbying efforts are good enough for you, that's fine - but be polite about it. Don't communicate that sentiment. Say "I'm not here to play today, just watching" or "I'm got something scheduled, we'll have to try another time."

If you really want them to paint their stuff before you will play them, how about this one: "I haven't got time to play right now, but I'll help you with a paint scheme if you like?"

I agree that there are many reasons for not having painted models. Painting to me means that you do care about other aspects of the game. You take great pride in your armies and the hobby. Yes there are all kinds of players and yes everyone has the right to play as they see fit. There in so reason anyone should be forced to paint if they don't want to. I , do however wait and paint all my models for months before I bring them out. I have always had to find time to paint, but it is important to me to do so. Weather you paint or not it is about enjoying the hobby, it just erks me that some people put in hours of time to make great looking models and some don't. So it is again my choice to play people that I think take similar time to prepare there army. I just enjoy the game so much more when it becomes more than grey plastic. Cheers for all the responses.

I don't have much to spend, so attempt to enforce the 'you can't buy any more until you've finished what you've got' approach.

It has at least limited success. My limiting point is actually my speed at converting, it's common to see me playing some grey, silver and green halfway finished models, but not many in black primer; once I hit that stage I usually get them completed pretty quickly. Half painted models are always vehicles and HQs because I take such a long time.

Morgrim wrote:I don't have much to spend, so attempt to enforce the 'you can't buy any more until you've finished what you've got' approach.

It has at least limited success. My limiting point is actually my speed at converting, it's common to see me playing some grey, silver and green halfway finished models, but not many in black primer; once I hit that stage I usually get them completed pretty quickly. Half painted models are always vehicles and HQs because I take such a long time.

I try my best with this attempt as well, but being such a small army at the moment it's more important for me to get things modeled and glued so I can actually start playing. I actually have kind of an opposite approach to my models as you - most of my models are at the black primer stage, because it takes more time for me to paint than it does to model. The main problem is, my eyes strain easily, so staring at a model for a long period of time actually makes me go a little cross-eyed. Modeling, however, I can easily just glance at a model for a few seconds, dab on some glue, and watch TV while I hold pieces together and wait for them to dry.

At the OP: I really can't understand why it's annoying to see models that don't look absolutely gorgeous with a few hours put into each individual model. First off, there are vast differences between armies and their individual paint schemes. For example, Tau and Necron both require very little painting - they have fairly monocolor models in the first place (Necron especially, though Tau Fire Warriors seem to require little more than a base coat over the armor and a few sept markings). The other prime example is horde armies that require a lot of models to be built before playing - Orks are especially notorious, since they have skin and muscles that require painting.

While I admit that it's great to see beautiful models that look like they have some serious time spent on them (My buddy has an absolutely amazing Tyranid army that has numerous 32-man gaunt squads that are actually flocked on top) there's no reason to shun someone - that is, refuse to play against them - because they lack time to paint models. Jobs, families, school, homework, etc. can all quickly chew up free time that's required for painting.

There are 2 sides to 40k.

1: the GAME
2: the HOBBY

Remember its a wargame. the hobby part of it is just fluff along nthe lines of the lore and so on. GW grinding more cash out of us....

personally i think it extremely childish to force the hobby part of 40k on someone who only wishes to play it for the actual gameplay. I really don't think anyone has the right to force many hours of work and many € of expense on someone who only wants to play the game side of it, and who would not enjoy the painting part of it.

For me its a hobby, and i've got 30/220 models painted so far, with more being completed everyday, but it has taken me weeks to get to this stage. can i not play till its all painted? i'll be waiting the next year and a half in that case........

I would have no trouble playing someone with an all grey army, as i understand how life is for people with a busy schedule. for me its paintballing, scuba diving, work, girlfriend, friends, etc etc. If this is the be all and end of of your free-time, then fine! enjoy it, but grow up and understand this is not the case with everyone.

Well, I'll post my two cents to fit in.
Personally, I love painted armies, but I take a very long time to fully motivate myself and I jump from model to model a lot. Plus, having just got into the hobby maybe 7 months ago, I am still getting new models, assembling, and playing. And when time permits I paint. I do agree with the view that you can refuse to play unpainted armies, but be polite, or be really nice and just do a small points game. Maybe getting the person to play against a painted army will inspire him/her to paint, thus making your next encounter more enjoyable. I know it does to me, though there is one guy who intimidates me paintwise. Damn veteran players with lots of practice...

Just out of curiosity, all those of you who don't really want to paint your figures, what attracted you to the hobby in the first place? This is not a trick question or anything, I'm really curious because for me it was seeing all the painted figures being used in a game.

Likewise its seeing the pictures of painted figures in WD or on-line that makes me think about buying them. If GW just advertised their figures with pictures of sprues or put together unpainted figures I'm sure it would affect their sales.

If you don't want to paint your figures that's fair enough and your right to choose not to but I think its unfair if you have a go at someone who says they would rather not play against your unpainted army as that's their choice as well.

Mick

Well, I'll reiterate it, but I think that to help the painting hobby, try to wow the players who aren't big into painting into painting, or volunteer to help them get good. It shouldn't so much be shun the non painters as it should be help turn them on to the whole hobby experience.

This is a rule I have imposed on myself. I play an Ork army. Sort of. I have yet to play a game with it. I bought the Green Tide a year ago, throw in procrastination and suddenly I'm just finishing my first unit now. This is so I don't assemble them, battle and then buy more to improve my army.

You know what? It is starting to look good. Not White Dwarf quality, but it's what I define as tabletop quality. It's painted to the best of my ability. That's what I strive for. Not everyone needs to do this, but I appreciate it if some effort is included.

I don't have a problem with others playing with grey models, but it's nice to see the army slowly get coloured in each time you face it. I would never refuse a pickup game due to unpainted models, but in a tournament I may not be as forgiving. With friends, it's different. I'll play with them, but after the first few times without progress I'll start to nag. I'll suggest that he starts to paint, or that he assembles his models. That sort of thing. If I notice that he's buying more when he's got most of his army unpainted, I will comment. I will start suggesting that he doesn't play with unpainted, or that he doesn't buy more until he finishes what he has.

Does it bother me when an opponent sets up a grey or black army? Yes. Yes it does. Will I respect him less than I would if he painted his models? Yes. Am I a holier-than-thou prick? Yes, if that's what you define someone who likes to have a scenic battle that looks good as.

Most of Dakka supports me. Look at the Batrep section. You'll find threads where there are unpainted/proxied armies v.s. well painted converted models. The comments will swing in favour of the painted models, and there will be comments such as "I wish your opponent painted their models.". Painted battles look better, and make the experience better for all involved. Otherwise you might as well be using tokens to represent models.

I don't think the:

"I have no time to paint" excuse works...they had the time to assemble the models. Then there is the high possibility of making time to paint them within a reasonable amount of time.

"Not wanting to" is the reason rather than having no time. Sure, gak happens in life, but I spend maybe 20 minutes to do some highlighting, hand base coat, a face there, a base there.

Hell, you have time on the john... you could be doing something there that's not terribly important like reading a magazine, substitute it for..../shrug painting...

At least that's my opinion on that.

Dashofpepper wrote:People are welcome to have holier-than-thou attitudes like this. Until they open their mouths to proclaim that others are unworthy because they are not holy enough.

Feel free to be a jerk, a racist, a snob, or anything else you like but please keep it to yourself!! If you choose not to play with someone else because you don't think their hobbying efforts are good enough for you, that's fine - but be polite about it. Don't communicate that sentiment. Say "I'm not here to play today, just watching" or "I'm got something scheduled, we'll have to try another time."

If you really want them to paint their stuff before you will play them, how about this one: "I haven't got time to play right now, but I'll help you with a paint scheme if you like?"

But it will be quite funny, that he is too busy to play with an unpainted army, but the has time all of a sudden when someone with a painted army comes in. Just be polite and say no thankyou, I prefer to play a painted army. Be honest, and don't be a jerk about it.

Mick A wrote:Just out of curiosity, all those of you who don't really want to paint your figures, what attracted you to the hobby in the first place? This is not a trick question or anything, I'm really curious because for me it was seeing all the painted figures being used in a game.

Likewise its seeing the pictures of painted figures in WD or on-line that makes me think about buying them. If GW just advertised their figures with pictures of sprues or put together unpainted figures I'm sure it would affect their sales.

If you don't want to paint your figures that's fair enough and your right to choose not to but I think its unfair if you have a go at someone who says they would rather not play against your unpainted army as that's their choice as well.

Mick

I was playing alot of Battletech at the time. I wanted to try something different with different rules. So it wasn't the painted minis that got me into 40K but RT and it's rules that did. Unfortunately, nobody else played so I never continued until years and years later.

I greatly prefer playing against painted armies. Warhammer and Warhammer 40k are actually pretty poor games when taken just as games. There's something wrong with game design focused on selling the newest models.

If I wanted just to play a game, I wouldn't even look at these games. There are so many ridiculous conventions (such as having guns that have a realistic range of several miles being deployed within a turn's charge range of guys with swords) that the whole concept seems rather silly.

No, the reason to play these games is the visual appeal. And that includes the models being painted. If I wanted to play against an unpainted army, I'd play Chess (I mean, no one paints their army in Chess).

I won't be a dick about it. I will play against unpainted armies, especially if someone is just starting up. But I won't go out of my way to do so. The easiest way to get me interested in an event, be it a big apocalypse game, or a tournament, is to tell me that painting will be required. Because then I know that we'll have the visual appeal going for us.

Painting isn't hard, it doesn't take a long time. A few techniques go a long way. If you cannot be bothered to invest a little time and effort (or $$ - I have nothing against people who pay to have their armies painted) in order to field a painted army, why should I be bothered to invest the time and effort in gaming with you?

As a side note to the painted vs. unpainted conversation, I make decent money painting models and then slapping them up on Ebay. I haven’t had time to do it lately, but it’s nice to turn a $35 model into an extra $20 on top by assembling and painting for pure enjoyment.

It might behoove the good painters out there to observe the armies at their LGS, purchase a common element of that army such as a Rhino, Squad of Guardsmen, or whatever, paint it up, and offer it for sale to the player of that army for a little profit. If they don’t bite, you can always sell it on Ebay.

I recently attended a tournament where another participant was running an army I sold off several years ago. It was kinda cool having “two” opportunities to win Best Painted (I ended up taking it with the army I currently own).

If you’re bound and determined to play against painted armies, maybe you can lend your artist touch to those without – and turn a little profit doing so.

Redbeard, while I respect your opinion, I have to slightly disagree. The reason YOU play these games is the visual appeal. I play because I love the tactical aspects of the game and know that any FLGS I walk into will probably have 40k players that frequent it. Painting is probably one of the smallest factors in my enjoyment of the game. Honestly, when I play, I don't even notice whether units are painted are not as I'm focusing on the tactical situation. 40k is unique enough to have fans even without the painting aspect. Saying that the absolute only reason to play 40k is visual appeal is simply not true. It's your reason, but it's not everyone's reason.

Having said that, if someone was to tell me "Hey, I really would rather play that guy because his army is painted." I wouldn't consider that any different than my screening comment of "I really would rather play that guy because I need to practice for an upcoming tourney and his army gives me fits."

Redbeard wrote:I greatly prefer playing against painted armies. Warhammer and Warhammer 40k are actually pretty poor games when taken just as games. There's something wrong with game design focused on selling the newest models.

If I wanted just to play a game, I wouldn't even look at these games. There are so many ridiculous conventions (such as having guns that have a realistic range of several miles being deployed within a turn's charge range of guys with swords) that the whole concept seems rather silly.

No, the reason to play these games is the visual appeal. And that includes the models being painted. If I wanted to play against an unpainted army, I'd play Chess (I mean, no one paints their army in Chess).

I won't be a dick about it. I will play against unpainted armies, especially if someone is just starting up. But I won't go out of my way to do so. The easiest way to get me interested in an event, be it a big apocalypse game, or a tournament, is to tell me that painting will be required. Because then I know that we'll have the visual appeal going for us.

Painting isn't hard, it doesn't take a long time. A few techniques go a long way. If you cannot be bothered to invest a little time and effort (or $$ - I have nothing against people who pay to have their armies painted) in order to field a painted army, why should I be bothered to invest the time and effort in gaming with you?

I can see where you are coming from until I read your last post. WTFAU to be saying if I or someone else can't be bothered to invest a littltine time and effort or $$. So you are better than me because you have more money than me? How do you know that we have time? Do we have to explain our life situation to you? How about I lost my job so I already bought what I have when I had a job, but now, no job I can't afford new paints now. Thanks a ******* lot now for making me feel good, because I can't afford new paints to what I already bought when things were going good. Thanks for making me feel like crap because I am too poor now till things get better in the economy so I can get a job to get extra income so I can buy more paint.

Oh I see I guess my kids and family should starve then. And don't tell me, paint is only $5 bucks a bottle. To get more paint and what not, living pay check to pay check $20 or $30 bucks go a long way to get milk, bread, gasoling so my Wife can still get to work.

Thanks alot for making me feel less human because my company closed down, I don't have the spare income now to get paint to complete an army even though I have the time now.

There are many reasons why people can't paint an army, again, don't be an ass about it, just be polite about it. Saying "why should I bother play with you when you can't bother painting an army" is just plain rude, insulting and belidilling, unless you know for shure the person dosn't bother painting, and says he will but dosn't.

Sorry, for the rant, you made me feel like gak now, but I am over it now.

Mick A wrote:Just out of curiosity, all those of you who don't really want to paint your figures, what attracted you to the hobby in the first place? This is not a trick question or anything, I'm really curious because for me it was seeing all the painted figures being used in a game.

Likewise its seeing the pictures of painted figures in WD or on-line that makes me think about buying them. If GW just advertised their figures with pictures of sprues or put together unpainted figures I'm sure it would affect their sales.

If you don't want to paint your figures that's fair enough and your right to choose not to but I think its unfair if you have a go at someone who says they would rather not play against your unpainted army as that's their choice as well.

Mick

dont get me wrong, it is awe inspiring seeing two fully painted forces go at it on an honest to goodness well made and prepared game table. it is a definite game selling tactic and i understand that however, to say "i wont play you because you're force is unpainted and you obviously dont care about the hobby as much as i do because of it" is just wrong. ive played a lot of people with painted armies who are complete a-holes and ive played plenty of people that can barely put a miniature together that are some of the nicest people in the world. by having this elitist i paint and am therefore better than you are attitude really does nothing other than deprive you of the chance to meet some nice folk and possibly have a great game. and to say that people who only put their miniatures together without painting them are only in it for the gaming aspect of the hgobby and looking to win is completely false.

now... what got me into the hobby? rogue trader... i saw someone in high school reading a book labeled warhammer and thought it had something to do with battletech... silly me, so i struck up a conversation with the guy and low and behold a short time later we were battling it out on the table top with ... wait for it ... unpainted miniatures.

now what has kept me over the years? its certainly not the rules because they have changed who knows how many times over the years. it is the background(which unfortunately GW seems to be getting lazy with), the fun of assembling little toy soldiers and the time spent with friends and strangers while letting little armies duke it over a miniature battlefield.

Davor wrote:I can see where you are coming from until I read your last post. WTFAU to be saying if I or someone else can't be bothered to invest a littltine time and effort or $$. So you are better than me because you have more money than me? How do you know that we have time? Do we have to explain our life situation to you? How about I lost my job so I already bought what I have when I had a job, but now, no job I can't afford new paints now. Thanks a ******* lot now for making me feel good, because I can't afford new paints to what I already bought when things were going good. Thanks for making me feel like crap because I am too poor now till things get better in the economy so I can get a job to get extra income so I can buy more paint.

Oh I see I guess my kids and family should starve then. And don't tell me, paint is only $5 bucks a bottle. To get more paint and what not, living pay check to pay check $20 or $30 bucks go a long way to get milk, bread, gasoling so my Wife can still get to work.

Thanks alot for making me feel less human because my company closed down, I don't have the spare income now to get paint to complete an army even though I have the time now.

Less human? Talk about putting words in his mouth. I have to raise two points, if your army is unpainted now why didn't you buy paints at the same time you could afford the figures? Figures are far more expensive than paints, I've been using the same paints for years other than basic colours like black, white and flesh, and then buying the odd specialist military colour. I doubt I even spent £20 on paints and brushes last year. £20 goes nowhere on GW miniatures, it's a squad of something. And secondly, if you're seriously having trouble feeding your children your Warhammer army isn't a priority painted or otherwise. It's sheer hyperbole - "Hey, stop forcing me to paint my minatures or my family will starve and have to take to living in a cardboard box! Is that what you want?! IS IT?!!?!!11!"

I've cut back on buying and sold off some of my stuff to go through the hard times, I'm still saddened to think that I had to sell off my Slaves to Darkness and Ere We Go, I wish I'd thought of something else actually. If anything, painting is what I do to get the most from the hobby now. I can't afford large amounts of figures, I have to work with what I have and get the best out of them which means painting and occasionally playing Skirmish games though GW have done their best to finish off the budget games like Gorkamorka and Necromunda.

Mick A wrote:Just out of curiosity, all those of you who don't really want to paint your figures, what attracted you to the hobby in the first place? This is not a trick question or anything, I'm really curious because for me it was seeing all the painted figures being used in a game.

Mick

For me it is the gaming aspect. I love strategy games (risk, Rome total war, etc).

Painting i see as pure fluff and while i enjoy it, it means absolubtely nothing when it comes to tactics, good army planning, etc.

If i were to take up painting for paintings' sake, i would have bought myself a canvas and oil paints.....

Well,I think its OK to play.
Every one have own view.
In my case,I play with undercoated one first. Then find important miniatures which do good job on board. Some times I gave name for him.
And I have plan to choose "command chimera" after game. I bought 5 chimeras(not yet arrived tho).
When their debut game,I'll use them at same time and after that,chimera which last longer or work very well would awarded as "command chimera". I'll do special paint on it.
Its like dice religion but yeah its fun part I think.

BTW

LordofHats wrote:At my FLGS, a lot of people build stuff they've bought that day in the store. Its nice that they can assemble their model, and then play a game or two with it before the final gluing and painting. I did it saturday with my Vindicator, and I was pleased that no one cared I was fielding it with just the body assembled and no paint. I did the same with my predators which was especially nice because I could play around with the configurations before deciding what to glue together.

I can get the official events, but at a friendly game its nice to let people play with their new unit before they begin the arduous task of painting.

I love this idea. I wish I could do same on my FLGS.

I bought my mini's years ago when I was working. Then I got out of the hobby again. Then a few years later I came back into the hobby.

Most of my paints have dried up. It's a bit hard to explain to the wifey that I need new paints. I could only buy a few at a time, but what can you do with Black, blue and green? It gets boring after a while.

Then again, I do paint my minis with what I have. But if I am in this kind of potion, what about others who are really worse off than me? If he could make me feel like crap (buy saying not having $$$) imagine what others could feel like?

I guess what pissed me off the most was, he was saying he has more $$$ than me so he is better than me. Just becasue you got more money dosn't mean you are a better person than me. Again sorry for the rant, and lets get back on topic.

Just because something is not painted, don't be a dick about it, just be polite, and that is one thing I havn't seen from the people who don't like non painted armies. They are not polite or respectable about it. There are many reasons why someone can't paint one reason or another, and we should respect it.

What's next, we are going to expect everybody not to look like nerds slobs? Oh I can't play you because you look to geeky and nerdy. I don't want to be associated with 'your' type. Is that next?

You could avoid the whole problem of Pred sponson choosing by magnatising it, or using some other method to make it inter changable...

Greenstuff + paper clips.
Legos.
Magnets.
Etc.
_________________
@CruelCoin:

These minis are but a different canvas and the GW paints are a different medium.

I go to holistic tourneys, so painting is required...and hell they look better..."and perform better" as the gaming superstitions go.
________________
@Davor:
I do expect those 'nerds' to bathe.
So, is delcining a game vs. an unpainted army a dick move in your opinion?

Gornall wrote:Redbeard, while I respect your opinion, I have to slightly disagree. The reason YOU play these games is the visual appeal. I play because I love the tactical aspects of the game and know that any FLGS I walk into will probably have 40k players that frequent it. Painting is probably one of the smallest factors in my enjoyment of the game. Honestly, when I play, I don't even notice whether units are painted are not as I'm focusing on the tactical situation. 40k is unique enough to have fans even without the painting aspect. Saying that the absolute only reason to play 40k is visual appeal is simply not true. It's your reason, but it's not everyone's reason.

If you're looking for a tactical game, there are many significantly better ones out there than W40k. I accept your point about being able to find opponents more easily, as GW games are the most widespread wargame. Still, on a more global scale, I can walk into any town anywhere in the world and find someone to play chess with.

Davor wrote:
So you are better than me because you have more money than me?

Obviously.



I refuse to dignify your absurd rant with any further responses. If you're out-of-work and your family is starving, maybe you should sell your figs on eBay so you can feed them rather than worrying about whether they're painted or not.

Do whatever you want or feel is right, but don't be surprised if someone calls you a jackarse for doing it.

Rules for living

Redbeard wrote:If you're looking for a tactical game, there are many significantly better ones out there than W40k. I accept your point about being able to find opponents more easily, as GW games are the most widespread wargame. Still, on a more global scale, I can walk into any town anywhere in the world and find someone to play chess with.

Not shure how you can find chess players. I don't see and FLGS that people play chess. Then again, I live under a rock now

I see chess players:
-in the park.
-Outside Au Bon Pain on the tables.
-internet.
-I'm sure they have something akin to bingo night with certain clubs.

IMO, if your at least intending to paint, then you're good. I played a game this weekend against an ork player. It was a tourney (albeit tiny one) and he showed up with a list that included 150 gretchin... Besides the inanity of having that many models to move and set up in a timed tourney, he didn't have them painted, and didn't even really bother deploying them. He told me before the game "Hey, to save us both time, i'm just going to plop this ziploc bag full of unpainted gretchin here where they are, instead of actually deploying them."

Now, I'm not saying I'm better than that, but there is a tendency to not care about your paint = not caring about your models.

(and even more frustrating than waiting for 150+ models to move was him looking up every stat for his army... seriously, know your codex. Tangent off.)