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Saldiven wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Oh nooeesss...... just like back when we argued about if a Leman Russ Battle tank is the same as a Leman Russ Squadron of just 1, as per the Witch Hunter codex........and you were proven wrong with the Errata that came out........I wounder if this is a similar situation.......

Um...if he were wrong, there would have been no need for an errata.

Ya know, I was just thinking that

I think arguing about whether or not they become a single unit is not only unanswerable, but also doesn't answer the question.

We know for sure that the rules tell us that an IC can deploy inside a dedicated transport with the unit that bought the transport. Whether they are one unit or two units doesn't matter: they can deploy together.

We also know for sure that all the rules for dedicated transports only describe vehicles.

The Tyranid codex tells us that a spod is a dedicated transport, and also tells us that it's not a vehicle.

So the question really is, do the "dedicated transport" rules in the "transport vehicle" section on page 67 apply to dedicated transports that are not vehicles?

If you decide that the dedicated transport rules apply to spods even though they're not vehicles, then the IC can deploy in spods with the unit, the spod can only be used by the unit that bought it as a transport, and spods don't count on the FOC chart. Looks like the majority on this thread are arguing this position.

If you decide that the dedicated transport rules only apply to transports that are vehicles, then the IC can't deploy with the unit in the spod, the spod can be used by anybody to deploy, and spods count on the FOC chart. Gwar! is the one who is primarily arguing this position.

Personally I'm inclined to say that the general rules for dedicated transports apply to spods, even though they are not vehicles, because they are still dedicated transports. The codex is specifying a spod as a exceptional sub-category of the general category of dedicated transports, and the major thing that's different about spods is they aren't vehicles. But that's just an opinion.

What about on page 67? If IC and a unit are in the same vehicle, they are automatically joined. So an Alpha Warrior and 19 gants in a Spore pod are joined as a single unit then.

Am I reading something wrong here?

I can't believe this is still going.

Mycetic Spores are Dedicated Transports. This is utterly undeniable.

Simply follow the rules for dedicated transports.
This points us to, and therefore includes, the rules for transport vehicles.

*Snip*
"But it isn't a vehicle!" I can hear you rage.
Guess what? It doesn't matter!
The rules tells us to use a certain set of rules in regards to Mycetic Spores.
JUST.....DO.....SO.
*Snip*

Happily this won't be a problem since everything written there, that hinges on being a vehicle,....isn't relevant to a Mycetic Spore.
All talk of Fire points, Access points and Effects of Damage Results On Passengers is completely and utterly irrelevant as they will never be an issue.

Whats next?

ICs?

ICs become a complete and indistinguishable part of a joined unit for transport purposes.

Are you going to say that a Chaplain in Terminator Armour is a seperate unit for transport purposes from the 5 Terminators whose squad he has joined?

Because that would mean they (as a squad) wouldn't be able to embark in, say a Land Raider as only a single squad can be embarked in a single transport at any time (the first idiot that starts to bring up Apocalypse and Super Heavies gets a swift kick in the nuts).

Who gives a flying....bird....whether the IC can be singled out in close combat or not! For transport purposes they (the squad and any joined IC) count as a single unit.

*Snip*
"Well, the rules state that a single unit and/or any attached IC can be transported".
Yes, and guess what....again?
Those are the rules we must follow.
*Snip*

We must follow all the rules in the Transport Vehicle with the exception of;
A) Specific exceptions mentioned in the codex and
B) the limitations imposed on us by the Dedicated Transport section of the rules.

Steelmage99 wrote:
words words words
(the first idiot that starts to bring up Apocalypse and Super Heavies gets a swift kick in the nuts).
words words words

But apocalypse is a completely valid argument as it is part of the 40k ruleset

Eidolon wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
words words words
(the first idiot that starts to bring up Apocalypse and Super Heavies gets a swift kick in the nuts).
words words words

But apocalypse is a completely valid argument as it is part of the 40k ruleset

But it's a different set of game rules. In a regular 40K game can you have gargantuen creatures? No because they are not in a 40K codex. Can you use those big huge blast templates? No because we are not using Apocalypse rules.

I think he was joking.

At least I hope he was.

Oh, and Eidolon? *Swish thunk!*

Its not a different set of game rules, its an expansion.
Lets see what changes
no force org
one mission
big critters allowed. And you can use big things in regular games, like at adepticon.

Basically people want to keep some of the rules for dedicated transport ,but ignore the rests "because its not a vehicle".

that's exactly the argument, it states its a dedicated transport it follows the rules for dedicated transport. you do not get to pick and choose which rules it follows.

This is inherently wrong on many levels.

It doesn't matter if you have 2 alpha warriors and 18 gaunts and a Spore pod.

The fact is the dedicated transport rules allow a exception for ICs to be inside and joined to another unit with in them.


That's it.


If you are going to argue that it follows some but not all of the rules for dedicated transports then i am going to argue that it takes up an FOC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So Gwar why does it not take up an FOC?

Flavius Infernus wrote:I think arguing about whether or not they become a single unit is not only unanswerable, but also doesn't answer the question.

This.

Also, thanks everyone who engaged in the debate on this in a constructive manner.

@nosferatu1001
I take your point. However, ICs are not normal members of the unit, as evidenced by their special rules that allow them to do things like walk away from the unit. I'm not arguing that you're incorrect, rather that it nowhere states "they are now one unit." They use other words such as "normal member" "joined to" "considered a part of" and "treated as."

If I recall, there are numerous arguments that come up on YMTC that use terminology like this to make their point. I know it (seemed) more cut and dry, but the Furious Charge/Counter-attack discussion relied on Counter-attack acting "as if," but not actually. My point is just that it's unfortunate that they didn't use entirely definitive language (i.e. "They are now one unit". I concede that you are probably, almost definitely, right. But you know that anytime someone qualifies an absolute something is wrong. I believe that RAW *might* make them one unit, I believe RAI *does* make them one unit, and I believe that Flavius was right when he says that whether they are or not matters less than the transport rules. But an interesting discussion, anyway.

@paidinfull
Maybe it's just the philosophy in me, but I just have a hard time that one thing joining another maintains the simplicity of "one." For example, if a squad with Scouts is joined by an IC without Scouts, I believe the entire squad loses Scouts. Since it is the *unit* that has the ability Scouts, wouldn't the IC automatically gain Scouts if it became a part of the unit?

However, to you (as well as nosferatu), I concede that you are probably right. ICs have many "special" rules that dictate what happens when they do or don't join a unit. This could easily be argued as specific > general, and in which case, I think you have me stumped. I certainly *cannot* prove you wrong, and I admit as much.

@No one in particular...
When Darth Bob quoted the rule earlier, the language does show that the troops do not "disembark" but rather "are deployed." In some senses, this alone makes the rules kind of silly. My guess is that GW wanted the Spore to not take up FOC, and that's why they included the words dedicated transport and for no other reason. That is then allowing the question of the ICs (because if it completely followed its own rules you'd have to go by what it says directly -- which has no mention of ICs). But since my guess is worth absolutely nothing, and I have nothing left to contribute without simply going into semantics, I'll end here.

The fact that they "are purchased as an upgrade for another brood" makes it questionable to me, more than the rest.

/shrug

So if I am reading peoples debate properly that means SM like Calgar, or Interigator Chaplains and even Belieal cannot go into drop pods or vechicles, since only transports can hold only one unit in it.

I just want to know how in the DA codex IC can join Terminators so they can Deathwing Assault. If they are not part of the squad they can't DWA. So how come DA IC can join a squat but a Tyranid IC can't join a squad?

I am shure, whey you join a unit, you become one whole unit. So why do people say when you join a unit you don't become one unit but still are 2 units. If this is the case then you can pick of an IC from shooting, and we know we can't do that because the IC is part of a unit.

I am so confused now, what was the original question of this thread?

Lucidicide wrote:I take your point. However, ICs are not normal members of the unit, as evidenced by their special rules that allow them to do things like walk away from the unit. I'm not arguing that you're incorrect, rather that it nowhere states "they are now one unit." They use other words such as "normal member" "joined to" "considered a part of" and "treated as."

What about the part on page 48, right column, second bullet point: "while an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together."

Eidolon wrote:Its not a different set of game rules, its an expansion.
Lets see what changes
no force org
one mission
big critters allowed. And you can use big things in regular games, like the Gladiator, one of several tournaments at adepticon.

[Clarification]

Arschbombe wrote: What about the part on page 48, right column, second bullet point: "while an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together."

Thats what I was going to mention as well. They are listed as a "unit" singular and not "units" plural.

Eidolon wrote:Its not a different set of game rules, its an expansion.
Lets see what changes
no force org
one mission
big critters allowed. And you can use big things in regular games, like at adepticon.

Oh....you were serious.

The reason why Apocalypse and Superheavies aren't relevant in this discussion is because Superheavies have their own set of exceptions to the normal rules for transports.
So pointing out; "Superheavies can carry more than a single squad" is irrelevant in this discussion.


And, NO. You cannot take the big things in regular 40K. Gladiator at Adepticon is NOT regular 40K. It is regular 40K....with the addition of Apocalypse/Forgeworld units.

Eidolon wrote:The errata cannot prove or disprove anything, its simply a disagreement with Gwar on GWs part. Which as they have repeatedly demonstrated, especially since Jervis "I hate tournaments" Johnson took over they are incapable of making a balanced, or clear rules set. GW has more authority but is not necessarily right.

It invalidated gwar's ruling, that is indispurtable.

But then again, anyone's ideas on how things are supposed to work are guess work at best. You never know how gw is going to errata/faq it.

If gw used precedence, it would be easier 'to guess'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eidolon wrote:They still arent the same unit on force organization chart. And what is meant by unit here? Since pods come in at the start of the game I would assume that in terms of unit they mean one force org unit, not game unit.

Let's not go making things up now.

It's confusing enough as it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eidolon wrote:Its not a different set of game rules, its an expansion.
Lets see what changes
no force org
one mission
big critters allowed. And you can use big things in regular games, like at adepticon.

Please don't bring up adepticon.

That's nothing but a farce.

This thread is basically a flame war now. Both sides repeating the same arguments with a few others on the sidelines shouting "he's right & your wrong!"

sad.

G

The codex clearly states the spores are dedicated transports. Is that why this thread withered? Did one faction win?

There's no more arguments to make about it really.