Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hollismason wrote:This argument that all tranports are vehicles is ridiculous a its already been disproven.

Errm. Whut? All Transport vehicles ARE Vehicles. The Spore is NOT a Transport vehicle. Mainly because it isn't a vehicle.

Codex > than BRB

Wrong.

the codex says it is a dedicated transport.

Yes, and? The codex does NOT say it is a Transport Vehicle Thus, the transport vehicle rules do NOT apply to it.

First off it states in the basic rule book that codex rules that are different or are slightly differentnt you should go with the Codex over the basic rulebook. So that is incorrect. The Tyranid codex states that the spore is a Monstrous Creature that is also a dedicated transport. It's treated as a dedicated transport even though it is not a vehicle.


2nd you just agreed it was a dedicated transport per the rules for dedicated transports on page 67 it says
the only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters


The rule is not for just vehicles it states pretty clearly.

It cannot be halfway purgatorish something. It's a dedicated transport it doesnt take up a FOC, it can only be selected for that unit, and a independent character can be joined and deployed with it.


By your argument I can do this with the rule book.


Page 66
A transport vehicle ----- can ------use a psychic power.


Your ignoring whole parts of the rules for dedicated transports while accepting some of them.

Hollismason wrote:First off it states in the basic rule book that codex rules that are different or are slightly differentnt you should go with the Codex over the basic rulebook.

This is correct.

Codex> Rulebook is not. If Codex>Rulebook, then the reference to Rulebook>Codex in Sweeping Advance would be meaningless. What you are looking for is Specific > General.

2nd you just agreed it was a dedicated transport per the rules for dedicated transports on page 67 it says
the only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters

Yes, and? The more specific rules found in the Tyranid Codex override the general rules found in the main rulebook.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:By your argument I can do this with the rule book.


Page 66
A transport vehicle ----- can ------use a psychic power.


Your ignoring whole parts of the rules for dedicated transports while accepting some of them.

Yay Strawman!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:By your argument I can do this with the rule book.


Page 66
A transport vehicle ----- can ------use a psychic power.


Your ignoring whole parts of the rules for dedicated transports while accepting some of them.

Yay Strawman!

Gwar! wrote:

coredump wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, he is an IC joined to the Unit. They are still 2 separate units.

Really??

You are going to try and argue that an IC joined to a unit is two separate units?

Do you want to take that back, or do I really need to list the reasons why that doesn't work?

Go ahead. No matter what your "reasons" are though, I am still right, because I have rules to back up my claims.

Gwar! wrote:No matter what your "reasons" are though, I am still "right", because I have "rules" to back up my "claims".

Felt you needed a few more quotes in your rebuttal. While your 'sand and salt' analogy is crystal clear, it is not intensely similar, thus failing. What your missing is that in the rulebook on either P.47 or P.48 (I forget at the moment), it explicitly tells you to treat the joined IC/Upgrade Character as 'just another trooper' in the unit it joined. For regular deployment and reserves a dedicated transport and the unit it was bought for are effectively considered one unit if those troops decide to be embarked in the vehicle during deployment. Since the Pod is also considered a dedicated transport there is no reason why an IC may not join the unit that is embarked upon it. Once the game begins the infantry unit and the dedicated transport are two units from that point on.

Perhaps you meant to say that there are times throughout the game that an IC and the unit it joined are treated as separate units (e.g., Assault, when the unit is wiped out, IC leaves the unit, etc).

Edit: Just a slight clarification in case you pick up on it. I do understand that the embarked unit and transport are two separate units. But for the purposes of deployement/reserves they 'act' as one. Again, there is no reason, unless the IC's rules explicitly disallow it, to stop a character from joining a unit that has purchased, and embarked upon, a Dedicated Transport. On more edit, Dedicated Troops do not take up a slot on the FoC. Non-Dedicated Transports (e.g., Land Raider) do take up a slot. Because the Pod is considered a Dedicated Transport (not sure if it can be purchased as a non-dedicated), it does not take up a slot.

-Yad

The rules in the book for Transports tell you that it can carry an Independent Character along with the unit inside. The rules for Transport Spore says it may only carry a single unit, and gives no allowance for attaching ICs to that unit. You said it yourself, Codex > Rule Book.

Aduro wrote:The rules in the book for Transports tell you that it can carry an Independent Character along with the unit inside. The rules for Transport Spore says it may only carry a single unit, and gives no allowance for attaching ICs to that unit. You said it yourself, Codex > Rule Book.

I'll need to re-read P.47-48, as well as P.64, but my initial instinct is to disagree with this. I think, and I'll know for sure once I read the entries, is that when an IC joins a unit it is considered a single unit that is occasionally treated as two separate units under specific circumstances. I don't have my rulebook with me so take it for what it's worth.

-Yad

Aduro wrote:The rules in the book for Transports tell you that it can carry an Independent Character along with the unit inside. The rules for Transport Spore says it may only carry a single unit, and gives no allowance for attaching ICs to that unit. You said it yourself, Codex > Rule Book.

Independent characters attached to units are treated for purposes as part of that unit. It doesn't need an allowance, by your logic then you cannot attach a IC to a Space Marine Squad in a Drop Pod. All it states about the spore is its able to carry 20 infantry models. A Alpha Warrior is a independent character that is infantry. He is able to join squads he can join squads in reserve if that unit has a dedicated transport then he can be deployed with the unit per the independent character rules and the dedicated transport rules.


The entry says nothing about a single unit occupying a Spore Pod, what prevents that is that it is a dedicated transport.


It really is that cut and dry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:

Aduro wrote:The rules in the book for Transports tell you that it can carry an Independent Character along with the unit inside. The rules for Transport Spore says it may only carry a single unit, and gives no allowance for attaching ICs to that unit. You said it yourself, Codex > Rule Book.

I'll need to re-read P.47-48, as well as P.64, but my initial instinct is to disagree with this. I think, and I'll know for sure once I read the entries, is that when an IC joins a unit it is considered a single unit that is occasionally treated as two separate units under specific circumstances. I don't have my rulebook with me so take it for what it's worth.

-Yad

Your correct I have my rulebook right next to me, the only time it is considered a seperate individual unit is during the assault phase in close combat. At all other times it has to act as part of that unit.

Also its on page 94 as well.

summarized

Similarly the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and or independent characters....

Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed and consequently kept in reserve either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters).


pg 67

Summarized

Dedicated Transports

The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any indpenedent characters).




The rule that the tyranid codex is not what a dedicated transport is but that a monstrous creature is a dedicated transport


It doesnt create a new type of dedicated tranport it just says this monstrous creature is a dedicated transport.

Drop Pods are Transports, and follow the rules for Transports. The rules for Transports tell you an IC can ride in it. The rules for Transport Spore don't.

ICs joining a unit are still two units. They're two units for Dawn of War deployment. They're given a special exception to the one unit rule in Transports. They're still worth two KPs. They're still separate units in Close Combat. The only times they're treated as one unit is when you shoot at them and when they move/assault together, because the rules tell you that specifically.

The rules for Transport Spore do not give an exception to ICs for the One Unit limit. I would love it if I could drop a brood of Warriors led by an Alpha into the enemy lines, but I can't. The rules don't allow it.

Did you not read what I just posted. Its a dedicated transport and follows the rules for dedicated transport.


The Spore entry does not say any such thing it says what the capacity of the spore pod is not these models only must be in the spore pod.


What prevents that is the dedicated transport rule.

Yes, and the capacity is One Unit of 20 infantry or 1 MC.

Again there is no one unit limit in the entry of spore pod. The spore does not change any rules at all other than that it is a dedicated transport that is a monstrous creature.

There is no such entry in the codex that states; Only units purchasing the spore pod may be deployed with in them.

What prevents that is the rules for DEDICATED TRANSPORTS which state taht only a unit and a ic may be deployed inside of them.

its a unit that can be taken by other units and doesnt occupt a FoC.

it has no armor value.

You cant go back into it.

You dont deploy from it, your placed in BtB

I am pretty sure its not a transport vehicle, dedicated or not. Its just a unit that grants another unit special deployment.

You cannot attach a unit to the unit going into the spore pod, pretty sure the rules state that in the codex.

The independent characters count as part of the unit when joined in reserve it states it clearly in the rulebook. They are not seperate units. It states clearly that a independent character may join a unit in reserve and be deployed including inside that units dedicated transport.

@Blacktoof

Actually it just has the deployment rules for vehicles and makes sure to not you canno assault when it lands, it also is listed and states its taken as a dedicated transport.

@aduro
19 Warriors + 1 Alpha Warrior = 1x unit of 20 models

Hollismason wrote:The independent characters count as part of the unit when joined in reserve it states it clearly in the rulebook. They are not seperate units.

they are seperate entries from the codex however and the Spods are bought per entry in the codex not per unit.

Warriors only go up to unit sizes of 9, but you could do 19 gaunts + Alhpa or 19 Genestealers + Alpha etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:

Hollismason wrote:The independent characters count as part of the unit when joined in reserve it states it clearly in the rulebook. They are not seperate units.

they are seperate entries from the codex however and the Spods are bought per entry in the codex not per unit.

Waht

No really I dont understand what you are talking about.

@blaktoof
Really, the same could be said for a Landraider or other transport, and we all understand how those work. Just think of it like a bug "Drop Pod".

This is really being made more complicated than it is. Clearly the intent and the RAW support a spore to be treated like a bug "Drop Pod". Yes it is a MC not a vehicle, but so what?

When an IC joins a unit he is a part of that unit, I fail to understand how someone could claim other wise in this instance. For example if he is killed from shooting would you not consider him as part of the unit for the purposes of a 25% Morale Check? The rules obviously are to prevent 2 SEPARATE units, like a unit of warriors and say another unit of warriors from riding the same pod down.

@hollismason
Thank you I didn't realize that, but the point I was trying to make remains the same and you have helped reinforce it.

@paidinfull

I agree, I'll probably resummarize a list of arguments and submit it when the Adepticon Faq starts up for the Tyranid codex.

Why this is an issue for the 1x IC in the book... I do not know...

He joins a termagaunt or other T3 unit... great when I shoot him he's effectively T3 mean bolters and flamers will ruin him.

He joins a stealer unit and they aren't fearless and can be made to run away

I feel like this is trying to "take something away" from the bugs. He's a normal IC right? Why can't he ride in his homies' ride?

This is definitely going to be one of those "Yes, he can ride in the Spore" GW FAQs.

paidinfull wrote:Why can't he ride in his homies' ride?

Because the rules say so.

If you don't like it, tough.

Aduro's point, and I can almost agree with it is that the Pod rules explicitly reference a single unit of 20 or 1 MC. He is asserting that an IC that joins a unit counts as two units, and hence, may not use a Pod.

I say I almost agree because I think the rules for ICs (leaving and joining units) say that they are one unit that are occasionally treated as two for very specific purposes.

-Yad

paidinfull wrote:@blaktoof
Really, the same could be said for a Landraider or other transport, and we all understand how those work. Just think of it like a bug "Drop Pod".

This is really being made more complicated than it is. Clearly the intent and the RAW support a spore to be treated like a bug "Drop Pod". Yes it is a MC not a vehicle, but so what?

When an IC joins a unit he is a part of that unit, I fail to understand how someone could claim other wise in this instance. For example if he is killed from shooting would you not consider him as part of the unit for the purposes of a 25% Morale Check? The rules obviously are to prevent 2 SEPARATE units, like a unit of warriors and say another unit of warriors from riding the same pod down.

@hollismason
Thank you I didn't realize that, but the point I was trying to make remains the same and you have helped reinforce it.

except the land raider / rhino / razorback entry doesnt specifically state you may not attach a unit or IC to the models in the vehicle. Spod states you may not attach an IC to the unit in the spod...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:Warriors only go up to unit sizes of 9, but you could do 19 gaunts + Alhpa or 19 Genestealers + Alpha etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:

Hollismason wrote:The independent characters count as part of the unit when joined in reserve it states it clearly in the rulebook. They are not seperate units.

they are seperate entries from the codex however and the Spods are bought per entry in the codex not per unit.

Waht

No really I dont understand what you are talking about.

I might have smoked crack yesterday when I sat down and read the new nid codex but the Spore pods state they are bought for an entry from the codex as an upgrade, not for units. Since Alpha warrior = 1 entry and any unit of gants /warriors = another entry they cannot be in the same spod as a upgrade. If alpha warrior had a retinue that would of course be different.

blaktoof wrote:

I might have smoked crack yesterday when I sat down and read the new nid codex but the Spore pods state they are bought for an entry from the codex as an upgrade, not for units. Since Alpha warrior = 1 entry and any unit of gants /warriors = another entry they cannot be in the same spod as a upgrade. If alpha warrior had a retinue that would of course be different.

Umm, you missed the bit about Pods are listed as Dedicated Transports and follow all the rules for Dedicated Transports as defined on P.64 (it is 64 right?) In fact, I think you need to re-read the entire section on Dedicated Transports and ICs leaving and joining a unit.

-Yad

@Blacktoof


It doesnt state that all, uh I don't really no how to respond to that. Maybe you should reread the entry or not use a leaked copy. The english dex is pretty clear they are dedicated transports purchased for the unit. They are not a "upgrade". I dont even know what that means.

@Gwar
How's bout dem rules dat say ya ken, so's I ken!
Shucks!

Gwar! wrote:No, he is an IC joined to the Unit. They are still 2 separate units.

So are you stating that if I have Logan in reserves with a unit of wolf guard, he can't enter the board with them in a transport from reserve?

@imweasel
hey now... I didn't say that!

imweasel wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, he is an IC joined to the Unit. They are still 2 separate units.

So are you stating that if I have Logan in reserves with a unit of wolf guard, he can't enter the board with them in a transport from reserve?

Transport Vehicles allow Ics to be attached to units inside transports.

A Spod is not a Transport Vehicle.

It specifically states it is a dedicated transport. Your argument is becoming circular.