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Hollismason wrote:It specifically states it is a dedicated transport. Your argument is becoming circular.

Yes, and? It's a Dedicated Transport, but it is NOT a Transport Vehicle, so it does not follow the rules for Transport Vehicles.

All of the rules I've sited Gwar are rules for dedicated transports, I really dont know how to make it any clearer.





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All of the rules I've sited Gwar are rules for dedicated transports, I really dont know how to make it any clearer.


I mean this is literally a simple logical progression.

IF X then Y.

IF ( Dedicated Transport) then ( Rules for dedicated transport)


So Its a Dedicated Transport(X)


Then (Y)

pg 67
Entry for Dedicated Transports

PG94
Again 4th paragraph, beginning with Remember


The Codex states it is a dedicated transport, there is no rule anywhere stating a monstrous creature cannot be a dedicated transport or that dedicated transports are required to be vehicles.

Let me start by saying I haven't bothered to read the relevant rules specifically, but I just had an idea to point out.

The crux seems to be the fact that the Spod is a "dedicated transport," but is not a "transport vehicle."

If you look at the rules for both "dedicated transport" and "transport vehicle," is there a breakdown that occurs with this distinction? Are their rules in the "dedicated transport" section (in their entirety) that state or imply that the transport is or must be a vehicle for the rules to work? What is the net effect of the Spod not being a "vehicle" while still being a "transport;" ie., what are the specific differences between a "dedicated transport" and a "transport vehicle?"

On page 67 of the rulebook is where you find the rules for dedicated transport that has a big heading that says DEDICATED TRANSPORTS. It does not say, All dedicated transports are vehicles.

Then under page 97 where I quoted you can find more rules regarding dedicated transports specifically.

The dedicated transports specifically have rules to the effect that a indpendent character can join a squad with in them.

The vehicle portion really doesnt matter as the Codex tells us it is a dedicated transport. THere is no rule in the entire game that says " All transports are vehicles"

Agreed, I think Gwar!'s point regarding 'a Dedicated Transport is not a Transport Vehicle' is a red herring, and has no bearing on this issue.

Aduro's point on the other hand is much more relevant. It is a similar issue with the deployment confusion that was surrounding DoW missions. Does the Pod specifically say that it may only transport one unit? If so, do you count a unit that has been joined by an Character as two or one? If it's two then I don't see how it may use a Pod (as the Pod rules are written).

My take, after reading through P.47-48, is that such a unit counts as one. Subsequently throughout the game there are instances where this unit is treated as two separate units.

-Yad

Well that and the argument about transport vehicles is kind of pointless as there are rules at other points in the rulebook specifically page 94 under Mission Special rules that give specific rules about Dedicated transports and state as such a independent character can join.

Remember, that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with( plus any independent characters).

This is not in the vehicle section its under mission special rules, not that it matters as the Tyranid Codex tells us it is a dedicated transport and that comes back to the if X then Y.

Now on to the argument of "single" unit.

It doesn't say that it says " a unit of 20 models or a MC."

If I have 9 Terminators and 1 Librarian joined taht is a unit of 10 models. It is not 2 units one being 9 and 1 being 1. This is the exception that is made for independent characters. They count toward the units total number.

Hollismason wrote:On page 67 of the rulebook is where you find the rules for dedicated transport that has a big heading that says DEDICATED TRANSPORTS. It does not say, All dedicated transports are vehicles.

The question I had primarily has to do with how embarking and how squads can use them and such are worded. Doe the rules in dedicated transports refer back to the regular vehicle rules, or are they self contained?

If the rules refer back to the vehicle rules, then Gwar!'s position might have more merit.

They don't they just talk about who can go inside a dedicated transport. It doesn't matter anyway because the specific rules of the spore pod would override that anyway.

there are no restrictions on the spore pods capacity other than a unit of 20 models or 1 monstrous creature.

The rules under mission rules are not even in the vehicle section as well.


Basically there are two sections of the BRB that deal with Dedicated Transports both have nothing to do with Transports at all.

There is your answer then, a single UNIT of 20 or 1 MC. I see nothing on page 48 that states they form one single unit.

Right, when an IC joins a unit he is "a part" of that single unit.

paidinfull wrote:Right, when an IC joins a unit he is "a part" of that single unit.

No, he is joined to the unit. It is still 2 units.

That is so wrong on so many different levels it's astonishing.
You have this idea of "Salt and Sand" being two separate units, but if you pick them up you have a single unit comprised of two parts. A person is comprised of multiple separate parts, a head, a body, two arms, and two legs, etc. A person is considered singular as it is a sum of it's parts, or in this case one unit. You wouldn't say that a tactical squad comprised of a sgt, a meltgunner, and 3 regular marines is considered 3 or 5 units because they are all separate or different parts. It's one unit. When an IC joins a unit, they are now one unit.
That's not even RAW arguing... it's just... just common sense. 1+1 = 2, 2 is a single unit comprised of 2 parts: 1 & 1. They aren't separate while they are joined.
You're really just arguing for the sake of arguing now.
A spore is a transport so the following applies to it. Whether it's a vehicle or an MC does not matter. Notice how the RAW is "a transport", so it applies to any variant of transport, be it monkey, pontoon boat, moped, or rickshaw

Now there seems to be some confusion over what a unit is, well here is what a unit is as described by the BRB

So a unit is defined as several models that fight as a group, and since the IC is a part of that unit, he is considered for all intents and purposes as that unit, unless other rules change that. An IC has separate rules regarding how they act during the course of the game and in CC, but there is only one unit there.


An Alpha warrior can join any unit(Not a MC), so long as the number of models does not exceed 20, and ride in a Mycetic Spore because it is considered a transport.

paidinfull wrote:That is so wrong on so many different levels it's astonishing.
You have this idea of "Salt and Sand" being two separate units, but if you pick them up you have a single unit comprised of two parts. A person is comprised of multiple separate parts, a head, a body, two arms, and two legs, etc. A person is considered singular as it is a sum of it's parts, or in this case one unit. You wouldn't say that a tactical squad comprised of a sgt, a meltgunner, and 3 regular marines is considered 3 or 5 units because they are all separate or different parts. It's one unit. When an IC joins a unit, they are now one unit.
That's not even RAW arguing... it's just... just common sense. 1+1 = 2, 2 is a single unit comprised of 2 parts: 1 & 1. They aren't separate while they are joined.
You're really just arguing for the sake of arguing now.
A spore is a transport so the following applies to it. Whether it's a vehicle or an MC does not matter. Notice how the RAW is "a transport", so it applies to any variant of transport, be it monkey, pontoon boat, moped, or rickshaw

Now there seems to be some confusion over what a unit is, well here is what a unit is as described by the BRB

So a unit is defined as several models that fight as a group, and since the IC is a part of that unit, he is considered for all intents and purposes as that unit, unless other rules change that. An IC has separate rules regarding how they act during the course of the game and in CC, but there is only one unit there.


An Alpha warrior can join any unit(Not a MC), so long as the number of models does not exceed 20, and ride in a Mycetic Spore because it is considered a transport.

I am a newb still learning the rules. With what I read here, I would say the Alpha Warrior can join any unit not exceeding 20 models. Now the quesiton is, can an Alpha Warrior join gaunt or gants? If not then the point is moot about the 20 model count. Also can Warriors take a Spod?

One thing to mention though, if you are going to post what you want us to read (wich I think is great by the way) you should put in page numbers so we can verify that you are in fact using the latest rules book or codex.

@davor
Yes an Alpha Warrior, because he is an IC can join any unit, that doesn't explicitly have a rule saying an IC cannot join them.

#page numbers
I hear ya but honestly, I've already provided the pertinent quote.

From my previous experience on the board I find that most discussions end up with someone simply not providing any quotes or references or support to their claims, what so ever and just continue saying "No because Gwar says so'. I feel that in the event someone doesn't agree with what I've posted they should take the time, do the leg work themselves and look up any rules that prove what I've provided wrong.

I still see no rule stating an attached IC and the squad are a single unit.

InquisitorFabius wrote:I still see no rule stating an attached IC and the squad are a single unit.

Any reference to an IC being "a part of a unit" clearly proves that an IC + squad = a unit.

If an IC + Squad were not considered a unit then an IC could never be "a part"of the unit.

Guess what, just an IC is a unit also.

Gwar! wrote:

paidinfull wrote:Right, when an IC joins a unit he is "a part" of that single unit.

No, he is joined to the unit. It is still 2 units.

Only during Close Combat, and only because it specifically states so. Both the definition of a unit and the rules for joining an IC indicate it becomes a single unit. In fact read the Close Combat section, final sentence of the second paragraph under "Independent Characters & Assaults" where it states:

BRB page 49 wrote:Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once against treated as normal members of the unit the y have joned

So, the English definition of "joined" requires they are one unit, and the rules state they are "normal members of the unit" - not a seperate unit at all.

On this one I believe you are incorrect, and the Alpha Nid can in fact join a unit of gaunts or warriors in a pod.

Hrm...I think we see some of the issue in Paid's text quote.

The transport rule states that it may carry "a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters...."

The Spod rules just say "a unit of 20 models or a Monstrous Creature."

If an IC (or multible IC's) joined to a unit were to be considered a single unit for the purpose of boarding a transport, why would they need to specify that IC's can ride with (the "and/or") another unit, and why did they not make that specification in the Spod rules?

Saldiven wrote:Hrm...I think we see some of the issue in Paid's text quote.

Gwars! point in relation to those is that the posted rules are about Transport Vehicles.

FYI.

The Spods are not Transport Vehicles.

Not saying that I agree, but the image leaves out the heading of the section.

I think paidinfull proved his argument pretty well. Now I think to the people who disaprove what paidinfull have said is to show (wich seems like alot of work, so we can see how much he strongly agrees to what he has said) or if you don't want to do that, tell us the page, paragraph and what book to prove your point.

If this was a court of law, paidinfull might win.

They did they made it a dedicated transport which provides the rules for it. The only "rules" applying to the Pod are a reiteration / clarification of disembarking.

@Saldiven

There doesn't need to be a specification made because it has already been made that it is a dedicated transport.

The best way I would say it is ; the tyranid codex doesnt say what a monstrous creature is you have to reference the basic rule book.

The Tyranid Codex states it is a Dedicated Transport ; refer to the rulebook.


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edit:

Also, Paindful did make a damn good argument.

I believe Gwar is right, there is a distinction between transport vehicles and dedicated transports. Namely that now we have some kind of dedicated transport that is not also a transport vehicle.

Hollismason wrote:
The Tyranid Codex states it is a Dedicated Transport ; refer to the rulebook.

So it is a vehicle?
See page 67, "Dedicated Transports".

All ducks have bills, a chicken has a bill there for it is a duck does not make a convincing argument.

It's a monstrous creature that is also a dedicated transport.

I cant believe this went on for 3 pages....... its pretty obvious that the spore pod is a Drop-Pod with wounds instead of armor. Are "certain people" so set on twisting the rules that work into something that will just cause arguments until GW has to put out another Errata to shut them up.

The facts have been shown.....RAI & RAW: the S-Pod is a freaking Drop-pod..........now play your games.

paidinfull wrote:
So a unit is defined as several models that fight as a group, and since the IC is a part of that unit, he is considered for all intents and purposes as that unit, unless other rules change that. An IC has separate rules regarding how they act during the course of the game and in CC, but there is only one unit there.

Honestly, I don't care who's right and wrong in this debate, however...

An independent character joins a unit, it does not necessarily say he becomes a part of that unit. For your example of the human body... when I put on mittens those mittens join my body, but they do not become a part of me. Or a pacemaker, if you want something a little more... attached. I guess you could argue that a prosthesis is a part of you, but I think most people would say that it is simply joined to you, but you are still two separate things.

Now, in regards to the rules. I've seen a number of locations where people say that cc is the only place that ICs act differently. That is actually not the case. They have special rules regarding joining and leaving units. This means that, in the movement phase, even though they are a part of the unit, they can act independently of it. A unit may never leave coherency. However, an IC must leave coherency with the unit in order to separate off.

What's more, there are other special rules for ICs besides just movement and assault. When an IC joins a unit that has different special rules, those special rules may or may not be conferred one way or the other. Look at all the SW questions dealing with Saga of the Hunter and Wolf Scouts. When an IC joins a unit, he most definitely has many rules that continue to govern him independently of said unit.

I don't see (and that doesn't mean that they do not exist) any rules that say that an IC actually becomes a part of the unit.

But by paidinfull's own admission via rulebook quote, the 40k Gods have deemed it necessary to say that a transport can carry a single unit "and/or any number of ICs." Why would they need to say this if, in fact, the two became one unit? Wouldn't it be obvious from the wording that "one unit" that the IC can be in the transport, given that as soon as he joins a unit they become one unit?

Also, I don't see anything in the posted definition of units that says that an IC that has joined a unit now count as one unit.

I see it like this: We know that ICs can join a unit, but that doesn't say "becomes part of." The IC maintains their unique rules that function during every turn (special rules), movement (for joining and leaving), and assault. The unit rules themselves don't mention anything about ICs, at least as far as has been posted. The rulebook itself adds that a single unit AND ICs can be inside of a transport, which implies that they are NOT one unit, otherwise why would it need to be said?

But then again... I see where it says that multiple ICs can join a unit and form a multi-character unit. In this case, it would seem that you are having multiple ICs that create one unit.

In summary, my post may be unclear, but I think we've got multiple definitions of the word unit going on.

DJ Illuminati wrote:I cant believe this went on for 3 pages....... its pretty obvious that the spore pod is a Drop-Pod with wounds instead of armor. Are "certain people" so set on twisting the rules that work into something that will just cause arguments until GW has to put out another Errata to shut them up.

The facts have been shown.....RAI & RAW: the S-Pod is a freaking Drop-pod..........now play your games.

i thought drop pods could only carry 12 models, not 20. And they have av 12 open topped, not feth gobs of wounds.

Eidolon wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:I cant believe this went on for 3 pages....... its pretty obvious that the spore pod is a Drop-Pod with wounds instead of armor. Are "certain people" so set on twisting the rules that work into something that will just cause arguments until GW has to put out another Errata to shut them up.

The facts have been shown.....RAI & RAW: the S-Pod is a freaking Drop-pod..........now play your games.

i thought drop pods could only carry 12 models, not 20. And they have av 12 open topped, not feth gobs of wounds.

So did I, but hey, don't let RULES get in the way of playing your game!

Saldiven wrote:
If an IC (or multible IC's) joined to a unit were to be considered a single unit for the purpose of boarding a transport, why would they need to specify that IC's can ride with (the "and/or") another unit, and why did they not make that specification in the Spod rules?

Nobody has answered this question yet.