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Okay, so this is a legitimate question, which apparently no one has sufficiently answered. If "Tyranids do not wield ccws" = rules regarding ccws don't apply to them, then I would like to know specifically which rules we are talking about and how they are different from normal models with ccws. The Tyranid codex gives us one, and at least one other has been mentioned in this thread. I'll start a nice list of them beginning with the first two.

1. Tyranids do not get +1 attack bonus for having two close combat weapons. (Normally models do get the bonus.)

2. Tyranids do not have to choose which special ccw they use in the current assault phase. (Normally models with 2 different special ccws have to choose which one they use.)

Are there other specific rules regarding ccws that don't apply to Tyranids?

Not that I can think of.

They stack.

Tyranid creatures do not wield close combat weapons as such, but rather slash at their opponents with their own teeth, claws, and talons. As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more then one close combat weapon - these bonuses are always included in the creature's profile.

GW worded it horribly to explain why they stack and some of you here made it even worse.

They stack per RAW because a Bone Sword, a Lash Whip, Scything Talons, and Rending Claws are different types of Tyranid's "...OWN TEETH, CLAWS, AND TALONS" that have their own added effects such as instant kills, lowering initiative, reroll hits, and rend.

That is why they do not "...WIELD CLOSE COMBATS AS SUCH,...." because a Bone Sword is a type of TOOTH/CLAW/TALON, a Lash Whip is a type of TOOTH/CLAW/TALON a Scything Talon is a type of TOOTH/CLAW/TALON, and a Rending Claw is a type of TOOTH/CLAW/TALON.

This explains why a Hive Tyrant with a Bone Sword and Lash Whip does not get an additional bonus attack for two CCW because he is attacking with a form of his teeth, claws, or talons which happen to take the shape of a Bone Sword and a Lash Whip, each with their own special abilities per the codex. Because they are not wielding close combat weapons (but instead using specialized teeth, claws, or talons), the rules for having to choosing which close combat weapon to use per the BRB do not apply.

Brother Ramses wrote:They stack.

Tyranid creatures do not wield close combat weapons as such, but rather slash at their opponents with their own teeth, claws, and talons. As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more then one close combat weapon - these bonuses are always included in the creature's profile.

...
This explains why a Hive Tyrant with a Bone Sword and Lash Whip does not get an additional bonus attack for two CCW because he is attacking with a form of his teeth, claws, or talons which happen to take the shape of a Bone Sword and a Lash Whip, each with their own special abilities per the codex. Because they are not wielding close combat weapons (but instead using specialized teeth, claws, or talons), the rules for having to choosing which close combat weapon to use per the BRB do not apply.

The first sentence in the quote from the Nid dex above is NOT meant to affect the game. It is simply an explanation for the game result. THE RESULT IS that Nids, never receive the +1 Attack Bonus. Only one bonus is mentioned, the Attack bonus. All other BGB Rules apply.

Deuce11 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:They stack.

Tyranid creatures do not wield close combat weapons as such, but rather slash at their opponents with their own teeth, claws, and talons. As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more then one close combat weapon - these bonuses are always included in the creature's profile.

...
This explains why a Hive Tyrant with a Bone Sword and Lash Whip does not get an additional bonus attack for two CCW because he is attacking with a form of his teeth, claws, or talons which happen to take the shape of a Bone Sword and a Lash Whip, each with their own special abilities per the codex. Because they are not wielding close combat weapons (but instead using specialized teeth, claws, or talons), the rules for having to choosing which close combat weapon to use per the BRB do not apply.

The first sentence in the quote from the Nid dex above is NOT meant to affect the game. It is simply an explanation for the game result. THE RESULT IS that Nids, never receive the +1 Attack Bonus. Only one bonus is mentioned, the Attack bonus. All other BGB Rules apply.

Lash Whips, Boneswords, Scything Talons, Rending Claws, and Crushing Claws are not special close combat weapons. The rules on page 42 of the rulebook do not apply to them.

Deuce11 wrote:The first sentence in the quote from the Nid dex above is NOT meant to affect the game.

Oh, apologies Robin. Glad you could sort us all out!

All other BGB Rules apply.

Which ones? Are scything talons a single-handed close combat weapon? A model with Scything talons and 2 Boneswords can use all 3 yes (no restriction prevents this)?

A model with scything talons, bonesword and lashwhip can likewise use all three. But a model with bonesword, lashwhip and say a Venom Cannon has to choose?

Just saying that one line of the rules doesn't have any effect on the game and claiming the next line is sacrosanct isn't a viable argument.

They never use close combat weapons therefore they never gain any bonuses for having special close combat weapons and they never have to choose between them.

That is the RaW. RaI is that they get the bonuses for simply being equiped with the weapon.

Dicta is not part of the rule.

Dicta refers to extraneous material which is merely informative or explanatory.

So RAW is "Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more then one close combat weapon - these bonuses are always included in the creature's profile." This means the A characteristic in the profile is never buffed by taking two CCWs. GW is telling us that this is the important part to look at. Its clear, concise, and written to affect game play.

Now if there is a CCW section separate and apart from a biomorph section, then there sure are CCWs in this new dex. The BGB requires that only one CCWs special characteristics be used when rolling the dice.

How do you know it's Dicta?

Dicta is not part of the rule.

Dicta refers to extraneous material which is merely informative or explanatory.

As Gwar says how do you know it is dicta? Who decides this? You?

You still haven't answered my question in regards to does a model with Lash whip, boneswords and scything talons have to choose? If so what rule are you using for that?

I'd appreciate it if you stayed out of my personal affairs, haha.

Through use of critical reading skills. The Dex's are all written in a pattern. GW gives some fluff in the rules section so that you can cinematically imagine what the special rules tweeks are doing to our toy soldiers. Then immediately following there is a clear, concise sentence or two describing how you should be representing the fluff during game play.

In this case, the one rule being articulated is that Nids don't benefit as other standard armies do by having more than one CCW. That is the only thing going on in this rule. And it is all that GW needed the player to take away from it from a rules perspective.

Deuce11 wrote:Now if there is a CCW section separate and apart from a biomorph section, then there sure are CCWs in this new dex. The BGB requires that only one CCWs special characteristics be used when rolling the dice.

There is one Close Combat Weapon in this codex - Claws and Teeth. The other weapons are merely biomorphs that have an effect on a Tyranid's close combat attacks.

FlingitNow wrote:
You still haven't answered my question in regards to does a model with Lash whip, boneswords and scything talons have to choose? If so what rule are you using for that?

SINCE there are no rules as of now that allow Nids to put into effect the special rules from multiple CCWs AND those things you listed are in a CCW section of the dex THEN without further information I would have to say that Nids do not benefit from stacking CCWs.

However, biomorphs are not CCWs and therefore a Nid player can stack as many biomorph special rules as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:Now if there is a CCW section separate and apart from a biomorph section, then there sure are CCWs in this new dex. The BGB requires that only one CCWs special characteristics be used when rolling the dice.

There is one Close Combat Weapon in this codex - Claws and Teeth. The other weapons are merely biomorphs that have an effect on a Tyranid's close combat attacks.

Not according to the info in this thread. There has been a lot of back and forth, but I am under the impression that in the 5th Ed. Dex there is a separate section for CCWs and another for biomorphs. If that is untrue then the discussion is much more difficult. Can someone clarify, please?

The BGB requires that only one CCWs special characteristics be used when rolling the dice.

Where is this rule? It is certainly not in my BRB, maybe yours is different. Please point me to the page and quote the rule?

I can find a rule that states if you are armed with exactly 2 single-handed weapons you have to choose between them but nothing regarding multi-handed weapons and having 3 or more weapons. Please point to the rule covering this eventually (I bet you can't).

TYRANIDS DO NOT HAVE MULTIPLE CCWS

None of the five pieces of wargear that you think are CCWs are CCWs. Nowhere in their description are they called CCWs. In addition, their effects apply simply by having the wargear - the verb used is "with", not "using" or "armed", so even if they were close combat weapons, their effects would still stack.

There really isn't anything more to say on the matter.

None of the five pieces of wargear that you think are CCWs are CCWs.

Please remind me what heading they are under in the Tyranid wargear section?

FlingitNow wrote:

The BGB requires that only one CCWs special characteristics be used when rolling the dice.

Where is this rule? It is certainly not in my BRB, maybe yours is different. Please point me to the page and quote the rule?

I can find a rule that states if you are armed with exactly 2 single-handed weapons you have to choose between them but nothing regarding multi-handed weapons and having 3 or more weapons. Please point to the rule covering this eventually (I bet you can't).

With all due respect, comments like these don't further the debate at all. I'm not quoting rules because the book is not in front of me but everyone knows what I am alluding to.
Please mind the tone. Not because there are penalties but because it helps engage better dialogue.

What is dicta?

Deuce11 wrote:The first sentence in the quote from the Nid dex above is NOT meant to affect the game. It is simply an explanation for the game result. THE RESULT IS that Nids, never receive the +1 Attack Bonus. Only one bonus is mentioned, the Attack bonus. All other BGB Rules apply.

That is what I was getting at with the question about what ccw rules from the BRB apply/don't apply to Tyranids. There seems to be two rules, but the Tyranid codex only addresses the rule about getting +1 attack for having two ccws. "As a result" tells us which of the two rules are affected. Tyranids don't get +1 attack because the Tyranid codex says they don't, but it does not address the second rule about "stacking" abilities of special ccws, therefore that rule remains in place, meaning they have to choose which weapon to use.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Lash Whips, Boneswords, Scything Talons, Rending Claws, and Crushing Claws are not special close combat weapons. The rules on page 42 of the rulebook do not apply to them.

And items listed under Ranged Weapons aren't really ranged weapons, items listed under Armor aren't really armor, up is down, and left is right. Yeah, let's just start redefining things how we see fit and pay no attention to the section labels that items appear under.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:TYRANIDS DO NOT HAVE MULTIPLE CCWS

None of the five pieces of wargear that you think are CCWs are CCWs. Nowhere in their description are they called CCWs.
There really isn't anything more to say on the matter.

Boneswords: Boneswords are living blades of chitin that continuously grow to repair any damage and maintain a monomolecular edge....Boneswords crackle with psychic energy and they can drain the life-force of their victims.

From it's description, and the section that it is listed under, "Close Combat Weapons," boneswords sound like ccws to me.

Crushing claws: These massive crab-like claws are only ever found on the largest of Tyranid organisms, the only creatures that are capable of hefting the enormous bulk. The obscene strength of the claws allows them to tear apart an armored bastion....A Tyranid with crushing claws gains an extra D3 attacks...."

Sounds like a ccw weapon to me. I mean, demon weapons give a model D6 extra attacks....

And I could do the same with the other Tyranid ccws as well, as they all are ccws.

In addition, their effects apply simply by having the wargear - the verb used is "with", not "using" or "armed", so even if they were close combat weapons, their effects would still stack.

And as has been brought up already in this discussion, lightning claws have similar wording, which, if not for the rule about having to choose which ccw to use, the re-roll ability of the lightning claw would apply when using a powerfist, as one does not have to be actively using the lightning claw in order to get a re-roll. So that argument is basically negated.

"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat"

As the Tyranids do not need to use special close combat weapons, in any case the issue is null.

Lord_Mortis wrote:lightning claws have similar wording

You can stop there.
"Lightning claws are commonly used" is the first part of the Lightning claws section.
When used, the effects occur.

kirsanth wrote:"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat"

As the Tyranids do not need to use special close combat weapons, in any case the issue is null.

I don't see that listed under affected rules in the "As a result" part of the Tyranid Close Combat Weapons on page 33...

You can stop there.
"Lightning claws are commonly used" is the first part of the Lightning claws section.
When used, the effects occur.

And if one prooftexts as you have, we could come up with all sort of crazy ideas....

Geesh!

When a hive tyrant is using his bone sword and lash whip he is using his own SPECIALIZED teeth, claws, and talons.

That is why he doesn't get a +1 attack bonus for using both of them and why he does not have to choose which one to choose. He is not wielding two ccw per the BRB because the first line in the rule states that they do not wield close combat weapons.

As I said, badly worded by GW and using the title of Close Combat Weapons only further confuses.

I can only guess that they titled it CCW so people would not try and combine rending claws with a venom cannon for instance by saying that since the abilities stack in close combat, why can't they stack in shooting.

As someone else pointed out, how about trying to see how many game mechanics this breaks by not allowing them to stack?

FlingitNow wrote:

None of the five pieces of wargear that you think are CCWs are CCWs.

Please remind me what heading they are under in the Tyranid wargear section?

The heading is completely meaningless, other than as in an organizational function.

There is a rule and a consequence to that rule

The RULE is that they do not use CCW.

As a result they can never get +1 attack - that is the consequence.

You cannot say one is dicta when it very clearly describes a rule.

Brother Ramses wrote:Geesh!

When a hive tyrant is using his bone sword and lash whip he is using his own SPECIALIZED teeth, claws, and talons.

That is why he doesn't get a +1 attack bonus for using both of them

Exactly right! The Tyranid codex specifically addresses this.

and why he does not have to choose which one to choose.

Exactly wrong. The Tyranid codex fails to address this at all.

He is not wielding two ccw per the BRB because the first line in the rule states that they do not wield close combat weapons.

And if "they do not wield ccws" = "none of the ccw rules apply" then there is no need to address the +1 attack bonus. If you are saying they don't need to choose a ccw due to the first line in the rule, then accordingly, the first line in the rule also addresses the +1 attack bonus and so there is no need to address it. Yet, the "As a result" part specifically states which ccw rules from the BRB are affected, and that is the +1 attack bonus. You are reading more into the rules than what the rules address.

Lord_Mortis wrote:And if "they do not wield ccws" = "none of the ccw rules apply" then there is no need to address the +1 attack bonus. If you are saying they don't need to choose a ccw due to the first line in the rule, then accordingly, the first line in the rule also addresses the +1 attack bonus and so there is no need to address it.

This is incorrect. CCW rules do apply. Tyranids use their claws and teeth. Another reason the +1 issue is also there is to let us know that the claws and teeth are 1 CCW, not 2.
As for chosing a CCW, there is no choice.

The +1 attack bonus exclusion is there specifically to disallow a player from saying that teeth, claws, and talons attacks + bone sword/lash whip = a bonus attack. Teeth/claws/talons and bone sword/lash whip are one and the same.

The first line that they do not wield CCWs still stands as an all encompassing rule because it specifically states that tyranids attack with their teeth, claws, and talons.

So if a hive tyrant is attacking with a bone sword and a lash whip, he is in reality attacking with his teeth, claws, and talons. Not ccws. Since he is not attacking with ccws, he is therefore not required to choose which weapon he is attacking with per the BRB.

I would say that you are the one not reading the rules at all. You see CCW and immediately forget about the teeth, claws, and talons entry and run straight to the BRB to prove your half thought out theory.

There is RAW here and it has RAI to support it.

I wouldn't normally jump in on something this convoluted and, honestly, kind of heated, in a first post, but I think I've got a couple interesting things to add.

I think DeuceII is right about the first line in question on page 33: it's not supposed to be a rule, just a fluffy justification for the rule that follows. I have three reasons for this:

1. It follows the pattern set by all the other entries in that section of the book. Every other one ("Tyranid Psykers," "Synapse Creature," Shadow in the Warp," "Instinctive Behaviour," even "Lurk" and "Feed") start with 1-2 sentences of fluff. Surely nobody will argue that the second sentence under "Tyranid Psykers" is supposed to be a rule: "[Tyranid creatures] do not draw power from the Warp in any fathomable way, but rather they harness a fraction of the Hive Mind's gestalt will." In fact, the very next line says that that little bit of fluff makes no difference for game purposes!

2. The line after the disputed one reads, as has been quoted several times, "As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more than one close combat weapon - these bonuses are always included in the creature's profile." Now, if the preceding line were meant as a rule, it would be obvious that Tyranids never got a bonus for fighting with two close combat weapons, because they could never have two close combat weapons - they couldn't even have one!

3. The entry for "Claws and Teeth" on page 83 says the model counts as having a normal close combat weapon. If we read the line on page 33 as a rule, then the entry for "Claws and Teeth" flatly contradicts it. They can't wield close combat weapons, but having claws and teeth makes them count as having a close combat weapon. Maybe, MAYBE you could argue that with claws and teeth the models counts as having a close combat weapon, but doesn't REALLY have it, or that it has one, but can't wield it. As others have mentioned, though, that contradicts widely accepted interpretations of rules in the main rulebook, and probably other codeces too.

The first two points might seem like RAI arguments, rather than RAW ones, but in this case we're not actually arguing about the rules yet: we're arguing about which parts of the book even ARE rules. I think you have to look at the writer's intent for that, so context matters.

Based on that, I don't think the various weapons stack, RAW. However, RAI, they certainly do, and that's the way I'll play it.

Finally, you might get away with claiming that the lash whip and bonesword stack, because in the actual unit entries they occur on the same line, i.e. as part of the same bullet. As far as I know, they're the only pair of weapons that do so, so you might argue that they are in fact one weapon, with separate entries in the Weapons and Biomorphs section for convenience: two boneswords do something very similar to one half of the lash whip and bonesword, and presumably lashwhips (which the Venomthrope has) does the same thing as the other half.

Whew, long first post. Sorry about that.

kirsanth wrote:This is incorrect. CCW rules do apply. Tyranids use their claws and teeth. Another reason the +1 issue is also there is to let us know that the claws and teeth are 1 CCW, not 2.
As for chosing a CCW, there is no choice.

If Tyranids do not use ccws, per the "Tyranids do not wield ccw" sentence, then they do not ever gain +1 attack, so there is no reason to include the "As a result" section.

Brother Ramses wrote:The +1 attack bonus exclusion is there specifically to disallow a player from saying that teeth, claws, and talons attacks + bone sword/lash whip = a bonus attack. Teeth/claws/talons and bone sword/lash whip are one and the same.

The first line that they do not wield CCWs still stands as an all encompassing rule because it specifically states that tyranids attack with their teeth, claws, and talons.

As above. If the first line is all encompassing, and means that Tyranids do not wield ccws, then there is no reason to include the "As a result" part, as you only get +1 attack for using a 2 ccws, and as has been argued, Tyranids do not use ccws. It does not matter if a player wanted to say teeth and claws count as a ccw, as the sentence says they do not wield ccws, and therefore would not get +1 attack.

Unless of course this is the only rule regarding ccws that the first sentence is addressing in the "As a result" part. I listed two ccw rules, and the Tyranid codex is only addressing one.

Lord_Mortis wrote:If Tyranids do not use ccws, per the "Tyranids do not wield ccw" sentence, then they do not ever gain +1 attack, so there is no reason to include the "As a result" section.

They add the "as a result" part because 99% of the playerbase are utter idiots. Notice how it does not say "The ONLY result".