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This question has recently surfaced. Apparently the former codex stated that Tyranid ccws worked in conjunction together but this is not in print in the new codex. I have provided an example using an Alpha Warrior in the poll. The Alpha Warrior is armed with a bone sword and lash whip. If Tyranid ccws work in conjunction together then the Alpha Warrior would both ignore armor saves and reduce enemy models in b2b contact to I1. If they work separately then the Alpha Warrior would have to choose between the two.

I'm certain that this will be addressed in the next release of the INAT FAQ and would like to discuss this here.

G

From my Unofficial Tyranid FAQ v1.0 (link in the sig):

TYR.83.01 – Q: Do Tyranid models with more than one Non-Normal Close Combat Weapon have to choose which one to benefit from each turn or do they always benefit from their effects?

A: Tyranid models armed with more than one Non-Normal Close Combat Weapon have attacks that always benefit from every close combat weapon they have. This is because, as per page 33, “Tyranids do not wield Close Combat Weapons”. Furthermore, each Close Combat Weapon Biomorph has wording that makes it clear that the Tyranid themselves has the effect, not the weapon. For example, Crushing Claws states “A Tyranid with crushing claws gains” as opposed to “A Tyranid using crushing claws gains”. This essentially means that the Close Combat Weapon Biomorphs “stack”, so (for example) a model with Scything Talons and Rending Claws will benefit from both the re-roll effect and the rending effect with each of it's attacks. [Clarification]
• It can, however, be interpreted that Tyranid Models with more than one Non-Normal Close Combat Weapon must choose which one to use each turn, even if armed with “passive” close combat weapons like Lash Whips, and can only benefit from a single one in a turn.

I can't read the blue text as it heavily blends into the background.

G


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Gwar! wrote:
Q: Do Tyranid models with more than one Non-Normal Close Combat Weapon have to choose which one to benefit from each turn or do they always benefit from their effects?

A: Tyranid models armed with more than one Non-Normal Close Combat Weapon have attacks that always benefit from every close combat weapon they have. This is because, as per page 33, “Tyranids do not wield Close Combat Weapons”. Furthermore, each Close Combat Weapon Biomorph has wording that makes it clear that the Tyranid themselves has the effect, not the weapon. For example, Crushing Claws states “A Tyranid with crushing claws gains” as opposed to “A Tyranid using crushing claws gains”. This essentially means that the Close Combat Weapon Biomorphs “stack”, so (for example) a model with Scything Talons and Rending Claws will benefit from both the re-roll effect and the rending effect with each of it's attacks.

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I fixed it for you Gwar. The reference to page 33 of the new codex is very useful.

G

Sorry about that.

While I understand the inferred meaning of Tyranid CCW's, the method they are presented in the codex with is their own flaw.

One page says they do not have CCW's as such, then another page gives special types of CCW's available to them.

Now for the statement of Using vs With. For my example I am going to ignore the rules for special weapons stacking from the main rule book.

I can have a SM armed/equipped with a power fist. He is both Using and he is with a power fist.

This is why I am completely on the fence about how they interact with the rules.

InquisitorFabius wrote:I can have a SM armed/equipped with a power fist. He is both Using and he is with a power fist.

Do the rules for power fists give him an ability just for having it (like Nid CCWs do) or does it only work when he uses it in a Close combat?

The same can be asked of a Tyranid with a bio-morph.


The answer is no.

Please understand I am not arguing to argue. I fully feel they should stack as they did in previous editions. The language is what I have a problem with.

InquisitorFabius wrote:The same can be asked of a Tyranid with a bio-morph.

The answer is no.

Please understand I am not arguing to argue. I fully feel they should stack as they did in previous editions. The language is what I have a problem with.

The thing is, the Tyranid one doesn't have to be used. Just by having it, the effect applies to any attacks they make, even if they don't use the Close Combat Biomorph to make those attacks.

Here is a new proposal, how does a Lash whip work if charging a unit in cover if the lash equipped charging unit has no offensive grenades?

Both models strike at I1. How is that ambiguous?

Yeah both units would hit at I1.

G

Simply *having* the biomorph grants the 'nid the extra ability.

Charing into cover without grenades? Both sides strike at I1

Gwar! wrote:

InquisitorFabius wrote:The same can be asked of a Tyranid with a bio-morph.

The answer is no.

Please understand I am not arguing to argue. I fully feel they should stack as they did in previous editions. The language is what I have a problem with.

The thing is, the Tyranid one doesn't have to be used. Just by having it, the effect applies to any attacks they make, even if they don't use the Close Combat Biomorph to make those attacks.

By the same logic, then simply having a lightning claw should allow my powerfist to reroll any failed to wound rolls. The lightning claw entry in the 40k rulebook doesn't say a model has to actually use it, it just says it allows the model to reroll failed to wound rolls. But there exists a rule that prevents such stacking. And the last two Tyranid books had very specific wording that said their close combat symbiotes/biomorph abilities stacked. Again, it was very specific wording, and in the latest Tyranid book, it is missing. So a rules change, or a major oversight?

The only CCW in the entire Tyranid codex is Claws and Teeth, and the only models that have that don't have access to the pieces of close combat wargear.

A lightning claw is defined as a special power weapon, which is a special CCW, so it has to follow the CCW rules. Boneswords, Rending Claws, and the like are not defined as CCWs, so they are not bound by CCW rules.

All of the Tyranid CCW are labeled under a big heading on page 83 that says, "Close Combat Weapons". However, you don't "use" lash whips or rending claws. It's not like you're attacking with your bonesword -or- your rending claws.

Rending claws simply state: "Close combat attacks made by models with rending claws gain the rending ability." It doesn't say you're using rending claws - it confers the rending rule. Same thing with the lash whip. You're not "using" the lash whip, it simply confers the ability to the model that "any enemy model in base contact with a Tyranid counts their initiative value as 1."

These are simply close combat weapons that don't really do anything but add bonuses to the model. While they're called "Close Combat weapons" - they aren't really "used". Not even boneswords. It doesn't say "a hit from a bonesword" - it says "No armour saves may be taken in close combat by a TYRANID with a bonesword."

No mention of him actually even "using" the bonesword. I mean, I could go on and on - but each entry on page 83 makes no mention of using the biomorphs as weapons, rather the weapons affecting how the tyranid strikes in close combat.

It's just like a lightning claws that are also rending (Shrike). You don't choose power or rending - it does both.

If you have rending claws and scything talons, the bonuses you'd receive are:

Rending claws - the model's CC attacks count as rending

and

Scything Talons - a model with a single set of scything talons re-rolls any To Hit rolls of 1 in a close combat.

If you were allowed to have a lash whip too, then any enemy in base contact with you would strike at Init 1.

Furthermore, tyranids never gain any attacks from more or less "weapons". These weapons don't affect their attack value. It's because they're more of biomorphs and, according to page 33, "Tyranids do not wield close combat weapons as such. . ."

Actually the Tyranids are attacking with "claws and teeth" - as per page 33.
As per page 83, model equiped with the biomorphs listed in the section "Close Combat Weapons" get bonus to those attacks, as listed. None of them require being used.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The only CCW in the entire Tyranid codex is Claws and Teeth, and the only models that have that don't have access to the pieces of close combat wargear.

A lightning claw is defined as a special power weapon, which is a special CCW, so it has to follow the CCW rules. Boneswords, Rending Claws, and the like are not defined as CCWs, so they are not bound by CCW rules.

Follow me, if you will, on a trip down memory lane....

3rd Edition Tyranid Codex: Rending claws, lash whips, etc., are called "close combat symbiotes" instead of "close combat weapons" yet they had a rule that stated "...a Tyranid creature can use all of its close combat symbiotes in an assault phase and is not only limited to using one at a time like most models."

4th Edition Tyranid Codex: Rending claws, lash whips, etc., are called "close combat biomorphs" instead of "close combat weapons" yet they had a rule that stated "Close combat biomorphs can only be used during an assault. A Tyranid creature can use all of its close combat biomorphs in an assault and is not limited to using one at a time like most models."

Your argument is that they aren't defined as "close combat weapons" so if that is the case, why the rules stating that they get to stack their abilities?

5th Edition Tyranid Codex: Rending claws, lash whips, etc., are called "Close Combat Weapons" and this time there is no rule as in the previous two books that says their abilities stack. If in the 5th edition codex they were labeled as symbiotes or biomorphs, then I could see your argument as then they aren't defined as "close combat weapons." There were a lot of changes made in this codex. Just because something worked one way for the previous two doesn't mean that is the case now....






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In addition, there is also another section in the 5th edition book called "Biomorph Upgrades." One of them is "implant attack" that can be used in close combat. Why is it not listed with boneswords, lash whips, etc., if those are just "biomorphs?" It is not listed with them because those are all close combat weapons and implant attack is a biomorph, thus a difference exists.

Except there is a rule on page 33 which states they only ever attack with "teeth and claws" and that the biomorphs are NOT defined as CCW.

So they stack, as they all define that the Tyranid with X obtains not abailty. "With" is not the same as "uses"

I do not care what the old codex said. The new one does not say they are CCWs, so they are not CCWs. The combat upgrades are more akin to SM digital weapons or an Ork attack squig.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:I do not care what the old codex said. The new one does not say they are CCWs, so they are not CCWs. The combat upgrades are more akin to SM digital weapons or an Ork attack squig.

Exactly. You can call them what you like. You can call them Close Combat Weapons all day if you want to. They're still not "using" them. On page 83, where all the weapons are listed, the weapons all confer abilities or bonuses. None of them mention the use of any of them as a weapon at any time.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except there is a rule on page 33 which states they only ever attack with "teeth and claws" and that the biomorphs are NOT defined as CCW.

So they stack, as they all define that the Tyranid with X obtains not abailty. "With" is not the same as "uses"

Yeah, that is just a fluff reason to explain why a termagant, who obviously has teeth and claws on both hands, doesn't get +1 attack for having two close combat weapons (teeth and claws, or claws on 2+ arms). Just like the fluff reasons for why Mutants count as being armed with only one close combat weapon and Zombies with their "grasping hands and slavering jaws" count as having 2 close combat weapons in their respective Apocalypse Datasheets.

Besides, starting with page 81, the rules state there are weapons and biomorphs, and then breaks that down into ranged weapons, close combat weapons, and then biomorphs. How weapons in the close combat weapons section of the rules don't count as weapons but really are biomorphs but they aren't listed in the biomorphs section with the other biomorphs is really beyond me....

They still arent CCWs, are not special CCWs and simply require the 'nid to possess them to gain the benefits.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:I do not care what the old codex said. The new one does not say they are CCWs, so they are not CCWs. The combat upgrades are more akin to SM digital weapons or an Ork attack squig.

Except that an attack squig is listed in the "other equipment" section instead of the "weapons" section, and we don't know if digital weapons are true close combat weapons or not as all SM close combat and ranged weapons are listed under one section called "weapons." As with "implant attack" just because something grants an ability in close combat doesn't mean it is a close combat weapon. But weapons listed under a section called "close combat weapons" kinda points us in the direction that they are close combat weapons....


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nosferatu1001 wrote:They still arent CCWs, are not special CCWs and simply require the 'nid to possess them to gain the benefits.

Okay then. I will leave you to your world of where things listed under the section "close combat weapons" aren't really close combat weapons, but really are just biomorphs....I guess lightning claws aren't special close combat weapons either because "special close combat weapon" is not listed in its description, nor does it state in its description that one has to actually use the lightning claw to gain the reroll, even though it is listed under a section called "special close combat weapons" just like boneswords are listed under a section called "close combat weapons."

...but they are listed in the BRB as special CCW, and therefore *are* special CCW.

In addition it doesnt even matter if they ARE CCW, As it does not state a Tyranid ATTACKING with a Bone Sword ignores aremour saves, it states a Tyranid WITH them benefits.

This is the part you have yet to deal with....at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:...but they are listed in the BRB as special CCW, and therefore *are* special CCW.

In addition it doesnt even matter if they ARE CCW, As it does not state a Tyranid ATTACKING with a Bone Sword ignores aremour saves, it states a Tyranid WITH them benefits.

This is the part you have yet to deal with....at all.

Oh but I have...."with" has been used the same way in the previous two Tyranid books as it is in the current one. Yet both of the previous books had a rule that allowed the abilities to stack. So if "with" is the same now as it was then, which you think means simply having the weapon grants the ability and not having to actually use it, then why a specific rule that has to state that the abilities stack when they weren't even labeled "close combat weapons" but now that they are actually labeled close combat weapons there is no specific rule? They stacked previously because there was a rule that allowed them to stack, but you are saying they still stack despite no rule that specifically says they do now even though they used the same "with" terminology in the previous two books.

You assume the previous rule wasnt redundant, therefore you have *not* addressed this - you have commited a logical fallacy. You have not proven a need for the rule in the current OR previous codexes, you have assumed a need.

If you pick up the current codex it clearly indicates they stack. No additional rule is necessary.

Lord_Mortis wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:...but they are listed in the BRB as special CCW, and therefore *are* special CCW.

In addition it doesnt even matter if they ARE CCW, As it does not state a Tyranid ATTACKING with a Bone Sword ignores aremour saves, it states a Tyranid WITH them benefits.

This is the part you have yet to deal with....at all.

Oh but I have...."with" has been used the same way in the previous two Tyranid books as it is in the current one. Yet both of the previous books had a rule that allowed the abilities to stack. So if "with" is the same now as it was then, which you think means simply having the weapon grants the ability and not having to actually use it, then why a specific rule that has to state that the abilities stack when they weren't even labeled "close combat weapons" but now that they are actually labeled close combat weapons there is no specific rule? They stacked previously because there was a rule that allowed them to stack, but you are saying they still stack despite no rule that specifically says they do now even though they used the same "with" terminology in the previous two books.

Actually, let's look at the last Codex versus this one.

Scything Talons (old edition): Tyranid Creatures with scything talons count as having two close combat weapons and so gain +1 Attack.

Scything Talons (new edition): A Tyranid model with a single set of scything talons rerolls any to-hit rolls in close combat.

One distinguishes a "close combat weapon". The other does not. The first one is a close combat weapon and, if you get another one, you get +2 attacks. The second one simply modifies the way the tyranid attacks. The first one says: A tyranid with X counts as having a close combat weapon that does Y. The second one simply says, a tyranid model with X gets Y.

What you're not getting is the weapon, whether you use it or not, is affecting the Tyranid. The tyranid's profile is basically changed. The creature itself has rending attacks because he has rending claws, not the other way around. The claws aren't rending, the creature is because he has them. Just like the Lash whip isn't being "used". You don't have to roll to hit - it simply affects anyone in base contact with it.

Imagine it this way: When you buy Rending Claws and a Lash Whip, instead of imagining the creature armed with anything at all - imagine the creature gaining a USR: Rending and a USR: Lash Whip. It still has its same number of attacks regardless of what it is carrying, because the weapons it is carrying are modifiers to the way it attacks.

Edit: Also, it is important to note that in the last codex, they had to distinguish the fact that if a tyranid had more than one close combat weapon, it could use both of them in a combat. The reason that they're not distinguishing in this codex is because you're not "using" the close combat weapon to attack, rather you're using the close combat weapon to alter the way you attack.

I just thought it might be useful to get some exact wordings.

BGB pg 42 wrote:
Power Weapons
[snip] Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armour saves.

Lightning Claws
[snip] A lightning claw is a power weapon and it also allows the wielder to re-roll any failed roll to wound.

Enjoy the slight ambiguity (most other weapons are 'as a power weapon plus some other stuff' and so don't contribute much)

Orkestra wrote:I just thought it might be useful to get some exact wordings.

BGB pg 42 wrote:
Power Weapons
[snip] Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armour saves.

Lightning Claws
[snip] A lightning claw is a power weapon and it also allows the wielder to re-roll any failed roll to wound.

Enjoy the slight ambiguity (most other weapons are 'as a power weapon plus some other stuff' and so don't contribute much)

Here's another way to look at it:

Let's say I have Scything Talons and Rending Claws. And let's go with the theory that all Tyranid Close Combat weapons are "special weapons" and therefore, you must choose which one you use. I choose to use the Scything Talons. So, I can re-roll my To hit rolls of 1.

Great. Now, I look at the Rending Claws rule. It simply states, "Close combat attacks made by models with rending claws gain the Rending ability."

Okay, I hit with my scything talons. I reroll my 1's. Now, are those close combat attacks? Yes. Does my model have rending claws, even though he didn't use them? Yes. Can a model with rending claws count their attacks as rending? Yes.

Therefore, my scything talon's attacks are rending. Why? Because I didn't have to use Rending claws to obtain the bonus. I get the bonus simply by having the claws.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You assume the previous rule wasnt redundant, therefore you have *not* addressed this - you have commited a logical fallacy. You have not proven a need for the rule in the current OR previous codexes, you have assumed a need.

If you pick up the current codex it clearly indicates they stack. No additional rule is necessary.

Sigh. I believe I have when I replied to this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:...but they are listed in the BRB as special CCW, and therefore *are* special CCW.

In addition it doesnt even matter if they ARE CCW, As it does not state a Tyranid ATTACKING with a Bone Sword ignores aremour saves, it states a Tyranid WITH them benefits.

This is the part you have yet to deal with....at all.

The BRB has lightning claws listed under "special close combat weapons." They are therefore special close combat weapons. We agree on this.

The Tyranid Codex lists Boneswords under "Close Combat Weapons" just like lightning claws are listed under "special close combat weapons." However, for some reason you don't think a Bonesword is a close combat weapon but a lightning claw is a special close combat weapon.

Again, the rules for lightning claws doesn't say a model attacking with a lightning claw gets to reroll failed to wound rolls. The model just has to wield it. Just like a Tyranid with Boneswords only has to have them with him. Both the model with the lightning claw and the Tyranid with the boneswords can use their foot to fight their enemies, both gain the abilities confered by the weapon.

The definition of a special close combat weapon, according to the BRB is: "...complex and powerful weapons that enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using them. The most widely used are listed below." Then it goes on to list power weapons, lightning claws, etc. These aren't the only special weapons, just the most widely used. So basically, a special close combat weapon is any close combat weapon that confers extra abilities to the model using it. A bonesword is listed under "Close Combat Weapons" in the new Tyranid codex. It has special abilities that it confers upon the model that has it that a normal close combat weapon, which in the Tyranid codex is claws and teeth, doesn't have. Thus, by the BRB definition, a Bonesword, and any other weapon listed in the Tyranid codex under "Close Combat Weapons" that has a special ability, is a special weapon. An implant attack, while it does give an ability in close combat, is not listed under Close Combat Weapons and is therefore not a weapon, but a biomorph. It may therefore be used in addition to the abilities of Tyranid close combat weapons.

According to the BRB, models with two special weapons must choose which one to use in the assault phase. Previous Tyranid books had a rule that allowed them to stack their weapons. The new codex lacks such a rule. Are boneswords and lashwhips close combat weapons? According to the Tyranid rulebook they are. Do they have extra abilities that normal close combat weapons do not? Yes they do. Does that make them special weapons according to the BRB? Yes it does. Do Tyranids have a special rule in the new book that allows them to stack abilities as in the past books? No they don't. Must they choose which special close combat weapon they are going to use in each assault? Yes they do.