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rubiksnoob wrote:In relation to the ethical reasons of eating meat:
Yeah it's the natural order of things and all but, if we have the means to survive without taking another creature's life why kill them if we don't truly need to?

Because they taste AWESOME.

LunaHound wrote:However , you are not a true vegetarian unless you also leave garlic and onion out.

Wait... huh?

LunaHound wrote:But now , we have antibiotics , growth hormons , preservatives , all mixed into the meat ...

I cant agree to say its a good idea anymore.

Some of the stuff they use on the veggies isn't so hot either.

Ketara wrote:I'm a meat eater. It's what me and my system were programmed to do. However, I have morality. That's something my brain was programmed to do. I'd LIKE good health. So that's how I arrange my diet.

In other words, I buy organic and free range. That might be a chicken sitting on my dinner plate, but I'm happy because

a)I know it was a happy chicken
b)I know it hasn't been pumped full of chemicals so it won't harm me
c)It tastes dayum good!

Continuing with the chicken example, I find my happy chickens actually taste better than not-happy chickens. The reason for this is that they haven't been pumped with chemicals throughout their lives, and they weren't injected with half a litre of water after they died to make them look bigger and weigh more.

I strongly suggest that you investigate what constitutes organic and free range, legally speaking. When it comes to free range the only requirement put forth by the USDA is that the livestock be given access to the outdoors every day. There are no requirements on the amount of time or how that access is provided. Therefore opening a small door on the side of a large coop for 3 minutes once a day constitutes a "free-range" bird. Also, while the animals cannot be kept in cages there are no requirements on the size, shape, and animal density in their pens. Organic only really means what you think it does if 1) the product is not processed (if it is then it can contain up to 5% by weight non-organic materials) 2) It says 100% organic, and there are exceptions with a large number of materials most wouldn't consider to actually be "organic" on an approved by the FDA list.

I'm a practicing omnivore. I've gone hunting many times. Deer, turkey, wild hogs, pretty much anything that's tasty in the south eastern US I've put a bullet in, dressed, butchered, and ate. Lemme tell you, nothing tastes quite as good as an animal you shot and dressed yourself. I have a bit of a personal conviction that when I go hunting or fishing I'm not looking for trophies, I'm looking for food. I don't shoot or pull anything out on a line I don't intend to make good use of. I dunno, maybe I'm dead inside but I never really got it when it came to vegetarians. If that's how you want to eat, more power to you I just never got it.

I strongly suggest that you investigate what constitutes organic and free range, legally speaking.

I buy from a local butchers who assures me most stringently that the chickens are happy, coming from a relatively local farm(since I'm in the countryside). I've never bothered to check it out myself, but I've been told I could any time I wished.

As to what constitutes organic, when it comes to vegetables, there is actually a definition on what is organic. You cannot have used any chemicals in a field for 5 years before the veg grown there can be called organic. With regards to my happy chickens, it means that they cannot be pumped with growth enhancing steroids, and similar chemical cocktails. A small degree of preservatives during processing, certainly, but no worse than that.

So you leave my Happy chickens alone!

rubiksnoob wrote:In relation to the ethical reasons of eating meat:
Yeah it's the natural order of things and all but, if we have the means to survive without taking another creature's life why kill them if we don't truly need to?

If it can be eaten to sustain our life, it has to be, or have been, alive at some point. We can't survive on inert matter. Try going a week on just dirt and rocks and see how it works out. You can't get around extinguishing life to sustain it.

Ketara wrote:I buy from a local butchers who assures me most stringently that the chickens are happy,

Sorry, but every time you say this I laugh at the absurdity.

I've never bothered to check it out myself, but I've been told I could any time I wished.

I'd suggest you do. It's very easy to make a claim and then say, "And you can verify it at any time." Sounds wonderful and on the up and up... but how man people pursue it beyond that? The overwhelming majority never will, which makes it something suppliers can say with little risk to themselves.

Tyyr wrote:

Ketara wrote:I buy from a local butchers who assures me most stringently that the chickens are happy,

Sorry, but every time you say this I laugh at the absurdity.

I've never bothered to check it out myself, but I've been told I could any time I wished.

I'd suggest you do. It's very easy to make a claim and then say, "And you can verify it at any time." Sounds wonderful and on the up and up... but how man people pursue it beyond that? The overwhelming majority never will, which makes it something suppliers can say with little risk to themselves.

I love the fact that you automatically assume that my chickens aren't happy. Do you know the butcher or the farm? Do you know the chickens in question? Have you spoken to them? Maybe your local chickens aren't happy, or you've read an internet/government poll saying that chickens in general aren't happy, but I'm more inclined to believe the fact that mine are. Why?

Because there are many tell tale physical signs of an intensively farmed chicken, from burning around the ankles from the poo they end up wading in, to the way they deflate in the oven. All physical and practical evidence points to my chickens being very happy chickens.

Ketara wrote:I love the fact that you automatically assume that my chickens aren't happy.

I find it interesting that you automatically assume I assume the chickens aren't happy. I've assumed nothing of the sort and would avoid making such assumptions and assume you would to though that may be assuming too much.

No, I just find it laughable that someone can accurately judge the mental state of a chicken to such a degree to determine that it's happy.

I hate to admit it, but I've been trolling slightly here. I thought the constant overuse of the words 'happy chicken' would have given it away about two posts ago, but alas....

happy chicken indeed.

Do you like fish sitcks?

Do you like the taste of fish sticks in your mouth?

Then you , like Kanye, are a gay fish.

That should just about do it for this thread.

Manchu wrote:That should just about do it for this thread.

Did you forget that this is OT? Threads over 2 pages must end in Lockville. Such is the way of things...

If you do give up meat, trust me as someone who's sister has been a vegetarian since the early 90s, you will have the nastiest, most disgusting smelling farts in the world.

Ain't no fart like a veggie fart.

Trust me, as someone who's known vegetarians and vegans all through my life, you will never be as healthy.

Every veggie, and most especially the vegans I've known, gets colds for longer, falls for maladies more easily and generally seems to lack energy and stamina.

I think we in the west eat meat too much and certainly if I had the patience for it, I'd reduce my dead animal meals to 2-3 a week, but for whatever reason, the veggie folks I know have been more prone to illness/slower to recover.

We're omnivores, there's a balance. Going too far to one extreme or the other is just a bad idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:I hate to admit it, but I've been trolling slightly here. I thought the constant overuse of the words 'happy chicken' would have given it away about two posts ago, but alas....

The problem is that I've known a lot of organic/free-range nuts and that is EXACTLY the way they thought.

MGS wrote:Every veggie, and most especially the vegans I've known, gets colds for longer, falls for maladies more easily and generally seems to lack energy and stamina.

Could be a lack of B12? Vegans suffer from this especially. It can only be found in food that comes from animals, or supplements. I'm not giving up milk/eggs, so I should be fine. I also get a LOT of protein.

Tyyr wrote:We're omnivores, there's a balance. Going too far to one extreme or the other is just a bad idea.

True, but there are many things in our diet that aren't present in nature - add something, take away something... what's the difference? We have choice. Going down the whole 'it's not natural' route takes you to some questionable places.

You want to support British farmers, eat meat. The vast majority of veg produce is sourced from abroad, whereas the majority of UK farmland is used rearing livestock or growing barley for feeding livestock.

That to me, is a good enough reason to eat meat.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Trust me, as someone who's known vegetarians and vegans all through my life, you will never be as healthy.

Every veggie, and most especially the vegans I've known, gets colds for longer, falls for maladies more easily and generally seems to lack energy and stamina.

I think we in the west eat meat too much and certainly if I had the patience for it, I'd reduce my dead animal meals to 2-3 a week, but for whatever reason, the veggie folks I know have been more prone to illness/slower to recover.

my anecdata defeats your anecdata!
i've been vegan for about twenty years now, and honestly, i'm in much better health than i was before i was vegan.
all the health problems i have come from way before that, and i almost never get sick.
one of the big problems with a lot of folks who adopt veg*n diets is that they just eat prepackaged crap foods all the time.

Albatross wrote: I'm not giving up milk/eggs, so I should be fine. I also get a LOT of protein.

You're giving up chickens but not eggs?

All your symptoms in your first post sound like a lack of exercise. Have you considered giving up 'bad' (pretty much anything from a supermarket) meat. Try going for higher quality meat from sources you can trust, this will have a side effect of reducing your meat intake (at least initially).

Probably not as interesting as turning your dietary habits into an empty moral crusade.

rubiksnoob wrote:

Nightwatch wrote: I meant that their level of being is lower than that of humans, and do not have a soul in the same context.

How would you explain "level of being"? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but, why do people assume that humans are so much more special than animals?

It's kind of hard to explain , especially without the use of emphasis and things that you give up when you talk in text and not verbal dialogue, but I think I would say that humans consist of much deeper things than animals. Wild animals eat, sleep, mate, poop, and that's about it. Domesticated animals, particularly pets, seem to be able to bond with humans in ways that wild animals can't. However, there is still a massive range of things that humans do that pets can't, like will, intellect, the ability to reason, etc.

As a very basic example, you may be able to teach a monkey to recognize an object, like a chair. However, if you show the monkey another chair, perhaps a little shorter, with a different seat shape, the monkey will not recognize it as a chair. Animals cannot distinguish between classes of objects. To animals, there are no groupings, no shared characteristics which can classify people, places, and objects under the same set of criteria. Humans, on the other hand, are quite capable of observing data, and drawing inferences from that data. Example: Padded cushion-type thing, legs, elevated above the ground, piece of wood elevated above, this object is clearly to be sat on, and I can put it in a group of similar objects, which all go by the name "chair".

I don't know if that was clear or not, but that more or less sums up in a very basic form, one reason I believe animals are inferior to humans.

There are other things too, and if I can find a suitable link, I'll post it.

It's not that I don't like animals, or think they're useless, but that they are a legitimate food source and my opinion is that there is nothing ethically wrong with eating them.

Pets on the other hand, are valuable companions to humans. Many animals share desirable characteristics (docility, furriness, etc... ) and for this reason humans have kept them for company. A good reason not to eat your pet.
That's about it. I hope I cleared up my views for you.

George Spiggot wrote:You're giving up chickens but not eggs?

Well, I don't really like them or eat them very much... but no, I'm not. Problem?

All your symptoms in your first post sound like a lack of exercise.

You obviously missed the part where I said that I walk at least 5K most days.

Probably not as interesting as turning your dietary habits into an empty moral crusade

Nice try. I'm not falling for it. Try your flame-baiting on someone else.

I suggest going with less meat but still some. I know a couple of vegetarians and they are sick more often than most people that I know. Me personally I know I eat too much meat but I have no self control and love the taste of the little critters.

rocklord2004 wrote:I suggest going with less meat but still some. I know a couple of vegetarians and they are sick more often than most people that I know. Me personally I know I eat too much meat but I have no self control and love the taste of the little critters.

Squirrels?

Who has the energy for all this morality?

Nightwatch wrote:Squirrels?

If you can catch the little buggers I'd be happy to try one. How would you cook those things? We can make Shish Kabobs .

I just ate three chicken-fried steaks. With gravy. This vegetarian thing is starting to sound like a good idea...

I am now a vegetarian! Until the end of the weekend! Or until I have a chance to eat gyros!

Squirrels are good over rice. With chopped mushrooms with a light gravy... nom nom.

Rabbits are, to me, a bit better though.

I may have to try that recipe. What would be the best method of getting a squirrel if one isn't capable of hunting a can of tuna?

Start a tree on fire. Dig in there for the squirrel once it goes out. It's already cooked!

Rocklord wrote:What would be the best method of getting a squirrel if one isn't capable of hunting a can of tuna?

Buy an acorn costume, then hide in some bushes.

I would make a plea to those who are eating tuna to use line caught fish. Whilst more expensive, it is by far the less damaging choice.