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The end? Oh my friend.. it will never end

thatirishguy wrote:meh... worth a shot anyways
*considers if he should call Alex out as a liar*
"did some one just narrate me?"

BaronIveagh wrote:

thatirishguy wrote:meh... worth a shot anyways
*considers if he should call Alex out as a liar*
"did some one just narrate me?"

lol!

Lead Blower isn't invincible, but it's a really good tournament army. It has some solid assets besides it's firepower.

1) It's not MEQ: Most armies are tooled to kill MEQ, thus any units tooled to kill MEQ are wasted overkill points when used against IG infantry. Good examples are lightling claw terminators, DC, Lash Whip Bone Sword Warriors, Thousand Sons, Tau Plasma guns, Plasma cannons.... Most armies have a lot of points sunk into MEQ killing, and it's largely wasted points or less than ideal weapon choices when fighting IG.

2) Target Saturation & expandability: It has a LOT of front AV12 targets, and they are all expendable. It's a weakness in KP missions, but 2/3 missions are objective based missions. Most armies don't have enough AV to take out the numbers of AV12 targets. Once a Chimera is popped any surviving members of a squad are killed so easily uber anti personal weapons are also wasted points spent on overkill.

People shouldn't be analyzing how to beat leafblower. There is nothing to analyze because the answer is as simple as crack open the Chimera and kill the squishies inside. The Question people should be asking is "What not to do when fighting leafblower"

Things not to do when fighting IG:

1: Attack it in waves. Feeding a couple of fast units to the IG's melta and plasma guns while the rest of the army foot slogs across the table is a sure way to lose. The problem Mech Space marine players have is that IG is exceptionally good at killing Rhinos & Razorbacks, and the usual tactic of an IG player is to gun down most of the transports forcing the space marine player to attack in 2 waves. Alpha Strike is exceptionally important to the IG player when fighting mech space marines. Gunning down transports with an alpha strike in their deployment zone is a lot more effective than shooting at Rhinos that popped smoke after moving 12" towards the IG lines. The bottom line is Mech Space Marine is the most common type of army in a tournament, and it's in deep Kimchi when going 2nd against IG

2: Overkill a dismounted infantry squad in CC. The normal instinct of a player is to totally crush their enemy in CC, which is bad when charging 10 guardsmen. The net result is 10 dead guardsmen, and the squad being open and exposed to intense close range IG firepower. It's better to get as few models as possible into CC with the guardsmen, and have the rest multi charge a vehicle. Fewer guard casualties will mean the squad probably won't break, and the charging squad will be protected from IG shooting in the IG's shooting phase. Add to that the possible net gain of a krak grenade damaging another vehicle along with the very likely outcome that after the rest of the MEQ squad is pulled into CC with the IG infantry squad it will die in the assault phase of the IG player freeing the MEQ squad to act normally on the marine player's turn.

schadenfreude wrote:Lead Blower isn't invincible, but it's a really good tournament army. It has some solid assets besides it's firepower.

No, let me explain.

schadenfreude wrote:1) It's not MEQ: Most armies are tooled to kill MEQ, thus any units tooled to kill MEQ are wasted overkill points when used against IG infantry. Good examples are lightling claw terminators, DC, Lash Whip Bone Sword Warriors, Thousand Sons, Tau Plasma guns, Plasma cannons.... Most armies have a lot of points sunk into MEQ killing, and it's largely wasted points or less than ideal weapon choices when fighting IG.

It is not MEQ, correct, but you are talking about the guard for some reason. This army is completely mounted, and when you pop a chimera, usually you lose about half the squad inside anyway. Irrelevant point. Once the vehicle is done, you move on.

schadenfreude wrote:2) Target Saturation & expandability: It has a LOT of front AV12 targets, and they are all expendable. It's a weakness in KP missions, but 2/3 missions are objective based missions. Most armies don't have enough AV to take out the numbers of AV12 targets. Once a Chimera is popped any surviving members of a squad are killed so easily uber anti personal weapons are also wasted points spent on overkill.

No, it has some completely expendable targets, and many that are linchpins to the army. If you get shots on the important things in this list (vs most mech, the vendettas and the hydras) there is nothing left for it to come back from.

The real reason people were losing to this is because:

a) They didn't go first.
b) When they went second, they didn't reserve.

It depends on glass cannons that shoot great, but die immediately to any fire that comes to bear on it.

...also foot lists lose to it, but they don't really win games anyway.

Well actually squads need to be finished off after their transport is popped. Usually 2/3 of the squad takes a wound if their Chimera assplodes. Round 6.666 up to 8 for bad luck and a squad of melta vets still has 2 vets with melta guns that don't have to make an armor save. Heavy weapon teams can take a wound and still shoot their big gun. The squad inside will almost always be near full special/heavy weapons firepower after their ride is destroyed, so it needs to die. The trick is finding ways to kill the damaged & near dead glass cannon squad without excessive overkill.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

"You can Turbo-Boost a Jet-Council AND get fortune cast on them without leaving the Farseer off to the side. Simply stagger your deployment and turbo-boost the warlocks, leaving the last one in the line 13.11 inches away from the Farseer's starting position, then simply move him 12 and end within 2' thus attaching the Farseer to the squad and keeping your 3+ (now re-roll able) cover save.(No HE doesn't get a 3+ cover save, be careful how you allocate)"

Quoted from an article, so grain of salt, but it is possible by strict RaW.

You can also Turbo boost with a fortune by having two farseers on the table or two jetseer councils. One to fortune the Turboboosters. Heck you can have 2 Jetseer councils and Eldrad and get them both fortuned and turboboosted on turn 1. The idea that "leaf blower' will put 100 wounds on the Council is laughable. Only if there is zero terrain and the Council boosts to the most optimal spot in the center of the IG line. With half a brain the council will only be in range of half the IG army. An all SM Bikes list plays havoc with the IG 'Leaf Blower" list and one won the Big Waagh last year, if I remember correctly.

Yes that was a fellow Blade n Bolter Brian and his ultramarines biker list. Having personally gone against it twice (once in 'ard boyz), I can tell you that it has the necessary tools to take on the leaf blower and then some. Took ever lance/blaster/dissinetegrator/wyche I had to pull out a draw.

The problem with the leaf blower list is that people will start building lists specifically to take it on, and then loose to something like footslogger guard or MEQ.

Or, judging from the number of jetseers, something that doesn't allow cover saves.

Baron: An example of a list that would be a hard counter to 'Leafblower' would be razorback spam, which is still very effective against other lists.

Fearspect wrote:Baron: An example of a list that would be a hard counter to 'Leafblower' would be razorback spam, which is still very effective against other lists.

Sorry... No razorback spam is not a hard counter and actually is the worst idea ever. You spend too many points on razorback spam and you don't have enough shots. On top of being AV 11 its going to go all down hill from there.

Goatboy has tried it countless times and it goes bad for him really fast.

Was he running Lascannon/Plasmagun razorbacks? Because you really only have the hydras, the two vendettas and your multi-laser shots that are threats.

lascannon with plasma guns are the worst thing you can take because then its way to expensive, Best option if you are going to do it is take the twin linked las cannon...

The whole army is a threat to razorbacks because every weapon can punch through the Armour and its cheaper point to point then the 55 point razorback + upgrade...


you have manticores, medusa, chimera, vendettas, and hydras that are threat to the razorbacks.

if they take assault cannons you out range them and can get a good turn or two of shooting even if they go first. If they have lascannon plasma guns they have a good chance of missing first and second turn with the las cannon and plasma guns are not in range to do anything If you have 8 razorbacks you miss with 3, you hit with 5 and you should get 1-2 pens and 1 glance against a chimera or a Vendetta because more then likely they wouldn't have a cover save. All that shooting from Razorbacks and you might blow up one or two out of 8 of them. Now if you have predators more then likely those dakka predators they are not going to do much either till you get side shots and same goes with Rifilemen dreads.


if someone has 8 chimeras and they fire first or even second because you went first and you killed one or two of them then they are on the same level as the razorbacks and should either pen/ glance anywhere from 2-4 Razorbacks. Which then goes bad for the razorbacks because once you stop them for shooting they can't do anything else.

Then start adding in Hydras, Vendettas and other heavy support options from the IG book it goes down hill very quick.

You use razorbacks to supplement your army in ways that it needs to be done. If you are oging to use razorbacks you take them with Blood angels because they are fast and you can still get a decent squad inside of it.

razorback spam is just not cost efficient and is another gimmick that doesn't work in 40k.

Could 8 Deff Rollaed battlewagons work? You can do this I checked.

Not to derail the thread but I have a tactical question for those who know the "leaf blower" list. I'm taking DE and I do the raider spam what can I do against them? Is their no hope for DE or is there something I can do?

anouther exelent counter to the leaf blower is deep stiking assault melta heavy blood angels also more effective against other lists.

Deff Jaw wrote:Could 8 Deff Rollaed battlewagons work? You can do this I checked.

it would give anyone a hard time if they can't get side shots on the battlewagons and there was a big mek in there.

Problem is with that many battlewagons there usually isn't a lot of guys inside the battlewagons to do a lot of damage afterward. Its just making sure you blow out the right battlewagon and move forward from there. Now if you had 4 battlewagon and 40 nobz it would give most other list a run for their money but I don't know if you can get that many into a 2500 point list.

Nob squads run around 350-400 points lightly armed and with Uge Choppaz, but then they aren't unique and can't spread wounds. However, Biker Nobz plus Battlewagons full of boyz, Lootaz and Burnaz and a Big Mek can be a nasty list.

so ummm DashofPepper's list?

Now that the IQ's are soon to be no longer legal, or so I've heard, this is all largely moot, anyway?

BaronIveagh wrote:Now that the IQ's are soon to be no longer legal, or so I've heard, this is all largely moot, anyway?

what? you know thats just rumor right? I mean eventually it will happen, but for the rest of the year prolly, people will have to deal with this.

BaronIveagh wrote:Now that the IQ's are soon to be no longer legal, or so I've heard, this is all largely moot, anyway?

The inquisitor was just a gimmick and it really won't be that much of a deal with it. People put too much value into the inquisitor with mystics.

The real thing is the hood and that is going to be the trouble with IG but even still your not going to care that much about it.

An 8 battle wagon list requires to warbosses for HQ so that 2 groups of Nobs can be purchased as troops. It's a flawed list because it can't have any big meks, and wagons need big meks to give them the 4+ cover save. A 7 wagon list could have 1 big mek, and a 6 wagon list could have 2 meks. A 6 wagon list with 2 mek to give all the wagon a 4+ cover save has enough points left over for other stuff to be competitive against leaf blower.

Razorback Spam is a solid mech list, saying Razorback Spam sucks is saying mech suckss. It has solid firewpower and gives SM much needed added mobility. Razorback spam is a good list, but not good against leaf blower. Razorback Spam is playing the exact same game as Leaf BLower, it play's into Leaf Blower's game, but Leaf Blower outguns Razorback Spam. Challenging AV 12 Chimeras to a range slugging match with AV11 Razor Backs isn't a good idea. If you want to beat a specialized list like leafblower then you've either got to do what it does better, or do something else different and force the game to be fought on your terms.

I was just throwing it out there as an idea. Even though I wouldn't do it.

The "Leaf Blower" is a terrible list that won through the sheer luck of the person playing it.

BobTheChainsaw wrote:The "Leaf Blower" is a terrible list that won through the sheer luck of the person playing it.

Troll? Or idiot? I can't decide... I feel like starting a poll about it.

I have personaly gone against this list and the person that used had some pretty crappy rolls over all and he still blasted apart my ork army. SO A LEAF BLOWER LIST IS NOT CRAPPY NOR IS THE GUY WHO USED VERY LUCKY! Don't be stupid.

My favorite way to attack mechanized shooting armies is to assault infantry and tanks with the same unit. It ensures that you don't overkill the infantry squad and potentially takes down another vehicle (or 2).