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I play parking lot IG all the time. I win a lot of games, but people using modern dexes, with lists built with IG in mind (not keying on them, just thinking about them) can win. Don't forget that there are objectives missions that IG has to go get, and that they are challenged in kill points by correctly built opponents. Here are some lists I don't get overconfident when facing.

wolf guard battle leader power fist storm shield thunderwolf mount
wolf guard battle leader power fist storm shield thunderwolf mount
wolf guard battle leader power fist storm shield thunderwolf mount
rune priest storm caller/tempests wrath
5x grey hunters razorback twin-linked lascannon
5x grey hunters razorback twin-linked lascannon
5x grey hunters razorback twin-linked lascannon
5x grey hunters razorback twin-linked lascannon
1x thunderwolf cavalry power fist storm shield
1x thunderwolf cavalry power fist storm shield
1x thunderwolf cavalry power fist storm shield
6x long fangs 5x missiles
6x long fangs 5x missiles
6x long fangs 5x missiles

15 missiles at 6 different targets, 4 twin-linked lascannons, and 6 turn two assaulters that hit like mack trucks with 3+ invulns. It doens't matter how fragile the razorback is. it isn't a priority, IG HAS to shoot at those long fangs, and they also need to efficiently handle those thunderwolves. The absence of counter-assault is VERY telling here.

shas'el/shas'vre target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones 2x tl missile pods
shas'el/shas'vre target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones 2x tl missile pods
2x crisis target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones 2x tl missile pods
2x crisis target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones 2x tl missile pods
2x crisis target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones 2x tl missile pods
6x fire warriors
6x fire warriors
6x fire warriors
11x kroot 8x hounds
11x kroot 8x hounds
4x pathfinders devilfish multi-tracker targeting array smart missiles disruption pod
4x pathfinders devilfish multi-tracker targeting array smart missiles disruption pod
4x pathfinders devilfish multi-tracker targeting array smart missiles disruption pod
2x broadsides target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones
2x broadsides target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones
2x broadsides target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones

Top of 1 IG kills 16x gun drones, bottom of 1, 16x twin linked anti-tank shots come at you, targeting 16x different targets, and three of your targets don't have cover saves. I don't think I'd enjoy facing off against that list either.


tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs catalyst
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
2x hive guard
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs catalyst
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs catalyst
10x termagants
14x termagants
tyrannofex
tyrannofex
tyrannofex

Everything has 4+ cover, the t-fexes and hive guard just point at your vehicles and they die, and once you've finally managed to kill them all off, you get to go take objectives from 3 more monstrous creatures and approximately 100 fearless models. This one isn't really a slam dunk either.

These are just a few lists that spring to mind that can easily intimidate me and my chimeras. Well written lists, made from a current codex, compete with IG, if they didn't I'd have more trophies on my shelf.

Overpowered? No.

This Tau list, is it one that would do well against a lot of other armies apart from the Leaf Blower?

Darkwynn, IG guru! I really enjoy your leveled approach. Man, you are "the leafblower!"

Anyways, back to the thread... enough fanboy...

To some extent the whole issue is artificial.

The game isn't meant to be balanced at 2,500 points. (I mean it ism but really it isn't. I know that makes no sense but this is GW we are talking about.)

1,500 to 2,000 is the sweet spot.

Vaktathi wrote:

I'm not being a defeatist or intentionally being a prick but why would I even attempt to play a game against this list then? In every thread that has mentioned the Leafblower list someone has posted a counter, then anywhere from 5 to 1029301293012930912 people post why that won't work and all the counters.

I'd like to see a viable counter to this list other than, "Oh it can be beaten, it's just hard."

With nids? Personally, I don't know. In my 8 or so games against the new book so far with mechanized IG and Chaos Space Marines, I've massacred them every time, my first two games I didn't even take so much as a single glancing hit or lose a single guardsmen. New nids seem to be really awkward.

QFT
awkward at best. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this about 'nids.

New Nids do have a problem with anti-tank.

Plus, they suffer from the metagame environment in which lots of people take lots of melta and so on to counter mech' lists. Melta is great against mid-size creatures and useful against the MCs. Flamers are cheap unless you are Tau.

The clever money is currently on Tyranids being a fun but 2nd tier codex.

IMO the core problem is that there isn't a stand-out mega build like there was with many codexes.

It doesn't mean the codex is weak (though it might) it means the codex is harder to use than some others.

Kilkrazy wrote:This Tau list, is it one that would do well against a lot of other armies apart from the Leaf Blower?

Well, that is exactly how I'd run tau in a take all comers tourney. I stopped liking plasma once everyone got addicted to putting storm shields on everything that can take them. That save needs to be CC only...

Yeah storm shields should only have their annoying the 3+ invulnerable save in cc.

Kilkrazy wrote:To some extent the whole issue is artificial.

The game isn't meant to be balanced at 2,500 points. (I mean it ism but really it isn't. I know that makes no sense but this is GW we are talking about.)

1,500 to 2,000 is the sweet spot.

I think 1500pts. is where the game should be played. You have to make choices and can't spam as much.

CT GAMER wrote:

I think 1500pts. is where the game should be played. You have to make choices and can't spam as much.

Shep, too bad we didn't get to face off at the Slaughter, I'd like to attempt teaching you respect for the Dark Eldar! =)

C'mon, get vassal and Skype so that we can play cross-country!

Vaktathi wrote:Unfortunately this is also where many of the most abusive things are at their best because people don't have the tools to counter them, e.g. Nob Bikers, Lash+Oblit spam, etc. At 2k these aren't quite as bad, although at 2.5k you have the same issue where IG just becomes silly and other armies have run out of FoC slots to do stuff with.

Perhaps, but at 1500 an army that spams or relies on a certain gimmick has to make that decision to become rock-scissors-paper. Focus too hard, and you might have an advantage over a more generalist list, but you're also much more vulnerable to other gimmicky lists. It can be hard to deal with a hard spam of one element at 1500, but it's still possible with a balanced, well thought out army, and most importantly it's possible with a balanced, well thought out army from any codex. Go above 1500, and not only do unimaginative spam armies get to have all the rock in the world, plus all the scissors, but it also heavily favours certain codices over others.

Games above 1500 are fun, but for the best competitiveness, it really has to be 1500.

Relic_OMO wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Unfortunately this is also where many of the most abusive things are at their best because people don't have the tools to counter them, e.g. Nob Bikers, Lash+Oblit spam, etc. At 2k these aren't quite as bad, although at 2.5k you have the same issue where IG just becomes silly and other armies have run out of FoC slots to do stuff with.

Perhaps, but at 1500 an army that spams or relies on a certain gimmick has to make that decision to become rock-scissors-paper. Focus too hard, and you might have an advantage over a more generalist list, but you're also much more vulnerable to other gimmicky lists. It can be hard to deal with a hard spam of one element at 1500, but it's still possible with a balanced, well thought out army, and most importantly it's possible with a balanced, well thought out army from any codex. Go above 1500, and not only do unimaginative spam armies get to have all the rock in the world, plus all the scissors, but it also heavily favours certain codices over others.

Games above 1500 are fun, but for the best competitiveness, it really has to be 1500.

I've found the exact opposite really. 1500 makes the gimmick spam armies really powerful because an all comers list *can't* pack in everything it needs to counter them and still remain all-comers. Playing CSM's for instance against Nob Bikers at 1500 versus 2000 makes a world of difference and cuts down on the ability of the Nob Bikers to do their thing with limited counters. Likewise Lash/Oblit/PM armies are much stronger at 1500 than they are at 2000 because they can fit all their important elements in without sacrificing what really makes them powerful. It's much easier for all comers armies to get the tools they need to defeat such builds at 2000pts. IG are the primary thing that throws this off because most armies hit FoC thresholds that where they just can't take any more of the killy stuff so they work best at the points level where they just max these out, but IG with it's expandable FoC slots keeps adding stuff.

I think Nids suffer from lack of anti-tank MODELS more than anti-tank

Zoanthropes are great in a pod.. oh look no pod

T-fexes are pretty good because they stick around for a long time and keep shooting S10 guns.. no model

Tevigron creates lots of little annoying things to surround tanks.. no model

Atleast hive guard have a model!

No doubt Nids could use some more plastic models especially for the Monstrous Creatures. Conversion kits would be a good idea, to let you take a Carnifex or Trygon and change it to a Tervigon or whatever.

Luckily some after-market manufacturers are stepping into the gap to supply resin kits for mycetic pods and some of the MCs.

Whatever the situation regarding models, the nids have a structural shortage of anti-tank weapons such as meltas, plasma guns, lascannons, krak missiles and autocannons which provide cheap, effective firepower from short to medium/long range in Imperial armies.

Their best options for anti-tank are Zoeanthropes and the MCs.

Warriors are of some use in H2H attacks and their strongest ranged weapons can be useful against very light vehicles.

But in reality nids have always been that way, they rely on Tank tipping in CC rather than ranged fire power. I do think that what is true for the guard, the opposite is true for nids in that they are about 10-15% over priced. Yes the Tfex has a str 10 gun T6 and 6 wounds, however it's still BS 3 and can be insta gibbed so 275 is a bit steep. The Hive Guard are amazing, but still a bit over priced. I also think another issue is that Nids have too many GOOD options fighting for the Elites slot, IMO hive guard should be heavy, lictors should be fast, Doom should be an HQ.

Also another question, since I'll be playing a little mech heavy should I take Storm caller on one of my RP? I'm only asking because a 5+ cover is better than nothing when dealing with a large amount of fire power.

I think Nidz could do quite well in the hands of the right Hivemind...

G

The best Nid builds often take too long to play for a tournament setting, unfortunately. Multiple Tervigons supporting 9 hive guard w/ associated support elements, for example? So much time spent maneuvering, ensuring key units have cover, and moving / spawning gaunts ... hard to get a game done in time, and they're a "late game" army that shines best by the end, when they've worn things down.

Nids are tricky in that regard, and can be "unfun" to play at the best build level. Unfortunate.

Deep striking could be quite effective against this list. Once you drop outside of the 14" radius (average roll on 4-D6) of the mystics you can take out units nearby and pose a potentially serious threat to his army, requiring him to target this new threat and not your main army giving you some breathing space to launch your own attack.

Given the large points limit it's very possible that he will not be able to deploy all his units within this 14" zone of protection and therefore he will have gaps in his defensive "line" that you can exploit.

Still though it is a very strong army, and any game will be extremly tough against it.

Mookie.

LucasLAD wrote:But in reality nids have always been that way, they rely on Tank tipping in CC rather than ranged fire power. I do think that what is true for the guard, the opposite is true for nids in that they are about 10-15% over priced. Yes the Tfex has a str 10 gun T6 and 6 wounds, however it's still BS 3 and can be insta gibbed so 275 is a bit steep. The Hive Guard are amazing, but still a bit over priced. I also think another issue is that Nids have too many GOOD options fighting for the Elites slot, IMO hive guard should be heavy, lictors should be fast, Doom should be an HQ.

Also another question, since I'll be playing a little mech heavy should I take Storm caller on one of my RP? I'm only asking because a 5+ cover is better than nothing when dealing with a large amount of fire power.

True, and in today's metagame there are a lot more tanks around than under 4e, so the lack of AT is more of a weakness. Meanwhile, the numbers of tanks causes Imperial players to put more cheap AT in their armies which hurts Tyranid medium sized creatures.

20 Seers on jetbikes will gut this list. The other 1k of Eldar you get is just gravy.

torgoch wrote:20 Seers on jetbikes will gut this list. The other 1k of Eldar you get is just gravy.

The Psychic Hoods are the key issue here. The Seer Bikes aren't a bad choice for it though, played well.

Edit: And if they go first it can suck a lot, depending on terrain.

torgoch wrote:20 Seers on jetbikes will gut this list. The other 1k of Eldar you get is just gravy.

sadly, they won't people like to think they will and love to play it out in a vacuum with no variables but its highly not going to happen. The sheer amount of shooting forcing you to roll dice even on a 10 man squad you loose to many guys.


Eldar are just to expensive right now in 5th edition.

The psychic hood here is Ld8, so it needs to beat the Eldar score by 3 to work. If there was an Inq lord in the list, then it would be an issue.

I've been playing Seer councils on bikes at the GT and Throne of Skulls since the Eldar codex came out and doing reasonably well. My view and experience is that if the Eldar player has the first turn, then the game is over in turn 2 when they charge. If the Guard player has first turn then it becomes a bit more competitive depending on how many 4+ saves the Eldar make, but its still not a prospect I find alarming. There are far worse things to make a Seer Council run at.

I agree too. What I mentioned earlier wasn't something I thought would totally negate the council, it was the comprehensive list of what I think could within the army be a factor for the council Those things are ridiculously sturdy. There's not a lot Eldar can't answer.

Torgoch, when the list fields an Elite inquisitor it has two henchman for LD10. There’s no point in bringing a hood under LD10, so no one does. This and the first turn gamble are the two biggest reasons I wouldn’t want to risk the seer council lists in ‘ard boyz. If the IG player goes first before any Fortune can get up, you’re probably going to lose most of the warlocks before you even move.

That's counting on the terrain not offering a LOS block and the hoods being in range against the army with the highest mobility in the game, so I believe it's a fair gamble. Nothing is unstoppable really though

An elite Inquisitor cannot get to LD 10.. Like every other stat increasing henchmen it is for 1 or more.. Not for each one

Kirasu wrote:An elite Inquisitor cannot get to LD 10.. Like every other stat increasing henchmen it is for 1 or more.. Not for each one

This.

It's worded weirdly but yeah.

The Hierophant wrote:
If an Inquisitor has one or more Hierophants in his retinue, he gains +1 Leadership, to a maximum of 10.

The maximum part makes it sound cooler than it is, but I think that was there so your Inq Lord couldn't be leadership 12.

My thinking is that its +1 maximum, so no Ld10 elite inqs.

I don't see first turn as a particular gamble with a seer list. Normally I like to go second, unless there is a vast battery of long range firepower arrayed against me.