Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My issue with the list is how imperial guard works.. They remind me a lot of WFB chaos demons in that yes they can be beaten but it takes an arm and a leg to do so

Every disadvantage they have there is a way in their book to get rid of said disadvantage.. In IGs case as others have said, mostly due to stupid allies

The more I play against IG the more it feels like the codex was written by an IG fanboy who HAD to have a counter to everything that kills IG

ductvader wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:As I understand it Darkwynn is the player on BoLS (don't know his screen name there) who invented the list and used it last summer. So he did not just copy it.

If you read his articles on the list on BoLS, after using it for one event he gave it up because it was too strong against too many opponents to make the game fun for them.

Which is a very mature attitude IMO.

I understand he invented the list and I give him mad props for doing what he did but I was talking about all the others that have been copying it.

I read the article and honestly it sounds very pretentious and he stated he was going to use it for one more tournament. But that's whatever my hopes are that GW remakes the Witchunters and Deamonhunters Codex and removes the allies crap. If you want Allies, play a team games IMO

Indeed...it's sad to see all these guard list with a single inquisitor, two mystics, and an old school psychic hood. They have a decently working codex as it is. I sincerely hope Grey Knights are their own codex with the possible exception of accepting SoB.

I dropped the inquisitor in the championship game and in the gladiator game I just ran him without hoods. Honestly after playing the list for awhile he wasn't useful expect for a hood if I needed one. Otherwise You can drop him and if you are playing deep strikers just reserve off the board.

Darkwynn wrote:
I dropped the inquisitor in the championship game and in the gladiator game I just ran him without hoods. Honestly after playing the list for awhile he wasn't useful expect for a hood if I needed one. Otherwise You can drop him and if you are playing deep strikers just reserve off the board.

I've found that the hood seems to especially helpful against Tyranids and Eldar...other than that...sometimes I never use it in a game.

The only things that can beat a "Leafblower" list run by a good general such as Darkwynn are:

1. Another leafblower going 1st

2. A hard as nails list run by a good general with a ton of luck. For example: A blood angels list that had 2-4 blood lances drop poding/deep striking & not getting mystic shots thrown at them, then able to get off a couple blood lances and roll well enough to cripple about half of the leafblower tanks.

MVBrandt wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Nick I have often heard you went first every game in the Ard Boyz last year.

G

only went first in my last three games at finals. That was it otherwise I didn't go first at all.

in Championships I didn't go first any of the games even with the tarot and same with gladiator. People just like to assume.

yes, I said last round of Ard Boys I went first and it was great but to say the list needs to go first to win is just ignorance.

It is, however, also ignorance to say that the list can't be beaten, or is broken/overpowered, or destroys the game, or is the "best" list out there, etc.

Not that YOU'VE said that (<3), but the # of people out there proliferating such absurdity is overwhelming at times.

It's a good list, it can take all comers, it needs a good general at the helm. Darkwynn is a good general, his list is just a list.

That being said MVBI do think the list hedges a lot of counters against it and does make the game unfun. When Jon Wolf and I came up with the list it was built with other codexs in mind. I think you can give some creditability about changing the game balance or being overpowered. Because a lot of people are truely not having fun when they play that type of list.

now that being said people often confuse the leaf blower with Mech guard and call Mech guard a leafblower list. It isn't the case and I think that is where a lot of peoples comments are coming from. Honestly I think the IG codex is 10% under priced point wise and the chimera should have been brought up to 65 or 75 points for what it does.

Now when in 9 months and other armies come out we will see where other list stands but I don't see any super list coming out on top any time soon because counters to this list have a hard time against other list.

Just my 2 cents. .. T minus till the internet blows up now.

I like the "Allies" options as they add flavor and also interesting 'count as' opportunities BUT, having said that, they are prone to abuse.

There's got to be some middle ground, right?

It all boils down to what dark and others have said. It's not that the leaf blower is uber powerful, it's that guard have a counter for everything and can put it on the board all at once. The only thing that's going to beat down this list is a new codex with a bit more gumption, which is going to cause a disgusting power jump. I also agree everything is about 10-15% underpriced.

Example - I pin a unit of melta vets due to an exploding vendetta, move in Ragnar for the next round kill. Opponent uses, "Get back in the Fight" and boom 4 melta shots in the face.

This Ard boyz I'm simply building a list that can HOPEFULLY deal with leaf blower:

2 Living Lightning RP
5 Lascannon Razorbacks
15 Missile Launcher Long Fangs
Scout Squads

LucasLAD wrote:It all boils down to what dark and others have said. It's not that the leaf blower is uber powerful, it's that guard have a counter for everything and can put it on the board all at once. The only thing that's going to beat down this list is a new codex with a bit more gumption, which is going to cause a disgusting power jump. I also agree everything is about 10-15% underpriced.

Example - I pin a unit of melta vets due to an exploding vendetta, move in Ragnar for the next round kill. Opponent uses, "Get back in the Fight" and boom 4 melta shots in the face.

This Ard boyz I'm simply building a list that can HOPEFULLY deal with leaf blower:

2 Living Lightning RP
5 Lascannon Razorbacks
15 Missile Launcher Long Fangs
Scout Squads

I would stay away from the razorbacks to be honest. The AV 11 is very easy to pop with chimeras on the other side and other IG units. It will be tough but I don't think razorback spam is the way to go. On Blood Angels you might be able to get away with it but even still I don't tihnk its worth it. you are better off running rhinos and getting the 18 inch move to get there. The other issue I see space wolves having is ld 8 and multiple tank shocks are not fun for the mto deal with. A smart guard player will play aggressive against Space wolves which throws them on the defensive and can be very hard to handle.

Now you can prepare yourself for that but expect that to happen to you if you are playing a good general imo. Personal I would do 4 RP with living lighting, run the long fangs, get as many wolves as you can with a lord and some cybor wolfs and run those 15 size wolf units cross the board. Wolves are one of the best deliver ablative wounds for Space wolves that very few people notice.

Darkwynn wrote:

LucasLAD wrote:It all boils down to what dark and others have said. It's not that the leaf blower is uber powerful, it's that guard have a counter for everything and can put it on the board all at once. The only thing that's going to beat down this list is a new codex with a bit more gumption, which is going to cause a disgusting power jump. I also agree everything is about 10-15% underpriced.

Example - I pin a unit of melta vets due to an exploding vendetta, move in Ragnar for the next round kill. Opponent uses, "Get back in the Fight" and boom 4 melta shots in the face.

This Ard boyz I'm simply building a list that can HOPEFULLY deal with leaf blower:

2 Living Lightning RP
5 Lascannon Razorbacks
15 Missile Launcher Long Fangs
Scout Squads

I would stay away from the razorbacks to be honest. The AV 11 is very easy to pop with chimeras on the other side and other IG units. It will be tough but I don't think razorback spam is the way to go. On Blood Angels you might be able to get away with it but even still I don't tihnk its worth it. you are better off running rhinos and getting the 18 inch move to get there. The other issue I see space wolves having is ld 8 and multiple tank shocks are not fun for the mto deal with. I smart guard player will play aggressive against Space wolves which throws them on the defensive and can be very hard to handle.

Now you can prepare yourself for that but expect that to happen to you if you are paying a good general imo. Personal I would do 4 RP with living lighting, run the long fangs, get as many wolves as oyu can with a lord and some cybor wolfs and run those 15 size wolf units cross the board. Wolves are one of the best deliver ablative wounds for Space wolves that very few people notice.

I was just doing my dedicated AT the entire list is:
2 TWL FW/SS TH/SS Warrior/Bear
2 RP
3 WG w/pfist&cmelta
3 Rhinos
5 Razorbacks las/plas
15 Fen Wolves
Scout Squad
3x6 Longfangs w/5xML each

I'll see how this does it's already been deemed cheesy at the local level.

Alpharius wrote:I like the "Allies" options as they add flavor and also interesting 'count as' opportunities BUT, having said that, they are prone to abuse.

There's got to be some middle ground, right?

Yeah the middle ground is not having them be from 3rd edition..

The Leafblower is NOT invincible, it is a good list, no doubt, but it is by no means unbeatable.

If you play in tournaments you will come across it fairly often as it, and Wolves, are so popular right now.

There are ways around it, you just have to be creative.

Don't let a list intimidate you before you even play the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Darkwyn
The one problem with the Deathstar Wolves unit is that one PBS and they are off the board.

That is too large of a weakness to risk, at least IMO. With the propensity of mech IG your odds of drawing that PBS is pretty high. They kill a few wolves, you break on a 2 and then run right off the board. That is game set match in most cases.

It also leaves you open to massive wound stacking in HtH. A smart player will slaughter all the wolves and then let the characters die to overkill.

Ok, I fail to see why the single round of fire granted by the inquisitor is the game winning aspect of this list? Playing my pods, I would deep strike one inch off an enemy vehicle, combat squad sternguard then deploy my units as close to their tank as possible. Keeping in mind that artillery does not rotate. I don't want to be near plasma and they cannot cover their tank with blasts.

I am not being smart or rude here. I think I am just missing something. Can someone please explain?

The leafblower has a lot of firepower, and it *CAN* counter most other options.

It's a solid all comers build.

The reason you see a lot of internet woe about it is based upon the fact that anybody with half a brain can "argue" why it would beat whatever counter is suggested for it, since ... as stated ... it's a solid all comers build.

As far as its success in the tournament field ... well, consider the context. Good general, + going first in all of last rounds at ard boyz, + whacky gladiator and only playing but so many of the opponents there, + 3 out of ~220 opponents at regular Adept Champs? You want to know how many of us went undefeated there?

There's also the aforementioned misnomer applied ... people call any mech IG list they see a "leafblower" b/c they've read too much BOLS or whatever.

The guard codex allows you to build excellent all comers builds that CAN go toe to toe even with builds that would appear to be "hard counters." Cool stuff, especially if you're a great general ... but any kind of OMG CODEX BROKED ARMY BROKED reaction is ... silly.

hyperviper6 wrote:Ok, I fail to see why the single round of fire granted by the inquisitor is the game winning aspect of this list? Playing my pods, I would deep strike one inch off an enemy vehicle, combat squad sternguard then deploy my units as close to their tank as possible. Keeping in mind that artillery does not rotate. I don't want to be near plasma and they cannot cover their tank with blasts.

I am not being smart or rude here. I think I am just missing something. Can someone please explain?

Back up all my tanks to the edge of the board, that way you're potentially going to scatter and mishap. Deploy in a + pattern so I always have a gun pointed at you. Heavy weapons teams have a 360 degree LoS. Do NOT underestimate 1st Rank Fire, 2nd Rank Fire it will floor you.

That said the LoS issue can be exploited, if the unit that they nominate to fire cannot see the target then they cannot fire. Also they can only fire at ONE target, therefore it's either the unit deploying or the transport itself.

LucasLAD wrote:

hyperviper6 wrote:Ok, I fail to see why the single round of fire granted by the inquisitor is the game winning aspect of this list? Playing my pods, I would deep strike one inch off an enemy vehicle, combat squad sternguard then deploy my units as close to their tank as possible. Keeping in mind that artillery does not rotate. I don't want to be near plasma and they cannot cover their tank with blasts.

I am not being smart or rude here. I think I am just missing something. Can someone please explain?

Back up all my tanks to the edge of the board, that way you're potentially going to scatter and mishap. Deploy in a + pattern so I always have a gun pointed at you. Heavy weapons teams have a 360 degree LoS. Do NOT underestimate 1st Rank Fire, 2nd Rank Fire it will floor you.

That said the LoS issue can be exploited, if the unit that they nominate to fire cannot see the target then they cannot fire. Also they can only fire at ONE target, therefore it's either the unit deploying or the transport itself.

First rank, second rank can only be issued to units not in a tank correct?

I derped it's an order that can ony be done in the owning players turn. So it's irrelevant, but yes.

So leaf blower means cripple an enemy in thier deployment area,but why is it called "leaf blower"?

Tony the guardsman wrote:So leaf blower means cripple an enemy in thier deployment area,but why is it called "leaf blower"?

Because The Warhammer 40,000 tournament fun and variety draining list is a bit long winded?

I kid, I kid

Because it can blow away the opposition like a leafblower does to leaves.

IG is broken.

Too many cheap tanks and no, you don't need any freaking skill to play with them. The IG leafblower is like a shotgun in the hands of a child. In the hands of a veteran player it is extremely deadly. There's so much firepower it's absurd.

It all boils down to the chimera being over the top. Reduce it back to 2 fire points and 30 more points and the list suddenly isnt as scary

Its like a wave serpent for a third of the cost.. Who cares if it only has 10 side armor, you got 2 more for every serpent! oh and 3 specials + 1 heavy able to shoot if you dont move. Id love to see less posts about it not being unbeatable and more actual strategies :p The formula for winning is general + army list + probability

Assume each player is exactly the same in skill and experience (IE facing yourself) and dont assume either player will have absurd luck.. It would then come down to the list being used so Im curious how would people beat their own IG mech lists, and then how would they COUNTEr someone doing exactly that? Its not about how to beat the list its about the list being powerful enough to just shrug off such attempts

While IG tanks are relatively cheap and effective, the clincher of the leafblower as described is that 2,500 is enough points to build it.

It has all the various options and countermeasures needed, which you couldn't fit into a 1,500 point list.

The same points level for the enemy, instead of being a balance, actually works against him by minimising the effect of blast markers deviating off target.

There are so many targets in the deployment zone that everything lands on something.

However, it's not true that IG tanks win without skill. Skill and experience always help against any army.

The big issue with guard lists is that people are so afraid to take the "hit" from the big guns or flashy things that they ignore the Chimeras for "too long." Chimeras win games in the end, b/c they are scoring and full of meltaguns or assorted other weaponry, yet they are one of the more fragile units in the game due to the ready ease with which you can pull off side armor shots, rendering them akin to land speeders in terms of toughness.

At Adepticon, my three wins were against arguably superior lists on paper, where I was running chimeras + straken + vets + trips vendettas. The Vendettas are "scary" b/c of their trips tllas and took the majority of early game fire ... leading to situations where chimeras full of pissed off meltavets (pissed off = straken) won the game late. Intriguingly, while a vendetta will spend all game knocking out transports, it's generally useless at getting rid of infantry in cover later in the game when it really matters, and the proliferation of melta and absence of fire points makes it helpless in terms of supporting a guard army at the point of attack at the "end." There are other parallels that can be drawn vs. many other guard "scary" vehicles that draw fire off the keypoint chimeras and troops.

In a situation vs. the leafblower, it's not the same ... and it's not just the chimeras that are doing it to you, but the general lesson remains the same. Insulate your list against pinning and breakage on your guys (I do this now with stubborn+morale re-roll for my guard lists) so that even if your transports are popped, your dudes with meltaguns and/or power fists are functional 'till the last man in the unit, and fixate on the things that will matter the most when the game draws tighter. Also, as mentioned, when facing an army full of S10 ordnance large blasts (which will give a player lots of opportunities to roll 5+highest of 2d6 vs. side and rear armor 10 targets off "nicks" from the templates), don't castle up to start.

Another issue, obviously, relates to "tournament" terrain ... when 25" of the board is *actually* obscured and area terrain'ed, you can drastically reduce the pain of an IG alpha strike. I've played numerous games against the "actual" leafblower and more optimized / differently played variants, at multiple point levels (including the original), piloted by a variety of competent friends / generals. It's not that frightening, but it requires you be both intelligent with your play, and exacting in terms of obtaining every cover save, ideal placement, etc., possible. Consider that when you are facing a close combat purist army, there are numerous "tricks" you must pull when they get to you to ensure they don't pull off all the ideal charges / multi-charges / etc. For some reason I notice a number of players who do not do all of the small things in regard to unit positioning, model placement, orientation of your units relative to cover, etc. that are required to similarly insulate yourself from the "worst" implications of a true gunline. The Leaf Blower is an example of an optimized gunline, and if you don't do all the little things to nullify the splashy painful nature of its damage delivery, you're going to get crunched by it. Huge difference between people not comprehending the best ways to protect themselves, and a list being "actually" broken.

Kirasu wrote:It all boils down to the chimera being over the top. Reduce it back to 2 fire points and 30 more points and the list suddenly isnt as scary

Its like a wave serpent for a third of the cost.. Who cares if it only has 10 side armor, you got 2 more for every serpent! oh and 3 specials + 1 heavy able to shoot if you dont move. Id love to see less posts about it not being unbeatable and more actual strategies :p The formula for winning is general + army list + probability

Assume each player is exactly the same in skill and experience (IE facing yourself) and dont assume either player will have absurd luck.. It would then come down to the list being used so Im curious how would people beat their own IG mech lists, and then how would they COUNTEr someone doing exactly that? Its not about how to beat the list its about the list being powerful enough to just shrug off such attempts

Reducing fire points may be a valid criticism, however upping it 30pts brings it back to its 3E cost, where its then too expensive to be viable. On it's own, the cost is fine, the real issue is not needing to get out. The wave serpent has far better armor, weapons, speed and damage reduction. Remember, it's carrying guardsmen, not marines, so it shouldn't be costed as though it were. 85pts would be what it should be if it's carrying marines, not for carrying guardsmen. It also lacks side hatches, which, for a transport with side AV10, is rather huge. They got the cost right I think, it's about what most people were saying it should be under the last codex, just not the fire points.

5 fire points is indeed absurd, though I think what's happening is what arose with old 4th edition Nid lists and some others.

The Chimera has numerous weaknesses - side armor 10 on a pretty rectangular chassis being one of them. The problem is that all of its weaknesses are GAMEPLAY oriented ... that is to say, a clever general can PLAY better to nullify them. For more elite or higher costed units, you HAVE to play better to get best use out of them ... Chimeras are the inverse. The Wave Serpent pays to be melta proof, and have side AV12. The Chimera can be played better to gain DE FACTO the same - avoid melta range, eliminate enemy melta, minimize visibility of side armor arcs ... if you can play in such a way that your Chimeras aren't subjected to additional d6 and aren't hit in side armor, your 55 point vehicle now IS as good as their 1xx point vehicle. Therein lies the rub.

The Guard are an effective army, made more so by the fact that their low points cost enables greater force multiplication from "good generalship."

Doing all that with the chimera requires a much more active role on the part of the commander and often simply can't be avoided (drop pods, deep strikers, etc will get off melta shots when they come in). Also, the Wave Serpent was costed under a different paradigm, when skimmers were nigh impossible to kill due to the 4E skimmer rules. I'd expect them to drop to probably 70pts or so base when Eldar get redone. Then there's still also the issue that chimera's carry T3 5+sv Ld7/8 units and not 4+/3+sv Ld8/9 units.

The wave serpent functions far better as an actual transport getting guys from point a to point b, the chimera is basically a mobile bunker.

Vaktathi wrote:Doing all that with the chimera requires a much more active role on the part of the commander

In other words... Use Tactics -- maybe not such a bad thing to encourage in a wargame.

Vaktathi wrote:and often simply can't be avoided (drop pods, deep strikers, etc will get off melta shots when they come in). Also, the Wave Serpent was costed under a different paradigm, when skimmers were nigh impossible to kill due to the 4E skimmer rules. I'd expect them to drop to probably 70pts or so base when Eldar get redone. Then there's still also the issue that chimera's carry T3 5+sv Ld7/8 units and not 4+/3+sv Ld8/9 units.

The wave serpent functions far better as an actual transport getting guys from point a to point b, the chimera is basically a mobile bunker.

You're about right IMO. Nothing wrong with a mobile bunker as such, especially when it is flamer proof and carries two useful weapons.

The issue isn't that the Chimera is too cheap, it is just too cheap compared to Eldar and Tau transports.

Reducing the fire points would help balance it.

Vaktathi wrote:Doing all that with the chimera requires a much more active role on the part of the commander and often simply can't be avoided (drop pods, deep strikers, etc will get off melta shots when they come in). Also, the Wave Serpent was costed under a different paradigm, when skimmers were nigh impossible to kill due to the 4E skimmer rules. I'd expect them to drop to probably 70pts or so base when Eldar get redone. Then there's still also the issue that chimera's carry T3 5+sv Ld7/8 units and not 4+/3+sv Ld8/9 units.

The wave serpent functions far better as an actual transport getting guys from point a to point b, the chimera is basically a mobile bunker.

You know its been a whole year and people are still talking about this list. I don't even think Nob bikers lasted this long :(

hyperviper6 wrote:Ok, I fail to see why the single round of fire granted by the inquisitor is the game winning aspect of this list? Playing my pods, I would deep strike one inch off an enemy vehicle, combat squad sternguard then deploy my units as close to their tank as possible. Keeping in mind that artillery does not rotate. I don't want to be near plasma and they cannot cover their tank with blasts.

I am not being smart or rude here. I think I am just missing something. Can someone please explain?

Sell me your loaded scatter dice

Given how bad the chimera was in 4E and how awesome Devilfish and Wave Serpents were, I think we've seen the balance swing. I'd expect once Tau and Eldar get redone, the low cost of the chimera and its fire points won't seem as bad. As usual however, we have armies spanning multiple editions and design paradigms, thus resulting in awkwardness. I think relative to the 5E SM armies, chimera's aren't unbalanced at all, it's the Xenos armies, 4E SMs, and Tyranids that seem to have issues, most of which should be rectified before 6E and the cycle will begin again. Tyranids I don't know what to say, the book added a lot of cool stuff but just seemed to fall on it's face in terms of building a solid all comers list I think. I haven't seen them do terribly well yet.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with DE raiders, that'll be fun I think

Lash spam did.

G

Darkwynn wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Doing all that with the chimera requires a much more active role on the part of the commander and often simply can't be avoided (drop pods, deep strikers, etc will get off melta shots when they come in). Also, the Wave Serpent was costed under a different paradigm, when skimmers were nigh impossible to kill due to the 4E skimmer rules. I'd expect them to drop to probably 70pts or so base when Eldar get redone. Then there's still also the issue that chimera's carry T3 5+sv Ld7/8 units and not 4+/3+sv Ld8/9 units.

The wave serpent functions far better as an actual transport getting guys from point a to point b, the chimera is basically a mobile bunker.

You know its been a whole year and people are still talking about this list. I don't even think Nob bikers lasted this long :(