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[quote=Redbeard
Have you people never heard of ASL? Avalon Hill's Panzer games? I mean, you want to prove what a strategic badass you are, there are a multitude of games better suited to that approach.

lunarman wrote:I think you shouldn't be allowed to play if you've not got a painted army. Full stop

And painted doesn't mean sprayed black, it means each figure painted to a tabletop standard, not just three colours or whatnot, but a fully painted and finished figure with shading, basing and detailing.

You shouldn't be allowed to play if every model in your army isn't heavily converted tbqh. Kitbashes don't count; every conversion has to be from scratch except for the figure you're basing it on.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

lunarman wrote:I think you shouldn't be allowed to play if you've not got a painted army. Full stop

And painted doesn't mean sprayed black, it means each figure painted to a tabletop standard, not just three colours or whatnot, but a fully painted and finished figure with shading, basing and detailing.

You shouldn't be allowed to play if every model in your army isn't heavily converted tbqh. Kitbashes don't count; every conversion has to be from scratch except for the figure you're basing it on.

You should also have to have detailed pre-sketches of each figure to make the sure the figure looks like your concept art. The sketches must be on grid paper; anything less would be a travesty.

lunarman wrote:I think you shouldn't be allowed to play if you've not got a painted army. Full stop

They'll be playing in the event. Venue wants it open.

All the paint vs. no-paint arguments don't really matter in this thread. Augustus needs
feedback on what to do when he gets armies with no-paint because they'll be allowed to
play.

malfred wrote:Maybe give painted armies first priority to register?

3 weeks before the event...

RandomGuy: hey, i want to sign up for your tourny.
TO: sure, but we're only allowing people with painted armies to sign up early. is your army painted?
RandomGuy: um... *thinking* yeah, sure... it is. three color minimum and all.

day of the event...

RandomGuy: i'm here to play.
TO: hey, the glue on your army is still wet! you said your army is painted.
RandomGuy: *thinking* um, i decided to bring a different one... yeah, that's it.




if you make people presubmit their lists for comp scoring and such, i could see it working but then you can't change your mind on what you're bringing (which i'm not a fan of). there's nothing stopping people from simply lying about bringing a painted army unless they have to submit lists early.

malfred wrote:All the paint vs. no-paint arguments don't really matter in this thread. Augustus needs feedback on what to do when he gets armies with no-paint because they'll be allowed to play.

I think the question that naturally follows is what the desired result should be.

If he's looking to knock those people out of contention, it's easy enough to structure paint scoring to do that (forgive me if it's already been mentioned that paint won't be scored and I missed it). Another old way of doing it is that the TO is allowed to ask players to remove any unpainted minis from the tabletop. So yeah, you can bring a mostly unpainted army, you just won't be able to field most of it. But I don't know if that would be acceptable to the venue owner given their desire to open the event up to unpainted in the first place.

malfred wrote:Augustus needs
feedback on what to do when he gets armies with no-paint because they'll be allowed to
play.

And as folks keep saying here, the only fair way to enforce painting and not close off the event is to score the event according to what you find important. Since the painting portion here is obviously more important than the tournament given that pairing by paint scores is what's being discussed, then replace battle points with paint score.

The primary score each game is your opponent judging your painting; there's a 5 point bonus for the game itself and who won.

Proportion it. If painting scores are 10% of the overall score, then 10% of the effort of the tournament and expectations should be in painting. If you want painting to be mandatory, make painting scores 50% of the tournament. Problem solved.

No one has suggested that painting is more important than gaming, they've just stated that it is important.

I believe in all of the above being an important aspect of the hobby.

But if someone doesn't care to paint their stuff it stands to reason that they don't care if they are playing on the pretty table or on the shoeboxes and pop cans. It can't hurt to have a spare 'unfinished' table for 'unfinished' armies to duke it out on if there's the table space for it. If anything it just means the TO is putting as little effort into it as his players. It might be nice even to have several of those tables that double as arts-n-craft stations between games, and only a couple of 'deluxe' tables for the few people that do want the visual appeal depending on the proportion of aesthetic players to grey and metal players.

Guitardian wrote:I believe in all of the above being an important aspect of the hobby.

But if someone doesn't care to paint their stuff it stands to reason that they don't care if they are playing on the pretty table or on the shoeboxes and pop cans. It can't hurt to have a spare 'unfinished' table for 'unfinished' armies to duke it out on if there's the table space for it. If anything it just means the TO is putting as little effort into it as his players. It might be nice even to have several of those tables that double as arts-n-craft stations between games, and only a couple of 'deluxe' tables for the few people that do want the visual appeal depending on the proportion of aesthetic players to grey and metal players.

How dare you presume what players are putting into their armies? I guess armies out of new codexes shouldn't be seen on tournaments tables for weeks-months afterwards (if you're a serious painter) and for months to a year afterwards by the casual painter?

If an RTT has a painting requirement, fine. I will bring a painted army or not attend. If a tournament doesn't have a painting requirement and armies are judged on the spot as unworthy of a real table....I'm asking for a refund and walking out.

If someone doesn't care to paint their stuff it stands to reason that they don't care if they are playing on the pretty table or on the shoeboxes and pop cans....

If someone doesn't care to covert their stuff it stands to reason that they don't care if they are playing on table with home-made terrain or the one made out of product boxes.

If someone doesn't care to make their army competitive and capable of beating mine, it stands to reason that they don't care if they are playing in the kiddie room in the back where people stick their kids while they game right? If you wanted to play in the tournament on equal footing you would have brought a decent list.

If someone doesn't care to wear deoderant to the tournament and wear a fresh change of clothes, it stands to reason that they don't care if they play inside the dumpster out back with the rest of the stink, right?

If someone doesn't care enough to shave their beard before coming to the tournament, it stands to reason that they don't mind if everyone calls them a hippie for the duration right?
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If you have a fully painted painted army that is not heavily converted and don't a GT win or multiple RTT wins under your belt with that army to demonstrate its competitiveness then you announcing that you're ok with playing on the cardboard product box in the kiddie room in the back with McDonald toys for prize support.

Same logic.

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This entire mentality is wrong. It is elitist, it is discriminatory, and it revolves around putting a group of people into a substandard category in your eyes and giving them poor treatment. It doesn't matter...it DOES NOT FETHING MATTER if they care about playing on a cardboard table, it matters that you do. It matters that you are intentionally treating them in a manner you consider to be inferior because they shouldn't care by your judgmental standards. If you have a mentally challenged person in your household who can't tell the difference between rancid meat and good meat, is it ok to feed them the rancid meat because they don't know the difference?

Being proud of your hobby is great. Being proud of your painting is great. Being proud of your gaming abilities is also great. Discriminating against people who don't meet your standards of enjoyment of the hobby and treating them the way you would not want to be treating is NOT FETHING GREAT!

Dashofpepper wrote:...If a tournament doesn't have a painting requirement and armies are judged on the spot as unworthy of a real table....I'm asking for a refund and walking out.

Perfect

Dashofpepper wrote:Discriminating against people who don't meet your standards of enjoyment of the hobby and treating them the way you would not want to be treating is NOT FETHING GREAT!

You scream a lot, we get it.

Dash: They're being told in advance if this is what he's doing.

Calm down pepper. I am not discriminating, just saying, if you want to play football you had better be prepared or you will be ridiculed, unless most of the other players haven't a clue what they are doing, or are ill prepared either. Another analogy I know, but they all amount to the same question and conundrum: what are the rules, and is it feasable to slack the rules a bit? and if so what disservice does that do to the people who expect all the rules to be valued as much as they put the effort to do? Side tables of half-made terrain make for plenty of fine games on your kitchen floor, but you don't show up at a pro sports even without your jersey either, you can play football in your back yard. It is NOT elitism and yes you don't have to shout, it is just an expected standard, and an alternative for those who either can not, or just refuse to, meet that standard.

I want everybody to play, and to paint, and to chat, and to attend... but when you are looking for an aesthetic in the game on a beautiful board with beautiful figures, it's nice to know that the other guy was meeting that same ideal. If not, he can have the cheerios box table, I don't see that as elitist, just a matter of aesthetics. All the matchups are random enough anyways, why not just add the 'unpainted proxies play on cheerios boxes' while painted stuff goes on the table someone might actually want to take a photo on as another way to distribute matchups.

I see batreps on here on full terrain boards with full based and painted armies and they ALWAYS catch more attention than the newspaper and boxes and half-built proxy armies on the linoleum battle reports. Why bother to take photos anyway if you have nothing anyone would care to check out. That's why painted gamers seem to be kind of irked by unpainted gamers.

As to 'what if your codex just came out?' well... sorry for picking flavor of the month I guess. First I checked Blood Angels were around in 1990, and Genestealers and Space Wolves all around the same time, and I bought a Guard fig in 1989. If I didn't have that guard fig painted now, and if it wasn't made of lead, and so on, I would be pretty embarrassed putting it in a tournament setting.

If you have to repaint just to use codex revisions for a codex-creep advantage then you didnt have it painted in the first place. They've all been around for a long long time so that is no excuse for having an unpainted BA army just because their new codex just came out. If you played BA you would already have them.

On the other hand, if you just got them because they are flavor of the month then you should take your munchkin WAAC army to the 'dont care what it looks like' table and let the aesthetic players enjoy their colorful miniatures displays blowing each other up on the colorful tables. So yeah. I guess it is elitist. I'm an elitist kind of guy, and being such makes me feel... i dunno... kind of elitist.

To me it seems like it shouldn't be seen as 'elitist' so much as "yes we'll slack the rules for entry for you, that's why we set up these ad-hoc tables so more people can play with whatever they can bring."

Augutus' idea is far more simple than most seem to be seeing.

1. The rules are posted clearly in advance
2. You are allowed to bring an unpainted army as opposed to most GT type events
3. If you decide to attend and bring a non painted army, you will have consequences as stated far before the tourney(see 1.)
4. If you do not like the consequences as stated in 1. you do not have to attend the tourney.

So in conclusion, you may attend or not attend the event. If you attend, you except the consequences for the event. If you do not agree with them then you do not have to attend.

Its like the Ard Boyz, if you didnt like mission 3 then dont play.

And for anyone who says that things like the ard boyz and augustus' proposed event, need to consider that there arnt that many events, need to consider that there are currently 2 GT sized events in Denver. Next year there will be 3, and Augustus' would make 4. There is no shortage of gaming in CO. So, you can easily skip this one and attend Tacticon, or wait for Air Force Academy, or Ghengis, or ConQuest.

malfred wrote:Dash: They're being told in advance if this is what he's doing.

Yes, because announcing in advance that you're an elitist jerk and that while you're planning on allowing inferior people to play in your event, you plan on labeling and discriminating against them and treating them unequally makes it perfectly OK.

A lot of selective reading going on here, folks feel free to read the rest of my post(s) where I outlined quite clearly the problems here and gave analogies and other examples of where this leads within our own hobby.

Common sense and equal treatment for everyone are lacking in this thread and apparently unwelcome; I'm bowing out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guitardian wrote:
As to 'what if your codex just came out?' well... sorry for picking flavor of the month I guess. First I checked Blood Angels were around in 1990, and Genestealers and Space Wolves all around the same time, and I bought a Guard fig in 1989. If I didn't have that guard fig painted now, and if it wasn't made of lead, and so on, I would be pretty embarrassed putting it in a tournament setting.

If you have to repaint just to use codex revisions for a codex-creep advantage then you didnt have it painted in the first place. They've all been around for a long long time so that is no excuse for having an unpainted BA army just because their new codex just came out. If you played BA you would already have them.

Yes, because we've all been playing 40k for years.....

Painting an army takes time and money, and a lot of the time skill. What if they dont have either its a bit unfair for them to get thrown in the corner as if they are the scum of the hobby geeks while people look down their noses thinking they are greater then them.

What about the people who just appear with black undercoat and 2 coloured dots on there models. What then? They dont care either but they get treated like an adult.

If I was to go to that tournament I just rip off the stuff and play on the flat table. That what the problem is, instead of just giving them an empty table you are dressing it up to deliberately belittle them in front of everyone.

I think its a horrible idea tbh. And I agree with DoP up there.

I also have to agree with Dash. Make the 3 colour painting as a requirement to attend. Many tourneys do this so make it clear you are going to enforce it for entry into the tourney. The painting requirement helps me to get my models to at least the 3 colour standard.

What Dash is saying (not to put words in his mouth) I think is that you are creating discrimination as though it is or should be a normal part of a tourney - an us and them grouping. It doesn't matter that you advertise it ahead of the tourney. Many statements in this thread make it clear the intent is to segregate those deemed inferior.

This does not sit well with me. I understand the feeling those players that have painted up their armies nicely and then see unpainted armies on the table across from them. I have felt a little annoyed when painting requirements have been listed for a tourney (making me hurry up to make sure I meet the standard) and then the requirement is dropped at the last minute so that many unpainted armies show up.

The answer is to make a tourney requirement and stick to it. Everyone is happy and knows what to expect and no discrimination.

Swiss style pairing already segregates those deemed inferior. This is no differant than the seperation of an open tourney vs an invitational.

In an invitational you must fulfill certain criteria along the lines of battle scores to attend.

In an open everyone can attend.

This is the same thing only you are pairing based on apperance rather than battle.

In a normal tourney, you have your tables numbered from 1-whatever. Usualy your top tabels are your best looking and your last are almost remnants. This is in no way differant than that. The people with the best battle scores are on the best terrain and those with the lowest generally are on the sub par tables.

I thought this was a really funny idea, then I wondered if you're serious.

This idea confuses me, is there a paining requirement or isn't there? what if I have a single solitary unpainted model? Do I have to use the crap board, or do I get a board with like one coke bottle on it?

Also, it's kinda sad, but I'd almost prefer the crap terrain, as it might be easier to play on than say, terrain with Tau Buildings

Holy basement dwellers batman, this idea is horrible. It reeks of cry babies, elitists, and all around jerks. I mean seriously, you guys are playing a game. Not a normal game, but a game with a near 100 page long rulebook, plus special rules for your armies made of over priced models. But if that isnt enough, you spent hours and hours painting them.

HOLY gak, YOUR A BIG fething DEAL!!!!!11

If, in some way, unpainted armies offend your delicate sensibilities. If it ruins this true gentlemans game for you, dont allow them in your tournament. That way you dont have to withstand the utter horror and dehumanizing effects of unpainted miniatures.

BUT WAIT IGtS, THE VENUE WANTS THE THING TO BE OPEN FOR EVERYONE

OH NOES!! Guess you have to grow a pair, man up, and play against unpainted armies. I know thats hard to do. Some of you gamers might leave with post traumatic stress syndrome. But its the only way.

But wait theres more, time to go down the list of outright silly things and refute them.

This gem is from guitardian.

As to 'what if your codex just came out?' well... sorry for picking flavor of the month I guess. First I checked Blood Angels were around in 1990, and Genestealers and Space Wolves all around the same time, and I bought a Guard fig in 1989. If I didn't have that guard fig painted now, and if it wasn't made of lead, and so on, I would be pretty embarrassed putting it in a tournament setting.

If you have to repaint just to use codex revisions for a codex-creep advantage then you didnt have it painted in the first place. They've all been around for a long long time so that is no excuse for having an unpainted BA army just because their new codex just came out. If you played BA you would already have them.

I know right. Like, I have a friend who just started playing the game. And he started space wolves. Must be because he is a win at all costs player. But my other friend, he has played guard since third edition, so its ok. Starbomber has played for about 6 months now, but plays orks. Its clearly because hes a power gamer that he runs battle wagons. Not because he has a mental black that anything not in vehicles can still be good. Everyone who starts up a new army does so because its flavor of the month.

bs

I started eldar 3 years ago because I decided I needed a new army, looked around, and said "I really like how they look, and they play different than anything I have owned". It was only later I made them competitive. I started bugs with the new codex. I had always liked the bugs, but felt their playstyle was too limited. The new book gave them many more ways to play, thus I started them. But wait, I am a win at all costs player. So thats the only reason.

here is one from anime-wrecking crew guy

Swiss style pairing already segregates those deemed inferior.

Youre 100% correct there. What ive always done is pair lowest to highest after each mission. That way, in round 3, the player with least points plays the guy with highest points. It lets the players know I think everyone has an equal chance of winning.

from dash

If someone doesn't care to wear deoderant to the tournament and wear a fresh change of clothes, it stands to reason that they don't care if they play inside the dumpster out back with the rest of the stink, right?

i fully support this.


Actually here is my own idea. Its for an ard boyz style event, only we pair lowest to highest. Because if you cant win games it should be drilled into your skull that everyone thinks you suck. Or even better, as soon as you lose a game you get sent home right away. We dont want losers like you at our events!.


All seriousness aside, the logical thing is just to make painting scores part of overall, and a low prize for best general. Something like this for prize amounts.

$100 for best overall
$60 best painted
&60 best sportsman
&25 best general.

I am playing in an event in 3 weeks. Its labeled as a hobbyist event. There are 15 battle points, and 60 painting available. I have no chance of winning, but could care less. Nobody is telling me I am less of a player because of it. The newspaper and cardboard table terrain is just being a jerk. They have made it clear I cannot place by not having a well painted army. Not just three colors, but excellent details and conversions. They did not say "lol I hate unpainted armies, so you play on the uglee tables!!!".

There are different ways to say things. Lets assume a friend of mine, having been in a rush out the door that morning, forgot to brush his teeth. I can tell him this in two ways.
1-Holy gak, what did you do, eat some roadkill. Your breath is horrible. Bonus points for doing this in front of everyone. Public humiliation works best. And mommy didnt hug me enough as a child.

2-I can lean over, whisper to him that his breath stinks, and thats it. Its embarrassing for him, but it wasnt rude of me.

Augustus is a masterful troll.

Maybe make the open a qualifier for a different event, where painting WILL be required then?

I keep seeing the word 'discrimination' thrown around...
I think people don't know the definition of the word.

Refusing/unable to paint your minis is not a class, not a race, not a gender, not a religion... It is an action and a decision, unless you had both your thumbs blowwn off by a firework accident or something.

"treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit."

Showing up with a painted army is individual merit based upon your own actions. Not what a group of people did, not because of a protected class. You are being judged and treated differently 100% based upon you, your actions and your choices.

But even that isn't fair I suppose?

And when there are standards, anyone who is too lazy to meet the standard is apparently elitist too. Jobs that require High School Diplomas are 'elitist' as well because I didn't feel like going to school my senior year? Maybe they are also discriminating against people like me... High school drop outs. It isn't like I am being held to a standard based upon my own actions and merit. And you will be paid less, treated poorly and given less responsibility because of it if you are given a job. Because that is not discrimination, that is holding people to thier own level of effort and merit.

It never ends for some people. First they complain about not being able to participate because they refuse to paint for <excuse goes here>. The venue then caves to these loudmouth vocal minority and then they are allowed to crash events and force change in the requirements (unfairly to the people who paid to play in a painted event) but then they lose appearance points or some other penalty because of it and they complain about how the game (and $$ prizes) should be based on raw gaming skill because. (in a game where there is very little skill and most 'skill' is dice based or you can download skill off BoLS armylists)

Treating people differently because they do not show up with a painted army is not discrimination... it is treating them with as much respect and attention that they treat the hobby they participate in. If you don't like that... go play 'ard boyz. Some of us do not enjoy playing against unpainted armies or proxies and pay extra and seek out events that we will enjoy.

I prefer standards, but when people complain to store owners to get standards revoked and force the TO to run events he doesn't agree with, I am totally fine with dressing up like ghosts using sheets covered in paint splatter and going "oooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo!" and chasing those people out of the store with paintbrushes.

If you make the painting pairings one round only, instead of random, and the trash tables are only there for one event - fine, if it is made clear *ahead* of time.

I really dont get the crying and moaning from some people here: if you dont like the conditions of entry, dont go. Its not rocket science.

Dash - the tabels are just as functional as normal tables, they just arent as deserving of PRETTY tables. You have stated "the game" is all you care about - meaning no penalising is going on. You also missed that the paintring pairings were suggested as first round only.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

I really dont get the crying and moaning from some people here: if you dont like the conditions of entry, dont go. Its not rocket science.

It IS the venue's (and Augustus's) choice to run the tournament this way. I just keep
stressing that as an open event this one is not very open and it might run counter to
the venue's goal (attract all players).

But we don't know the venue's full intentions behind that goal. If it's "leave a loophole
so players can't complain they were barred" then this fits the bill. Augustus runs the
event how he likes it, and everyone is happy.

If the goal is "encourage anyone to come to event" then this isn't very encouraging or
appealing.

Again, I agree that the event should be run how Augustus wants it (it's his time and
effort going into this) but the store owner has a say.

Augustus, do you know why he wants the event open to all? And what does he think
about your idea?

malfred wrote:If the goal is "encourage anyone to come to event" then this isn't very encouraging or
appealing.

The issue is, not allowing the TO to set a minimum standard doesn't accomplish this as many players will be driven away and will not be "encoraged to come to the event."

No standards = "Encourage people who are usually excluded from most events and very vocal about it to come to your event while driving others away to other events."

He should tell the store that, then, and work it out there.

nkelsch wrote:Refusing/unable to paint your minis is not a class, not a race, not a gender, not a religion... It is an action and a decision, unless you had both your thumbs blowwn off by a firework accident or something.

In what way is your religion not an ongoing action and decision by you?

You're right, and in more enlightened countries, it's not treated as a protected class either.