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Frazzled wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:This idea screams of "painted army elitism."

It's like you're telling the guys, "We think so little of you because you do not paint your army that you don't even deserve regular terrain."

Exactly. Works for me.

But does it work for the SHOP OWNER who has now lost all the sales these non-painters USED to spend in his store?

I buy online, but I also pay where I play. If where I play does not want me playing there because they feel their idea of the game is superior to mine, then there's no way I'm supporting THEM.

Eric

Or....

You could charge $20/head for unpainted armies, which is used towards the purchase of a can of Army Painter, the use of which is mandatory on any unpainted models prior to game play. Make an event out of that 'stage' of the tournament alone.

Alternately, rather than penalize unpainted armies, provide bonus points for painted armies. My 40K club provides no bonus points for unpainted armies, a small bonus for armies that are about 50% painted, a mid-range bonus for almost completely painted armies, a large bonus for completely painted armies, and a cumulative bonus if you have a display board. I was very tentative to play in the local tournaments with my WIP Eldar until I was advised this was their policy.

Edit: Having a prize for best painted model/unit and most improved (either in quality or quantity of miniatures painted) also helps! My favorite system allowed players to rank their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices and had the winner of the last painting contest sit the next contest out to help others have a chance.

Have some pre qualifying-qualifying - painted armies (to the accepted tourney standard) get a bye.

Reward the painted rather than penalising the unpainted.

This is just a stupid stupid idea. Taking one group of people you don't like and making them into pariahs. How does that even come close to making it a quality event? And where does one draw the line? I don't like people who play Guard Leaf Blower armies, so I'm going to put them on open table with no terrain, and only allow them to play each other at my next tournament.

If you want people to have painted armies, fine, require it to play. But don't let people come without painted armies just to try and publicly humiliate them because you don't consider them acceptable enough to be with everyone else.

Aduro wrote:This is just a stupid stupid idea. Taking one group of people you don't like and making them into pariahs. How does that even come close to making it a quality event? And where does one draw the line? I don't like people who play Guard Leaf Blower armies, so I'm going to put them on open table with no terrain, and only allow them to play each other at my next tournament.

QFT.

I don't like people who use custom dice that are hard to read - they make the game less enjoyable. In my next tournament, everyone who uses non-standard die that have a facing are going to play a table constructed out of unwanted dice that aren't glued together so that their models will invariably fall and break and they will lose their dice and contribute to the table building. We'll all laugh behind them.

There's going to be a second set of tables too. These are for the people who are too lazy and uninterested in the hobby to make awesome conversions, which everyone knows is the most important part of the hobby. Everyone unsporting enough to not have at least one conversion on EVERY model in their army is going to play on these tables. The tables are going to be made out of empty product boxes with terrain being the same. If you're not willing to create cool minis and convert them, then you're not going to get to play on tables that have custom-built terrain either. Your standard army gets to play on the boxes that they came out of.

In short, we have another thread where someone has decided that their thoughts about what is important in this hobby outweigh everyone elses.

@OP: You want to have a quality event?

1. Write balanced missions.
2. Do not use composition scoring as part of the tournament scoring.
3. Do not assign sportsmanship scores. Instead, announce at the start that everyone is required to act like an adult and cheating or rude behavior will result in ejection from the event and public humiliation.

You're talking about hosting a tournament right? Those are your tournament needs. If you want to punish people who don't paint, then host a painting display event, where whomever has the best looking army wins their own prize. RTTs include painting as part of the scoring, and if you are so vehemently opposed to people playing in a tournament with an army that doesn't meet your appearance requirements, simply stack the scores for painting. If an RTT has an overall paint score of 20 points, make it 40 points instead, where everyone with a painted army can get most of it, but the truly exceptional ones get extra points, and the unpainted armies get so little that they can't win the tournament.

[ ]20 points: Is every model in the army painted with at least 3 colors?
[ ]10 points: Is every model in the army based/flocked?

The other 10 points are the "usual" painting requirements; display board, shading, converting, etc.

Now, anyone who shows up to play and doesn't have a painted army suffers a 30 point gap; which is a game or a game and a half depending on your scoring, and are pretty much out of the running to win. You've made a message that everyone is welcome, but preferences still apply.

But you absolutely should NOT implement segregation in your event. That's how America got black toilets and white toilets, black drinking fountains and white drinking fountains in the first place, and anyone who is going to define a class of people, label them as inferior, and TREAT them as inferior deserves to burn in hell.

@Augustus.

Damian, if you do this, I will make the trip to Denver and volunteer to play on the paper if need be.

Dashofpepper wrote:But you absolutely should NOT implement segregation in your event. That's how America got black toilets and white toilets, black drinking fountains and white drinking fountains in the first place, and anyone who is going to define a class of people, label them as inferior, and TREAT them as inferior deserves to burn in hell.

What about white supremacists?

I think te initial concept is too extremem to do much besides drive people out. It's a hobby; villify people and they will go spend their money on kayaking or whiskey or women, and leave wargaming behind them. Use the carrot, the stick is for other things than hobbies.

Dashofpepper wrote:In short, we have another thread where someone has decided that their thoughts about what is important in this hobby outweigh everyone elses.

Painted figures is important in the hobby and has been a key core component for 25 years.

You have to have standards and enforce them. If you want to allow unpainted models and proxies, then say so, but people will avoid your events as they do not wish to play against unpainted models.

Even with appearance scores, that doesn't mean everyone will be painted if they can still make a cash grab at a prize which still means I, someone who enjoys playing against painted armies and seeks out those events may still be forced to play against some unpainted army or even worse... proxies. If I showed up to an event that required 3 colors and based, I would be pissed. If I was at an event that I knew going in that the event allowed proxies or unpainted models, then it is buyer beware and I can choose to leave.

And comparing people who choose not to paint via thier own actions and comparing it to racial discrimination is insulting to the civil rights movement and the true travesties that have happened to real people. Being denied a tourney because you didn't meet the minimal effort to participate is not the same as being denied to a tourney because of your skin color.

A good event needs to set minimal rules that they are willing to enforce and then people who enjoy playing under those rules will participate and everyone will be like-minded. Setting rules and then not enforcing them makes it a bad event.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:This idea screams of "painted army elitism."

It's like you're telling the guys, "We think so little of you because you do not paint your army that you don't even deserve regular terrain."

Exactly. Works for me.

But does it work for the SHOP OWNER who has now lost all the sales these non-painters USED to spend in his store?

I buy online, but I also pay where I play. If where I play does not want me playing there because they feel their idea of the game is superior to mine, then there's no way I'm supporting THEM.

Eric

If I were a tournament player in the tourney that concern would mean less than nothing to me. There is a painting requirement. Abide by it.

Don't bring an unpainted army to a regular tournament and whine when its treated as FAIL.
Don't bring your fluffy heavy weapon free guard list to ArdBoyz and whine when its treated as FAIL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:In short, we have another thread where someone has decided that their thoughts about what is important in this hobby outweigh everyone elses.

Painted figures is important in the hobby and has been a key core component for 25 years.

You have to have standards and enforce them. If you want to allow unpainted models and proxies, then say so, but people will avoid your events as they do not wish to play against unpainted models.

Even with appearance scores, that doesn't mean everyone will be painted if they can still make a cash grab at a prize which still means I, someone who enjoys playing against painted armies and seeks out those events may still be forced to play against some unpainted army or even worse... proxies. If I showed up to an event that required 3 colors and based, I would be pissed. If I was at an event that I knew going in that the event allowed proxies or unpainted models, then it is buyer beware and I can choose to leave.

And comparing people who choose not to paint via thier own actions and comparing it to racial discrimination is insulting to the civil rights movement and the true travesties that have happened to real people. Being denied a tourney because you didn't meet the minimal effort to participate is not the same as being denied to a tourney because of your skin color.

A good event needs to set minimal rules that they are willing to enforce and then people who enjoy playing under those rules will participate and everyone will be like-minded. Setting rules and then not enforcing them makes it a bad event.

What he said. You want Ardboyz you play Ardboyz. If the tournament requires a minimum of play you do that or you don't qualify to play.

nkelsch wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:In short, we have another thread where someone has decided that their thoughts about what is important in this hobby outweigh everyone elses.

Painted figures is important in the hobby and has been a key core component for 25 years.

You have to have standards and enforce them. If you want to allow unpainted models and proxies, then say so, but people will avoid your events as they do not wish to play against unpainted models.

Even with appearance scores, that doesn't mean everyone will be painted if they can still make a cash grab at a prize which still means I, someone who enjoys playing against painted armies and seeks out those events may still be forced to play against some unpainted army or even worse... proxies. If I showed up to an event that required 3 colors and based, I would be pissed. If I was at an event that I knew going in that the event allowed proxies or unpainted models, then it is buyer beware and I can choose to leave.

And comparing people who choose not to paint via thier own actions and comparing it to racial discrimination is insulting to the civil rights movement and the true travesties that have happened to real people. Being denied a tourney because you didn't meet the minimal effort to participate is not the same as being denied to a tourney because of your skin color.

A good event needs to set minimal rules that they are willing to enforce and then people who enjoy playing under those rules will participate and everyone will be like-minded. Setting rules and then not enforcing them makes it a bad event.

So are conversions. Let's ostracize everyone who doesn't put the time and effort into making every single fig a unique model!!

And again, if he were to simply now allow unpainted figures I'd have no problem. It's the length and effort he wants to go to for the purpose of humiliating those who don't paint their things to his standard.

How is it humiliating to play on an unpainted and unattractive (but functional for game purposes) game table, if you have already voluntarily chosen to field an unpainted army?

Clearly you're not humiliated by your own failure to paint, so why would you be humiliated by the TO's action?

The choice to field an unpainted army is a violation of community norms, and detracts from the enjoyment of virtually everyone you play against. This is just making that point in an unusual and attention-catching way. I agree that it would be tiresome and impractical to do it for the whole event, but doing it in the first round could be a viable way of encouraging some of these folks to put in a little more effort.

I say you also go the other way as well. Have one or two tables with just amazing painted terrain. And have the armies with the best paint scores rotate through it.

Yeah. Just like Xmas dinner, the kids get to eat at the kids table so the grownups can interact. I could bring some god-awful paintjobs from my past to a game but still know and be respected for "at least I tried", because it improves everyone's experience when everything at least has a half-assed paint job instead of just ugly metal chess-pieces. If you don't want to meet the requirements you can play at the kiddie table with the bricks and shoe boxes and stuff... If you want to play on the cool table, bring an army worthy of it. That is my opinion on this matter. It might encourage some otherwise good players to at least make an attempt as they spend the day moving their half ass crap around the bricks and shoe boxes with the kiddies while all the armies which actually had some effort going into them get to play on the effort terrain boards. It's mean, I know, but you get out of it what you put in. Even the most basic attempt, like spraying all your dark angels dark green and a cursory red gun, would be acceptable to me. Not respected, but respectable that at least you tried.

Really? You don't see how setting one select group of people aside, demonstrating that you don't think they're as good as everyone else, and drawing attention to them in an unusual way is at all public humiliation?

It's purposeful and public ridicule because they don't have the time to paint everything or find it part of their personal enjoyment.

Dashofpepper wrote:
But you absolutely should NOT implement segregation in your event. That's how America got black toilets and white toilets, black drinking fountains and white drinking fountains in the first place, and anyone who is going to define a class of people, label them as inferior, and TREAT them as inferior deserves to burn in hell.

We're talking about a behavior characteristic here, not a genetic trait (like race). I doubt people who have unpainted armies are born with a trait that makes them not paint their armies. They CHOOSE not to paint it. Which is fine. They are free to do so. But in turn it is okay for a tournament organizer to CHOOSE to have rules penalizing them.

Aduro wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:In short, we have another thread where someone has decided that their thoughts about what is important in this hobby outweigh everyone elses.

Painted figures is important in the hobby and has been a key core component for 25 years.

You have to have standards and enforce them. If you want to allow unpainted models and proxies, then say so, but people will avoid your events as they do not wish to play against unpainted models.

Even with appearance scores, that doesn't mean everyone will be painted if they can still make a cash grab at a prize which still means I, someone who enjoys playing against painted armies and seeks out those events may still be forced to play against some unpainted army or even worse... proxies. If I showed up to an event that required 3 colors and based, I would be pissed. If I was at an event that I knew going in that the event allowed proxies or unpainted models, then it is buyer beware and I can choose to leave.

And comparing people who choose not to paint via thier own actions and comparing it to racial discrimination is insulting to the civil rights movement and the true travesties that have happened to real people. Being denied a tourney because you didn't meet the minimal effort to participate is not the same as being denied to a tourney because of your skin color.

A good event needs to set minimal rules that they are willing to enforce and then people who enjoy playing under those rules will participate and everyone will be like-minded. Setting rules and then not enforcing them makes it a bad event.

So are conversions. Let's ostracize everyone who doesn't put the time and effort into making every single fig a unique model!!

And again, if he were to simply now allow unpainted figures I'd have no problem. It's the length and effort he wants to go to for the purpose of humiliating those who don't paint their things to his standard.

Well it certainly is better than my idea of beating all the unpainted minis with a hammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aduro wrote:Really? You don't see how setting one select group of people aside, demonstrating that you don't think they're as good as everyone else, and drawing attention to them in an unusual way is at all public humiliation?

It's purposeful and public ridicule because they don't have the time to paint everything or find it part of their personal enjoyment.

yes its public humiliation. Thats the idea. Again you're assuming we think thats a bad thing.

Aduro wrote:Really? You don't see how setting one select group of people aside, demonstrating that you don't think they're as good as everyone else, and drawing attention to them in an unusual way is at all public humiliation?

It's purposeful and public ridicule because they don't have the time to paint everything or find it part of their personal enjoyment.

It doesn't have to be everything, but I have played against a dreadnought that was just feet glued to a base. There has to be some kind of standard. Isn't it public ridicule in the first place to bring half-ass stuff like that to a competative setting in the first place? They can still be part of the tournament, but the 'good' tables get the 'good' armies, while the chesspiece armies get the chesspiece terrian boards. I don't really see the problem. If someone has no issue with the aesthetic of the game, why would they care if they were shoving their game pieces around a big elaborate castle or around a box that says 'nike' on the side?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just another thought: we ostracise people who come with a prepainted army off of ebay but absolutely no clue how to play, don't know their own codex, and still want to participate. This isn't a carnival game for a stuffed teddy bear thing, it takes work to learn, to participate. If someone shows up clueless with a beautiful army, he would be shunned (not necessarily socialy, but as far as the game goes) for being no fun to play against. People go to tournaments to compete, not to explain rules. There's plenty of kitchen floor space at home if you don't want to put some effort into your labor of love. I guess I could enter my neighbor's 5 yr old son who just likes my 'cool spacemen' too and wouldn't be able to tell a Carnifex from a Lascannon. I doubt if anyone would relish getting matched up with him either. It IS elitist, but it really doesn't take much just to do the basics.

If you don't want people without fully painted armies to play, then just require the tournament to have fully painted armies. I've said repeatedly that I would be fine with that. It's this passive aggressive bull crap where you're going to let them come, but then tell them you don't think they're as good as everyone else that's just stupid childish behavior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, so you shun new players too, just because they're able to afford expensive armies from the start, great way to build the hobby.

Aduro wrote:If you don't want people without fully painted armies to play, then just require the tournament to have fully painted armies. I've said repeatedly that I would be fine with that. It's this passive aggressive bull crap where you're going to let them come, but then tell them you don't think they're as good as everyone else that's just stupid childish behavior.

+eleventy-one

This is PRECISELY how it should be handled, if you're trying to be mature about it.

Eric

Well they do have separate categories for 'young bloods' in painting competitions. Is this really so different?

It isn't ostracising people who don't know how to play. I'd be happy to teach them, but not at a tournament. There's plenty of time for home games before you introduce them to the big bad word of competative hobbyists.

You have two choices:

*Enforced Basic standards

or

*Deterrence and punishments

I prefer basic standards being enforced. But if the venue prohibits turning anyone away with basic standards, all that is left is deterrents. I think people feel deterrents or punishments are fundamentally unfair... But some think any restriction is unfair. basically anything that impacts them is unfair.

I prefer 3 colors and based because I find the contrast of basic paint makes the game smoother and models easier to play against. I find unpainted minis hard to see what things are and slows down the game as well as really really really impacts the enjoyment of the game. Unpainted minis are basically as hard to deal with as proxies and makes the whole thing a cluster-F***.

If the minimal standard is enforced, I can show up knowing what to expect. if no standard is enforced but people are punished, I have to make a judgement by showing up to see if this event with painting scores but allows unpainted models is 80% painted, or 10% painted and if I will spend all day playing against unpainted models and basically be the only painted army there (which has hap pend to me before)

I choose enforceable minimum standards over punishment, but it seems like some people nerdrage to stores over not having minimal standards.

Ever have to keep asking which set of grey legs glued to a base is supposed to be the Space Wolf with the flamer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still think an arts-n-crafts session for an hour would be a better idea than segregation. It encourages people to work on stuff so they can participate. Turn all those shoeboxes into castles.. finish up your model that has no arms, basecoat a squad, something... just to get people into that side of the hobby... so rather than being an ostracised 'kiddie' table, it would be a 'works in progress' table. That would in fact encourage people to get into the hobby. And the veterans can always go and offer to help and offer pointers, rules advice, painting advice between turns. If I was a little kid I would be stoked to go to that kind of event.

OK A few points:


If everyone showed up with the minimum 3 color standard there wouldn't be ANY paper tables, I would strike them and set up nice terrain instead.

I would set up N tables for round N = (number of unpainted armies)/2

There won't be any public ridicule.

I like the idea of some really nice terrain as a bonus, I am working on a cathedral for just such an idea, how about some carrot and some stick as well?

Which leads me to idea 3:

Pair round 1 by paint scores.
Use N tables of paper w N=Ua/2
Strike Paper tables round 2
Pair by points
Allow high score of painting in each pairing to pick the table by order of score best to worst in rounds 2 and 3.

?

Oh yes, and

Love ya Frazzled! Thanks for jumping in!

Aduro wrote:Really? You don't see how setting one select group of people aside, demonstrating that you don't think they're as good as everyone else, and drawing attention to them in an unusual way is at all public humiliation?

It's purposeful and public ridicule because they don't have the time to paint everything or find it part of their personal enjoyment.

Setting aside the main discussion in this thread, you have to admit that the above isn't really an excuse given the painting tools and products accessible to us and a 3-color standard as a goal.

Back OT, I think the idea is funny, but personally I wouldn't want to implement it and create bad feelings/negativity at the event.

I'd like to play on that table actually.

The Last Stand on Demon World Craptacula

MagickalMemories wrote:This idea screams of "painted army elitism."

It's like you're telling the guys, "We think so little of you because you do not paint your army that you don't even deserve regular terrain."

OK, I started this thread to get input and I appreciate hearing what you all think.

Thanks for the comments, I like to see the discussion continue and hear from more folks.

Nothing is planned I'm considering a variety of ideas.

I will be honest and say I agree with you, that is what I am saying "We think so little of you because you do not paint your army that you don't even deserve regular terrain." but understand, beyond the paper table round there is not going to be any descrimination mockery I wouldn't stand for that sort of thing in an event I ran, and I wouldn't do it.

I don't really want the thread to degerate into a discussion of the merrits of painting, so I will just make 3 simple points:

If you didn't paint your army why would unpainted terrain bother you?
Isn't it worse to tell people with unpainted armies they can't even come at all, that's really segregation?
Any 3 colors on any model isn't my standard, it's a common community standard, and in effect this event would be removing it actually.

Highest score in painting gets to pick the table eh? Not a bad idea... incentive without ostracising... So if you bring an army of greys you can expect the shoebox table, If you bring a 3 color you might get to play on the cool cathedral table?

Aduro wrote:Really? You don't see how setting one select group of people aside, demonstrating that you don't think they're as good as everyone else, and drawing attention to them in an unusual way is at all public humiliation?

It's purposeful and public ridicule because they don't have the time to paint everything or find it part of their personal enjoyment.

1. I don’t think it’s cruelty or a judgment on them as human beings. You and Dash are dramatizing the issue by making it out to be denigration of human beings, which it is not.
2. Even if it were mildly unpleasant, it is not necessarily inappropriate to point out to them in this way that they are impinging on everyone else’s enjoyment, and that they are basically “mooching” visual enjoyment from the work put in by others- opponents who paint their own armies, and organizers/store owners who make and paint nice terrain. Maybe having the point made in this new and unusual way would get through to some folks and make them realize that the visual aspect of the game IS important to them after all, and that they are being selfish by deriving pleasure from that while expecting everyone else to go to the effort without doing so themselves.

We all know it will never be me, but I'm really liking the idea of the highest paint score getting to pick the table.