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IG_urban wrote:
fail, fail, and fail. I was never shocked at people's responses, I was merely defending, position. From the beginning, I was being called a bigot and ignorant,

Please cite these accusations.

IG_urban wrote:
I am just retaliating somewhat more civilized. I think you are too oblivious at your own bland expressions of intelligence trying to call me out as...

So, you're being more civilized, but other people are blind to their own civilized criticism?

IG_urban wrote:
...and I am trying to be somewhat neutral...

No, you aren't. The thread title says you aren't. You made up your mind before you hit 'submit'.

the card thing is just out and out blatant stupidity. This has expanded a bit beyond the card now.

IG_urban wrote:
But they are using race as a catalyst when they don't need to, so really, it is NOT what they are saying.

No, its exactly what they're saying. You even called 'them' a group and said 'they' should stand up for themselves more. Who were you referring to if not the people involved in the NAACP; including me, a white guy whom they gave scholarship money to?

My comments above were in relation to this, quoted from the article...

But that's not what some people heard.

"You hear the 'r' in there. 'Whores,' not, 'holes.' The 'r' is in there," said Minnie Hatley of the Los Angeles NAACP.

Hallmark sent Eyewitness News a transcript of what the card says, but Hatley says that the actual audio raises questions.

Ms. Hartley claims to have heard an "R" in the middle of the word "hole".

As for the "watch your backs" line.. the preceeding line is, from what I heard, "And you planets..."

So given the text and the actual dialog, as well as the presentation of the actual card.... and add in the fact that the card has been on the market for 3 years.
This is people looking for a reason to be distressed.

No it hasn't.

Did they over react? Quite possibly. But you seem intent on claiming racism exists because there are those trying to stop it. Technically, you are right, as racism ultimately is just a word for a set of behaviour. But calling a Cow a Pig doesn't stop the beast actually being there. They clearly felt (rightly or wrongly) that the card was degrading to a certain element of the populace, and took steps to correct this. More power to them. Whereas are you do indeed seem to telling them to just shut up and be oppressed.

dogma wrote:

IG_urban wrote:
fail, fail, and fail. I was never shocked at people's responses, I was merely defending, position. From the beginning, I was being called a bigot and ignorant,

Please cite these accusations.

read the topic, please.

dogma wrote:

IG_urban wrote:
I am just retaliating somewhat more civilized. I think you are too oblivious at your own bland expressions of intelligence trying to call me out as...

So, you're being more civilized, but other people are blind to their own civilized criticism?

no, once again I am just defending my position.

dogma wrote:

IG_urban wrote:
...and I am trying to be somewhat neutral...

No, you aren't. The thread title says you aren't. You made up your mind before you hit 'submit'.

In the original post, no, I was not. But like I have already stated, we have expanded a bit beyond that, and that is the situation I am referring to; mainly our ongoing debate. Perhaps neutral was not the right word, but I already used civilized in the same paragraph and it felt wrong to say it twice...feth it....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:

IG_urban wrote:
But they are using race as a catalyst when they don't need to, so really, it is NOT what they are saying.

No, its exactly what they're saying. You even called 'them' a group and said 'they' should stand up for themselves more. Who were you referring to if not the people involved in the NAACP; including me, a white guy whom they gave scholarship money to?

dude stop picking apart my wording, it makes you look sad and silly. stick to the point at hand.

There are good and bad apples in all races. People need to see each other as individuals and not race.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:No it hasn't.

Did they over react? Quite possibly. But you seem intent on claiming racism exists because there are those trying to stop it. Technically, you are right, as racism ultimately is just a word for a set of behaviour. But calling a Cow a Pig doesn't stop the beast actually being there. They clearly felt (rightly or wrongly) that the card was degrading to a certain element of the populace, and took steps to correct this. More power to them. Whereas are you do indeed seem to telling them to just shut up and be oppressed.

I am not saying that at all. Kindly stop putting words in my mouth. I am telling them to stick to actual matters of hate and intolerance, not searching for petty reasons to pull the race card to make their lawyers more money and draw excessive PC attention to themselves.

please, read this, that I am posting again...

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/31/Tampabay/Is_the_NAACP_still_re.shtml



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Yak9UT wrote:There are good and bad apples in all races. people need to see each other as individuals and not race

my point exactly. the NAACP and Al Sharpton etc keep bringing race into the subject....gawd, at lease somebody gets it.

IG_urban wrote:
read the topic, please.

So you, the the originator of the thread, called yourself a bigot in the topic line that you wrote?

IG_urban wrote:
no, once again I am just defending my position.

Defending one's position is not tacit to civilized criticism. You seem to enjoy moving the goal posts.

IG_urban wrote:
In the original post, no, I was not. But like I have already stated, we have expanded a bit beyond that, and that is the situation I am referring to; mainly our ongoing debate. Perhaps neutral was not the right word, but I already used civilized in the same paragraph and it felt wrong to say it twice...feth it....

Civilized was also the wrong word. By your own admission this thread has not been civilized.

You've taken a position, and you're defending it. There is no shame in that, and I commend your resolve given the response. I don't agree with you, but I commend your resolve.

IG_urban wrote:
dude stop picking apart my wording, it makes you look sad and silly. stick to the point at hand.

I don't know what the point at hand is, given our present conversation. You don't like the NAACP, I know this, but I don't know why that is the case. At least outside what seem to be illogical associations.

this is dribbling into idiocracy, on all sides...I am tired and this is getting locked anyway....call it giving up, you can take the win, we are not going to agree, and you can think whatever you want about me.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:No it hasn't.

Did they over react? Quite possibly.... They clearly felt (rightly or wrongly) that the card was degrading to a certain element of the populace, and took steps to correct this. More power to them.

Even if they correctly heard the word "whores" the line is still... "and you black holes (or whores), you are so ominous... and you planets, watch your backs."
So I would suppose the card isnt just insulting to black women but Large Black Women. Better call the President, this is a weighty issue.

Maybe if the NAACP reps in L.A. were better educated they would have not only heard the card correctly, but would have understood the word "ominous"

having a menacing or threatening aspect.

and realized that it really was about the Universe.

dogma wrote: Who were you referring to if not the people involved in the NAACP; including me, a white guy whom they gave scholarship money to?

Did you take tanning pills to qualify for that scholarship

This thread reminds me of the band refusing to abandon the Titanic...

I just thought of something:

A thread was started with a provacative, controversial title with link.

The OP then rolls out swinging against "liberals" and "trolls" that disagree.

The OP has a tenuous grasp on the difference between facts, opinions, and arguable assertions.

Is the OP Frazz's alt account?


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Seriously, if you're simply trying to point out that the NAACP, or more accuratly, that local chapters of the NAACP do their share of race baiting, than I agree.

I think where we'd disagree is in the nature of racism in this country, particularly in it's effects on the races. All the racism against whites doesn't seem to hurt whites in any tangible way, while racism against black people still is a factor (not the only one) in the huge differences in every measurable quality of life factor between white and black.

If you think black people get bank loans less often, or are arrested far more often, or receive harsher sentences, or are under represented in nearly all professional and governmental ranks because of the NAACP, then I'm going to have to strongly disagree.

It is interesting that Frazzled hasn't locked this yet. Very interesting.

The thread is actually pretty civil. I think the OP is getting a bit heated, and my and ahtman's discussion was a little tense, but I'm not seeing any real reason to lock it.

There's an intersting conversation buried here, which is asking to what extent a race is responsible for the racism against that. The OP seems to hold, and I'm not sure about this, either that black people are discriminated against because of actions like the card protest, or that the card protest is itself somehow racist against whites, and that the NAACP is an example of the most virulent racism in the country today.

Polonius wrote:The thread is actually pretty civil. I think the OP is getting a bit heated, and my and ahtman's discussion was a little tense, but I'm not seeing any real reason to lock it.

There's an intersting conversation buried here, which is asking to what extent a race is responsible for the racism against that. The OP seems to hold, and I'm not sure about this, either that black people are discriminated against because of actions like the card protest, or that the card protest is itself somehow racist against whites, and that the NAACP is an example of the most virulent racism in the country today.

I guess what I'm driving at is that some of the views expressed here are... questionable, to say the least. Way more so than in recent threads on Israeli issues.


We all know how THOSE turned out.

There's a fine line between willingly blind to reality (that racism is still pervasive in this country and that groups can and should exist to fight it) and being racist.

Race is a very tricky issue in the US, and one of the ways a lot of white people can sleep at night is to convince themself that "well, at least everything is ok now." I'm not sure it's sinister, merely a product of a somewhat self centered world view.

I find the idea of a bunch of white people walking around going 'yeah, there's no racism anymore - everything's cool now' totally hilarious.

At least, it would be if it wasn't so tragic.

it's important to distinguish between racism (the process of assigning attributes to entire races, not individuals), discrimination (deny people things based on race), and inequality (people having fewer of things in some races than others).

I'd argue that all three still exist, and are at least somewhat linked. The OP is going to have a hard time explaining the inequalities in the US today between black and white (an inequality not shared with any immigrant minority, including recent african immigrants, btw), without either using race itself, or the the history of racism, as a reason. There's a very small needle by which a person could argue that current African American culture is self defeating and destructive, and that leads to lower achievement, but that's probably not enough to cover everything.

The other thing I find a bit disturbing, as Dogma relentlessly pointed out above, is that the OP has engaged in nearly every internet debating tactic: claiming opinion as fact without any citations or back up, accusing others of being trolls without any real provocation, calling out people as ideologue, moving the goal posts, etc.

These things don't immediately disqualify a person's thesis, but it does make it more likely that the person can't defend the thesis on it's own merits.


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IG_urban wrote:
"If I was offended by every huffy white guy who thinks he's a persecuted minority" that had better not be directed at me. You have no idea who I am. Try not acting closed-minded liberal for once.

Are you not a white guy? If so, I apologize for the error. If you are, well, then i stand by the remark.

Polonius wrote:There's a very small needle by which a person could argue that current African American culture is self defeating and destructive, and that leads to lower achievement, but that's probably not enough to cover everything.

It also neglects the fact that the social problems which (it could be argued) are self defeating and destructive to African-American culture, are rarely exclusive to African-Americans - unless one believes that they are inherent ethnic characteristics, which is a monstrous thing to think, and completely unsupported by any proof.

Albatross wrote:

Polonius wrote:There's a very small needle by which a person could argue that current African American culture is self defeating and destructive, and that leads to lower achievement, but that's probably not enough to cover everything.

It also neglects the fact that the social problems which (it could be argued) are self defeating and destructive to African-American culture, are rarely exclusive to African-Americans - unless one believes that they are inherent ethnic characteristics, which is a monstrous thing to think, and completely unsupported by any proof.

It also ignores the fact that educated black people still earn (slightly) less than comparable white people:

http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/47_four-year_collegedegrees.html

the article is a bit dry, and uses info from 2003, but it shows that not even education can erase the income gap.

My two cents. Racism exists because there are still enough people ridiculous enough to assign blame to all the different groups and still feel we are all too different to just unite. Call me naive but I'm sick of all this "African-American, Latin-American, etc" Why the feth do we need these racial subcategories? Why can't we just be Americans? Unless someone asks where a person's ancestry is from why should it even matter?

My God, we're all just people, no group is better or worse than anyone else. Blacks, Whites, Gays, Hispanic, Asian, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Man, Woman... why are we all so bent out of shape? Yes, we should learn the history so we don't repeat it but using that same history as an excuse to keep this kind of outrageous stupidity occurring in perpetuity is the worst mistake we could do.

Slavery is a horrible mistake that has been made innumerable times throughout history. However, if we never let it go we'll never, EVER be united as a people. As long as there are those whose entire existence is dedicated to bringing up racial differences and finding offense at the slightest provocation I fear this topic will never end. If we never let it go I shudder to think how long we'll fight with each other. Will 100 years from now it still be this same issue?

I'm not so stupid to believe that these deeply ingrained hatreds and preconceptions can go away overnight, but I'll put myself as an example. I was born and raised in South Carolina and my family (God I love them) had some deeply ingrained misconceptions, never to the point of being racist but there's still the "southern slant" to their thinking. I grew up that way, same against gays. I never once used the offensive language or even considered acting out against them but there was still a certain "wariness". That all changed when I went to college and enrolled in their theatre program. I was bombarded by homosexuality and so many different racial groups that I felt that I would drown. I didn't. Instead I surfaced with a much broader understanding of my fellow humans and I could be comfortable around anyone.

I sincerely hope that everyone could have this kind of life-changing experience and that we could let it all go. Pouring out mountains of evidence of lower paying jobs and the like and someone will counter it with "Racial quotas" and other such nonsense. I tell you this, as long as we divide ourselves there can be no healing. As long as there is an NAACP and a KKK, or a Miss Black America or a Miss White America. Hell, even calling a TV network Black Entertainment just proves how far we have yet to come.

Personally I'd love to take every hate-mongerer from the KKK to Al Queda and drop them on a small island with a cache of guns and say "Go nuts fellas". So they could hate and kill to their evil little heart's content and leave the rest of us to move on with our lives.

Bigotry exists in every group in the world today, someone, somewhere perpetuates it. Be it a terror bombing in Israel or Iraq to just a 5 page article argument on Dakka Dakka. (that is not calling ANYONE on here a racist, please don't take it that way, I've got love for all my Dakkaites)

Sorry for the soapbox I'm just so tired of the constant back and forth. Instead of trying to assign blame, let's please all just come together and figure out a way to stop it.

-Sandman

Just to add fuel to the fire or perhaps water to this already sinking Titanic I have to agree with the OP on a lot of things.

Liberals/leftists/humanitarians/sympathizers/whatever they want to call themselves think it's justified that the NAACP and/or minorities play the race card whenever possible. My question is why does everything that minorities don't like/agree with have to be racist? If I don't shake hands with a minority it's because I'm racist. If I don't want to sit next to a minority on the bus I'm racist. If I refuse to let a minority into my store (if I owned one) I'm racist. Why can't I refuse to shake the hands of a minority because his hand is covered in feces? Why can't my reason for not sitting next to a minority is because he stinks?

Here in Mn the Native Americans are some of the most racist people I've had the displeasure of meeting which is ironic because they also live better than most people in Mn. It must be a hard life getting a tribal check, welfare and the "government owes us oppressed people" checks.

The truth is Dogma, and it comes as no surprise that you can't see it, is that if some white dude(s)/woman(en) wanted to start a group called the NAAWP or the White Tigers they would be sued, attacked and called racists by 99% of minorities and for sure Al Sharpton and JJ themselves. The Native Americans here in Mn love to wear shirts with "Native Pride" silkscreened/printed on the front. If I had a tshirt made saying "White Pride" I'd be jumped at every bar, the mall and anywhere else I went. I'd be called racist by all the liberal store owners in the state and probably even refused admission by some into their businesses.

I'm sorry if certain people with certain viewpoints can't see the hypocrisy of minorities playing the race card for every reason known to man, fathomable or infathomable. Maybe if more of these minority groups and minorities stopped to think "maybe whitey doesn't like me because I stink or because I'm an donkey-cave" instead of "whitey doesn't like me because I'm black".

Al Sharpton and JJ think the AZ immigration law is racist; Al and JJ and many other minorities think black conservatives are sellouts and Uncle Toms.

Racism exists on both sides but to pretend that the NAACP doesn't ex-acerbate the problem with idiotic claims of racism where they don't exist is willful ignorance

Fateweaver wrote:Just to add fuel to the fire or perhaps water to this already sinking Titanic I have to agree with the OP on a lot of things.

Liberals/leftists/humanitarians/sympathizers/whatever they want to call themselves think it's justified that the NAACP and/or minorities play the race card whenever possible. My question is why does everything that minorities don't like/agree with have to be racist? If I don't shake hands with a minority it's because I'm racist. If I don't want to sit next to a minority on the bus I'm racist. If I refuse to let a minority into my store (if I owned one) I'm racist. Why can't I refuse to shake the hands of a minority because his hand is covered in feces? Why can't my reason for not sitting next to a minority is because he stinks?

Ah, here we go...

If you don't shake hands with a member of a minority race due to their race, then you are a racist.

If you don't want to sit next to someone on the bus due to the colour of their skin, then you are a racist.

If you refuse someone access to your shop due to racial heritage, then you are a racist.

No sane individual would question your refusal to shake someone's hand if it was covered in poo. Good grief, fartweaver that was poor even for you.

Your comparisons are childish and illogical. Quelle surprise...

Extreme examples but there is someone out there who would claim I refused to be civil on racial grounds.

My point is 99% of the time when a minority is gak on for any reason OTHER than race it IS because he/she is minority and so therefore it must be racial hatred.

Perhaps over in GB the racism isn't as obvious as it is here but IME the minorities are the biggest racists I've ever come across.

Why does it have to matter what race you are? Black people make fun of whites, and vice versa. If a white guy kills a black guy because he is black, it`s rascism and a hate crime, no matter what motive he has! And aren`t all crimes caused by hate, not only crimes against black people? Half the jews in the world (or in Europe, im not sure...Anyway 6 million) were killed, but people make jew jokes all the time.
Rascism is looking down on a race and thinking of all people within that race are lesser people. Please remember that.
(rant over)
OT, i think it`s ignorant of the NAACP to call the makers of the card rascist. they aren`t.

Fateweaver wrote:Extreme examples but there is someone out there who would claim I refused to be civil on racial grounds.

My point is 99% of the time when a minority is gak on for any reason OTHER than race it IS because he/she is minority and so therefore it must be racial hatred.

Perhaps over in GB the racism isn't as obvious as it is here but IME the minorities are the biggest racists I've ever come across.

I live in a rough area of Bristol, the minorities here are barely minority, they are not different coloured nationals from several generations, they are often recently arrived into the country. The most notable are the Somalians. I am a 'lefty' as you know but have found those I've encountered to be abrupt, rude, pushy and antagonistic from the get go. That's not an issue of the colour of their skin, but of the culture they are from.

As to racism on the whole in the UK, it's a very real issue, in a small and heavily populated island, rest assured race and especially immigration are very strong topics.

I will certainly admit there is an element amongst racial lobbying groups and liberal white supporters of such, that talk directly from their arses and can't wait to blame some woe on skin colour, even whilst demonstrating against extreme white nationalistic bodies in the UK like the National Front and Combat 18, I would find myself arguing with some white girl with a double barrel name and beads in her hair who was crying out that 'only the white man brings such cruelty and hate'.

But, the fact remains that racism is still with us and still strongly felt by the ignorant. The big difference is it is now accepted as wrong by most of society. Whilst the tale the OP presented shows a potentially ludicrous case of 'overbombing' the issue in the wrong area, hate crimes against minorities exists all over the world, because it's a part of the uglier side of human nature to focus on what is different rather than what is the same.

I mean, a girl was kicked to death in a british park a little while ago for being a goth, just a fashion code. Imagine then the feelings towards someone with different coloured skin or accent or mannerism. It has been again surfacing here in the UK principally towards immigrants.

It's not on to just point at this fairly ludicrous example of political correctness in the original post and say 'there's no racism, it's just people like this fuelling the fire'.

To be fair MGS, I think that might the one thing both sides of the fence get better in the UK than the US, that whilst I might think you are a product of a culture I find unpleasent, that is not in itself racism. For example, I don't have any time for mysoginistic arseholes, and yet some cultures seem to promote that. If I have a problem with someone from said culture, it's not about where they are from, as the attitude itself.

I, and MGS have something in common (other than Warhammer). I too live in an area where the minorities outnumber the caucasians and it gets really old and tiring when the ones crying the most about racism are the biggest culprits and most definately milk the system for all it's worth concerning entitlement and benefits.