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I am a big fan of Nathan Fluger his Ork Defense Force articles are all good reads, even tho I couldn't see myself using his play style.

KingCracker wrote:Call it ignorance all you want. As Ive stated more then a few times, if I played like a complete moron and charged my trukk mobs at units that would pulverize them, then yea your totally correct. But calling me ignorant because you cant come up with something other then "you charge them at this impossible to beat unit" or your Tau are gods on the table top, is fine by me mate. Have at it.

You are ignorant because you don't know what others are talking about, and you don't know what you are talking about.

You trukks mobs will NOT EVEN charge at anything because everything will be on foot within a turn (read my earlier post, I won't repeat myself). As I have shown statiscally, my Tau don't even have to be good/optimized. Mass trukks is just silly.
Your comment "if I played like a complete moron and charged my trukk mobs at units that would pulverize them" is just silly as well because ANYTHING WILL pulverize trukks :-).

I used Tau as an example because in my opinion, IG or Space Wolves will be more devastating. I used the weaker example to prove my point.

You keep bringing up the KFF. If you read my previous post, I have ALREADY taken into account KFF saves. You proved your ignorance once again.

Until you show me the math or explain how a mass of trukks CAN survive a turn of shooting (like the way I did PROPERLY AND COHERENTLY in my previous post), you ll look ignorant to everyone.

DarthSpader wrote:im sticking with my trukk list. it works well for me and ive hardley lost a game with that build. granted sometimes the boys end up on foot, and the trukks get wasted more often then not, but they usualy get to within charge range where i need them.

Hardly lost a game? Ok, I shall not assume your opponents are noob. But I m game to play your "mass trukk" ork list on Vassal, ANYTIME.
"Sometimes" is an understatement. ALL your boys will ALWAYS end up on foot on turn 1, IF your opponent is AT LEAST an average player - I ve shown you the math. Maybe there is something I didnt see. Prove me wrong with YOUR MATH, and elaborate in detail.

The BLood if Kittens post is SILLY. Apart from the rhino costing the same and having an AV value 1 higher than the trukks, there are differences between the Marine army and the Ork army that needs to be pointed out :-

If you are fielding mass trukks, chances are you are mostly assault oriented. You cant afford to lose all your trukks within a turn simply because you NEED to assault. Marines on the other hand, are mainly a shooty army (they CAN assault of course, I m just saying they have greater shooting capability). Go ahead and destroy the rhinos with your lootas. The marine player CAN AFFORD to lose all his rhinos, they DON'T necessarily need to assault. You on the other hand, are bound to lose if ALL your assault element is on foot...

Davicus wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Call it ignorance all you want. As Ive stated more then a few times, if I played like a complete moron and charged my trukk mobs at units that would pulverize them, then yea your totally correct. But calling me ignorant because you cant come up with something other then "you charge them at this impossible to beat unit" or your Tau are gods on the table top, is fine by me mate. Have at it.

You are ignorant because you don't know what others are talking about, and you don't know what you are talking about.

You trukks mobs will NOT EVEN charge at anything because everything will be on foot within a turn (read my earlier post, I won't repeat myself). As I have shown statiscally, my Tau don't even have to be good/optimized. Mass trukks is just silly.
Your comment "if I played like a complete moron and charged my trukk mobs at units that would pulverize them" is just silly as well because ANYTHING WILL pulverize trukks :-).

I used Tau as an example because in my opinion, IG or Space Wolves will be more devastating. I used the weaker example to prove my point.

You keep bringing up the KFF. If you read my previous post, I have ALREADY taken into account KFF saves. You proved your ignorance once again.

Until you show me the math or explain how a mass of trukks CAN survive a turn of shooting (like the way I did PROPERLY AND COHERENTLY in my previous post), you ll look ignorant to everyone.

I'll also add a few points here as well.

Orks who do not get to go first against superior firepower bases that armies like Tau and IG present will invariably die horribly, even if we do take Battlewagons.

Statistically, we are reducing the number of targets to shoot down when we go from say the extreme of 9 Trukks (and 3 more transports if you want to eat up Heavy slots as well) to 3 Battlewagons and maybe 1-2 Trukks. Granted, you are presenting an AV facing of 14 versus 10, but the concentration Ork players have done to pay for quality armor can be eliminated by attacks to Side and Rear armor. And many armies have ways to reduce or eliminate any cover saves we may get for our vehicles (Markerlights from Tau, Orders from IG).

Davicus, the biggest problem I see here is that you are not wrong, but neither is KingCracker. Excessive firepower will smoke a Trukk list, but any mechanzied ork list is going to be prone to elimination and tabling if they have poor LOS issues or the player is a poor tactician and does not hide his armor reasonably.

Assuming orks simply use just Trukks and nothing else for vehicles and targets, a pure Trukk list can be eliminated rather fast. A smart ork player will mix in Deffkoptas and Warbuggies with Twin-linked Rokkits to offer alternate targets for an enemy to shoot.

KingCracker's list for Trukks can be good, as Trukks are a fast transport and are akin to Dark Eldar Raiders in the sense that massive numbers of transports can overwhelm lists not packing long range weaponry that can take down a huge number of targets within 2 turns. However, in the case versus Tau and Dark Eldar and IG, the firepower these lists can bring will eliminate an Ork army if that Ork army cannot go first.

But again, it comes down to the boiled points stated before:

1. Trukk player has to be a moron to make the list absolutely horrible.
2. Firepower based lists will eat Ork trukks (and mech orks in general).
3. Going first is key for the Orks to succeed.

EDIT: Here is Dash's post-battle report regarding a similar circumstance. He faced IG massed firepower, went second, and got torched:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300212.page

DOUBLE EDIT: The mission and conditions versus his army were stacked either way, but the withering load of firepower that IG brought to the table and the huge open spaces between Dash's army and his opponent with clear LOS, it did take about 3 turns to evaoprate the Ork army to a few units and broken vehicles.

WarOne wrote: Orks who do not get to go first against superior firepower bases that armies like Tau and IG present will invariably die horribly, even if we do take Battlewagons.

Wrong. Anything S7 or less cant do a thing to AV14. Reducing the effectiveness of your opponent's range of weaponry is the key.

WarOne wrote:Statistically, we are reducing the number of targets to shoot down when we go from say the extreme of 9 Trukks (and 3 more transports if you want to eat up Heavy slots as well) to 3 Battlewagons and maybe 1-2 Trukks. Granted, you are presenting an AV facing of 14 versus 10, but the concentration Ork players have done to pay for quality armor can be eliminate by attacks to Side and Rear armor. And many armies have ways to reduce or eliminate any cover saves we may get for our vehicles (Markerlights from Tau, Orders from IG).

I don't know how your can shoot my rear armour on turn 1, or even turn 2, which are the key turns, enlighten me. I don't care if my wagon is wrecked on turn 3, for obvious reasons which you should know. Side armour, maybe yes, maybe no, depending on deployment type. But still, anything S5 or less is made obsolete. And tackling your argument on quantity of targets versus quality of targets, 3 trukks is less survivable than 1 Wagon (do your own math, but if you need help, feel free to pm me ).

WarOne wrote:Davicus, the biggest problem I see here is that you are not wrong, but neither is KingCracker. Excessive firepower will smoke a Trukk list, but any mechanzied ork list is going to be prone to elimination and tabling if they have poor LOS issues or the player is a poor tactician and does not hide his armor reasonably.

There is no way you can hide a vehicle's armour that is 10 all around :-).

WarOne wrote:Assuming orks simply use just Trukks and nothing else for vehicles and targets, a pure Trukk list can be eliminated rather fast. A smart ork player will mix in Deffkoptas and Warbuggies with Twin-linked Rokkits to offer alternate targets for an enemy to shoot.

And now I ll teach you something that is smart. Eliminate all the trukks and koptas on turn 1 (I ve shown you how many AV 10 i can make useless in a turn), buggies cant assault you :-). You can afford to eat a few rokkits for a turn, but you cant afford to be assaulted by the orks. Target priority dude.

WarOne wrote:KingCracker's list for Trukks can be good, as Trukks are a fast transport and are akin to Dark Eldar Raiders in the sense that massive numbers of transports can overwhelm lists not packing long range weaponry that can take down a huge number of targets within 2 turns. However, in the case versus Tau and Dark Eldar and IG, the firepower these lists can bring will eliminate an Ork army if that Ork army cannot go first.

List? Where?

Davicus wrote:

WarOne wrote: Orks who do not get to go first against superior firepower bases that armies like Tau and IG present will invariably die horribly, even if we do take Battlewagons.

Wrong. Anything S7 or less cant do a thing to AV14. Reducing the effectiveness of your opponent's range of weaponry is the key.

And what do lists of IG and Tau have?

*drum roll please*

Large armounts of Str 8 or higher weaponry.

We pay to eliminate small arms fire that can hurt us as mech ork players, but we are putting more eggs into our basket by taking 3 Battlewagons as opposed to 9 Trukks. We may be reducing the range of effectiveness, but are we also offering fewer targets to fire at in the first place by taking fewer transports?

WarOne wrote:Statistically, we are reducing the number of targets to shoot down when we go from say the extreme of 9 Trukks (and 3 more transports if you want to eat up Heavy slots as well) to 3 Battlewagons and maybe 1-2 Trukks. Granted, you are presenting an AV facing of 14 versus 10, but the concentration Ork players have done to pay for quality armor can be eliminated by attacks to Side and Rear armor. And many armies have ways to reduce or eliminate any cover saves we may get for our vehicles (Markerlights from Tau, Orders from IG).

Davicus wrote:I don't know how your can shoot my rear armour on turn 1, or even turn 2, which are the key turns, enlighten me. I don't care if my wagon is wrecked on turn 3, for obvious reasons which you should know. Side armour, maybe yes, maybe no, depending on deployment type. But still, anything S5 or less is made obsolete. And tackling your argument on quantity of targets versus quality of targets, 3 trukks is less survivable than 1 Wagon (do your own math, but if you need help, feel free to pm me ).

I'm not shooting your rear armor, you are shooting me in the context of my speech where I am playing the ork player and you are the opponent (Tau, IG, ect.).

Vendettas can turbo-boost a scout move and then move and shoot on their turn. IG can definately hit side armor on turn 1 if they so please, and rear armor if the Ork player moves a full 12"-13" for his move if he goes first. Tau can take Stealth Suits with Infiltrate and set up dangerously close to side and possible rear armor. There are possibilities that rear armor can be targeted. On turn 2, we can talk deep strikers and reserves. Tau Monats with Twin-linked fusion blasters can sneak behind an Ork line of BWs and plink off shots to rear armor. Marbo from IG can pop up behind units and detonate Melta bombs or demo charges. There are ways an opponent can get behind you.

If your opponent has one unit that has the ability to shoot at one unit, 2 of 3 trukks will survive the onslaught versus 1 battlewagon. Now if we are talking differences of weapon strength, then we can statistically mathhammer different scenarios versus different strengths versus the armor we have that is getting hit and find a Battlewagon will survive longer than a Trukk in most instances. And if we add more than one unit versus the three trukks or 1 BW firing at them, we are also now favoring the Battlewagon in terms of survivability more so than the Trukks.

WarOne wrote:Davicus, the biggest problem I see here is that you are not wrong, but neither is KingCracker. Excessive firepower will smoke a Trukk list, but any mechanzied ork list is going to be prone to elimination and tabling if they have poor LOS issues or the player is a poor tactician and does not hide his armor reasonably.

Davicus wrote:There is no way you can hide a vehicle's armour that is 10 all around :-).

Hide=eliminate LOS to a target. So a Trukk can hide by eliminating LOS to the unit attempting to Target it.

WarOne wrote:Assuming orks simply use just Trukks and nothing else for vehicles and targets, a pure Trukk list can be eliminated rather fast. A smart ork player will mix in Deffkoptas and Warbuggies with Twin-linked Rokkits to offer alternate targets for an enemy to shoot.

Davicus wrote:And now I ll teach you something that is smart. Eliminate all the trukks and koptas on turn 1 (I ve shown you how many AV 10 i can make useless in a turn), buggies cant assault you :-). You can afford to eat a few rokkits for a turn, but you cant afford to be assaulted by the orks. Target priority dude.

And that is if you go first. Again, I am preaching if you do go first, then yes this will happen. I did state a conditional that a Trukk army that does not go first will lose and lost horribly.

Did I not mention that Trukks will die horribly if they cannot get to go first?

WarOne wrote:KingCracker's list for Trukks can be good, as Trukks are a fast transport and are akin to Dark Eldar Raiders in the sense that massive numbers of transports can overwhelm lists not packing long range weaponry that can take down a huge number of targets within 2 turns. However, in the case versus Tau and Dark Eldar and IG, the firepower these lists can bring will eliminate an Ork army if that Ork army cannot go first.

Davicus wrote:List? Where?

KingCracker lists as his theoretical minimum as 4 Trukks for an Ork army. Since he seems to advocate taking a large number of Trukks, I am using his post from before as a flimsy outline of a "list" wherein he would place multiple Trukks into a list. He does state however he would not take an abundance of Trukks over 2000 points to a game, so this "list" does not exist above that point total.

I don't understand the hostility you have towards this argument with me. As far as I know, I am attempting to mediate two points of view towards Trukks as there can be a useful list for orks if they take a max Trukk list and we have not had sour relationships before. Theoretical mathhammering proves a Tau and IG and other superior firepower lists can demolish an Ork Trukk list and I agree, so why are you adding into the context of this debate words that appear confrontational and aggressive?

The Internet is serious business guys.

But seriously, this is about how many should belong in a certain list, and why.

Not well my army could do this blah, blah, blah. Vassal match now, blah, blah.

I'm using 2 Trukks on my Wagon Spam. Enough said.

The_Savior wrote:The Internet is serious business guys.

But seriously, this is about how many should belong in a certain list, and why.

Not well my army could do this blah, blah, blah. Vassal match now, blah, blah.

I'm using 2 Trukks on my Wagon Spam. Enough said.

At least the arguments have brought you to this conclusion. Hopefully these discussions help enhance your ability to see through various strategies and lists designed to win and see some validity it what can and cannot work.

WarOne wrote:We pay to eliminate small arms fire that can hurt us as mech ork players, but we are putting more eggs into our basket by taking 3 Battlewagons as opposed to 9 Trukks. We may be reducing the range of effectiveness, but are we also offering fewer targets to fire at in the first place by taking fewer transports?

I don't understand what is it that you are not seeing, but it appears you think greater number will make you feel better. If 3 wagons survive better than 9 trukks (which IS the case), yes I ll take 3 wagons. I m sorry, you are using the analogy of "more eggs into 1 basket" wrongly here. So wrong that I dont know how to enlighten you.

WarOne wrote:I'm not shooting your rear armor, you are shooting me in the context of my speech where I am playing the ork player and you are the opponent (Tau, IG, ect.).

So from whichever aspect you are talking about, you cant normally target the rear armour of a wagon, and therefore your argument on this is a moot one, i.e you have to handle the AV14 or AV12 - suck thumb.

WarOne wrote:Vendettas can turbo-boost a scout move and then move and shoot on their turn. IG can definately hit side armor on turn 1 if they so please, and rear armor if the Ork player moves a full 12"-13" for his move if he goes first. Tau can take Stealth Suits with Infiltrate and set up dangerously close to side and possible rear armor. There are possibilities that rear armor can be targeted. On turn 2, we can talk deep strikers and reserves. Tau Monats with Twin-linked fusion blasters can sneak behind an Ork line of BWs and plink off shots to rear armor. Marbo from IG can pop up behind units and detonate Melta bombs or demo charges. There are ways an opponent can get behind you.

Sorry, I am assuming you are an incompetent ork player if one of the above happens to you. I, for one, know how to refuse flank my opponent, cover footprints, etc. Also, deepstrike, reserves, etc happen on turn 2 OR even later. As oppose to your trukks being expose to say 1,750 points worth of fire on turn 1, my wagons are only taking in about 1,000 points worth of fire (the balance either being in reserve, or weapons that are unable to hurt AV12 or AV14).

WarOne wrote:If your opponent has one unit that has the ability to shoot at one unit, 2 of 3 trukks will survive the onslaught versus 1 battlewagon. Now if we are talking differences of weapon strength, then we can statistically mathhammer different scenarios versus different strengths versus the armor we have that is getting hit and find a Battlewagon will survive longer than a Trukk in most instances. And if we add more than one unit versus the three trukks or 1 BW firing at them, we are also now favoring the Battlewagon in terms of survivability more so than the Trukks.

Your argument here don't make sense to me, nor is it sound. I cant comment much.

WarOne wrote:Hide=eliminate LOS to a target. So a Trukk can hide by eliminating LOS to the unit attempting to Target it.

Hide 5 or 9 trukks? Don't waste my time by making a comment like this, seriously... ...

WarOne wrote:And that is if you go first. Again, I am preaching if you do go first, then yes this will happen. I did state a conditional that a Trukk army that does not go first will lose and lost horribly.

LOL, ok golden point made. My list does not automatically lose if I go 2nd. Really, if you make a list that will only win (or most probably win) if you go first, I wouldnt want to play 40k with you. I like challenge.

WarOne wrote:
KingCracker lists as his theoretical minimum as 4 Trukks for an Ork army. Since he seems to advocate taking a large number of Trukks, I am using his post from before as a flimsy outline of a "list" wherein he would place multiple Trukks into a list. He does state however he would not take an abundance of Trukks over 2000 points to a game, so this "list" does not exist above that point total.

Stop assuming. I didnt see any list, so won't even waste time with you make assumptions.

WarOne wrote:I don't understand the hostility you have towards this argument with me. As far as I know, I am attempting to mediate two points of view towards Trukks as there can be a useful list for orks if they take a max Trukk list and we have not had sour relationships before.

I did the math and I really dont see how any list can take out 9 trukks with a kff in one turn. My math must be off, because once you figure in rolling to hit, and the KFF save, your odds of connecting aren't that great, and even though they are easy to pen and wreck, its not a guarantee. But apparently I'm wrong?

Like I said, 9 Trukks,9 warbuggies,9 kannnons, and 2 KFFs to cover it all, are tau going to roflstomp that as easy as you say?

Snikkyd wrote:I did the math and I really dont see how any list can take out 9 trukks with a kff in one turn. My math must be off, because once you figure in rolling to hit, and the KFF save, your odds of connecting aren't that great, and even though they are easy to pen and wreck, its not a guarantee. But apparently I'm wrong?

Like I said, 9 Trukks,9 warbuggies,9 kannnons, and 2 KFFs to cover it all, are tau going to roflstomp that as easy as you say?

A couple of assumptions on your comment above.

1) I m assuming your list is 1,750, because I referenced my example to a 1,750 point army. I have shown that any decent list can make 5-6 trukks useless in a single turn. If you are taking 9 trukks at 1750, you will have nothing else. Even so, there is difficulty in trying to squeeze in 6 trukks of boys + 3 trukks of nobs into 1750. Even if you manage to do that, you don't need me to tell you that a list like that is crap, do I?
2) Your 2nd sentence made me feel like my assumption above is wrong. You are trying to play something like 2,000 or 2,500 points worth of orks against my 1750 shooty army.
So why not you make the effort and reference properly to my argument and offer your counter? Instead of trying to be lazy and hope you can bring your point across?

Yes its 2000, whats with the rage?

5-6 Trukks per turn? Yeah, with Tau, but heres the math I did correct me if its off and I'll believe you.

I took my SW list, which has 22 Missles.

22 Missles at BS4 is an average of 14 hits per turn.

They have a 2/3 chance of getting a pen. on average they will get 5 pens and 2 glances.

Pens have a 5/6 chance of effecting them.

Glances have a 1/2 chance.


They will get an average of 5 results, but thats before the KFF save, which lowers it to 2.5, which we can round to 3.

I realize this is pretty sloppy mathhammer, but it seems to be correct, and while this army had nothing but missles, it had a lot of tem, and most SW armies i see don't have more than 22 combined ML and LC shots.

Also, they aren't shooting at anything else while this is happening, and I have quite a lot of firepower elsewhere, so I honestly don't see how that list is "crap".

Snikkyd wrote:Yes its 2000, whats with the rage?

When you try to cheat by using 2k list against my 1750, I rage

Snikkyd wrote:I realize this is pretty sloppy mathhammer, but it seems to be correct

Indeed sloppy, and not correct..

Snikkyd wrote:I took my SW list, which has 22 Missles.

22 Missles at BS4 is an average of 14 hits per turn.
They have a 2/3 chance of getting a pen. on average they will get 5 pens and 2 glances.

Wrong. If you want me to insult your intelligence by calculating here for you, I ll do so. I really can.

Snikkyd wrote:Also, they aren't shooting at anything else while this is happening, and I have quite a lot of firepower elsewhere, so I honestly don't see how that list is "crap".

In the first place, you won't have nothing else or nothing much for them to shoot at. Tell me you have 6 trukks of boys + 3 trukks of a few nobs each, and I ll tell you you don't have much room left in 2,000 pt.

I can tell your math is not very good.

I just said I have 9 Warbuggies and 9 Kannons in a 2K list. Thats a lot more than nothing.

After doing the math more precisely I'm getting an average of 4-5 Trukks per turn. Happy? And please don't bother explaining the math to me.

Look, I don't use that list, I just made it up because I thought it would be interesting to play. I never intended to get in a pointless internet argument over my imaginary army, I was simply saying that I believe it has a chance against almost anyone due to pure target saturation. I has much more than the Trukks. Could I do well? Probably not, since I've never used it, but a skilled player who knows the list well could.

Your trying to insult my intelligence? Your the one who started what is turning into an internet flame war, so I'm not sure thats a good position for you.

I really couldn't care less about whether or not your completely awesome army of plastic men can beat up my theoretical one, so I'm done with this thread, seeing as I don't use trukks anyway.

Snikkyd wrote:I just said I have 9 Warbuggies and 9 Kannons in a 2K list. Thats a lot more than nothing.

You are spewing rubbish. 9 naked rokkit buggies = 315. 6 trukks of boys with ram = 912pts. 3 trukks for the nobs = 120 pts. 9 naked kannon = 180pts. Total about 1527 points. A HQ (say KFF mek) + 3 trukks of a few nobs each that cost less than 500 points? Now, stop trolling... Snikkyd, I welcome opposing views, even if they are weak. But not when you don't even bother (or is plain lazy) to even provide a proper platform for your argument. If that's the case, why bother posting anything in the first place?

Snikkyd wrote:After doing the math more precisely I'm getting an average of 4-5 Trukks per turn. Happy? And please don't bother explaining the math to me.

So you drive 4 trukks of boys into the space wolves line? Really? Go ahead and let them have you for breakfast.

Snikkyd wrote:Look, I don't use that list, I just made it up because I thought it would be interesting to play. I never intended to get in a pointless internet argument over my imaginary army, I was simply saying that I believe it has a chance against almost anyone due to pure target saturation. I has much more than the Trukks. Could I do well? Probably not, since I've never used it, but a skilled player who knows the list well could.

Then until you are the skilled player and can find a way to make mass trukks competitive, don't post mediocre stuff here, hoping anyone will be impressed.

Snikkyd wrote:seeing as I don't use trukks anyway.

Which explains the quality of your contribution.

Davicus wrote:

Snikkyd wrote:I just said I have 9 Warbuggies and 9 Kannons in a 2K list. Thats a lot more than nothing.

You are spewing rubbish. 9 naked rokkit buggies = 315. 6 trukks of boys with ram = 912pts. 3 trukks for the nobs = 120 pts. 9 naked kannon = 180pts. Total about 1527 points. A HQ (say KFF mek) + 3 trukks of a few nobs each that cost less than 500 points? Now, stop trolling... Snikkyd, I welcome opposing views, even if they are weak. But not when you don't even bother (or is plain lazy) to even provide a proper platform for your argument. If that's the case, why bother posting anything in the first place?

Snikkyd wrote:After doing the math more precisely I'm getting an average of 4-5 Trukks per turn. Happy? And please don't bother explaining the math to me.

So you drive 4 trukks of boys into the space wolves line? Really? Go ahead and let them have you for breakfast.

Snikkyd wrote:Look, I don't use that list, I just made it up because I thought it would be interesting to play. I never intended to get in a pointless internet argument over my imaginary army, I was simply saying that I believe it has a chance against almost anyone due to pure target saturation. I has much more than the Trukks. Could I do well? Probably not, since I've never used it, but a skilled player who knows the list well could.

Then until you are the skilled player and can find a way to make mass trukks competitive, don't post mediocre stuff here, hoping anyone will be impressed.

Snikkyd wrote:seeing as I don't use trukks anyway.

Which explains the quality of your contribution.

Until he realizes, everyone is a big guy on the other side of a computer screen.

We pretty much covered all we need to know, and your obnoxiousness isn't helping. But thanks for your imaginary Warhammer lists.

Also, you should see me on Vassal, I'll be happy to show you a thing or two. As long as you agree to hush-hush.

With love,
The_Savior
P.S. Waaagh!

WarOne wrote:We pay to eliminate small arms fire that can hurt us as mech ork players, but we are putting more eggs into our basket by taking 3 Battlewagons as opposed to 9 Trukks. We may be reducing the range of effectiveness, but are we also offering fewer targets to fire at in the first place by taking fewer transports?

Davicus wrote:I don't understand what is it that you are not seeing, but it appears you think greater number will make you feel better. If 3 wagons survive better than 9 trukks (which IS the case), yes I ll take 3 wagons. I m sorry, you are using the analogy of "more eggs into 1 basket" wrongly here. So wrong that I dont know how to enlighten you.

No...I am stating that 3 Battlewagons versus 9 Trukks can be potentially fatal as the crux of a list. We lost 6 targets to take better transports, so we lose numbers for better armor value. A Battlewagon list can still be defeated by an opponent.

WarOne wrote:I'm not shooting your rear armor, you are shooting me in the context of my speech where I am playing the ork player and you are the opponent (Tau, IG, ect.).

Davicus wrote:So from whichever aspect you are talking about, you cant normally target the rear armour of a wagon, and therefore your argument on this is a moot one, i.e you have to handle the AV14 or AV12 - suck thumb.

It is possible to shoot the back of a Battlewagon. Often- it is side or front armor, but you can target the back of a Battlewagon.

WarOne wrote:Vendettas can turbo-boost a scout move and then move and shoot on their turn. IG can definately hit side armor on turn 1 if they so please, and rear armor if the Ork player moves a full 12"-13" for his move if he goes first. Tau can take Stealth Suits with Infiltrate and set up dangerously close to side and possible rear armor. There are possibilities that rear armor can be targeted. On turn 2, we can talk deep strikers and reserves. Tau Monats with Twin-linked fusion blasters can sneak behind an Ork line of BWs and plink off shots to rear armor. Marbo from IG can pop up behind units and detonate Melta bombs or demo charges. There are ways an opponent can get behind you.

Davicus wrote:Sorry, I am assuming you are an incompetent ork player if one of the above happens to you. I, for one, know how to refuse flank my opponent, cover footprints, etc. Also, deepstrike, reserves, etc happen on turn 2 OR even later. As oppose to your trukks being expose to say 1,750 points worth of fire on turn 1, my wagons are only taking in about 1,000 points worth of fire (the balance either being in reserve, or weapons that are unable to hurt AV12 or AV14).

I forgive you that you assume I am an incompetent ork player. If you were to run a maximum Trukk list inside a 1750 game versus Tau, IG, ect.- how would you attempt to win?

I am detailing scenarios wherein side and rear armor can be targeted. Yes, I did agree earlier that the range of effectiveness is shortened, so not as much of your list could affect Battlewagons.

A good player can still get to your side and even rear armor, even if you are a good player.

WarOne wrote:If your opponent has one unit that has the ability to shoot at one unit, 2 of 3 trukks will survive the onslaught versus 1 battlewagon. Now if we are talking differences of weapon strength, then we can statistically mathhammer different scenarios versus different strengths versus the armor we have that is getting hit and find a Battlewagon will survive longer than a Trukk in most instances. And if we add more than one unit versus the three trukks or 1 BW firing at them, we are also now favoring the Battlewagon in terms of survivability more so than the Trukks.

Davicus wrote:Your argument here don't make sense to me, nor is it sound. I cant comment much.

I am simply outlining an argument of numbers. 2 of 3 Trukks can survive one unit shooting at them while a Battlewagon can probably survive, but if it doesn't, will not. This is in relation to talking about shooting armies. Tau and IG can field large preponderances of weaponry. Other lists will not be able to shoot down all the Trukks.

WarOne wrote:Hide=eliminate LOS to a target. So a Trukk can hide by eliminating LOS to the unit attempting to Target it.

Daviucs wrote:Hide 5 or 9 trukks? Don't waste my time by making a comment like this, seriously... ...

You can block LOS to opponents and deny them the ability to attack at range. Terrain can be used to your advantage. Trukks can be hidden from view.

WarOne wrote:And that is if you go first. Again, I am preaching if you do go first, then yes this will happen. I did state a conditional that a Trukk army that does not go first will lose and lost horribly.

WarOne wrote:LOL, ok golden point made. My list does not automatically lose if I go 2nd. Really, if you make a list that will only win (or most probably win) if you go first, I wouldnt want to play 40k with you. I like challenge.

Well, I am outlining the situation here. Ork Trukks are vulnerable to large volumes of firepower. If those ork players were to go second, there is a good chance that the trukks will be destroyed or unable to transport their cargo. Against other lists, the Ork Trukks could still compete.

WarOne wrote:
KingCracker lists as his theoretical minimum as 4 Trukks for an Ork army. Since he seems to advocate taking a large number of Trukks, I am using his post from before as a flimsy outline of a "list" wherein he would place multiple Trukks into a list. He does state however he would not take an abundance of Trukks over 2000 points to a game, so this "list" does not exist above that point total.

Davicus wrote: Stop assuming. I didnt see any list, so won't even waste time with you make assumptions.

But you have to assume in order to make an argument here. His theoretical list had multiple trukks. In fact, we are doing alot of assumption here in this debate as we are constructing the situation and the conditions present.

WarOne wrote:I don't understand the hostility you have towards this argument with me. As far as I know, I am attempting to mediate two points of view towards Trukks as there can be a useful list for orks if they take a max Trukk list and we have not had sour relationships before.

The_Savior wrote:Also, you should see me on Vassal, I'll be happy to show you a thing or two. As long as you agree to hush-hush.

Don't empty talk . Post your nick, and date and time of challenge here . I ll be happy if you really are capable of showing me something.

WarOne wrote:No...I am stating that 3 Battlewagons versus 9 Trukks can be potentially fatal as the crux of a list. We lost 6 targets to take better transports, so we lose numbers for better armor value. A Battlewagon list can still be defeated by an opponent.

9 trukks can never be potentially fatal, not when your contents are almost always footslogging. An ork list that cant assault is silly, not fatal.

WarOne wrote:It is possible to shoot the back of a Battlewagon. Often- it is side or front armor, but you can target the back of a Battlewagon.

Go freaking read properly what I said, don't give stupid comments (hint - turns).

WarOne wrote:I forgive you that you assume I am an incompetent ork player. If you were to run a maximum Trukk list inside a 1750 game versus Tau, IG, ect.- how would you attempt to win?.

I wont run such a dumb list, and therefore don't have to ATTEMPT to win. Why would I want to play at a disadvantage?.

Davicus wrote:

The_Savior wrote:Also, you should see me on Vassal, I'll be happy to show you a thing or two. As long as you agree to hush-hush.

Don't empty talk . Post your nick, and date and time of challenge here . I ll be happy if you really are capable of showing me something.

Isn't it obvious... ?

I'm on during 6AM - 2PM (Depending on personal plans.) if not...

10PM - Whenver I want to sleep. (Unless I don't feel like it.)

But answer me this... are you just competitive or a typical nerd? (There is a difference, one means you get exercise.)

Man I just LOVE adding your opinion to a tactic and instead of friendly debates or more input you get insulted for more then 2 pages
Consider this one alerted

The_Savior wrote:

Davicus wrote:

The_Savior wrote:Also, you should see me on Vassal, I'll be happy to show you a thing or two. As long as you agree to hush-hush.

Don't empty talk . Post your nick, and date and time of challenge here . I ll be happy if you really are capable of showing me something.

Isn't it obvious... ?

I'm on during 6AM - 2PM (Depending on personal plans.) if not...

10PM - Whenver I want to sleep. (Unless I don't feel like it.)

But answer me this... are you just competitive or a typical nerd? (There is a difference, one means you get exercise.)

I m competitive enough to trash you. Now, you havent gave your nick.

Also, i ll see you in vassal one hour from now.

Davicus wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Davicus wrote:

The_Savior wrote:Also, you should see me on Vassal, I'll be happy to show you a thing or two. As long as you agree to hush-hush.

Don't empty talk . Post your nick, and date and time of challenge here . I ll be happy if you really are capable of showing me something.

Isn't it obvious... ?

I'm on during 6AM - 2PM (Depending on personal plans.) if not...

10PM - Whenver I want to sleep. (Unless I don't feel like it.)

But answer me this... are you just competitive or a typical nerd? (There is a difference, one means you get exercise.)

I m competitive enough to trash you. Now, you havent gave your nick.

Also, i ll see you in vassal one hour from now.

My nick is my forum name.

However... I said if I had personal plans. Which I do... it's going to sleep.

I'll pretend to care when I'm not tired... have fun.

With love,

The_Savior

P.S. You sound sexy when you talk big. ;D

lol.

In that case, don't empty talk. Try speaking louder next time after you grow some balls. Till then, you are at best hilarious.
Talk big or not, you are always welcomed to find out .

KingCracker wrote:Man I just LOVE adding your opinion to a tactic and instead of friendly debates or more input you get insulted for more then 2 pages
Consider this one alerted

And I love the fact that instead of contributing anything constructive, you have only given silly comments thus far. Is that the best you caN do, NoobCracker?

Davicus wrote:lol.

In that case, don't empty talk. Try speaking louder next time after you grow some balls. Till then, you are at best hilarious.
Talk big or not, you are always welcomed to find out .

You realize you can't make text go loud right? Unless I CAPS LOCK...

With love,
The_Savior

P.S. Shame on you coming on to me like that, naughty boy.

ITT: Success.

The_Savior wrote:

Davicus wrote:lol.

In that case, don't empty talk. Try speaking louder next time after you grow some balls. Till then, you are at best hilarious.
Talk big or not, you are always welcomed to find out .

You realize you can't make text go loud right? Unless I CAPS LOCK...

ITT: Success.

Try harder using silly comments to hide your ignorance, kid :-)

Davicus wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Davicus wrote:lol.

In that case, don't empty talk. Try speaking louder next time after you grow some balls. Till then, you are at best hilarious.
Talk big or not, you are always welcomed to find out .

You realize you can't make text go loud right? Unless I CAPS LOCK...

ITT: Success.

Try harder using silly comments to hide your ignorance, kid :-)

Hey man, whatever helps you sleep.

You're down to the same level as me.

Again with the ignorance thing. So far from what I remember youve now insulted 3 people on here, calling all of us ignorant. Whats your deal Davicus? From what Ive read, NONE of us on here said anything to warrant such asshatery

The_Savior wrote:
You're down to the same level as me.

Attempt to associate yourself with KingCracker, that may help :-)

KingCracker wrote:Again with the ignorance thing. So far from what I remember youve now insulted 3 people on here, calling all of us ignorant. Whats your deal Davicus? From what Ive read, NONE of us on here said anything to warrant such asshatery

Instead of providing counter arguments in a coherent manner, you ve shown your foolishness posting silly comments.

Feel free to argue my points one by one. But if you are only capable of trolling, I cant help but associate you with The_Savior - IGNORANT kid.

The only use I've found for them is as a reserve unit of boys for objective claiming or protecting lootas.

Trukks are fairly pointless to me. transports dying to small arms fire coupled with their rubbish carrying capacity and the kareen rule make them a usual none starter in my lists.

You really need to stop, right now, with the snide comments and insults to other posters. If you are incapable of debating politely with the other users then it's best you don't post.

mercer wrote:Unfortunately Trukks suck for reasons mentioned. May got 18" but you cannot assault out, move 12" you can jump out but you can do that with a Battlewagon.

Units inside are too small.

Units able to take them are better in a Battlewagon, which they can take.

Honestly, do I need to go on? Trukks are fail :( Just too weak.

Trukks are also fun, cheap and characterful in speed freak lists.

Then again it depends on your motivations for playing and if you think toy soldiers are "serious business" or not.

I find the best thing is to spam them if you are gonna use them and provide too many targets to stop...