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COD has already copied halo with certain matchmaking features such as the match making user interface which is extremely similar to halo's and the new system where new items are bought instead of earned, exactly like halo reach which was out before black ops !

Purchasing things in an FPS game existed LONG before Halo Reach.

Melissia wrote:Purchasing things in an FPS game existed LONG before Halo Reach.

This. Counter Strike had a store system, and it came out on retail a year before Halo 1. Not being a huge FPS player, this is the obvious one that I can think of.

metallifan wrote:

Melissia wrote:Purchasing things in an FPS game existed LONG before Halo Reach.

This. Counter Strike had a store system, and it came out on retail a year before Halo 1. Not being a huge FPS player, this is the obvious one that I can think of.

Counter-Strike's "store system" was their game-balancing attempt.

Halo Reach's has nothing to do with game-balance. It's cosmetic.

Yep the counter strike " BUY" is for the tactical selection of weapon choice and body armour, while the halo reach one as said above me is for appearance suing points gained from campaigning and matchmaking,

FiRe SuPeRiOrItY wrote:Yep the counter strike " BUY" is for the tactical selection of weapon choice and body armour, while the halo reach one as said above me is for appearance suing points gained from campaigning and matchmaking,

Both of which are very much unlike COD.

@ Melissia: Do you really think having a female avatar will help you enjoy a game more, or relate to the character more?

From personal experience (as a white male), I've found that even if a company attempts to cater to my demographic, it utterly fails. Even if I'm playing as a white male, that's generally the only thing me and my character have in common. I'm not proficient with every imaginable weapon, I don't spout out one-liners every five minutes, I don't have any military background, I can't shrug off bullet wounds, etc.

Whenever I have the option, I prefer to play as a black male. I couldn't possibly tell you why (it might stem from my long hours playing a Paladin in Diablo II). My 'demographic' will never be catered to, because who would think to market to white people by having a black protagonist? No one.

If anything, I find the portrayal of women in videogames to be more chauvinistic than the lack of female protagonists. Women are waaaaay over-sexualized in videogames, to the point that it's almost ridiculous. There's a few rare examples where this is not the case, but these characters are generally the polar opposite of how women are portrayed in videogames, and the end result is just as wrong. There are very few women that are actually portrayed realistically.

The point I'm trying to make is; playing as 'yourself' is really not all it's cracked up to be, as you will rarely ever actually play as yourself (and what's the point in that, anyway?). There are plenty of games out there that allow you to create your own avatar. If you really feel the need to play as a female, I suggest you check them out. If a game attempted to cater to you by having a set female lead, it would fail miserably. I promise you that much.

I agree with Chrysaor.

If anything I find playing as a character of different origins to me (gender, class, ethnicity, nationality etc) is refreshing.

Chrysaor686 wrote:@ Melissia: Do you really think having a female avatar will help you enjoy a game more, or relate to the character more?

Think? From long time eperience in playing games,. I KNOW it to be true.

Mass Effect wouldn't have been as good if everyone was stuck with the exact same Shepard. Rainbow Six Vegas 2 was so much better for its customization. The good RPGs such as Neverwinter Nights and the TES series, or MMORPGs have character customization as an important feature that the game would not be as good without it. Perhaps the one saving grace of Combat Arms is its character customization. Halo Reach's customization is pretty popular too I should note, with its female avatar being quit common and it would be a lesser game without said feature.

Melissia wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:@ Melissia: Do you really think having a female avatar will help you enjoy a game more, or relate to the character more?

Think? From long time eperience in playing games,. I KNOW it to be true.

Mass Effect wouldn't have been as good if everyone was stuck with the exact same Shepard. Rainbow Six Vegas 2 was so much better for its customization. The good RPGs such as Neverwinter Nights and the TES series, or MMORPGs have character customization as an important feature that the game would not be as good without it. Perhaps the one saving grace of Combat Arms is its character customization. Halo Reach's customization is pretty popular too I should note, with its female avatar being quit common and it would be a lesser game without said feature.

Does physical appearance really make that much of a difference to you in something mainly first person?

Not judging here I'm just genuinely interested because I've never understood this viewpoint.

The good RPGs such as Neverwinter Nights and the TES series, or MMORPGs have character customization as an

corpsesarefun wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:@ Melissia: Do you really think having a female avatar will help you enjoy a game more, or relate to the character more?

Think? From long time eperience in playing games,. I KNOW it to be true.

Mass Effect wouldn't have been as good if everyone was stuck with the exact same Shepard. Rainbow Six Vegas 2 was so much better for its customization. The good RPGs such as Neverwinter Nights and the TES series, or MMORPGs have character customization as an important feature that the game would not be as good without it. Perhaps the one saving grace of Combat Arms is its character customization. Halo Reach's customization is pretty popular too I should note, with its female avatar being quit common and it would be a lesser game without said feature.

Does physical appearance really make that much of a difference to you in something mainly first person?.

Yes it is important, as it defines who you are playing as-- but more important in an FPS game is voice and audio.


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ShumaGorath wrote:

Neverwinter Nights

Say what?

Neverwinter Nights, and its various expansions (and its sequel), was AWESOME and you suck as a human being if you think otherwise.

Jokes aside, yes, I do quite seriously include NWN as a prime example of a good RPG. I'd have said Might and Magic in its stead if the game's latest iteration didn't end up in development hell and get released before it could even be properly classified as a beta. V:TM Bloodlines was released in beta as well, but at least it was finished enough that a fan patch was enough to solve its problem.

Jokes aside, yes, I do quite seriously include NWN as a prime example of a good RPG. I'd have said Might and Magic in its stead if the game's latest iteration didn't end up in development hell and get released before it could even be properly classified as a beta. V:TM Bloodlines was released in beta as well, but at least it was finished enough that a fan patch was enough to solve its pro

The games pretty well recognized in critical circles of being an example of what happens when you sacrifice everything (graphics, voice acting, plot, characterization, setting, gameplay, etc) in order to have total freedom in character creation (though really, thats not something 3.0 DND could do anyway). It hasn't held up nearly as well as it's competitors.

Melissia wrote:Think? From long time eperience in playing games,. I KNOW it to be true.

Mass Effect wouldn't have been as good if everyone was stuck with the exact same Shepard. Rainbow Six Vegas 2 was so much better for its customization. The good RPGs such as Neverwinter Nights and the TES series, or MMORPGs have character customization as an important feature that the game would not be as good without it. Perhaps the one saving grace of Combat Arms is its character customization. Halo Reach's customization is pretty popular too I should note, with its female avatar being quit common and it would be a lesser game without said feature.

I meant in terms of having a character set in stone that was female. Again, there are plenty of games where you can customize your character, and play as whatever you damn well please. However, most FPS games (as well as mostly any game that's not an RPG) have set characters, and any 'relation' you might have between you and your character is completely lost when a game uses this model, no matter their gender.

Ask yourself, honestly, how much can you relate to:




Or



Or



Or



You don't have anything in common, aside from being the same gender, do you? There's a taste of what it's like to be in the 'Target demographic'. It's completely meaningless. You might get a bit of a sense of 'gender empowerment', but that also becomes completely meaningless once you realize how over-the-top and ridiculous videogames tend to be.

Honestly, it's not something worth fighting for. Character customization is good for when you feel the need to play your own persona, but the race or gender of a set protagonist will never really matter, because you will never have much of a chance to relate to them at all.

Melissia wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:@ Melissia: Do you really think having a female avatar will help you enjoy a game more, or relate to the character more?

Think? From long time eperience in playing games,. I KNOW it to be true.

Mass Effect wouldn't have been as good if everyone was stuck with the exact same Shepard. Rainbow Six Vegas 2 was so much better for its customization. The good RPGs such as Neverwinter Nights and the TES series, or MMORPGs have character customization as an important feature that the game would not be as good without it. Perhaps the one saving grace of Combat Arms is its character customization. Halo Reach's customization is pretty popular too I should note, with its female avatar being quit common and it would be a lesser game without said feature.

The Female Avatar is so popular because the thirteen year olds won't kill you while saying "MY SNIPER, BITCH!'" when you pick up the weapon.

I don't have any experiance in this field. None whatsoever. Nope.


Don't look at me like that......

Every Shepherd, regardless of what gender, facial features, or even what "choices" you make, is the same one.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Ask yourself, honestly, how much can you relate to:

I know a girl who looks like that, and I relate pretty well to her

Chrysaor686 wrote:I meant in terms of having a character set in stone that was female.

How many of those have there been? I can probably count them on just my digits as far as FPS games go.

But yes, I related better to Faith Connors than I did to Preston Marlowe. Sure she's far more physically capable than I am but she's still a more interesting character than Mr. Generic McBlandyface Soldierdude #76174959.

Ask yourself, honestly, how much can you relate to:
http://images.wikia.com/residentevil/images/a/a0/929198_20080820_screen010.jpg

I'll do you one better.



A bit of a nerd about zombie flicks, but otherwise a relatively normal college girl. I relate quite damned well to Zoey. Funny how she is the most popular Left 4 Dead character....

Chrysaor686 wrote:Honestly, it's not something worth fighting for.

Bullgak to your entire last paragraph.

Manchu wrote:Every Shepherd, regardless of what gender, facial features, or even what "choices" you make, is the same one.

Dat don' make no sense.


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A bit of a nerd about zombie flicks, but otherwise a relatively normal college girl. I relate quite damned well to Zoey. Funny how she is the most popular Left 4 Dead character....

Considering all four characters are mandatory in every single game of left 4 dead I'd like to see how you can really support that position.

You still choose who you play as.

As far as her being the most popular, that was proven by a poll given by Valve.

Melissia wrote:You still choose who you play as.

As far as her being the most popular, that was proven by a poll given by Valve.

I'd like to see how you can really support that position.

Melissia wrote:How many of those have there been? I can probably count them on just my digits as far as FPS games go.

But yes, I related better to Faith Connors than I did to Preston Marlowe. Sure she's far more physically capable than I am but she's still a more interesting character than Mr. Generic McBlandyface Soldierdude #76174959.

Not many, to be honest. But, speaking from experience as the 'target demographic', a character with a well-defined backstory generally doesn't resonate well with anyone, because they have their own personality, beliefs, and abilities. There may be a select few people that relate to the character well, but finding those people would be akin to finding a needle in a haystack. Out of all of the white male protagonists in any videogame ever made, I relate with maybe two of them on any meaningful level whatsoever. Keep in mind that I'm one of the 'lucky ones' who gets games built around 'my interests', so I'm more likely to buy them.

Faith Connors may be a far more interesting character than Preston Marlowe (I don't think anyone would argue with you on that point), but how can you possibly relate to her better? Are you an asian mail-carrying parkour runner with an intricate knowledge of aikido? I'm going to go with 'no' on this one, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll do you one better.



A bit of a nerd about zombie flicks, but otherwise a relatively normal college girl. I relate quite damned well to Zoey. Funny how she is the most popular Left 4 Dead character....

Again, I'd like to ask how you relate to her on any level. I see no measure of 'normal college girl' evidenced anywhere in the game, even in the miscellaneous banter. She spends most of her time yelling 'Smoker!' and 'Medkit over here!', just like the rest of the cast of Left 4 Dead. However, she also seems to be the generic of all the characters; at least Bill, Francis, and Louis have some sort of aspect to their personalities that make them memorable (Okay, maybe not Bill. feth Bill).

The reason she is so popular is solely because she is female. Rabid adolescent males, and any number of female gamers, eat that gak up. However, she is one of the most realistically portrayed females I can think of (Right behind Heather from Silent Hill 3), so I guess that's a plus.

If you do honestly relate to her somehow, then you should feel very lucky. Most of us don't have any videogame character we can honestly relate to whatsoever.

Bullgak to your entire last paragraph.

Why? It's the truth, spoken from someone who's been bombarded with these idiotic marketing tactics all his life. Characters with set personalities are almost impossible to relate to, no matter their race or gender.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Manchu wrote:Every Shepherd, regardless of what gender, facial features, or even what "choices" you make, is the same one.

Dat don' make no sense.

After being frustrated and disappointed with trying to make my Shepherd, and having the rest of my ME2 experience suffer for it, I just happened to look at the cover of the game. There, front and center, was a shot of Shepherd. It dawned on me that his face was in perfect detail and I pulled out my copy of ME, where he has a face but it is ambiguous/generic. (I also thought back to my days as Revan in KotOR and realized that all the scenes depicting Darth Revan had him/her wearing a mask that totally obscured her/his face -- I realized that this wasn't just a way of realizing a plot twist.) It became apparent to me that Shepherd is not really a customizable character at all. He's just extremely generic in regard to himself. Think of it: his experience as a character does not differ significantly according to what kind of training he has. One would think that someone of primarily technical knowledge would act differently than someone trained as a soldier. But outside of combat, there is really no difference at all. The difference in outcome between paragon and renegade is also fairly equivalent. The ambivalence of Shepherd's choices is nowhere better portrayed than in the motion comic that catches you up to the PS3 version of ME2, where a hundred hours or more of gameplay -- allegedly replete with meaningful choices -- is summed up into five or so binary decisions. Even putting Shepherd into a woman's body does not really change who he is. The only actual change is that some romantic options open up where others are no longer available. And of course the romances are basically all the same as well.

Once I came to terms with this, I began to enjoy the game.

If you want to play a convincingly female character who is not just a male fantasy, play Lightning in FFXIII. Shepherd with boobs is not actually a woman.

Chrysaor686 wrote:Faith Connors may be a far more interesting character than Preston Marlowe (I don't think anyone would argue with you on that point), but how can you possibly relate to her better? Are you an asian mail-carrying parkour runner with an intricate knowledge of aikido? I'm going to go with 'no' on this one, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Her personality and the way she carries herself is easier to relate to. Her being female did help, mostly for the voices-- when I am doing an action in game, it helps immersion of that action is not accompanied by a low male grunt.

I see no measure of 'normal college girl' evidenced anywhere in the game

Try paying attention more.

Dunno about you, but I actually read the background material of a good game...

That almost blew my mind as much as realizing that Ed, Edd, and Eddy was an allegory for hell.

http://www.vizworld.com/2010/01/infographic-video-game-statistics/


I don't complain when I have to play as a female character because I'm in it for the gameplay. I don't play Bayonetta, not because I don't want to play a female version of Devil May Cry but because I don't play Devil May Cry either.

Other social media is dominated by a female audience, how many movies and TV shows portray males as idiotic sloths and women as sources of balance and restraint? How many show a sleazeball male getting his just desserts and the gentle, caring male as the ideal man?

Music is a gray area, there are a great deal of anti-woman music and a great deal of pro-woman music. Some put women on pedastals and others make them lick their boots.

Videogames are one of the rare instances when a man is portrayed somewhat positively the majority of the time and apparantly that's a no-no. I don't give two rat's rear ends about the gender of a character but when I have to endure another form of media that demeans males I may lose it.

If you also notice, men are also the antagonists in most games.

If you want to complain and want me to support the argument there needs to be an increase in the amount of female antagonists. A female Darth Vader, a female General Shephard, a female McEvillady, a female Hitler that a male protagonist gets to beat.

Argue for that and then maybe I'll board your 'equal representation' ideas.

halonachos wrote:If you also notice, men are also the antagonists in most games.

And that helps your point... how?

As for the rest of your rant, I hardly see that in the shows I watch, but I admit that I don't watch sitcoms, daytime drama shows, jerry springer, or anime very often, all of which tend to be the most sexist towards males. Personally I prefer to watch the CSIs, or to watch educational television such as PBS World. Regardless, in case you weren't paying attention the last time I explained about my position, feminism is the idea of equal treatment for women. One can't have equality between genders if one gender is treated better than the other-- regardless of if that gender is male or female.

Melissia wrote:Her personality and the way she carries herself is easier to relate to. Her being female did help, mostly for the voices-- when I am doing an action in game, it helps immersion of that action is not accompanied by a low male grunt.

While I can see your point about the level of immersion changing depending on whether or not you're playing as a female, I've never had a problem being immersed in a game with a female lead. It's simply a matter of placing yourself in your character's shoes, and from there on in, immersion is never a difficult thing to grasp. That's what you have to do anyway, as I've rarely seen a game where I can literally recreate myself (though I do try occasionally and almost always fail)

I guess immersion is more difficult for some people to achieve than others, and while that's unfortunate for you, I seriously doubt that 100% of the games you play will ever have purely female protagonists, no matter how drastically the industry changes. So, it's kind of a moot point regardless.

Try paying attention more.

Dunno about you, but I actually read the background material of a good game...

That's one of the biggest problems I had with L4D. Almost all of the storyline information was relegated to outside sources. While the intentionally cryptic storytelling was nice, the fact that almost all of the provided information had to be found somewhere else was a terrible design decision. Absolutely awful.

Regardless, the point still stands that Zoey hardly ever had anything meaningful to contribute, and she was incredibly stoic for being in such a situation. She never once made me laugh (or even tried to), and rarely displayed any emotion unless she was in immediate danger. She was practically a Jane Doe.

At least Francis' blatant hatred of everything was entertaining, and the fact that Louis was literally about to piss his pants most of the time made me chuckle. Even if I hated Bill, his 'grizzled war veteran' appearance and demeanor at least made him a memorable character. Zoey was exceptionally average in every way; literally the only thing she had going for her was that she was the only female character.

Chrysaor686 wrote:While I can see your point about the level of immersion changing depending on whether or not you're playing as a female, I've never had a problem being immersed in a game with a female lead.

Maybe that's because it almost never actually happens.

Melissia wrote:

halonachos wrote:If you also notice, men are also the antagonists in most games.

And that helps your point... how?

As for the rest of your rant, I hardly see that in the shows I watch, but I admit that I don't watch sitcoms, daytime drama shows, jerry springer, or anime very often, all of which tend to be the most sexist towards males. Personally I prefer to watch the CSIs, or to watch educational television such as PBS World. Regardless, in case you weren't paying attention the last time I explained about my position, feminism is the idea of equal treatment for women. One can't have equality between genders if one gender is treated better than the other-- regardless of if that gender is male or female.

Which is why I demand a female antagonist that a male protagonist can beat up.

halonachos wrote:

Melissia wrote:

halonachos wrote:If you also notice, men are also the antagonists in most games.

And that helps your point... how?

As for the rest of your rant, I hardly see that in the shows I watch, but I admit that I don't watch sitcoms, daytime drama shows, jerry springer, or anime very often, all of which tend to be the most sexist towards males. Personally I prefer to watch the CSIs, or to watch educational television such as PBS World. Regardless, in case you weren't paying attention the last time I explained about my position, feminism is the idea of equal treatment for women. One can't have equality between genders if one gender is treated better than the other-- regardless of if that gender is male or female.

Which is why I demand a female antagonist that a male protagonist can beat up.

Ghost Widow in City of Heroes (any MMO will probably do). Aribeth in Neverwinter Nights. Plenty of antagonists in Bioshock and Left 4 dead, though I'm not sure about bosses in the former (it has been a while), but Witches are some of the most dangerous zombies out there, and there's female boomers, spitters, and female horde zombies, although there are in-universe reasons why these are a bit more rare they still exist.

Then there's:


But in the end I agree, there need to be more strong female villains just as there needs to be more strong (and playable) female PCs.