Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Where is the failing?

In serving its female customers.

Capitalism is not a perfect system, and even if it was we don't live in a perfectly capitalist society. So success does not indicate that a company that succeeds has truly provided good service to its customers, to one or all, only that they provided a service which was desired and the pricing of said service was profitable. Microsoft comes to mind.

Absolutely. But consider what insight you're actually offering here. It's like saying that people to whom pizza is not marketed are served poorly by the pizza industry. That's very different from saying that the only peoplpe to whom pizza is marketed are people who like it, ergo those not well served are not interested. There are certainly female gamers who like FPSs even if they aren't the target of marketing FPSs. Now, although capitalism is not perfect I would say that it depends on a high degree of rational decision making. People who market pizza want to reach the largest possible group of people who might be interested in pizza as cheaply as possible. It seems reasonable to me that game publishers have the same attitude about marketing FPSs. The feeling that some women have of being excluding from the marketing is, in their rational calculation, a reasonable loss.

Now, before you say it, I know that doesn't make your complaint less valid. On the other hand, it doesn't make your complaint any more valid, either. What we are left with is someone who wants a company to act according to her preferences. That's fine but it doesn't indicate anything about anything: all consumers want providers of goods and services to meet their expectations. There may well be a group of people who want pizza with peanut butter on it but if marketing that product stands a reasonable chance of cutting into what is already making money, it's not going to happen. You don't have a right to peanut butter pizza or FPSs with female leads.

And therein lies the problem. I'm not sure that you really accept that this isn't your right.

Melissia wrote:In serving its female customers.

Capitalism is not a perfect system, and even if it was we don't live in a perfectly capitalist society. So success does not indicate that a company that succeeds has truly provided good service to its customers, to one or all, only that they provided a service which was desired and the pricing of said service was profitable. Microsoft comes to mind.

Any specific microsoft service or platform? A comparison to windows doesn't bare out at all since one was a practical monopoly for a decade, but they sell plenty of other software systems. This are the kinds of blank comparisons and advocations that muddle your points.

ShumaGorath wrote:This are the kinds of blank comparisons and advocations that muddle your points.

I just want to get down to what the points really are.

Why shouldn't I accept that I have a right as a customer to complain if the services given are not what I desire?

Melissia wrote:Why shouldn't I accept that I have a right as a customer to complain if the services given are not what I desire?

You have every right, just don't present your view as an industry failing that is endemic of a sexist, racist or chauvinistic system when doing so. It confuses things.

Or maybe you should try actually READING my posts instead of a strawman of them.

You're the only one in this thread that has said anything about sexism. And I never claimed any company is financially failing despite what you and Manchu falsely claim about my posts. Stop trying to troll and actually read the posts you're responding to.

This whole arguement is based of the false assumption that 100% of male gamers only want to play as male characters and refuse to play as females and also that 100% of female players want to play as females.
That's simply not true. There are many guys who pick the female avatar first.
Now the reasons for this are various but lets not kid ourselves its mostly because they think "she's hot" but the point remains the male demographic is not deterred by a female lead.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This whole arguement is based of the false assumption that 100% of male gamers only want to play as male characters and refuse to play as females and also that 100% of female players want to play as females.
That's simply not true. There are many guys who pick the female avatar first.
Now the reasons for this are various but lets not kid ourselves its mostly because they think "she's hot" but the point remains the male demographic is not deterred by a female lead.

There are many perverts who pick the female avatar first*

Honestly though? I couldn't give less of a crap even if I was playing as a Space para trooper Pigmy hermaphrodite.

Soladrin wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This whole arguement is based of the false assumption that 100% of male gamers only want to play as male characters and refuse to play as females and also that 100% of female players want to play as females.
That's simply not true. There are many guys who pick the female avatar first.
Now the reasons for this are various but lets not kid ourselves its mostly because they think "she's hot" but the point remains the male demographic is not deterred by a female lead.

There are many perverts who pick the female avatar first*

Honestly though? I couldn't give less of a crap even if I was playing as a Space para trooper Pigmy hermaphrodite.

me neither. You don't even see yourself in CoD and most FPS.

Melissia wrote:Or maybe you should try actually READING my posts instead of a strawman of them.

You're the only one in this thread that has said anything about sexism. And I never claimed any company is financially failing despite what you and Manchu falsely claim about my posts. Stop trying to troll and actually read the posts you're responding to.

I'll do that once you start giving coherent arguments that reflect reality, or at the very least stop misreading your own "statistics".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This whole arguement is based of the false assumption that 100% of male gamers only want to play as male characters and refuse to play as females and also that 100% of female players want to play as females.
That's simply not true. There are many guys who pick the female avatar first.
Now the reasons for this are various but lets not kid ourselves its mostly because they think "she's hot" but the point remains the male demographic is not deterred by a female lead.

There are many perverts who pick the female avatar first*

Honestly though? I couldn't give less of a crap even if I was playing as a Space para trooper Pigmy hermaphrodite.

me neither. You don't even see yourself in CoD and most FPS.

Yeah you do. And you hear them too, which is more important in an FPS game.

Soladrin wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Honestly though? I couldn't give less of a crap even if I was playing as a Space para trooper Pigmy hermaphrodite.

HeHe i love the way that threads can end up with random stuff like this

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This whole arguement is based of the false assumption that 100% of male gamers only want to play as male characters and refuse to play as females and also that 100% of female players want to play as females.
That's simply not true. There are many guys who pick the female avatar first.
Now the reasons for this are various but lets not kid ourselves its mostly because they think "she's hot" but the point remains the male demographic is not deterred by a female lead.

There are many perverts who pick the female avatar first*

Honestly though? I couldn't give less of a crap even if I was playing as a Space para trooper Pigmy hermaphrodite.

me neither. You don't even see yourself in CoD and most FPS.

Yeah you do. And you hear them too, which is more important in an FPS game.

Well then you'll like Rainbow 6 Vegas 2. Fully customizable including gender. You can kit up like a fething Kasrkin - but then you can't move.
For the record I always play as a guy especially in RPGs but because of this thread I figured I'd try out a chick on a whim but then I realized you are playing as the guy from the first one....so that doesn't really make any sense. Another soldier even remarks "You look different" Gonna go back and change that.

Yes, I very much like R6V2, it's a great game-- and not just for that particular reason.

Soladrin wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This whole arguement is based of the false assumption that 100% of male gamers only want to play as male characters and refuse to play as females and also that 100% of female players want to play as females.
That's simply not true. There are many guys who pick the female avatar first.
Now the reasons for this are various but lets not kid ourselves its mostly because they think "she's hot" but the point remains the male demographic is not deterred by a female lead.

There are many perverts who pick the female avatar first*

Honestly though? I couldn't give less of a crap even if I was playing as a Space para trooper Pigmy hermaphrodite.

I don't honestly see whats perverted about it; in a game like Gears of war, where you have to stare at someones ass half the game, why can't it be a female one (Refering, of course, to my intention of playing Sam in GoW3 if they fix how broke the series' multiplayer is)

This:


or this:

Can't find one of Anya roadie running, I know there is a video with it, brb

Slarg232 wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This whole arguement is based of the false assumption that 100% of male gamers only want to play as male characters and refuse to play as females and also that 100% of female players want to play as females.
That's simply not true. There are many guys who pick the female avatar first.
Now the reasons for this are various but lets not kid ourselves its mostly because they think "she's hot" but the point remains the male demographic is not deterred by a female lead.

There are many perverts who pick the female avatar first*

Honestly though? I couldn't give less of a crap even if I was playing as a Space para trooper Pigmy hermaphrodite.

I don't honestly see whats perverted about it; in a game like Gears of war, where you have to stare at someones ass half the game, why can't it be a female one (Refering, of course, to my intention of playing Sam in GoW3 if they fix how broke the series' multiplayer is)

This:


or this:

Can't find one of Anya roadie running, I know there is a video with it, brb

Good point. Why is men looking at women perverted?

It's no more perverted than women looking at men, which does happen (just not to the casual nerd due to their lack of hygiene... at least not looking at them in THAT way).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Good point. Why is men looking at women perverted?

Not knowing if your being sarcastic or not;

It's not, as long as your not acting on it. Because if men looking at women is perverted, then everyone who goes to a beach, or when out with their friends goes "Hey, look at that babe", then thats perverted, too.

Not to mention the fact that every man gives every woman a look over when they first meet.

-Meanwhile back at the topic-

No, there is not too many CoDs but there are too many near-future-military-first-person-shooters. Thing is CoD is usually top notch. You can tell because its got it own dedicated band of haters. But because of its success developers are just willing to imitate them and it stifles innovation. For example the new Medal of Honour is piece of crap but it sold 5 million copies. Therefore its a success. It's more profitable middling near-future-military-fps CoD clone than do anything else. A painstaking work of art like Mass Effect or Oblivion or whatever couldn't even hope to make the sales of "generic CoD clone". There's a bunch of games out now like 'Breach" that are just totally try to imitate them and do a bad job at it. They know they suck but the school of thought is "if we can get just 1/100th of that CoD pie that's good enough for us."

Breach actually didn't look all that bad as far as the idea - Just a little over the top. Assault Rifles that can -explode- the side of a building with 1/4 of a mag? No thanks.

Honestly, it looks more like an updated Counter-Strike than a CoD clone.

My point is that a below average FPS will make more money than a masterful, innovative "any other game" and I think that's a shame for the "any other games" makers.

I still really enjoy the Call of Duty games but I dont think I will get that 'wow' that I got when I first got CoD 4. A lot of games get compared to the series now, which has its pros and cons in itself.

I hope that CoD's next installment, rumored to be a sci-fi game, inspires more sci-fi multiplayer FPS games...

Melissia wrote:I hope that CoD's next installment, rumored to be a sci-fi game, inspires more sci-fi multiplayer FPS games...

... And I hope that with Duke returning, along with Greyson from Bulletstorm, Developers give their heroes a personality instead of just "SPEHSS MAHREENS!"

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point is that a below average FPS will make more money than a masterful, innovative "any other game" and I think that's a shame for the "any other games" makers.

But you're also using "Any other games" from different genres, which is a no-no.

Mass Effect and Oblivion do fine on their own because they market to a completely different crowd. You can't compare sales of games from genre A against sales of games in genre B in an arguement against the oversaturation of titles in genre B. At least, not if you want to be taken seriously.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not even saying I feel differently from you. I agree that the entire market needs to take a very, VERY long hiatus from churning out FPS games. I'm just saying you need to come up with a better arguement against FPS games. Mass Effect and Oblivion have both made XBAWKS HUEG amounts of money, and both have sold over 5 million copies. Hell, Mass Effect sold over 500,000 copies on it's release day in North America alone. Yeowza.

But ultimately, it comes down to what the bigger market is. It's not that RPGs (or other genres) are less successful than FPS games, but rather that you have to think of it as a percentage of sales rather than a dollar value. I'm sure that the percentage of sales for Skyrim will be just as high as the percentage of sales for the next CoD title. As for how much money that'll rake in? All depends on what the market demand for the genre is at the time.



As for "Any other FPS", well, yes. Big name titles such as CoD with it's 'lowest-bidder' gameplay quality will always sell, despite being more of the same stuff from the last 15 or so games because it's an established name. Activision could -intentionally- make the next CoD the biggest piece of crap the market has ever seen. It would still take up a huge percent of the market that year because CoD is -the- popular game to have, even if it sucks. But any game can get there with enough effort. Hell CoD used to be vastly overshadowed by Medal of Honour in it's youth.

metallifan wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point is that a below average FPS will make more money than a masterful, innovative "any other game" and I think that's a shame for the "any other games" makers.

But you're also using "Any other games" from different genres, which is a no-no.

Mass Effect and Oblivion do fine on their own because they market to a completely different crowd. You can't compare sales of games from genre A against sales of games in genre B in an arguement against the oversaturation of titles in genre B. At least, not if you want to be taken seriously.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not even saying I feel differently from you. I agree that the entire market needs to take a very, VERY long hiatus from churning out FPS games. I'm just saying you need to come up with a better arguement against FPS games. Mass Effect and Oblivion have both made XBAWKS HUEG amounts of money, and both have sold over 5 million copies. Hell, Mass Effect sold over 500,000 copies on it's release day in North America alone. Yeowza.

But ultimately, it comes down to what the bigger market is. It's not that RPGs (or other genres) are less successful than FPS games, but rather that you have to think of it as a percentage of sales rather than a dollar value. I'm sure that the percentage of sales for Skyrim will be just as high as the percentage of sales for the next CoD title. As for how much money that'll rake in? All depends on what the market demand for the genre is at the time.



As for "Any other FPS", well, yes. Big name titles such as CoD with it's 'lowest-bidder' gameplay quality will always sell, despite being more of the same stuff from the last 15 or so games because it's an established name. Activision could -intentionally- make the next CoD the biggest piece of crap the market has ever seen. It would still take up a huge percent of the market that year because CoD is -the- popular game to have, even if it sucks. But any game can get there with enough effort. Hell CoD used to be vastly overshadowed by Medal of Honour in it's youth.

Mass Effect2 has only sold 2.5 million. Which is actually monumental for its genre compared to MoH's 5 million (both consoles). And percentage of sale is irrelevent. Pure units moved is all that matters and I guarantee Skyrim won't do anything close to Black Ops. I don't begrudge Black Ops for this though. It's a good game and the developers are trying to put out the best product. I begrudge the makers of crappy FPSs that know they are crappy but will get a profit anyway because of the FPS genre's popularity.
I guess I'm saying expand your mind gamers don't just play FPSs all the time!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Mass Effect2 has only sold 2.5 million. Which is actually monumental for its genre compared to MoH's 5 million (both consoles). And percentage of sale is irrelevent. Pure units moved is all that matters and I guarantee Skyrim won't do anything close to Black Ops. I don't begrudge Black Ops for this though. It's a good game and the developers are trying to put out the best product. I begrudge the makers of crappy FPSs that know they are crappy but will get a profit anyway because of the FPS genre's popularity.
I guess I'm saying expand your mind gamers don't just play FPSs all the time!

I was referring to Mass Effect 1 (You didn't say '2' ), but yes, ME2 -has- done considerably well for only the second title in the series (We're ignoring the 'Galaxies' insult)

When comparing RPGS to FPS though, you -need- to go by percentage rather than units, because they will -always- be vastly disparate unless it's an FPS/RPG hybrid (Such as Fallout 3) which appeals to both sides because it has elements of 2 genres in one game. You're probably right that Skyrim won't do as good as Black Ops, but is that because of CoD? Or because the percentage of gamers that play FPS is higher than the percentage of gamers that play RPGs? I'm pretty sure CoD, in all of it's craptastic, undeserved glory isn't at fault. It entirely comes down to market preferances. The only reason CoD, and shooters in general, sell better than RPGs on average, is because there's a higher demand for them. So, yea, you're right on the money as far as what I was trying to explain. It's not the games, it's the market. Developers put out crap, because consumer-whores will buy crap even if they -know- it's crap, because it has a big name attached to it.

Slarg232 wrote:

Melissia wrote:I hope that CoD's next installment, rumored to be a sci-fi game, inspires more sci-fi multiplayer FPS games...

... And I hope that with Duke returning, along with Greyson from Bulletstorm, Developers give their heroes a personality instead of just "SPEHSS MAHREENS!"

And I'm hoping the new inspired sci-fi multiplayer fps games (and the next CoD) aren't just halo clones. That will be horrible.

I believe I made a joke about it earlier, but nobody ever responds when I make dumb jokes on dakka so, ah well