Poll |
 |
|
 |
Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 02:50:39
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
!!Goffik Rocker!!
(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)
|
Melissia wrote:The industry growing and yet still not fulfilling its customer's desires are not mutually exclusive.
Having a comparatively small female gamer population and having blockbuster games that do not cater to the female audience is not inherently causative.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/24 02:51:08
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 02:52:59
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
ShumaGorath wrote:Melissia wrote:The industry growing and yet still not fulfilling its customer's desires are not mutually exclusive.
Having a comparatively small female gamer population and having blockbuster games that do not cater to the female audience is not inherently causative.
Fourty percent of a multi-billion dollar industry is not small.
|
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 02:54:06
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
!!Goffik Rocker!!
(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)
|
Melissia wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:Melissia wrote:The industry growing and yet still not fulfilling its customer's desires are not mutually exclusive.
Having a comparatively small female gamer population and having blockbuster games that do not cater to the female audience is not inherently causative.
Fourty percent of a multi-billion dollar industry is not small. And AAA titles do not make up 100% of the market. Facebook games are in that statistic, as are portables. Farmville makes more money then call of duty. Post your statistics or don't use them.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/24 02:54:19
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 03:01:13
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
ShumaGorath wrote:Post your statistics or don't use them.
Don't be a hypocrite.
If you want my sources, that's easy. The ESA lists fourty percent of gamers-- not customers-- female. For the multi-billion dollar industry, here is one source. Twenty billion dollars a year. Three of the top ten selling games that year were xbox games. Modern Warfare 2 earned one billion dollars in worldwide sales alone. Zynga, the producers of Farmville, earn approximately 240 to 260 million a year in comparison, depending on who you ask it could vary, but not one estimate exceeds what the AAA titles make and how many copies they sell. Google's 100 million contribution to Zynga was a huge thing for them. That would have been maybe one tenth of what a SINGLE AAA game made.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/24 03:07:01
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 03:36:47
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
Melissia wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:Melissia wrote:The industry growing and yet still not fulfilling its customer's desires are not mutually exclusive.
Having a comparatively small female gamer population and having blockbuster games that do not cater to the female audience is not inherently causative.
Fourty percent of a multi-billion dollar industry is not small.
But 60% is much larger.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 03:38:46
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
halonachos wrote:But 60% is much larger.
Not really.
|
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 03:53:55
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
Melissia wrote:halonachos wrote:But 60% is much larger.
Not really.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 04:03:09
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Veteran ORC
|
halonachos wrote:Melissia wrote:halonachos wrote:But 60% is much larger.
Not really.

She has a point, though; piss off 40% of your playerbase, and it's going to seriously hurt your sales.
|
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 04:27:39
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
!!Goffik Rocker!!
(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)
|
Melissia wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:Post your statistics or don't use them.
Don't be a hypocrite.
If you want my sources, that's easy. The ESA lists fourty percent of gamers-- not customers-- female. For the multi-billion dollar industry, here is one source. Twenty billion dollars a year. Three of the top ten selling games that year were xbox games. Modern Warfare 2 earned one billion dollars in worldwide sales alone. Zynga, the producers of Farmville, earn approximately 240 to 260 million a year in comparison, depending on who you ask it could vary, but not one estimate exceeds what the AAA titles make and how many copies they sell. Google's 100 million contribution to Zynga was a huge thing for them. That would have been maybe one tenth of what a SINGLE AAA game made.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703515504576142693408473796.html?mod=WSJ_Tech_LEADTop
Thats interesting when zynga is worth roughly 7-9 billion dollarsr. For making 260 million dollars a year and for existing four years, they sure are worth roughly 30 times that amount. I'm sure googles 100 million was really a huge thing to them. If my company got 1.4% bigger I would be honored. You should perhaps be a bit more careful when searching for financial information online in regards to the net worth of companies that have recently been in the wall street journal, forbes, and business week. It's best not to use a year old article with no sources as your "statistics".
You also didn't post the relevant statistic of 40% of gamers being women, nor did you attempt to explain any of the demographic specifics of what constitutes a gamer within that statistic. I'm pretty sure you either don't have such information of you're aware that it skews towards the highly profitable but typically maligned casual game or MMO sphere where there is semi parity between genders. Automatically Appended Next Post: Slarg232 wrote:halonachos wrote:Melissia wrote:halonachos wrote:But 60% is much larger.
Not really.

She has a point, though; piss off 40% of your playerbase, and it's going to seriously hurt your sales.
Except she'd be lucky if 5% of call of duty sales were to women gamers and she refuses to post the statistics that she's citing.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/24 04:28:26
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 05:31:34
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Savage Minotaur
Chicago
|
Melissia wrote:Considering I've met people who honestly believe most of those things, I'm not so sure.
Deldar?
Gauiz, intarwebz is surius bizznizzes.
Edit: I think I may have encountered a time warp, but I'm going to leave this here...
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/24 05:32:23
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 06:13:16
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
This "40% of gamers are women" is notorious on Dakka by now. Because there have already been at least five arguments over it already. As such, it's starting to become a real headache for me. As far as has been shown by the belligerents in these arguments, that figure doesn't represent anything of merit regarding the FPS genre. The claim that a game company ought to better serve 40% of its customers is fine -- but as it turns out, the company in question seems to do a pretty damn good job at serving its ACTUAL customers. So far, I've seen no statistic that leads me to believe 40% of all gamers -- and I'm not talking about Nintendogs and Farmville here -- are female. Anecdotally, I believe that notion is absurd.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 13:11:39
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
Manchu wrote:This "40% of gamers are women" is notorious on Dakka by now. Because there have already been at least five arguments over it already. As such, it's starting to become a real headache for me. As far as has been shown by the belligerents in these arguments, that figure doesn't represent anything of merit regarding the FPS genre. The claim that a game company ought to better serve 40% of its customers is fine -- but as it turns out, the company in question seems to do a pretty damn good job at serving its ACTUAL customers. So far, I've seen no statistic that leads me to believe 40% of all gamers -- and I'm not talking about Nintendogs and Farmville here -- are female. Anecdotally, I believe that notion is absurd.
Funny, I haven't seen anyone who made such a claim provide statistics to actually prove it. It's empty speculation based off of preconceptions which themselves aren't based in fact. I have never said fourty percent of FPS gamers are female, because I haven't seen such a statistic.
But I can say that the split between male and female social gamers is roughly equal.
Hmm, so 55 percent female, 45 percent male when it comes to social gaming. Not quite as big a lead as people want to try to claim is it now? This "all female gamers play farmville" crap is just that-- crap. Because it was pulled right out of someone's soiled underpants.
edit: Ugh, I cannot type this morning... and apparently I misread the second source, which was discussing things such as whether they play with friends or with strangers, or how often they play, instead of the differences between genders. Redacting, because I need to get some tea...
|
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2011/02/24 13:30:37
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 13:26:08
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Urm Melissia that is based on people who play games on social websites such as facebook, not actual games.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 13:28:59
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
Yes, because the topic of social gamers is constantly brought up and I wanted to post statistics on the demographics of social gamers to show that it is not exclusively female despite the screaming of people on this forum that all female gamers play social games such as farmville.
As for other countries, in Germany, it's 52/48, in France it's 46/54, and in the UK it's 59/41 for the demographics of a social gamer (Female/Male in each case).
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/24 13:33:30
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 13:38:03
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Melissia wrote:Yes, because the topic of social gamers is constantly brought up and I wanted to post statistics on the demographics of social gamers to show that it is not exclusively female despite the screaming of people on this forum that all female gamers play social games such as farmville. While it is obviously not true that all female gamers play social games your statistics were totally irrelevant to that, you just showed that not all social gamers are female instead of not all female gamers are social. Just to be clear I am on your side, just pointing out that that graph was mostly pointless.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/24 13:39:11
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 13:45:29
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
... yes, I showed that not only not all of social gamers were such, but female social gamers in the US were only a 55% majority. You know, exactly what I claimed it showed, if you had read my post?
Furthermore:
http://www.next-gen.biz/news/npd-44-per-cent-of-current-gen-console-users-are-female
(remember that one can be a social gamer and still play hardcore games at the same time)
Annoyingly enough, this was the only source I could find, unlike the data for social gaming where several sources said pretty much the same thing give or take four or five percentage points...
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/02/24 13:48:28
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 13:53:57
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Drone without a Controller
|
Again thanks for all the comments  I have borrowed black ops from a friend to see if it is actually such a big improvement, though he says it is not really that much of an improvement, will psot when I play it
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 13:54:53
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
Hopefully you'll enjoy it.
|
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 14:36:30
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
There are sometimes that even after all these years, the internet can surprise me. This is one of those times.
I'm shocked by the amount of backlash to the simple statement "Main protagonists in video games are disproportionately white males."
That is true. Video games (and TV shows and movies and just about all other media you can think of) over-represent white males as the strong characters. This leads to re-enforcing our already present prejudices.
It doesn't matter what the gamer demographics are. Media should advocate diversity (gender, ethnicity, religious beliefs, and everything else you can think of). Representing people as equals is a good thing.
Whether or not gamers are mostly male is a moot point. Unless you're actively saying you'd be upset by having to play as a female or minority.
I think things have been getting better in recent years. There's some genres that still need improvement. FPS is one of those (although, I can see the argument for historical games to have combatants be all male).
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 14:52:47
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
- Most people who play social games are female.
This was never in question. It's another red herring. Just because you, the poster Melissia, bring up a point doesn't make it relevant to the discussion. It certainly does not address the point that "all female gamers play farmville," which itself wasn't a point anyone was making. The point was: "less than 40% of the people who play Call of Duty are female." As I already admitted, this is merely anecdotal. I assume that if you had a statistic to prove me wrong, it would have already been posted. As it is, I'm presented with an off-topic graph? Automatically Appended Next Post: Grakmar wrote:Media should advocate diversity (gender, ethnicity, religious beliefs, and everything else you can think of).
=/= Representing people as equals is a good thing.
I'm left wondering what social iniquity results from the predominance of white male protagonists. "Well, it's, you know, not . . . um . . . fair?" Whether or not gamers are mostly male is a moot point.
Well, not when the subject is whether or not a company is serving its demographic . . .
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/24 14:57:48
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 15:09:51
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
Manchu wrote:I assume that if you had a statistic to prove me wrong, it would have already been posted. As it is, I'm presented with an off-topic graph?
I never made any claim about which percentage of people who bought CoD were either gender. You have done that, pulling a random guess out of nowhere based off of nothing, which is worth about the same. I'm not the one making claims about things which I have not done the research on.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/24 15:10:35
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 15:20:26
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
Melissia wrote:Manchu wrote:I assume that if you had a statistic to prove me wrong, it would have already been posted. As it is, I'm presented with an off-topic graph?
I never made any claim about which percentage of people who bought CoD were either gender. You have done that, pulling a random guess out of nowhere based off of nothing, which is worth about the same. I'm not the one making claims about things which I have not done the research on.
I guess I must have missed your point, which I had thought was that the gaming industry was failing because it ignores a significant portion (slightly less than 50%) of its customers, i.e. females. Melissia wrote:Just because a demographic is less than fifty percent (and yet, still only slightly less) does not mean that they should be completely ignored.
Melissia wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:Don't blame the industry, the industry exists to serve the demographic customers it has
And it's failing.
The industry HAS female customers. A sizable portion of them. And it isn't serving them very well.
OH WAIT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID. I can understand if you don't want to read and understand my posts but it bugs me that you won't even acknowledge your own posts.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/24 15:21:15
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 15:22:25
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
The closest I've found is this:
http://mentalshaman.com/2010/08/25/games-demographics/
Halo 3, Call of Duty 4, and Gears of War are in the top five for the most played on xbox live for both genders.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:[I guess I must have missed your point, which I had thought was that the gaming industry was failing because it ignores a significant portion (slightly less than 50%) of its customers, i.e. females.
Yes, and that has anything at all to do with what you said about CoD? Oh wait, nothing.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/24 15:25:24
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 15:34:18
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
Melissia wrote:Yes, and that has anything at all to do with what you said about CoD? Oh wait, nothing.
Those are my shoes you are pissing on. And, no, I don't believe you when you tell me it's raining. Here's a brief selection of your posts that show how that has everything to do with CoD (remember that we're posting in a thread about CoD?): Melissia wrote:For myself, the problem I have is that every main character for these games is a generic military (or ex-military) white boy, usually with interchangeable personalities (if they had any).
Melissia wrote:How many good FPS games have you seen with playable female characters in single player... or for that matter, multiplayer? Or playable Black, Oriental, Native American, Hispanic, Middle-Eastern characters...
Yes, it's a marketing decision, that doesn't make my complaint any less valid.
Melissia wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:But your complaint isn't an issue with the game perse so much as an issue with western media economics in general.
In the end, the result is the same.
You have a problem with the kind of protagonists that you're forced to play in FPS games -- like call of duty. But it's not just a matter of personal preference. You indicate very clearly here that the problem is one of gender/ethnic equality on an industry-wide, even economy-wide, scale. As you see it (see me quoting YOU above), some amount of people who play games -- including CoD -- which is slightly less than 50% are female. The fact that the entire industry (or economy) is catering to the patriarchy by forcing you to play as a white, male protagonist indicates to you that a large protion of customers for CoD are not being served and therefore the industry is failing. Not only are the morally/ethically failing, they are practically failing. Whatever the truth of the former claim, it cannot be conflated -- as you are in fact doing, as seen here in your own words above -- with the second claim. If the two are connected, then it's perfectly fine to force everyone to play white male protagonists. Because it is TREMENDOUSLY successful.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 15:37:14
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
Manchu wrote:Because it is TREMENDOUSLY successful.
To invoke Godwin's law before I head out to class... so were nazis for a few years. Doesn't make it right nor does it mean that they are fairly representing all of the population.
I have provided sources, facts, and statistics to support my position. where are yours?
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/24 15:38:41
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 15:59:01
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
Melissia wrote:Manchu wrote:Because it is TREMENDOUSLY successful.
To invoke Godwin's law before I head out to class... so were nazis for a few years. Doesn't make it right nor does it mean that they are fairly representing all of the population.
No one is saying it makes it right. That's exactly the distinction I just made. But to say that the industry is failing financially because of its social narrowness is flat out wrong, as Shuma pointed out. Nothing you've posted since (your "sources, facts, and statistics") indicates otherwise. In the meantime, you have presented no coherent argument that there is a problem with the video games industry not "fairly representing all of the population." As I said to Grakmar, "so what?" It's not to say that there is no problem -- it's to say that the problem isn't really apparent. We're talking about designing and selling video games, not running a government after all.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/24 15:59:35
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 17:11:15
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
New Jersey
|
"I'm left wondering what social iniquity results from the predominance of white male protagonists. "Well, it's, you know, not . . . um . . . fair?""
I'm guessing you're white which is probably why you don't get it. CURSE YOU WHITE PEOPLE AND YOUR RACIAL HEGEMONY!!!!!
|
"Order. Unity. Obedience. We taught the galaxy these things, and we shall do so again."
"They are not your worst nightmare; they are your every nightmare."
"Let the galaxy burn!"
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 17:22:31
Subject: Re:To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Stormin' Stompa
|
ITT: 40% of women gamers complaing, 60% of men gamers argue back
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 17:22:39
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
[MOD]
Solahma
|
Not being white or male is not an excuse for refusing to be articulate.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/24 18:14:26
Subject: To Many CODS In The Sea
|
 |
Consigned to the Grim Darkness
|
Manchu wrote:[snip]But to say that the industry is failing financially.
I never said that.
|
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
|
 |
 |
|