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MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Ketara wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Not...really? The implication is that if Chapterhouse wins the case then third party conversion manufacturers will be able to actually flatout copy GW's established IP/artwork.

Yeah, I mean, they designed that Chaos star, they should have full exclusive rights to protect their IP!

Oh, hang on a minute....

I saw what you did there!

Did you know there's actually an entire Wikipedia entry devoted to the Chaos Star? It's actually kinda interesting, tbh.
But yeah: Circa 1938-43

Clearly, Aleister Crowley infringed on Moorcock's IP!

I also found this quote from Moorcock kind of interesting:

The origin of the Chaos Symbol was me doodling sitting at the kitchen table and wondering what to tell Jim Cawthorn the arms of Chaos looked like. I drew a straightforward geographical quadrant (which often has arrows, too!) – N, S, E, W – and then added another four directions and that was that – eight arrows representing all possibilities, one arrow representing the single, certain road of Law. I have since been told that it is an "ancient symbol of Chaos" and if it is then it confirms a lot of theories about the race mind. … As far as I know the symbol, drawn by Jim Cawthorn, first appeared on an Elric cover of Science Fantasy in 1962, then later appeared in his first comic version of Stormbringer done by Savoy

Don't know who to believe anymore

BrassScorpion wrote:

They are fine with wasting money, as making Space Hulk limited shows.

Yet another comment in one of these threads that shows a complete lack of understanding of the intricacies of business or economy of scale even on a basic, common knowledge level.

1) Businesses often find it necessary to focus their business and to avoid side products that don't fit with their core business plan. GW got out of the board game business years ago for very specific reasons of focusing on core product.
2) People may have noticed that businesses these days often divest themselves of subsidiaries and "distractions" that make it difficult to keep operating costs down. GW has been stripping down the past few years even more, closing Black Industries, etc.
3) Space Hulk was not only NOT a core product, it was produced with the assistance of third party manufacturers. When GW ordered a print run of around 80,000 copies in 2009, I'm pretty sure that gave them an excellent per-copy cost to maximize profits. Keeping the game in print and then having to do small production runs ad hoc as the original stock would have run out would cause all kinds of unwanted costs. Not only a high per copy cost to GW for low number production runs, but the cost of storing it in the warehouse, shipping, etc. More large runs aren't practical because of the trickle of sales after the initial excitement of the primary release passed. Then there's the fact they had no plans to have their retail stores stock it or keep all their staff trained to support it as that interferes with the core business in their retail shops.

Honestly, this is obvious stuff if you've ever worked for any kind of major corporation even if you don't have an MBA.

This is off topic, but countering your insults with facts:

Space Hulk/ Space Crusade has been done before as an outsourced mass market product by MB. With standard marketing it managed to introduce thousands of people to 40k, so it proved to be the ideal introductory game for 40k to increase the customer base.

Currently GW doesn't sell a real introductory game, doesn't marketing its products and doesn't do products for the mass market, consequently losing more customers each year than gaining new ones. That's why a rerelease of Space Hulk was top one demand on internet forums like Warseer for years to revive the customer base.

Not doing an introductory game is not "focussing on core products" (x). Not bothering the personel with introductory products is dumb. Not bothering the mass market with a proven successful and sought after product is dumb. Boasting that ebayers sell Space Hulk for double or triple retail is not a sign of having maximized profit, but of demand not met. Producing double or 10fold the number of games doesn't reduce the profit per game, if the demand is there, simple economics of scale.

Hope you understand the problem a bit better now. But as said, this is not the topic here.

(x) Actually, the most recent starter box, Island of Blood, is the opposite of an introductory game. No introduction to the rules, just a softcover with all 100+ pages of rules. No stats for the included miniatures, so you can't play with them straight out of the box but need to study 2 additional books, the High Elf and Skaven army book before you can finally play your first game (painting tipps are done with a "just buy our painting manual", so another book needed). If you finally understand all rules, you notice that the new edition is designed for 3000 point armies, something no beginner will achieve for years. No wonder that the new Fantasy edition was a huge economical failure. They did the opposite of what a game like Space Hulk could achieve, and failed.

Sorry if this is a very niave thought, and am just thinking aloud, but with regard to this case and cash, GW stand to lose or gain not a lot either way I would have thought.
In UK Civil Law there is the principle of not being able to get blood out of a stone iirc.
If GW successfully sue CH for every cent they have, a small concern like CH isn't going to yield a massive sum of beans for the GW coffers, relatively speaking.

Probably even less likely but is there a possibility that the GW law team have been leading GW up the garden path with the outcome?
Just going by what was said earlier in the thread and having seen second hand that poor legal advice can lead to the client taking a case to court when there is little to no chance of success.
I am not suggesting that is the position, but it is possible.

Saldiven wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Not...really? The implication is that if Chapterhouse wins the case then third party conversion manufacturers will be able to actually flatout copy GW's established IP/artwork. CH used a lot of established GW iconography(the "Dragon" head that they used for Not Salamanders stuff, the scaled cloaks, the shoulderpad styling, etc); which is really what GW's opposed to.

Just like after market manufacturers of automobile parts use the logos and highly similar designs for automobiles like the Ford Mustang and virtually every other car that someone might want to customize. The fact of the matter is that the action that GW is suing CHS over is something that has been commonplace in other industries for decades.

http://www.bodykits.com/

See this link for an example of what I'm discussing. These third party manufacturers make products that directly compete with similar products offered by the auto manufacturer and use trademarked product names from the automobile manufacturer in their advertising. For example, you can find an advertisement for the following:

"Ford Mustang Extreme Dimensions Duraflex Fiberglass Hot Wheels Body Kit."

Extreme Dimensions is the manufacturer of the body kit designed for use on the Ford Mustang, which is a trademarked name owned by Ford.

You can also find aftermarket parts manufacturers that make custom parts for just about every other piece of your Mustang you can imagine, from Floor Mats and Steering Wheels to Gas Cap Covers and engine parts. Many of these items will feature the trademarked Ford running mustang logo. Each of these parts are designed to replace a part already manufactured by Ford.

If this is legal in the automotive industry, why is it not legal in "plastic army men" industry?

Thats fine but then Chapterhouse should pay GW a royalty fee as well then because thats common place in the industry as well. Some car companies don't allow their parts to be made by third parties as well.

That would be odd because a lot of parts that go into making up a car will be made by third parties.

Ozymandias wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not as up on IP law as Polonius or a few other members here would be...

Then stop talking about it.

lol zing!

Worglock wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not as up on IP law as Polonius or a few other members here would be...

Then stop talking about it.

lol zing!

Boy, aren't you clever. Like our very own Dakka Dennis Leary.

Or more like The Situation at Donald Trump's roast.

Buzzsaw wrote:

Sigh... you really should have stopped with the first underlined part.

He should have, but you know he never will. His trolling leash seems to be pretty long.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cadaver wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

terribletrygon wrote:And what GW fanboys and apologists? There is like, what, Kanluwen? So many people.

What about the 40% or so (given the last check I made on the thread) that voted hoping for GW to win? Seems amazing that so people want to see a company close up shop when it makes no real difference to GW at all, it's just denying the wider community of hobbyists a supplier of materials. Perhaps those offering support to GW have all been sucked in by this idea that CH have committed a criminal offence (they haven't) are stealing (they aren't) or the scaremongering that GW are at obvious risk if they lose, ie that their IP will all go up in smoke and it'll be recasting galore, GW will lose a heap of money and/or go bust if CH aren't stopped.

Actually if GW lose, or give up before taking the case all the way through then the result will likely be nothing at all. GW won't be at any more risk of damage than they were before the lawsuit, it might curb their enthusiasm to send out C&Ds to people on the flimsiest of excuses but that's probably hoping for a lot.

It seems amazing to me that so many people are willing to disregard CH's actions prior to and after the lawsuit was filed. Everybody is so quick to rally against the "evil empire" yet so many people forget CH had every opportunity to stay below the radar by simply not using GW names in their product descriptions. Notice how Scibor, Maxmini and others aren't in any legal trouble? because they do it in a responsible way, or at least aren't as blantant about it. Additionally, CH comes in the threads and has the gall to criticize another third party company for "copying" their jumppack design they copied from GW. It was wildly hypocritical and I have no respect for anyone who is willing to piggyback a successful company for their own gain and when someone turns around and does it them they get bent out of shape about it.

Regardless of the result, this isn't going to end 3rd party bits companies if CH loses and it's not going to spur on a ton of new companies if they win. People have way too high of expectations from the outcome here.

Scibor and (I believe) Maxmini are in Poland, which may have significantly different IP laws from the US and UK.

Not how GW has summarily ignored a certain eBay vendor that is out of China that has sculpted a number of models that a direct iterations of Codex/Army book art.

Where you are based has a distinct bearing in these situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
Boy, aren't you clever. Like our very own Dakka Dennis Leary.

Or more like The Situation at Donald Trump's roast.

You'll get over it.

Chapterhouse Lawsuit update- motion to dismiss

This thread is likely to get locked down at some point.
Would be nice if it was later rather than sooner please.

Xca|iber wrote:While I don't want any bitz sites to go down (variety is the spice of life, yes?), I can't help but feel like CH shot themselves in the foot by not playing the "it's a space-man upper arm protector shield, *hint hint*" game.

Most of the other bitz sites barely hide the intent of their products. It's obvious what is designed for what, and such details are often heavily hinted at in product descriptions. CH could have saved themselves a lot of trouble (perhaps not all the trouble, but they could have been much more secure) if they simply made all the product names/descriptions generic.

I realize it's silly to look at a thunder hammer and read "star-viking war god's smashy stick," but if it'll protect bitz sites from GWs zealous legal team, why not do it?

EDIT: Unless of course GW just hasn't gotten to all the more clever sites yet*

As far as I can tell, this is exactly what the case is about. Is there any reason why Scibor has to name is bits "Parts for Space Vikings?" As long as he's not copying exact designs, or claiming that he's making Games Workshop's Space Wolves, he shouldn't have to fake it.

It makes me think of Xbox or laptop stickers made by third parties. They always will tell you exactly what model they fit on. No one has any problem when people do this in other industries. Why should games be any different?


Taking a look at the bits I've seen, I don't think they've matched any insignias close enough to infringe. For example, the Salamander/Dragon shoulderpads do not look exactly like the Salamanders insignia from GW. And Games Workshop cannot copyright the idea of a dragon on a shoulderpad.

terribletrygon wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:

terribletrygon wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing Chapterhouse lose. The resulting threads would be hilarious.

I would like to see GW lose.

First, for the benefits of consumers in the hobby. It would open up the opportunity for some sweet products to come our way.

It wouldn't really benefit the hobby all that much. If it really changed anything at all, it would just mean the market would get clogged up with people making stuff designed for purely for GW. We'd benefit far more from people doing their own thing for once and actually expanding the hobby further. And besides; Warhammer and Warhammer 40k are already heavily supported by GW to a level far greater then that of most ranges. They are the last games in the world that need the extra support. Of course, it is not to say I don't mind the odd side company (I myself buy from MaxMini occasionally) I just do not think that Chapterhouse winning will automatically make the hobby better. Unless you are a Chapterhouse customer, that is.

I sympathized with the desire folks have to see talented sculptors making NEW and different stuff, but I have to disagree with your last two sentences.

Just by Chapterhouse and similar companies existing and making their stuff, my hobby is better. I have never yet bought any of their stuff, but I have the OPTION to buy a Tervigon conversion kit, or a Farseer on Jetbike conversion kit, which GW has thus far failed to provide me and which I am personally unable to sculpt to an acceptable (to me) level of attractiveness. Just by them putting out their near-Salamanders conversion kits, I've gotten to see more and more impressive Salamanders armies at tournaments. Having more options makes our hobby better.

GW shutting down these companies would only make things worse for everyone, IMO. It would deny the fans options to better enjoy GW's games and models, it would deny these little companies their small business, and it would deny GW the sales of models needed to actually USE the Jetbikeseer and Tervigon conversion kits.

Mannahnin wrote:
I sympathized with the desire folks have to see talented sculptors making NEW and different stuff, but I have to disagree with your last two sentences.

Just by Chapterhouse and similar companies existing and making their stuff, my hobby is better. I have never yet bought any of their stuff, but I have the OPTION to buy a Tervigon conversion kit, or a Farseer on Jetbike conversion kit, which GW has thus far failed to provide me and which I am personally unable to sculpt to an acceptable (to me) level of attractiveness. Just by them putting out their near-Salamanders conversion kits, I've gotten to see more and more impressive Salamanders armies at tournaments. Having more options makes our hobby better.

GW shutting down these companies would only make things worse for everyone, IMO. It would deny the fans options to better enjoy GW's games and models, it would deny these little companies their small business, and it would deny GW the sales of models needed to actually USE the Jetbikeseer and Tervigon conversion kits.

I can understand the desire to have the options, but to me it has always felt kind of like they cater to a slothful community, if that makes any sense.

We just don't see the kinds of epic conversions or themed armies we used to, in my opinion. Is Chapterhouse necessarily the cause of this with their pandering to the community when it comes to things like the Jet Bikeseer or the Salamander cloaks, etc? Is Games Workshop responsible because they don't give the players the framework to really do them? No, not really on both counts.

But they don't do anything to really help the situation. It's representative, in my opinion, of a kind of paradigm shift in the community from themed armies and heavy conversion work being the norm rather than the outlier like it is now. Everyone's forces really look the same.

It makes sense.
Although not sure of the impact of aftermarket accessories either way. You may be correct in that some people who would otherwise have made their own conversions find it more expedient to buy from, say, CH.

Added to that there will be people that would not have had the confidence to convert, but now have the opportunity.

However, they will be converting choosing from various options, and against that you have to offset all the vanilla SM's that would otherwise be fielded if the conversions were not available. My turn to hope it makes sense.

My money is on there being more flavours with AM accessories. I counted 20 shoulder pad options by CH and there are possibly more.
Then there are Scribor et all to choose from, Pre-Heresy stuff that is out etc.

Then there are tight wad modellers like myself who will think it is still a good idea to scratch stuff for myself
Should be good times for SM modellers and gamers.

raincity wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:And for the record, those "far superior jump packs" were done by the same sculptor, who first sold them to Chapterhouse, then slightly modified to a competitor.
And of couse, Goodyear should start making their own cars instead of leeching on other car manufacturers

Was that sculptor on a permanent contract? if he fulfills his work with chapterhouse they really shouldn't have any right to tell him what he can or cannot do.. To me the sculpt looked new, very similar yes but better imo.

I suggest you read up on works made for hire and how they interact with copyright law.

Short version: if I pay you to sculpt something for me, and you do it as a "work for hire," then I own the copyright. If you turn around and sell that same sculpt (or a derivative work made from that same sculpt) to another party, you may incur liability, as may the party who buys it.

And that power armour is not that GW specific at all:

It doesn't really look anything like a stormtrooper though.

Kanluwen wrote:We just don't see the kinds of epic conversions or themed armies we used to, in my opinion. Is Chapterhouse necessarily the cause of this with their pandering to the community when it comes to things like the Jet Bikeseer or the Salamander cloaks, etc? Is Games Workshop responsible because they don't give the players the framework to really do them? No, not really on both counts.

But they don't do anything to really help the situation. It's representative, in my opinion, of a kind of paradigm shift in the community from themed armies and heavy conversion work being the norm rather than the outlier like it is now. Everyone's forces really look the same.

See, I think you may have your rose tinted glasses on here. Kind of like when you look back at music you kind of forget about the vast quantities of cruddy music that clogged the 80's only to remember the great bands that "put today's music to shame". As far as I am concerned you see just as many great conversion armies out there today as you used to, certainly many, many more "head swap armies" etc.

Will be very interesting to see how this plays out...

SpaceMonk wrote:Will be very interesting to see how this plays out...

No it wont.

It will be a long drawn out bore, much like the last thread on this topic.

Even if he wins,we lose if you want game legal models.
Don't be surprised when any conversion using bits not sold by gw or forgeworld is declared not game legal at offical events.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

I can file ten motions out of my butt

Blimey Fraz
Not sure if I am more worried about the state of your bowels or amazed at their dexterity!

What can I say? When you're old you have super powers.

The good news is that GW doesn't run many official events. Hell, I was in town yesterday talking to the manager (or one of them anyway) of my local GW telling him about the custom sculpted work I had been doing on my IG and how I was busy casting it up to apply it to the rest of my models and he asked me to bring it in so he could have a look at it.

He also sounded really interested to see what I was planning on doing regards sculpting and casting stuff to convert an SM army I am going to be doing in the future.

I'm also going in there to game today with my CSM army which is full of conversions from other model companies, GS work, etc.

Eisenhorn wrote:Even if he wins,we lose if you want game legal models.
Don't be surprised when any conversion using bits not sold by gw or forgeworld is declared not game legal at offical events.

Yeah, because pretty much everybody who plays 40K does it at official events, and not at home or at clubs with their friends.

Kanluwen wrote:

We just don't see the kinds of epic conversions or themed armies we used to, in my opinion.

No you dont... Cos it too bloody expensive to buy all the bits you need from GW!

Someone take the GW-Dripfeed out of his arm... He is ODing.

I think GW has been de-emphasizing conversions for quite some time. Part of that is due to increased quality of plastic kits that (usually) include all the options available, plus tons of decorative features.

Part is due to the elimination of bits (which I'm not saying is bad), which makes converting outside of the limited selection of bitz packs simply an exercise in buying tons of plastic sprues.

this isn't a bad thing. Armies today have more inherent variety and visual appeal out of the box than many conversions did 10 years ago.

However, and this is a big however, 10 years ago you had a deep catalogue of bits to choose from, so you could more easily veer from what's in the box.

If a company is willing to go to the time and hassle of making bitz, when GW figured it couldn't make money of them, I think that's a fine thing.

Phayse wrote:With GW being a UK based company, where does authority lie? Is it US law, or EU?

The answer you're looking for is what's called personal jurisdiction. In order to act against a defendant, a court has to have jurisdiction over them. If Chapterhouse is a U.S. based company, it's easy to get personal jurisdiction over them in the U.S. GW probably could still have gotten personal jurisdiction over them in the U.K., but they likely made a business/tactical decision to sue in the U.S.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry if this is a very niave thought, and am just thinking aloud, but with regard to this case and cash, GW stand to lose or gain not a lot either way I would have thought.
In UK Civil Law there is the principle of not being able to get blood out of a stone iirc.
If GW successfully sue CH for every cent they have, a small concern like CH isn't going to yield a massive sum of beans for the GW coffers, relatively speaking.

Probably even less likely but is there a possibility that the GW law team have been leading GW up the garden path with the outcome?
Just going by what was said earlier in the thread and having seen second hand that poor legal advice can lead to the client taking a case to court when there is little to no chance of success.
I am not suggesting that is the position, but it is possible.

You're confusing "chance of success" with "chance of recovery."

GW will (probably) be asking for two forms of relief here: monetary damages for past infringement and an injunction against creating future infringing works. If CH isn't able to pay the monetary damages, they are still prohibited from making future infringing works.

Another issue to consider is that GW probably has a strong enforcement arm because they like to have a strong IP. If they let small infringers slip by, then that weakens their IP. If you fail to enforce your IP against the little guys, it makes it harder to enforce the IP against larger actors later.

jmurph wrote:Yeah, the arm chair lawyering by those with no background gets old, but THIS IS THE INTERWEBZ! Where people aren't about to let the lack of having the slightest idea what they are talking about slow them down one bit! ;-)

And they'll get angry at others for disagreeing.

Chopped added to sig and QFT

What can I say? When you're old you have super powers.

lol
Mine only ever seems to hit the fan

Biccat
Thanks. Was forgetting stopping future infringement
In my defense it was very late

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:We just don't see the kinds of epic conversions or themed armies we used to, in my opinion. Is Chapterhouse necessarily the cause of this with their pandering to the community when it comes to things like the Jet Bikeseer or the Salamander cloaks, etc? Is Games Workshop responsible because they don't give the players the framework to really do them? No, not really on both counts.

But they don't do anything to really help the situation. It's representative, in my opinion, of a kind of paradigm shift in the community from themed armies and heavy conversion work being the norm rather than the outlier like it is now. Everyone's forces really look the same.

See, I think you may have your rose tinted glasses on here. Kind of like when you look back at music you kind of forget about the vast quantities of cruddy music that clogged the 80's only to remember the great bands that "put today's music to shame". As far as I am concerned you see just as many great conversion armies out there today as you used to, certainly many, many more "head swap armies" etc.

Oh no, Silver.
I know that for every one of those gorgeous armies that we saw showcased(Remember this one?)--there were another 15 or so that would be half-assed jobs that made me want to slam my head onto the table in frustration just from seeing it.

These days, I really don't see anywhere near as much effort put into people's armies. Look at the kinds of posts we continuously get in these threads that boil down to "I don't want to paint my army". There's a shift--and it's not a good one.

Big P wrote:
No you dont... Cos it too bloody expensive to buy all the bits you need from GW!

Someone take the GW-Dripfeed out of his arm... He is ODing.

Because it's not like there's any kind of..."bits" sites that sell individual parts from both plastic and metal kits, right?

I didn't realize Battlewagon Bits was GW operating on the downlow!

Polonius wrote:I think GW has been de-emphasizing conversions for quite some time. Part of that is due to increased quality of plastic kits that (usually) include all the options available, plus tons of decorative features.
Part is due to the elimination of bits (which I'm not saying is bad), which makes converting outside of the limited selection of bitz packs simply an exercise in buying tons of plastic sprues.
this isn't a bad thing. Armies today have more inherent variety and visual appeal out of the box than many conversions did 10 years ago.

Fair point Polonius. I don't necessarily agree about it being "simply an exercise in buying tons of plastic sprues", but it's a fair point.

However, and this is a big however, 10 years ago you had a deep catalogue of bits to choose from, so you could more easily veer from what's in the box.

This I don't agree with though. There's bits vendors, trading amongst other players for parts you want/need, and all manner of alternatives to simply having to buy the bits direct from GW.

If a company is willing to go to the time and hassle of making bitz, when GW figured it couldn't make money of them, I think that's a fine thing.

I wouldn't say they really went through too much of a hassle or took too much time in some cases. There's a local player with the Salamanders stuff from CH and it looks like, for want of a better descriptor, crap.

Well, no doubt, the hobby side of "The Hobby" is seriously de-emphasised. The website legal page states that all conversions are illegal in principle but generally not sued. The newer Codices only show the official GW models straight out of the box with the official painting scheme, no conversions, no inofficial paint schemes, no Golden Daemon models, nothing to inspire creativity beyond the official limits. Part of not supporting veterans I guess. Because of lawyers ruling, not gamers, designers or artists. I am certain, people like Rick Priestley would love a rich GW aftermarket enriching the hobby.

The deemphasis started before the Lord of the Rings came out, Kroot. It wasn't "lawyers ruling" then.