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Yeah, most horde players I know don't know how to deal with mass heavy flamers at all. They usually clump up. Sometimes they do it in cone-shapes.

I thought nothing else needed to be said but I guess it does. Being meched up is already a nearly insurmountable advantage against hordes. When all those tanks (which can tank shock) have heavy flamers and can combine with cleansing flame that makes a mockery of even elite horde units like Stealers, I'd say that hordes are covered probably better than by any other army.

If however you feel it's not enough you can add for example a single 10 point psyker to every henchman squad and therefore have 6x S3 large blast.

"Head in Sand" is definatly an appropriate term for what's going on here...but somehow it's not enough.

Instead we'll say "Head in Cement".

Therion wrote:

Yeah, most horde players I know don't know how to deal with mass heavy flamers at all. They usually clump up. Sometimes they do it in cone-shapes.

I thought nothing else needed to be said but I guess it does. Being meched up is already a nearly insurmountable advantage against hordes. When all those tanks (which can tank shock) have heavy flamers and can combine with cleansing flame that makes a mockery of even elite horde units like Stealers, I'd say that hordes are covered probably better than by any other army.

So, out of curiosity - and this isn't baiting, I'm sincerely curious - how do you plan to deal with 150-180 Orks that can afford to give you a unit to Heavy Flamers, then give you a unit to Cleansing Flame (obviously being generous here), leaving them with 90-120 Boyz to deal with what you've just put in front of them?

Especially if they have 30-45 Lootas pelting the Chimeras on the way in?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:"Head in Sand" is definatly an appropriate term for what's going on here...but somehow it's not enough.

You're right. No one knows what they're talking about if they don't agree with you. Because the metagame is the same everywhere, right? If you're playing in Washington or Phoenix or Miami or New York, or on the interwebz - all dice roll the same, all generals are the same and everyone plays their list exactly the same.

It would be nice when everything that we theoryhammer goes exactly that way we want it to. No Immobilizes, no Weapons Destroyed, always getting the charge off, always having the right shot and always rolling average or above. But it doesn't work like that.

Deadshane1 wrote:Instead we'll say "Head in Cement".

Indeed.

Sasori wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:The question I would have is how you are advancing shrouded----if you don't play with Land Raiders.

From what has been said, the Librarian can sit in a Chimera.

Oops---I didn't think about Chimeras carrying Terminators

So, out of curiosity - and this isn't baiting, I'm sincerely curious - how do you plan to deal with 150-180 Orks

The exact same way as mech IG or other mechanised tournament builds deal with them, except I also have 3x cleansing flame at my disposal. The Purifiers are worth a lot more in that role than a pie plate or two, and I've already told you that cheap Psyker additions are available to the henchmen units for those who feel they need them. It's not in this thread's interest to go into 'how do mechanised armies in 40K beat Ork Green Tide'.

Therion wrote:

So, out of curiosity - and this isn't baiting, I'm sincerely curious - how do you plan to deal with 150-180 Orks

The exact same way as mech IG or other mechanised tournament builds deal with them,

Except that that -is- the point of the thread - or what it has turned into - the list's viability compared to something similar like Mech IG.

Mech IG would use things like Medusae and Manticores to deal with them. But you don't have those. Or they might use Marbo on occasion, Demo charge vets or, on very rare occasion, Punishers. But you don't have those either.

Therion wrote:except I also have 3x cleansing flame at my disposal.

And I already accounted for those. I gave you a unit of 30 Ork boyz just to Cleansing Flame. What about when you're done with those 30 and it's their turn? And now you have 120 Shoota Boyz staring at you?

Therion wrote:and I've already told you that cheap Psyker additions are available to the henchmen units for those who feel they need them.

Right, but they aren't in your list. And they need to cast, to hit and 5's to wound. Not as effective as something like a Manticore.

Therion wrote:It's not in this thread's interest to go into 'how do mechanised armies in 40K beat Ork Green Tide'.

It wasn't. It was a reinforcement of ArtfcllyFlvrd's response earlier that the list lacks some ways to handle some things. Then, your defense of it saying that it is actually best equipped to deal with hordes. So, "how does this mechanised GK army beat a Ork Green Tide" would very much speak to those points, I would've thought.

But, as I said before, I guess a "We'll see" is the appropriate response for now.

The army just isn't balanced enough. It's going to do really well against a few things, I think it would do well agaist guard. Most of the BA builds I have seen it will struggle. Most of the SW builds I have seen, it will struggle. I think it would struggle against green tide. It's solid stuff, and scary with a good player behind, but I don't think it is as well rounded or optimized as a guard army of similar size.

Mech IG would use things like Medusae and Manticores to deal with them. But you don't have those. Or they might use Marbo on occasion, Demo charge vets or, on very rare occasion, Punishers. But you don't have those either.

Competitive mech IG run one Manticore and sometimes two in which scenario they're slightly gimping themselves against many types of opponents. They don't run Marbo, demo vets or Punishers. You're speculating with uncompetitive units. I've already answered to you that the effect the Manticore has against hordes is easily outdone by the Purifiers.

And I already accounted for those. I gave you a unit of 30 Ork boyz just to Cleansing Flame. What about when you're done with those 30 and it's their turn?

I believe that if you go for the win and don't stand in your deployment zone all spread out and waiting for the game to end, during the whole game I can kill more than 100 Ork Boys with the vehicles alone. You haven't played tanks before I guess.

Right, but they aren't in your list.

Because they aren't needed.

Not as effective as something like a Manticore.

Are you trolling? If I said 'then I have a Manticore' you'd quickly say it gets suppressed or destroyed by your Kommandos/Koptas/Lootas/whatever. You're rambling.

But, as I said before, I guess a "We'll see" is the appropriate response for now.

It's one of the many responses you've got.

If you take the typical Guard list (i.e. Leafblower or Hydra Spam, etc. ) assume the IG player will make no changes, and then compare them to a competitive build from a new codex, yes, I can see where the devaluing of Guard that some players have comes from.

Like any army Guard will just adapt to the ever changing Meta game and keep on trucking.

I believe Grey Knights will struggle a little against Guard, but that really is a situational statement.

Shrouding on a Librarian is Guard's primary concern, but that does place a big target on the Librarian's head. As a guard player if I can alpha strike the Librarian's ride and PBS him off the table (which is unlikely, but possible) then I win that game. Period.

I will say a good Guard Player versus a good Grey Knight player is more then likely to be a coin flip. Give Guard some time to adjust, I just don't see them really sweating Grey Knights anymore then they sweat Space Wolves, Orks, or Blood Angels.

I will say a good Guard Player versus a good Grey Knight player is more then likely to be a coin flip. Give Guard some time to adjust, I just don't see them really sweating Grey Knights anymore then they sweat Space Wolves, Orks, or Blood Angels.

That's close to being accurate. When all the variables are excluded and we're talking from a purely army lists point of view there's not much point for IG to 'sweat' about their opponents. They have a solid force. Just like I don't know any competitive BA, SW or future GK players sweating over IG.

Mahu wrote:
Shrouding on a Librarian is Guard's primary concern, but that does place a big target on the Librarian's head. As a guard player if I can alpha strike the Librarian's ride and PBS him off the table (which is unlikely, but possible) then I win that game. Period.

Good luck with that, if he's riding in a chimera along with an Inquisitor.


Definatly a target though, you're right about that...and the GK player knows it.

Then again, contrary to popular beleif, the GK's are not TOTALLY reliant on their Psychic abilities....its just icing on the cake...thick and very sweet, but still icing.

Would you really take a librarian for the sole purpose of improving the cover save of one unit by 1? That seems like the most massive waste ever.

Nope, I'd take a librarian to protect multiple dreads and a group of transports popping smoke though....any day.

Everything within 6" gets "Stealthed", not just one unit.

It's an aura---everything within 6"

So the answer to my original question is more Inquisition and less grey knights? Seems reasonable enough.

Therion wrote:

Mech IG would use things like Medusae and Manticores to deal with them. But you don't have those. Or they might use Marbo on occasion, Demo charge vets or, on very rare occasion, Punishers. But you don't have those either.

Competitive mech IG run one Manticore and sometimes two in which scenario they're slightly gimping themselves against many types of opponents. They don't run Marbo, demo vets or Punishers. You're speculating with uncompetitive units. I've already answered to you that the effect the Manticore has against hordes is easily outdone by the Purifiers.

Here you go again, applying your competitive meta to the meta of the entire world. You realize that it doesn't work like that right? Demo Vets with Meltaguns in Vendettas are something that I have seen in a competitive environment. I guess I should let them know it's not competitive so they can play the same list as the internet tells them to.

Therion wrote:

And I already accounted for those. I gave you a unit of 30 Ork boyz just to Cleansing Flame. What about when you're done with those 30 and it's their turn?

I believe that if you go for the win and don't stand in your deployment zone all spread out and waiting for the game to end, during the whole game I can kill more than 100 Ork Boys with the vehicles alone. You haven't played tanks before I guess.

Childish much? Did you get your feelings hurt because someone's not blowing sunshine up your arse like other posters? Your assumption is that the KFF doesn't save anything (outside of heavy flamers) and the Lootas don't blow up anything. So, across 3-4 turns, you've killed 100 Boyz and they've done nothing in return? You do know that two people play the game, right?

Therion wrote:

Not as effective as something like a Manticore.

Are you trolling? If I said 'then I have a Manticore' you'd quickly say it gets suppressed or destroyed by your Kommandos/Koptas/Lootas/whatever. You're rambling.

That doesn't even make sense. Why would you say, "Then I have a Manticore."? You can't. That doesn't even logically follow. You might as well say, "Well I have a Defiler and a Fire Prism and a Redeemer." What was the point? I was talking about the list you gave us, not some magical list that can take anything that you want. . .

Childish much? Did you get your feelings hurt because someone's not blowing sunshine up your arse like other posters? Your assumption is that the KFF doesn't save anything (outside of heavy flamers) and the Lootas don't blow up anything. So, across 3-4 turns, you've killed 100 Boyz and they've done nothing in return? You do know that two people play the game, right?

I have yet to see anyone do what you described in this thread. The same 'counter' logic you're applying now can be applied to the effect of a single Manticore. It shoots unluckily only one missile, it scatters a bit, you've got KFF and you lose 4 Orks out of your 180. Next turn you pop it. Mech IG are screwed they can't beat Orks!

You might as well say, "Well I have a Defiler and a Fire Prism and a Redeemer." What was the point? I was talking about the list you gave us, not some magical list that can take anything that you want. . .

That's entertaining because out of all the people in the thread I'm the only one to post a viable tournament list. Even the ones who said it will struggle are only talking about hypothetical competitive armies that it will struggle against. If you have feel that you know a competitive tournament army (an army that wins tournaments and doesn't get hard countered by any competitive armies) that my army list will struggle against you need to post it. Only then can we even start speculating on the changes that can be made. If you manage to do this I still have full confidence in the flexibility and power in the GK codex that the necessary changes can be made. It's a very good army book.

Funnily enough your focus has become 'can Therion's GK beat everyone in the 40K universe' when it should be 'can GK be as competitive or even more competitive in an all-around tournament setting than Mech IG'. This is to be expected since you've shown to be unaware of what the word competitive even means and unable to give concrete real world 1750p examples with evidence. You need to attack what you can even at the expense of derailing the discussion. You're free to.

P.S. Green tide isn't competitive, but if you feel you need to post your 1.75K version of it, please do. Just remember that any list you put forward can't be countered by SW, BA, IG, DE, etc, or it doesn't fit the requirement. If it is, you're 'tooling against' and will fall to the bottom tables already round one when an unprefered enemy hits.

This is the basics of tournament playing. You build your armies to be competitive against the top dogs like (but not exclusively) mech IG because those are the ones you need to beat on your way to overall victory. You largely ignore the uncompetitive armies (like hordes) and in the unlikely event (first round) that you meet them you improvise and use the weapons in your arsenal to their best effect and get away with a win. Just a tip, for free. Nice picture though. Is it you?

I would take it on with my 1750 and no changes:

CCS: Comp Commander w/ PP, 4 PGs, Astropath, Chimera, Heavy Flamer
Witch Hunter Inquisitor: Divine Pronouncement
PBS: 6 Psyckers, Chimera, Heavy Flamer
PCS: 4 Flamers, Chimera, Heavy Flamer
IS x 2: Flamer, Autocannon, Chimera: Heavy Flamer
SWS x 2: 2 Melta guns, Demo Charge
Vets: 3 Melta Guns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer
Vendetta x 2
Hyrdas (2)
Manticore
Medusa

Because apparently unless you spell out exactly what you are talking about with lists your comments are irrelevant.

The discussion is kind of irrelevant at this point. Some people think their army and how they run is the end all be all. there is no way to prove it, we are never going to run into each other in a tournament, so unless someone here wins something with said armies this is all getting pointless.

The discussion is kind of irrelevant at this point. Some people think their army and how they run is the end all be all. there is no way to prove it, we are never going to run into each other in a tournament, so unless someone here wins something with said armies this is all getting pointless.

You're correct and I'll let you know when I do. All depends on how fast Maelstrom ships those models and how fast they can be painted to my standard.

Your list is good although not as good as my own IG list. You're quite a few vehicles and guns short. It would be a good game.

Therion wrote:

Childish much? Did you get your feelings hurt because someone's not blowing sunshine up your arse like other posters? Your assumption is that the KFF doesn't save anything (outside of heavy flamers) and the Lootas don't blow up anything. So, across 3-4 turns, you've killed 100 Boyz and they've done nothing in return? You do know that two people play the game, right?

I have yet to see anyone do what you described in this thread. The same 'counter' logic you're applying now can be applied to the effect of a single Manticore. It shoots unluckily only one missile, it scatters a bit, you've got KFF and you lose 4 Orks out of your 180. Next turn you pop it. Mech IG are screwed they can't beat Orks!

Maybe so. I didn't say that was out of the question. If you take out Mech IG's anti-horde units, they have trouble against hordes - who woulda thunk?

Therion wrote:

You might as well say, "Well I have a Defiler and a Fire Prism and a Redeemer." What was the point? I was talking about the list you gave us, not some magical list that can take anything that you want. . .

That's entertaining because out of all the people in the thread I'm the only one to post a viable tournament list. Even the ones who said it will struggle are only talking about hypothetical competitive armies that it will struggle against. If you have feel that you know a competitive tournament army (an army that wins tournaments and doesn't get hard countered by any competitive armies) that my army list will struggle against you need to post it. Only then can we even start speculating on the changes that can be made. If you manage to do this I still have full confidence in the flexibility and power in the GK codex that the necessary changes can be made. It's a very good army book.

Actually, anecdotal evidence is all we've gotten. Sure, you've posted a list. A one-armed monkey can look at the GK book and spam meltas in chimeras. It's how the list is played that makes the difference. The general makes the list, not vice versa. Unfortunately, for all those involved in the conversation, if you don't deem it competitive, then it's not. I guess all the winners of tournaments that didn't play what you consider competitive just had bad opponents, then?

Therion wrote:Funnily enough your focus has become 'can Therion's GK beat everyone in the 40K universe' when it should be 'can GK be as competitive or even more competitive in an all-around tournament setting than Mech IG'.

No, my focus was hordes, which you said your list was basically optimized against. I was simply asking you how you would deal with an example of one. That's what turned into this argument.

Therion wrote:This is to be expected since you've shown to be unaware of what the word competitive even means

Aww, you're not resorting to personal attacks are you? You were warned for that once.

Therion wrote:You need to attack what you can even at the expense of derailing the discussion.

I explained my reasoning and why I brought up the points I did. If you ignore them, I can't force you to read them.

Therion wrote:P.S. Green tide isn't competitive

Guess 2nd Place at 'ard Boyz Finals in Chicago Battle Bunker would've liked to know that.

Therion wrote:but if you feel you need to post your 1.75K version of it, please do. Just remember that any list you put forward can't be countered by SW, BA, IG, DE, etc, or it doesn't fit the requirement. If it is, you're 'tooling against' and will fall to the bottom tables already round one when an unprefered enemy hits.

I don't play Orks. I play against them often enough to understand what they do, what they can do and how they're built. But, I can throw together a list real quick, if you want. It'd be a Mek (or a Warboss), about 5 or so Boyz (all Shoota boyz, Nob with Powerklaw) units and as many Lootas as I could cram in. I'd have to look at the codex if you want exact point values and I'm about to head to dinner with the wife. I can do it when I get back, though, if you really need the conversation to be validated.

Therion wrote:This is the basics of tournament playing. You build your armies to be competitive against the top dogs like (but not exclusively) mech IG because those are the ones you need to beat on your way to overall victory.

Unless those already got beaten. I mean, do you play in a vacuum where all results are the same against the same people and the same lists at the same venues? Must be boring.

Therion wrote: Is it you?

Nope. Lewis Black!

Puma,

Your side was pretty much lost when you suggested "punishers" as a counter to hordes. It clearly shows that you're missing Therion's point that a list and its units must be flexible to handle top tournament lists. A punisher is far from that. There are always "tailored" counters (and a punisher isn't even THAT good).

Assuming the punisher comment was just a momentary blackout in your reasoning, I don't think you fully appreciate the strength of cleansing flame. With some careful tank shocking / positioning, the purifiers can charge a unit of 30 boys and they will almost entirely wipe them out in 1 phase. Cleansing flame does ~12 wounds. Assuming you tank shocked or even just moved your tanks such that only a few boys can into combat, you're taking a crapton of fearless saves. Sure, it takes some careful positioning, but Green Tide as you suggested only has 3 tank killing units a turn, assuming they all live long enough. The point is that there is a tool (cleansing flame) available to deal with your proposed threat, in addition to the standard HF, AC, HB.

The only difference between Mech IG's horde killing power is a manticore or two. Those Manticores either (1) get shot at by all the lootas or (2) don't get shot by lootas and kill a number of boys, but force the IG to deal with them up close. You can't really shoot the purifiers effectively since they sit in a tank and can swap transports if it dies. The difference between IG / GK is that when the orks get close purifiers kill 30 man squads in almost 1 phase. IG have to rely on heavy flamers (which the GK have in similar numbers).

Also, as Therion referenced above, if you're really scared of Green Tide, you can add single S3 large blast pyskers for 10 points a pop. Just by dropping the las/plas turret on a RB you get 3. For 30 points, they do a fair amount of damage to the tide. They aren't a be all, end all, but now we're talking about a number of Str 3 large blasts, cleansing flame, storm bolters/psycannons, HB, HF and multi-lasters. Is that not enough horde killing potential WHILE still being able to deal with mech spam!??!!? When a list can make simple swaps to effectively deal with your "counter" without giving up it's competitiveness against other lists, you should rethink your counter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:The army just isn't balanced enough. It's going to do really well against a few things, I think it would do well agaist guard. Most of the BA builds I have seen it will struggle. Most of the SW builds I have seen, it will struggle. I think it would struggle against green tide. It's solid stuff, and scary with a good player behind, but I don't think it is as well rounded or optimized as a guard army of similar size.

Sorry, what "Most of the BA builds" and "Most of the SW builds" that you have seen will it struggle against? Would love to see examples of each. I find it hard to believe an army packing that much melta fire with deep strike negating abilities and str8 rifle dreads would have that much "trouble" against BA or most SW. Struggle is far from the right term here. I'm failing to see where it is not "well-rounded" enough to handle either of those armies adequately, unless I'm missing something (and thus why I asked for your list examples).

Leenus wrote:
Your side was pretty much lost when you suggested "punishers" as a counter to hordes. It clearly shows that you're missing Therion's point that a list and its units must be flexible to handle top tournament lists. A punisher is far from that. There are always "tailored" counters (and a punisher isn't even THAT good).

*sigh* I didn't "suggest" Punishers. It was a list of the things that IG have that can deal with Hordes that GK do not. As simple as that.

Leenus wrote:Assuming the punisher comment was just a momentary blackout in your reasoning, I don't think you fully appreciate the strength of cleansing flame.

You're probably right here. I haven't played against it, just number-crunched it.

Leenus wrote:With some careful tank shocking / positioning, the purifiers can charge a unit of 30 boys and they will almost entirely wipe them out in 1 phase.

And that would be exactly what they would want. I'll give you a unit of Boyz for 4 x 52 Shoota shots at your Purifiers. And if you get out to kill those Boyz, you're not in your transports anymore. And even with Cleansing Flame and 10 (or more?) attacks, you may not even stack a wound on the Nob. If you killed 15 with Cleansing Flame and 10 with Close Combat attacks, you still haven't hit the Nob. He swings back for 1-2 dead, then they don't make them as tough to kill when you can open up all your shots on your turn.

More later. . .late for dinner

So to sum it up ig are going to auto loose because gk are going to hide dreads behind transports, cluster their entire army or half of it into a 6" diameter bubble around the librarian for a 3+ cover save that indirect fire from manticores will ignore/make it a 6+ cover along with vendettas that scout 24" to the side also ignoring transports as cover lowering it to a 6+ cover for the dreads.

puma713 wrote:
And that would be exactly what they would want. I'll give you a unit of Boyz for 4 x 52 Shoota shots at your Purifiers. And if you get out to kill those Boyz, you're not in your transports anymore. And even with Cleansing Flame and 10 (or more?) attacks, you may not even stack a wound on the Nob. If you killed 15 with Cleansing Flame and 10 with Close Combat attacks, you still haven't hit the Nob. He swings back for 1-2 dead, then they don't make them as tough to kill when you can open up all your shots on your turn.

More later. . .late for dinner

Riddle me this... How are you going to take 4x52 shots at a unit of purifiers? Think about this one for a while, maybe over dinner. Purifiers charge a unit of boys, cleansing flame kills ~12, attacks kill ~4... Let's say you kill a couple back with boys AND fist. ~10 more guys die from fearless. You now have ~4 guys left. But guess what... We are LOCKED IN COMBAT. I don't believe you can shoot into combat. Moreover, the purifiers are likely to wipe the remaining boys, including nob, before the next round of combat is over, allowing them to charge again next turn.

Obviously, there are a lot of variables with positioning, but I'm trying to convey the strength of cleansing flame. It gets nastier when 2 or 3 units get into a squad of boys. Let's not forget how difficult it is to get that many shoota boys into range without clumping up and getting wrecked by flamers next turn. If the purifiers go crazy and DO wipe the squad.. I'd happily trade 150 point ELITE for 220+ point TROOP, adding that the your troops are likely in a worse position relative to my flamers.

This is all getting a bit too heavy into theory, but you're stubbornly refusing to see that this list has answers to hordes. It has an even BETTER answer to hordes when you realize that it is rare to fight a complete Green Tide of 6 30 man boys units in competitive events (i.e. this GK list can handle the extremes adequately, but doesn't typically have to. It will typically have to fight mech, which it is well suited to do).

Leenus wrote:
Sorry, what "Most of the BA builds" and "Most of the SW builds" that you have seen will it struggle against? Would love to see examples of each. I find it hard to believe an army packing that much melta fire with deep strike negating abilities and str8 rifle dreads would have that much "trouble" against BA or most SW. Struggle is far from the right term here. I'm failing to see where it is not "well-rounded" enough to handle either of those armies adequately, unless I'm missing something (and thus why I asked for your list examples).

What, do people have to put exact lists every time they make a comment about any army now? That's a bit ridiculous.

The guys I know who have played BAs have used either lots of jump troops (not necessarily DOA style, they are pretty good flying across the table) backed up by baals and razors; or various assault troop nastiness pooring out of double land raiders. Both of which would be very hard for this army. The assault troops are perfectly suited to this army. Their speed blows past all the melta guns, they can multi assault 3+ chimeras at a time easily, and when the chimeras blow up most of the guys inside die. Not to mention a fair amount of their own shooting to compliment the very threatening assault element.

Wolves is the typical 3 long fangs, and tons of grey hunters in razors and rhinos. 3 long fang units will have the dreads completely shut down by turn 2. Then the razors are as good against the chimeras as the chimeras are the razors. And they also have a strong assault element and very good psychic defense.

This has sort of devolved into "If you don't think this list is the greatest thing since sliced bread you must be an idiot". Funny that it has come to that since this thread was supposed to be about whether or not G/Ks were weak. I don't think anyone is seriously saying they will be weak, or even the posted list is weak. But it has its own uphill battles, and the constant questioning of other people's credentials just because they disagree with you is tiring.

Leenus wrote:

puma713 wrote:
And that would be exactly what they would want. I'll give you a unit of Boyz for 4 x 52 Shoota shots at your Purifiers. And if you get out to kill those Boyz, you're not in your transports anymore. And even with Cleansing Flame and 10 (or more?) attacks, you may not even stack a wound on the Nob. If you killed 15 with Cleansing Flame and 10 with Close Combat attacks, you still haven't hit the Nob. He swings back for 1-2 dead, then they don't make them as tough to kill when you can open up all your shots on your turn.

More later. . .late for dinner

Riddle me this... How are you going to take 4x52 shots at a unit of purifiers? Think about this one for a while, maybe over dinner. Purifiers charge a unit of boys, cleansing flame kills ~12, attacks kill ~4... Let's say you kill a couple back with boys AND fist. ~10 more guys die from fearless. You now have ~4 guys left. But guess what... We are LOCKED IN COMBAT. I don't believe you can shoot into combat. Moreover, the purifiers are likely to wipe the remaining boys, including nob, before the next round of combat is over, allowing them to charge again next turn.

Sure. But if you have more than 1 unit of Purifiers locked, the Boyz are dead. If you don't, that means there is a unit of Purifiers that are open to shooting from Lootas (their Rhino/Razorback) and then Boyz (the ones that aren't locked). We keep talking about this game like it is in a vacuum when it never is. We can theoryhammer all we want.

Leenus wrote:It gets nastier when 2 or 3 units get into a squad of boys. Let's not forget how difficult it is to get that many shoota boys into range without clumping up and getting wrecked by flamers next turn. If the purifiers go crazy and DO wipe the squad.. I'd happily trade 150 point ELITE for 220+ point TROOP, adding that the your troops are likely in a worse position relative to my flamers.

Again, assuming that the Orks have done nothing in however many turns it takes to get into these positions (2, maybe) to all these flamers. And if you're trading your 150 ELITES for the 220+ TROOPS, that's fine. That would leave 3 more TROOPS (90 Boyz) to deal with your last 20 Henchman.

Leenus wrote:This is all getting a bit too heavy into theory

Agree.

Leenus wrote:but you're stubbornly refusing to see that this list has answers to hordes.

Actually, I'm not. I'm with the fact that it has Cleansing Flame and Heavy Flamers. I'm completely aware. It seems like you're blindly thinking that a horde army will have nothing to deal with heavy flamers. As if the people writing those lists have never thought, "What if they bring Heavy Flamers?!" If you're playing a horde list, what is one of the first things you look for in the enemy army? Blasts and templates.

Therion was making it out to seem like it was the ultimate anti-horde army. So, in response, I asked him how he would deal with a Green Tide, which he answered, 'That's not competitive. Give me a competitive list.' Sort of like you just did. Yet, I see them at competitions all the time. In the practice for the ATC locally, a Green Tide won. Last year's 'ard Boyz, 2nd place in Chicago Finals was a Green Tide. It's not unheard of. Maybe in your meta.

The point was that ArtfcllyFlvrd made some points that Deadshane1 and Therion apparently took offense too. I provided a counter-discussion to what was cropping up and it led to this. All in all, you're right - way too much theory, but I think both sides should realize that neither has all the answers.

Therion wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Therion wrote:I'm with Deadshane on this one. It's way too early to tell but my instinct is that if one codex had to be put up for the pedestal then GK would be the best army in the game now. The army can be built to shoot as hard or nearly as hard as IG while still retaining an incredible amount of special abilities and viable counter-assault capability which the IG doesn't possess.

I couldn't disagree more, Therion-- Coteaz seems almost like a complete red herring for competitive play to me. When BS 3 Henchmen in Chimerae with Psyfleman support go up against BS 4 Veterans in Chimerae with Hydra/Manticore/Vendetta support, it isn't too hard to figure out what will happen.

Dreadnoughts are point by point even better firepower than Hydras, the previous kings of that role. Hydras are still awesome though because they bring the most tanks per point meaning they're quite resilient. Fortitude lessens this difference a bit. In the troops choices however there isn't a competition. 97 points for 3 Meltaguns in a Chimera is always more desirable than 155 points for Veterans with 3 Meltaguns in a Chimera. Why? Because naturally it'll leave more points for additional tanks and units.

Just for numbers comparison, my GK at 1750 points has a combined 50 heavy/special weapons. Many of them are BS4 and/or twin-linked. Some are BS3. My favorite Mech IG list has 57 heavy/special weapons in the same points limit. It has much fewer meltas, no crazy guns like S8 autocannons or psycannons, absolutely zero counter-charge, no power weapons, doesn't block scouts and infiltrates, cannot shoot at deep strikers, doesn't have any psychic defence like the Reinforced Aegis bubbles, and overall only edges out in the amount of tanks department. My GK has 12 vehicles at this limit while my IG has 15. Like I said previously, marginals are small but the GK are simply better overall. Perhaps they're completely equal heads up but against all comers in random terrains and missions? It's not even a hard one to figure out. GK have it.

I'm just going to quote Deadshane who posted after me and also stress the fact that 40K in my opinion is in a state of good enough balance. This means every army can be beaten, but if we're analysing tournament army lists on their own it's impossible for me to agree that IG would be better than the new GK. There's a number of quite problematic opponent/mission/terrain combinations for IG that won't be nearly as challenging for the mech GK.

Mech IG are not very good i have not lost to one yet and i play a Kan wall green tide
what you should be asking is how many Leman russ can GK take?? none, come again, so it was OP for Orks to have
1 leman russ but IG can have 9

MY mate plays 5 leman russ battle tanks and BA have a cry so i think GK will too

Green tide autowin against marines obviously, since marines don't take heavy flamers and have only one attack, obviously green tide OP?

Frankly GK have far better options against Green Tide than most marine armies. 4x incineratior squads, cleansing flame, 30point S5 large blasts, S5 bolter spam (now threatens vehicles too), etc etc. With the given list it is better to just pop the lootas with long range fire and just run in circles around the hoard while flaming anything that comes close. One can tarpit some mobs with the dreads while clensing flame the other units. If your vehicle wall control worked out right one might even multicharge with purifier while in contact with only a few models (the orks needs to spread out to not get flamed silly) and just multi-cleansing flame for mega death. (possibly killing two units in out turn) There is 9 vehicle hulls for a reason after all.

Like I said previously, marginals are small but the GK are simply better overall. Perhaps they're completely equal heads up but against all comers in random terrains and missions? It's not even a hard one to figure out. GK have it.

I don't know, that list looks like awfully few scoring models here, and they often have to get to suicidal range to use their weapons. That just isn't good if you have to cap many objectives and actually use the meltas in the same game.

Mahu wrote:If you take the typical Guard list (i.e. Leafblower or Hydra Spam, etc. ) assume the IG player will make no changes, and then compare them to a competitive build from a new codex, yes, I can see where the devaluing of Guard that some players have comes from.

Like any army Guard will just adapt to the ever changing Meta game and keep on trucking.

I believe Grey Knights will struggle a little against Guard, but that really is a situational statement.

Shrouding on a Librarian is Guard's primary concern, but that does place a big target on the Librarian's head. As a guard player if I can alpha strike the Librarian's ride and PBS him off the table (which is unlikely, but possible) then I win that game. Period.

I will say a good Guard Player versus a good Grey Knight player is more then likely to be a coin flip. Give Guard some time to adjust, I just don't see them really sweating Grey Knights anymore then they sweat Space Wolves, Orks, or Blood Angels.

IG adjustment = more plasmaguns at the minimum.....

freddieyu1 wrote:

Mahu wrote:If you take the typical Guard list (i.e. Leafblower or Hydra Spam, etc. ) assume the IG player will make no changes, and then compare them to a competitive build from a new codex, yes, I can see where the devaluing of Guard that some players have comes from.

Like any army Guard will just adapt to the ever changing Meta game and keep on trucking.

I believe Grey Knights will struggle a little against Guard, but that really is a situational statement.

Shrouding on a Librarian is Guard's primary concern, but that does place a big target on the Librarian's head. As a guard player if I can alpha strike the Librarian's ride and PBS him off the table (which is unlikely, but possible) then I win that game. Period.

I will say a good Guard Player versus a good Grey Knight player is more then likely to be a coin flip. Give Guard some time to adjust, I just don't see them really sweating Grey Knights anymore then they sweat Space Wolves, Orks, or Blood Angels.

IG adjustment = more plasmaguns at the minimum.....

Plasma is the option that always comes up in discussions like this, and you know? Still isn't taken. Since it isn't cheap, and it gets negated against cover. If GKs relied of FNP, I almost could see it, but people didn't even add plasma when DE came out, which is a T3 army with FNP the only way to get a decent save on most things. Plasma is the easy and wrong answer.