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Therion wrote:Once you get out of your basement and get playing to the real world you'll 'see this happening'.


Unnecessary. Just because someone doesn't agree with your "20-30 hours of metagame and armybuilding 'work' that multiple tournament veterans and GT winners" doesn't mean that they don't have a point and aren't worthy of having a mature discussion with.

At least Fetterkey gave figures as to why he believes what he does rather than personally attacking the other person with emoticons and anecdotal evidence.


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puma713 wrote:Unnecessary. Just because someone doesn't agree with your "20-30 hours of metagame and armybuilding 'work' that multiple tournament veterans and GT winners" doesn't mean that they don't have a point and aren't worthy of having a mature discussion with.

At least Fetterkey gave figures as to why he believes what he does rather than personally attacking the other person with emoticons and anecdotal evidence.
Therion subscribes to the Imperial school of argument.

A logical argument must be dismissed with absolute conviction!

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Fetterkey wrote:You are not only using bad metrics, you are wrong even under those metrics. Each Hydra gets 4 BS3 TL S7 shots for 75 points; each Psyfleman gets 4 BS4 TL S8 shots for 135 points; each Venerable Psyfleman gets 4 BS5 TL S8 shots for 195 points.


Hydra vs. AV 11: 3 hits, 1 pen
Psyfleman vs. AV 11: 3.5556 hits, 1.7778 pens
Venerable Psyfleman vs. AV 11: 3.8888 hits, 1.9444 pens

Hydra scores one pen per 75 points, Psyfleman scores one pen per 75.94 points, Venerable Psyfleman scores one pen per 100.29 points. The Hydra does slightly more damage per point, even without factoring in its ability to ignore Skimmers Moving Fast (which makes it twice as good in comparison to the other two against the appropriate targets in most cases), its heavy bolter, or its increased range.


Hydra vs. AV 12: 3 hits, .5 pens
Psyfleman vs. AV 12: 3.5556 hits, 1.1852 pens
Venerable Psyfleman vs. AV 12: 3.8888 hits, 1.2963 pens

Hydra scores one pen per 150 points, Psyfleman scores one pen per 113.90 points, Venerable Psyfleman scores one pen per 150.43 points. The Psyfleman is the most efficient here against AV 12 targets by far, though the Hydra is still more efficient than the Venerable Psyfleman. However, that's because Hydras aren't for targeting AV 12 vehicles, and IG have another-- better-- tool for dealing with those targets, namely:

Vendetta vs. AV 12: 2.25 hits, 1.125 pens

Vendetta scores one pen per 115.56 points, making it very slightly worse than the Psyfleman. This is made up for by:


Vendetta vs. AV 13: 2.25 hits, 0.75 pens
Psyfleman vs. AV 13: 3.5556 hits, 0.5926 pens
Venerable Psyfleman vs. AV 13: 3.8888 hits, 0.6481 pens

Vendetta scores one pen per 173.33 points, Psyfleman scores one pen per 227.81 points, Venerable Psyfleman scores one pen per 300.88 points. One might point out that this isn't a particularly fair comparison, because Psyflemen aren't for AV 13-- but you could (and indeed should) say the same about Hydras and AV 12.



Unless any of the Guard vehicles are stunned/shaken, in which case they're doing nothing.

Meanwhile the Dreads still fire at full effect.....that makes up your points...in spades.

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A logical argument must be dismissed with absolute conviction!

Thanks for your charts mate. They were excellent.

As far as his argument was concerned, there was no logic in it. He ignored 90% of what I said and tried to argue from the position where we have an open table, no mission and all that the GK have is Rifleman Dreadnoughts of two variants and if the Vendettas and Hydras can outshoot or match their firepower my argument that the Grey Knights are a more powerful and more flexible tournament army is invalid. That aspect is the only part of the game the IG even competes in.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2011/03/29 18:44:04


 
   
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Therion wrote:Once you get out of your basement and get playing to the real world you'll 'see this happening'.



Comments like this really don't help.

It's much better for all concerned if we could stick to being polite, and respecting what others are saying even whilst disagreeing with them. The put downs and digs don't do anything except put people's backs up and foster an atmosphere that we'd really rather avoid on the site.

Much obliged.

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Dreadnought FTW.

I'll be on Vassal 2nite.

C you there.

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I said this before when they came out with the new dex, awesome nemesis force weapons and jump packs, and termie troops aside, its going to cost a lot of points, sure you can jump an entire troop across the field and take the objective, but what kind of support are they going to have? They have to rely on some termies in the back to lay down enough fire to keep them from getting chopped to bits? or the Dreadknight? So often with their army lists your going to be throwing all your eggs into one basket its going to be very hard to try and deversify and get a balanced army together. your either going to go with one superbadass group of super-ultra-mega-nob-veterans or your going to get a thin coating of all the different elements of an army, IMHO.


 
   
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Therion wrote:As far as his argument was concerned, there was no logic in it. He ignored 90% of what I said and tried to argue from the position where we have an open table, no mission and all that the GK have is Rifleman Dreadnoughts of two variants and if the Vendettas and Hydras can outshoot or match their firepower my argument that the Grey Knights are a more powerful and more flexible tournament army is invalid. That aspect is the only part of the game the IG even competes in.


Your point that GK are "a more powerful and more flexible tournament army" can't be settled at present, so I focused instead on addressing the elements of your argument that were grounded in objective fact instead of supposition. We could continue saying "IG > Coteaz builds!" "No, Coteaz is more flexible!" for quite some time, but until we have a solid period of post-adaptation competitive tournament results to draw from that can't really be proven either way.
   
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For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

Psyflemen seem like a better buy than vendettas to me, and this is coming from an exclusively IG and GK player.

Hydras however seem on par with Psyflemen, in the sense that their increased firepower makes up for decreased resilience and mobility, which is not a huge concern in an IG list with many AV12 hulls, but which is a concern for a GK army with less AVs and more required mobility. Each unit suits the list it is in well.

However the venerable Psyfleman... it has no excuse for me. The ability to avoid penetrating death 1/3 of the time and to avoid meddlesome glancing immob/wep destroy 1/3 of the time does not merit a 45% increase in cost. The 9% increase in firepower from BS5 is laughable. The fact that they compete with purifiers, vindicares, and paladins rather than lackluster Heavy choices is the nail in the coffin. I would not take a Ven Psyfleman.

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Gitzbitah wrote:
For all of that, the ever overlooked MANZ has a decent chance. Puriflame will only yield 1 or 2 hits, and an equal number of MANZ to a purifier squad will take about 3 deaths to melee if the manz charge. 10 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds, ID. If they charge, it goes to 15a, 8h, 4wounds, ID. Then the Manz hit back from being charged and flamed- 18 attacks, 9 hits, 8 wounds. 8 purifiers down, the flames once more won't land a wound, 4 attacks from the remainder, 2 wounds, ID, and the 3 surviving MANZ wrap things up. It isn't a clean solution, but it would work if you really needed it to.


So six meganobz, that are more expensive than the 5 purifiers, win combat? No way! In fact, now that I look closer at your post, you seem to imply that the meganobz kill 8 purifiers the first round, but you've only calculated the purifier damage output for 5. That should be 6 ID wounds, 8 if the purifiers are charging. Doesn't seem as good anymore, does it?

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For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

This is what I've been trying to argue, while also reminding that while the GK keep up with the IG firepower they also possess special abilities and extra flexibilities that the IG simply don't have at all, allowing me at this point call them a better tournament army. In my first post I already stressed that the marginals are small and that I wouldn't like to label any army like that but if one had to be put up to that pedestal then it had to be GK.
   
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ph34r wrote:For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.


Except against things like russes, land raiders, and monoliths. Guard still have much better tools to deal with those things.

A list with more than two of the psydreads is going to be a very hard fight for guard, but an easier fight for other armies. Long fangs will beat the out in the ranged game. They won't be able to stop raiders and all the nastiness inside, and lots of units will destroy them in CC. Normal rifleman are difficult for guard and SMs have been able to take 6 of them for years but noone does because 4 AP4 shots doesn't do much once the rhinos are all blown up. I think a G/K player would be stupid not to have one, probably two, much more than that I think isn't ideal. Very very good against guard, but honestly guard is falling out of favor where I am at for SWs and BAs. You need to build well rounded armies and spamming these guys isn't it.

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Therion wrote:
For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

This is what I've been trying to argue, while also reminding that while the GK keep up with the IG firepower they also possess special abilities and extra flexibilities that the IG simply don't have at all, allowing me at this point call them a better tournament army. In my first post I already stressed that the marginals are small and that I wouldn't like to label any army like that but if one had to be put up to that pedestal then it had to be GK.
GK can match IG on LRAT. Also, GK have things that IG don't have. I don't think that was ever in question.

You are forgetting that IG have things that GK don't have:
-demo vets
-power blobs
-manticores
-plasmacutioners
-orders
-special weapon PCS/CCS
-PBS
-rough riders
-etc.

Judging them as a "better" tournament army that this point is meaningless.

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Therion wrote:
For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

This is what I've been trying to argue, while also reminding that while the GK keep up with the IG firepower they also possess special abilities and extra flexibilities that the IG simply don't have at all, allowing me at this point call them a better tournament army. In my first post I already stressed that the marginals are small and that I wouldn't like to label any army like that but if one had to be put up to that pedestal then it had to be GK.


Yeah but to keep up with guard you really need to invest most of your points in shooting, if not all. And then all the other "abilities" disappear. If you have options that are point for point equal or slightly better, but I have 100% invested in shooting and you have 50%, I'll still win the shooting game. I'm not saying G/Ks aren't great, I think they are over the top, but a GK that tries to get into a pissing contest with guard is going to suffer immensely against other armies.

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Agreed on all counts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/29 19:20:37


 
   
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ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
ph34r wrote:For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.


Except against things like russes, land raiders, and monoliths. Guard still have much better tools to deal with those things.


....for which they have other tools. Unless they decide to simplyl glance them to shut them up.

Landraiders/russes=Borked once they're 24" or less away. (by psycannons & Henchmen Melta)

Monolith=who shoots at monoliths? Fine, I'll shoot at it....with possibly one of the best weapons TO shoot at it with in the game. Get up there and hit it with Warp Rift....byebye.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote:
Therion wrote:
For what's it worth, the data indicates to me that GK will not have a problem keeping up in the long range anti tank department with IG.

This is what I've been trying to argue, while also reminding that while the GK keep up with the IG firepower they also possess special abilities and extra flexibilities that the IG simply don't have at all, allowing me at this point call them a better tournament army. In my first post I already stressed that the marginals are small and that I wouldn't like to label any army like that but if one had to be put up to that pedestal then it had to be GK.
GK can match IG on LRAT. Also, GK have things that IG don't have. I don't think that was ever in question.

You are forgetting that IG have things that GK don't have:
-demo vets
-power blobs
-manticores
-plasmacutioners
-orders
-special weapon PCS/CCS
-PBS
-rough riders
-etc.

Judging them as a "better" tournament army that this point is meaningless.


You forgot Ogryns

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/29 19:23:28


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Yeah but to keep up with guard you really need to invest most of your points in shooting, if not all. And then all the other "abilities" disappear

Incorrect. 1750 points example:

HQ
-Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz: 100p
-Inquisitor, 2 Servo Skulls: 31p
ELITES
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns: 220p
TROOPS
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p

50 heavy/specials.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/29 19:25:59


 
   
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Deadshane1 wrote:You forgot Ogryns
I try to forget that unit exists.

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Central MO

Therion wrote:
Yeah but to keep up with guard you really need to invest most of your points in shooting, if not all. And then all the other "abilities" disappear

Incorrect. 1750 points example:

HQ
-Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz: 100p
-Inquisitor, 2 Servo Skulls: 31p
ELITES
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns: 220p
TROOPS
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p

50 heavy/specials.


That army's bark is much worse than it's bite. And you have created bascially an all shooting army like I said. All you have is 15 S4 PW attacks, and the rest is guard redux. All the armies that are going to rock guard will rock this one just the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/29 19:31:07


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And the mech-hench list dissolves even more quickly out of transport, while its "in effective range" firepower is BS3 rather than BS4.

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That armies bark is much worse than it's bite. And you have created bascially an all shooting army like I said. All you have is 15 S4 PW attacks, and the rest is guard redux. All the armies that are going to rock guard will rock this one just the same.

Is that so? Servo skulls, I've been expecting you, Spy Network, 3x Cleansing Flame, Psychic Pilots, Aura of Faith, Aegis, Reinforced Aegis, force weapons on demand etc don't count for anything? If you've taken that all into consideration and still claim that then I can't say anything else except wait and see.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/29 19:36:09


 
   
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ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Therion wrote:
Yeah but to keep up with guard you really need to invest most of your points in shooting, if not all. And then all the other "abilities" disappear

Incorrect. 1750 points example:

HQ
-Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz: 100p
-Inquisitor, 2 Servo Skulls: 31p
ELITES
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Lascannon, TL Plasma Guns: 220p
TROOPS
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, 2 Warriors, 2 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 113p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
-3 Warrior Acolytes, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Heavy Flamer: 97p
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
-Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p

50 heavy/specials.


That army's bark is much worse than it's bite. And you have created bascially an all shooting army like I said. All you have is 15 S4 PW attacks, and the rest is guard redux. All the armies that are going to rock guard will rock this one just the same.


Wow......speechless. I suppose footdar will teach it a lesson eh?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/29 19:35:09


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Wow......speechless.

Thanks It's only my starting point, the setting that I've ordered models and stuff for. Then I'll start adjusting it and see if the 22 meltas etc. is the correct amount or if I can add something else.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/29 19:41:30


 
   
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Therion wrote:
That armies bark is much worse than it's bite. And you have created bascially an all shooting army like I said. All you have is 15 S4 PW attacks, and the rest is guard redux. All the armies that are going to rock guard will rock this one just the same.

Is that so? Servo skulls, I've been expecting you, Spy Network, 3x Cleansing Flame, Psychic Pilots, Aura of Faith, force weapons on demand etc don't count for anything? If you've taken that all into consideration and still claim that then I can't say anything else except wait and see.


You do have a few new tricks, but from a guard army of similar size you lose:
Any real anti horde shooting
Any heavy anti tank shooting (what amounts to assault cannons in a unit of 5 marines is not that tough)
Any ability to negate cover
Any ability to negate LOS
Any reliable shooting AP
Any abililty to move more than 12" (unless purifiers have to 30" thing, but I don't think they do, even so 15 T4 3+ models is not hard to deal with)
Any ability to attack LD characteristics & multiply your force
And orders
Not mention you have no ablitive wounds so every casualty eats into special weapons and expensive models.

I'm not saying it isn't good, but > guard I'm not sold on. Guard redux at best.

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ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Therion wrote:
That armies bark is much worse than it's bite. And you have created bascially an all shooting army like I said. All you have is 15 S4 PW attacks, and the rest is guard redux. All the armies that are going to rock guard will rock this one just the same.

Is that so? Servo skulls, I've been expecting you, Spy Network, 3x Cleansing Flame, Psychic Pilots, Aura of Faith, force weapons on demand etc don't count for anything? If you've taken that all into consideration and still claim that then I can't say anything else except wait and see.


You do have a few new tricks, but from a guard army of similar size you lose:
Any real anti horde shooting
flamer on every Chimera, Psycannon, autocannon?
Any heavy anti tank shooting (what amounts to assault cannons in a unit of 5 marines is not that tough)
6x Multimeltas? Autocannons again. Meltaguns
Any ability to negate cover
who needs it?
Any ability to negate LOS
again, unneeded with this much firepower
Any reliable shooting AP
rending? Meltaguns?
Any abililty to move more than 12" (unless purifiers have to 30" thing, but I don't think they do, even so 15 T4 3+ models is not hard to deal with)disembark, kill everything?
Not mention you have no ablitive wounds so every casualty eats into special weapons and expensive models. interesting, every single model has a special weapon and you've managed to turn that into a disadvantage.

I'm not saying it isn't good, but > guard I'm not sold on. Guard redux at best.


What the.....? Losing any semblance of credibility at lightning speed here.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/29 20:02:35


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Deadshane1 wrote: I suppose footdar will teach it a lesson eh?


No, but a Green Tide might. Or Stealer Shock with Catalyst. But, Footdar might not do so bad either.

Deadshane1 wrote:flamer on every Chimera, Psycannon, autocannon?


Yeah, most horde players I know don't know how to deal with mass heavy flamers at all. They usually clump up. Sometimes they do it in cone-shapes.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
You do have a few new tricks, but from a guard army of similar size you lose:
Any real anti horde shooting
Any heavy anti tank shooting (what amounts to assault cannons in a unit of 5 marines is not that tough)
Any ability to negate cover
Any ability to negate LOS
Any reliable shooting AP
Any abililty to move more than 12" (unless purifiers have to 30" thing, but I don't think they do, even so 15 T4 3+ models is not hard to deal with)
Any ability to attack LD characteristics & multiply your force
And orders
Not mention you have no ablitive wounds so every casualty eats into special weapons and expensive models.

I'm not saying it isn't good, but > guard I'm not sold on. Guard redux at best.


I agree with some of ArtfcllyFlvrd's assessments. Manticores and Medusae would have ball with all those chimeras, making a lot of 3-man footslogging units with 12" assault, or 24" heavy weapons. And the only weapon that can deal with them at range would be the Dreadnoughts. Make sure you grab a WH Inquisitor as well to mess with Fortitude. A decent list, yes (based on opinion), but not without flaws.

Course, he did say this was his initial template, not his set-in-stone tourney list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/29 20:03:15


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Deadshane1 wrote:
What the.....? Losing any semblance of credibility at lightning speed here.


You have no blast weaponry. I play mech gaurd w/ chimera heavy flamers. The 6" move + 8" template is not very good. It's better than nothing, but it gets you closer to the enemy and almost always prevents you from firing your multi laser

And psycannons are not a good horde weapon. 4 shots ~3 hits ~2-3 wounds = 1 dead ork in cover. Your 20pt psycannon will make it's points back on turn 4 after the orks have Whaaged in your face and ignored your flamers range.

Again, not saying the army is bad, but I definetly don't think this is the best list that can be made out of the book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/29 20:07:13


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puma713 wrote:
Yeah, most horde players I know don't know how to deal with mass heavy flamers at all. They usually clump up. Sometimes they do it in cone-shapes.


The good mech players dont NEED you to oblige them...they'll force it with creative tank shocking.

Cute comeback though.

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Deadshane1 wrote:
puma713 wrote:
Yeah, most horde players I know don't know how to deal with mass heavy flamers at all. They usually clump up. Sometimes they do it in cone-shapes.


The good mech players dont NEED you to oblige them...they'll force it with creative tank shocking.

Cute comeback though.


Thanks.

Actually, I think ArtfcllyFlvrd's point was that certain mech builds stop the Horde before you're forced to use your 8", close-encounter, hull-mounted weapon to stop them. And after you've used them to kill I dunno, 60 or so of the 180 Boyz that are in front of you, then you can deal with the other 120 that you couldn't deal with at range.

Edit: Anyway, I was just lurking. I didn't want to get caught up in this, "my listbuilding is better than yours!" manhood-measuring, but it seems I got 'tangled' up in it anyway. "We'll See" is what I'm taking away from the conversation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/29 20:14:32


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ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

You do have a few new tricks, but from a guard army of similar size you lose:
Any real anti horde shooting There should be a heavy flamer on each Chimera hull, and there's a huge pile of high ROF weapons (heavy 4 Psycannons, 6 TL Autocannons, a bunch of Storm Bolters, Multilasers, etc)
Any heavy anti tank shooting (what amounts to assault cannons in a unit of 5 marines is not that tough) 6x TL Autocannons at str8 (basically 12 TL Krak Missiles) each turn in addition to 22 Melta weapons isn't AT shooting?
Any ability to negate cover the majority of armies don't really have this, and usually cover negating weapons are AP4 or higher anyway
Any ability to negate LOS Again, most armies can't do this. I'm not sure why it's super relevant?
Any reliable shooting AP 22 AP1 weapons and 6 weapons shooting 12-24 rending shots per turn isn't shooting AP?
Any abililty to move more than 12" (unless purifiers have to 30" thing, but I don't think they do, even so 15 T4 3+ models is not hard to deal with) Sure. Is this absolutely a requirement? 10 transports should get stuff where it needs to go shouldn't it?
Any ability to attack LD characteristics & multiply your force it's arguable if a Psyker unit is even required for IG, so what is the relevance of having it or not? I don't see this as a weakness in the GK list in question what-so-ever
And orders the bigger issue here is that the Melta fire coming from the GK army is BS3. Orders are nice, but not really super necessary, nor would they really be missed. Losing that point of BS compared to vet squads however is important
Not mention you have no ablitive wounds so every casualty eats into special weapons and expensive models. Have you played mech IG much? The ablative wounds in the vet and CC units don't really matter. Usually the unit is forced out of its transport and killed, or it stays in there all game. Very rarely do I find the extra 7 bodies to matter with my IG. If I could pay 50pts less per unit to just take the special weapon dudes and leave the grunts at home, I probably would.

I'm not saying it isn't good, but > guard I'm not sold on. Guard redux at best.

   
 
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