Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just remember seeing a battle report of how orks got tabled by this totally unoptimized list
http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-602-6653-0-Thoughts-after-playtest-Grey-Knights.htm

So, in response, I asked him how he would deal with a Green Tide, which he answered, 'That's not competitive. Give me a competitive list.' Sort of like you just did. Yet, I see them at competitions all the time. In the practice for the ATC locally, a Green Tide won. Last year's 'ard Boyz, 2nd place in Chicago Finals was a Green Tide.

If there are examples, you can just bring the lists here. The point of asking for a list is to prevent someone using tailored counter lists to discuss balance.

SWPIGWANG wrote:If there are examples, you can just bring the lists here. The point of asking for a list is to prevent someone using tailored counter lists to discuss balance.

Librarium-online wrote:2 warbosses on bikes attached to a single 10 nob biker squad with all the trimmings, 3 units of 9 lootas, a unit of deffkoptas w/rokkits, and 5 units of 25 slugga boyz w/powerklaws

That was the ard Boyz list that won 2nd in the Finals.

SWPIGWANG wrote:I just remember seeing a battle report of how orks got tabled by this totally unoptimized list
http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-602-6653-0-Thoughts-after-playtest-Grey-Knights.htm

That battle was with the leakdex, though...

That was the ard Boyz list that won 2nd in the Finals.

Won second? Ard Boyz is 2500 points, isn't it? At that points level the 5 man Purifier teams are already 10 man Purifier teams in 6 combat squads total for twice the amount of psycannons and twice the amount of cleansing flames.

That battle was with the leakdex, though...

The GK army in that thread is terrible and from what I can see the only thing that changed in his army for the actual 'dex was that teleporting PAGK are FA not Troops. It was pretty fun to see him wipe out 80 Orks with just 8 Purifiers though.

Therion wrote:

That was the ard Boyz list that won 2nd in the Finals.

Won second? Ard Boyz is 2500 points, isn't it?

Taking 2nd is nothing to sneeze at, considering that he had to place top 3 in two previous tournaments (most people use the same army) to get there. Also, given that Ard boyz prizes in the semi/final range are usually pretty swank, winning 2nd is pretty accurate (we all know its about the lootzorz).

edited out a quote fail.

puma713 wrote:

rovian wrote:

Kirasu wrote:*snip*

reall wolves have a strong chance how does thunderwolf get nerfed by a power weapon as half will hit and 1 third wound and 2 thirds are saved?

Because out of the 3 wounds that your 5 Thunderwolves take, with a successful psychic test, they're all ID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jmurph wrote:The big meta shift they do is make plasma more useful

/agree

But 1 half hit 1/3 wound and 2/3rds are saved

Good luck with that, if he's riding in a chimera along with an Inquisitor.

Yeah, I keep forgetting that Weaken Resolve doesn't effect stubborn units (a rules interpretation I don't agree with). Oh well, I can always pin the hell out of that unit though.

Also don't forget Mahu that if he's within 12" of a Dreadnought you need to roll a 5 or less to get the power off in the first place. Reinforced Aegis does have a point afterall

But seriously. This has been a fun read. It's a 5th edition codex. It's balanced w/the other 5th edition codexes.

Let's crunch the numbers.
Five purifiers (3 normal and 2 psycannons) shoot at and then charge 30 orks (29+ nob with powerklaw).
Shooting kills (let's grant the orks a 4+ cover save because we're feeling generous) around 2 orks.
Cleansing flame kills 11 orks
Marine attacks kill 4 orks.

Purifiers kill 17/30 orks and then the orks swing back

12 boyz (slugga/choppa) hit with 18 attacks, causing 6 wounds. Let's say that 2 marines die.
Then the nob swing with 3 attacks. Let's say he hits with 2 and kills 2 more marines.
The single remaining purifier win combat by 13 and the orks are most likely wiped.

If the orks get the charge on the purifiers then the grey nights are wiped at the cost of about 16 orks (I'd take it if I were the ork player).

So is that a good or a bad unit v unit given that the purifiers are 140 pts and the boyz are 215?

sourclams wrote:So is that a good or a bad unit v unit given that the purifiers are 140 pts and the boyz are 215?

Depends on how you view ork blobs. As PK delivery, or as massed attacks. If its the first, unit is still effectively intact (nob still alive), the second, probably not since you lost most of the unit's mass.

sourclams wrote:So is that a good or a bad unit v unit given that the purifiers are 140 pts and the boyz are 215?

Or 220 with a bosspole
The problem for the orks at 1500-1750 points is that they are running 3-4 of these large boyz squads at most (assuming balanced list with lootas and other support; perhaps a kan wall even). You've taken a huge chunk out of the army and ripped open a flank/path to an objective. Point-for-point trading is only one consideration. Let's also not underestimate the psychological trauma the ork player will suffer when his 30 boyz are wiped by 5 marines.

Wouldn't that be a colossal failure for the Ork player regardless of whether they view the boy mob as a massed assault unit or a PK delivery system?

If the Purifiers charge, the Orks lose all their models. The Ork player has lost a significant chunk of his army in an unfavorable unit v unit trade, has lost a significant area of the table / his force projection is diminished, and the Orks, including the PK nob are all dead and have no potential, as a unit, to recover through gameplay, luck, or underdog style events.

Furthermore, that single remaining purifier still has 60% of the combat potency of the original squad. You've made a horrible trade in models and resources, and the majority of the threat still exists.

Hulksmash wrote:Also don't forget Mahu that if he's within 12" of a Dreadnought you need to roll a 5 or less to get the power off in the first place. Reinforced Aegis does have a point afterall

But seriously. This has been a fun read. It's a 5th edition codex. It's balanced w/the other 5th edition codexes.

That is going to be rare, as most of the time Grey Knights are going to be rather fielding psyriflemen in the back field, and the range of weaken resolve is 36", so a dread will have to get aweful close to start messing with it. A closeness the Guard player will be perfectly happy with.

The best situation is to nail the Librarian outside of hood range who is not in a squad with an =][=. At that point, the PBS still needs to make a leadership 8 test (not that hard) and cause 25% causalties, (a little harder, especially with shrouding). It's a long shot, but if I was going for the alpha strike, I would take the bet.

If an =][= is there, I would just simply switch over to the blast template.

PBS is still a good choice, even against Grey Knights, so I don't see them disappearing from my list. Not unless I want to take a WH =][= lord to try and disrupte Fortitude and the Shrouding, which has been very tempting after my first couple of test games last night with the Grey Knight/IG match up.

Does reinforced aegis affect units casting within 12" or if the target is in 12"?

Ok, this discussion has drifted into some tangential (and largely irrelevant) topics, but the heartbeat of the thread still exists, is the grey knight codex too good, too weak or just right?

If I haven't already stated my position clearly, it is my opinion that the grey knight codex is very strong. They are going to do very well in competitive tournaments. As a regular attendee and judge of 'serious business' no comp tourneys, and as an owner of space wolves and imperial guard tourney lists, and as someone who has played 8 games now with the actual codex, against a fully mechanized blood angels army, a fully mechanized IG army, a fully mechanized dark eldar army and a "mechanized" tyranid army (that mechanization coming in the form of tervigons). This data set and some analysis has led me to some conclusions, which I'll share.

The marquis unit in the codex in my opinion is the dreadnought. I have been surprised by the emotionally charged refutations I have received on this statement before. People just don't want this to be the good unit. 5th edition 40k is a mechanized game. I don't love that truth, but arguing against it is going against all of the tourney data my gaming group has compiled in 18 months of competitive tourneys, and generally accepted wisdom on the internet. It is not "just the same dread that space wolves and space marines and blood angels have". It amazes me how undervalued the +1 strength, reinforced aegis and fortitude combination are. Any one of those things would be very nice to add to the already solid "rifleman" dread. All three of them at a total increase of 10 points? The dread doesn't do everything. it isn't AP2, and so it does indeed struggle against 2+ armor and 3+ armor FNP monstrous creatures. But it is an absolute terror to medium and light vehicles, which are abundant in competitive 40k.

The purifiers would probably be my pick for second most dynamic unit in the book. They add to the mechanized gunline profile with their access to razorbacks, they add some pretty extremely effective counter-assault, and are also armed with a substantially powerful special/heavy weapon. And they can pack a pair of them, making the weapon fire from that unit more effective without support. I could attempt to explain how good cleansing flame is, and then continue with an explanation of how much more devastating it is if you manage to have two unit with cleansing flame involved in one combat. And I could explain how good initiative 6 force weapons are, on models with two base attacks. But they should speak for themselves. the units are not so expensive, and are not so focused on assault that they draw away from the shooty nature of the list. They are just an excellent fit.

Henchman could have a massive essay written on them. Access to the poster-child special weapon of 5th edition (the meltagun) access to a vehicle with firepoints to allow that special weapon to be used within dangerous proximity to enemy units. Able to include quite powerful CC models to their units should they feel it neccessary. Servitors, jokearo for longer range fire power, or just providing 3 meltaguns, a heavy flamer and a multi-laser on an armor 12 platform for UNDER 100 points.

50 point razorbacks with 36" range strength 6 BS4 twin-linked shots, are available in both the troops and elite slot...


Those are the units to talk about in a vacuum, but they also create synergies with each other. these synergies take a collection of good units, and make them a great army. autocannon dreadnoughts are just tall enough to see over a razorback, but are short enough that from most angles they'll be receiving a 4+ cover save. Most people are taking that for granted, the army has enough long range firepower to draw most armies in towards them, where their mid-range psycannons and storm bolters and their short range assault potential will be devastating. my blood angel opponent, after two back to back games, commented that my list both outshot his list, AND out-assaulted his list. His tuned and tourney ready list, needed to go back to tech support, after encountering a dreadnought/purifier/crowe list.

A librarian can provide a lot to this army as well, the psychic hood is not mutually exclusive with the reinforced aegis, and the pair of them will do a great job of muting the output of psychic powers of enemy units. He also brings a consistent 16% survivability increase to the dreadnoughts, which are providing the support needed to draw enemies in.


Relevant armies in the competitive metagame will have to make concessions to this army.

Imperial guard will need to be very specific on their target priority. Since they are mostly not worried about strength 6, and since they will have time before the psycannons can get within 24" and then become stationary, they will need to very efficiently and very swiftly deal with the dreadnoughts. All vendetta fire, all hydra fire, and all manticore fire, need to dump on them. Chances are, if IG got the first turn, they should be able to kill two of the dreads, making the game quite winnable. If they didn't get first turn, and their vendettas are eliminated quickly by the dreadnoughts, then they can find themselves out of tools to take out the dreadnoughts. It will seem ok until the psycannons arrive, and then their parking lot will be taken out from table center, and they won't be able to tank shock-contest.

Dark Eldar has to roll very well on first turn, or on their arrival from reserve. Night shields can make them nearly invulnerable for most of the game from both razorbacks and psycannons, but the dreadnoughts will absolutely need to be eliminated. Unfortunately, the dark eldar player can not rely on a crew shaken to buy him time and move on to another unit. there is no psychic defense here, and so this game will mostly come down to how well the DE player could roll on a pivotal early turn.

Space wolves are in relatively good shape. With no long range ap3, and likely no plasma coming at their two premiere units, then they just need to play the same game they have been playing against IG. Toughness 5, storm shields and fenrisian wolf bodyguards will keep them safe from the worst of the force weapons and cleansing flame. However, the cav unit will be called upon to make a significant number of 3+ saves from psycannons and some storm bolters. Long fangs will be quite excellent in this matchup though.

Blood Angels might want to make some adjustments. i like the idea of outflanking baals to negate frontal cover saves for the dreads, but unfortunately dakka predators probably don't provide the amount of suppression needed to silence fortituded dreadnoughts. There are plenty of options in that codex, and i am not worried about them here, they'll just need to make an adjustment or three.

Tyranids are coming out of this new codex in pretty decent shape. Not any worse than before... Dark eldar and space wolves did way more to their competitiveness than this book could. tyrannofexes are nearly unkillable, and tervigons, especially with catalyst, are likewise. While dangerous, tervigons actually match up pretty favorably against 5 man grey knight units with force weapons. They'll need 6s to wound, and then they'll have to pass a shadow in the warp psychic test. All the while their lack of invulnerable saves will see them losing models and effectiveness quickly. Genestealers suffer quite a bit against purifiers, but then, they were already suffering against chimera walls...


Long story short. GK are definitely going to be instantly relevant in the competitive tourney games. But just about every competitive army that exists can make a few adjustments and have a relatively reasonable matchup. Some won't be too happy about their matchup, but thats just life at the bleeding edge.

And also, i've become aware that there are people who just don't want to agree with me, or with a lot of what is being said in threads like this. Some of these people are getting emotional, angry, or having some other irrational reaction to this. I don't really understand it, but i don't want to make people angry either. If you are one of these people that having a disporportionate reaction to my replies, I apologize. I'm not on this board to piss anyone off, I'm just a participant in this discussion.

Shep wrote: my blood angel opponent, after two back to back games, commented that my list both outshot his list, AND out-assaulted his list. His tuned and tourney ready list, needed to go back to tech support, after encountering a dreadnought/purifier/crowe list.

That's how I felt about the old 3rd ed chaos book. And what did you see? 2/3 of the tournament armies were CSM. Thats how lots of people felt about about Daemons in fantasy, and what did you see? 2/3 of all fantasy tournament armeis were daemons. That's what some people feel now about space wolves, and what do you see? 2/3 of the tournament armies (at least at the chicago bunker) are SW.

I really can't see someone beating a decent GK army unless A) they are a significanly better player or B) they tool to beat them. I think the stuff is sooo good and so freaking cheap its shot to the top of the running for best book around. I don't know about anyone else but the first tournament I run into more than one of these armies I'm gonna start tooling against them. I'll fight uphill against every other opponent, but if these guys get as popular as I think they will be I'm bringing an army specifically for them. Call me vindictive, but I don't like bandwagons!

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote: but if these guys get as popular as I think they will be I'm bringing an army specifically for them.

You already have been. Any army that wasn't anti-marine wasn't competitive before.

Shep wrote:*snip*

Well said, Shep. Thanks for the insight.

I was reading the Codex (which I had the fortune of being able to buy early for attending my GW's 'birthday') on the loo this morning and decided to calculate the cost of the fairly small army on the back cover of the book - 34 models @ 2743 points!

Unanything wrote:I was reading the Codex (which I had the fortune of being able to buy early for attending my GW's 'birthday') on the loo this morning and decided to calculate the cost of the fairly small army on the back cover of the book - 34 models @ 2743 points!

GW picture armies have nothing to do with being good, but looking cool. Though that is probably the most ridiculous one yet.

Great post Shep.

What was good before (armywise), stays good, but some of it may need tweaks.

What was bad before, is still bad.

GK change the meta but don't break it... although they could possibly magnify it, since Purifiers are one of the best anti-horde hard counters to have ever existed in the recent incarnations of 40k.

I'm hardly a veteran, but new codex release seems always follow same pattern...

1. New book announced. "Hey, New Codex coming up! I hope they fix XXX!"

2. Ppl gather up rumours and start to ponder about builds. "XXX is much more powerful in New Codex, and in addition they get YYY and ZZZ! That is so broken! GW must be mad!"

3. Inevitable counter-reaction..."Meh, I don't think XXX or YYY are that great. And ZZZ won't fly in todays mech-heavy metagame. If anything, the book seems weak."

This phase is followed by so many flame wars that even a Burna boy would get jaded...

4. Book is released. Some people are joyoys, some disappointed. "I'm totally starting New Codex army now!" "I have played New Codex since 1998, and this book totally destroys the spirit of the army. I will quit 40k forever!" "Is it OK to use my Black Templars as count-as New Codex?"

5. Hyper-New Codex is announced, everyone forgets about the previous book, and cycle begins anew...

Most hype I've seen was upon current IG book, which many people thought completely insane, largely based on tremendous amount of new artillery they got. Well, IG are one of the strongest books, so I guess part of the hype was justified...personally I'm not terribly worried about GK, but that's because I play Tau...

Man, i think the "drive up and melta" armies are what gets "hard countered by default" by GK with their mutlipurpose rifle dreads, and troops with psycannons both killing that strategy. DE/Eldar is the other countered list with glance proof AV12 S8 dakka auto-countering their mech lists. Hoards can be killed by spamming purifiers.

Fortitude rifle dread shooting simply means opponents needs more heavy AT, above the transport suppression level of S6/S7 to keep running mech.

Strangely enough while GK itself counters hoard, its effect on the meta may boost hoard by pushing other mech lists into expensive lascannons and lowering their number of shots thrown.

It would be kinda amusing if all this lead to Tank Hunting foot black templars on the top tables....

The grey knights HAVE THE SAME WEAKNESSES AS MARINES BUT WITH LESS NUMBERS. They get terminators with FNP, and can remove 1 deathstar model with a big f you. The main thing that makes them powerful: ITS A PSYKER ARMY.

They can razorspam like regular marines too, tey can go I.G. style with that special character and henchmen. It all comes down to the dice and the army list and how you play them. Expect to get your butt kicked, expect to be massacred. Elitest armies such as the new GK and old Daemonhunters are probably the hardest armies to use. New is intimidating, use the fact no one knows all their rules to your advantage and take your opponent by surprise with some of their powers. Psycannon spam and psilencers seem to be a very popular way people are gearing up for tournies from what Ive been looking into.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:

The grey knights HAVE THE SAME WEAKNESSES AS MARINES BUT WITH LESS NUMBERS. They get terminators with FNP, and can remove 1 deathstar model with a big f you. The main thing that makes them powerful: ITS A PSYKER ARMY.

They can razorspam like regular marines too, tey can go I.G. style with that special character and henchmen. It all comes down to the dice and the army list and how you play them. Expect to get your butt kicked, expect to be massacred. Elitest armies such as the new GK and old Daemonhunters are probably the hardest armies to use. New is intimidating, use the fact no one knows all their rules to your advantage and take your opponent by surprise with some of their powers. Psycannon spam and psilencers seem to be a very popular way people are gearing up for tournies from what Ive been looking into.

The lists I've been messing around building have similar numbers to my codex marines. Only crazy people go all out on paladins, they die to the weapons people fire at termies.

I haven't seen ANYONE actually consider psilencers seriously.

Great post Shep.

I have been playtesting a lot recently with the new GKs primarily against DE and I have to say it looks bad for the xenos. Getting first turn is pretty critical as are the damage rolls against Dreads.

From the games I have played it seems to me at least Coteaz seems almost mandatory. He is cheap, provides deepstrike/outflank defense and allows henchmen as troops. Possibly the most dirsuptive rule he has to DE is "Spy Network". This single rule almost doubles your chances of stealing. Gonna put the fear in DE when they see Coteaz in a list.

And if anyone is interested in seeing some seriously competitive GK lists just take a look at Jy2's batreps. Great reads with good insights and hard as nails lists.