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Deadshane1 wrote:
Three Psychic Powers are death to Guard. Shrouding, Fortitude, and Might of Titan....and whaddya know...guard cannot hood them anymore

WH Inquisitors still have psychic hoods...

notabot187 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:guard cannot hood them anymore.

While I do agree with most of your post, this one I don't agree with, since guard can still take WH inquisitors (which weren't used before because they don't get mystics). If guard will take them remains to be seen though, since they don't do much else.

I dont think many guard players will do this. Even if they do however, a hood is a far cry away from "Breaking" a GK army. They're hardly "for certain" defence against ld 10 psykers.

Better to use those points to bring more gunz.

I don't know where people are getting the idea that GK's can only bring a few guys to the table, for example:

- 10 man BA assault squad, 190pts
- 10 man Tactical squad, 170pts
- 10 man Grey Hunters, 150pts
- 10 Grey Knights, 200pts

They really are not that more expensive than marines, considering they all have storm bolters, force weapons and S5 in CC with their power. Storm bolters alone cost about 2/3 points, so these guys are getting all their neato stuff for just a point or two. Look at razor spam lists. Your gona have about 20-35 men on the table and yet they are competitive.

An interesting comparison would be 10 dire avengers in a wave serpent with blade storm. For about 20 points cheaper, you can take 10 grey knights in a rhino that have a similar shooting ability, are nasty in close combat and are hard as marines to kill. Their CC ability is that of a dedicated CC unit so you don't really need to spend points there.The fact that they are T4 3+ Sv means that you can get away with making more mistakes than you could using something like the two eldar armies.

This talk of upgrades, what the hell do you need to take on these guys!? Run them bare bones and they are killy enough, maybe a flamer if you can, but not much else. I heard something about making their storm bolters S5 for cheep, which could be worth it.

I will admit I have read the codex though myself, but from talk from my friends, I think all you need are about 30-40 grey knights, some long range anti- tank and a couple of templates and I think you have all the basis's covered for an incredibly flexible list.

I guess after the "GK will effortlessly own any and all games" stage, we're now entering the "GK's are pathetically weak! They lost to this 3x6 Long Fang list at my club!" phase.

After bouncing low and high, I still think the curve will stabilize as GK's being a top tier codex, on the strength of the basic package (3+ armor, +1S on many weapons, psykers, spammable henchmen to make up for low-ish model count, etc.) and the option to customize with further units.

As for people saying "they are vulnerable to poor dice rolls!", I have to scratch my head. It's like watching the commentary of a UFC match and having the guys go "You see, Anderson Silva is the top man at his category, but he has a big weakness: he breathes oxygen and has a mouth right under his nose". That's the case for everyone!

I've fought horde armies that bungled on poor dice rolling, making their Lootas underperform severely. It didn't even that that much bad luck: just the wrong roll on a sensitive unit.

Kirasu wrote:The main strength of GK is that they are an extreme meta-game monkey wrench.. Their units arent that expensive for what you get and considering some of their abilities have no viable counter for the opponents theyre meant for

That's not called a monkey wrench, that called broken as ****. Or over powered as ****, whichever you prefer.

And I hate things that have no way to play against them, GKs have tons of them. I also hate things that are underpointed, GKs have tons of them.

Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

sHOEbOX wrote:
I will admit I have read the codex though myself, but from talk from my friends, I think all you need are about 30-40 grey knights, some long range anti- tank and a couple of templates and I think you have all the basis's covered for an incredibly flexible list.

That's the problem. Armour 13+ is going to be painful for GKs to deal with at range, and everything with that kind of armour is lethal in one way or another.

sHOEbOX wrote:- 10 man BA assault squad, 190pts
- 10 man Tactical squad, 170pts
- 10 man Grey Hunters, 150pts
- 10 Grey Knights, 200pts

-10 man Plague Marine squad, 230pts (without Champion)
-10 Man Thousand Sons Squad, 280pts (w/mandatory sorcerer at the cheapest)

Sorry, I had to butt in and parade my tragedy.

But yeah, tell me more about the horrendous, codex-sinking point cost of GK infantry.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's the problem. Armour 13+ is going to be painful for GKs to deal with at range, and everything with that kind of armour is lethal in one way or another.

Armour 13+ is no problem at all for armies that feature Rifleman Dreads. Killing it's not important, so long as it's silenced for a turn....onto the next target.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sHOEbOX wrote:
I will admit I have read the codex though myself, but from talk from my friends, I think all you need are about 30-40 grey knights, some long range anti- tank and a couple of templates and I think you have all the basis's covered for an incredibly flexible list.

That's the problem. Armour 13+ is going to be painful for GKs to deal with at range, and everything with that kind of armour is lethal in one way or another.

AV 13+ is painful for any unit at range, even Lasscannons have issue, needing 4s to have any effect. MLs are only meh against it, needing a 6 to pen. GK cannons (either type) can shred AV 13 as easily as any other army can.

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's the problem. Armour 13+ is going to be painful for GKs to deal with at range, and everything with that kind of armour is lethal in one way or another.

Armour 13+ is no problem at all for armies that feature Rifleman Dreads. Killing it's not important, so long as it's silenced for a turn....onto the next target.

although true a land raider will never be silenced since PotMS will keep least one gun going and thats whats on the table most of the time cept if playing guard with Leman russes

Alphacerberus wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's the problem. Armour 13+ is going to be painful for GKs to deal with at range, and everything with that kind of armour is lethal in one way or another.

Armour 13+ is no problem at all for armies that feature Rifleman Dreads. Killing it's not important, so long as it's silenced for a turn....onto the next target.

although true a land raider will never be silenced since PotMS will keep least one gun going and thats whats on the table most of the time cept if playing guard with Leman russes

The most competetive or winningest lists out there dont feature Land Raiders. So this is a non-issue.

Leman russes can be silenced by riflemen as well (if you've run out of softer/Jucier targets).

Deadshane1 wrote:Yea....I only play against bad/unlucky guard players. Way to enforce a point. You've got this game totally figured out eh? No way to surprise YOU.

I think its more likely that poor Grey Knights players arent factoring common competetive guard builds into their battle plan.

Three Psychic Powers are death to Guard. Shrouding, Fortitude, and Might of Titan....and whaddya know...guard cannot hood them anymore.

Then you've got rifleman (Ven?) dreads and loaded transports poping smoke or under cover while Shrouded.

Figure it out.

Guard just need to focus firepower on the librarian's transport first unless he popped smoke + shroud, then go for a target without cover. If his ride is immobile or wrecked then shrouding and might of titan can't keep up with the rest of the army and/or the army has to slow down to pick up their librarian. Manticores really don't care about shrouding when shooting at MEQ with 3+ armor saves.

Regular non venerable dreads are probably the next priority target. Guard are not defenseless when it comes to blowing up AV12 targets, and fortitude doesn't do much against melta vets as penetrating melta hits are far more likely to kill than stun. The entire army can't stay within 6" of a single librarian.

Last but not least many GK armies won't even have a librarian. GK have too many awesome HQ choices, and many armies that include cortez, draigo, or crowe run the risk of not even having a librarian when they run up against IG.

A mech GK versus mech IG fight seems like a fair fight

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

Warpquake destroys deepstriking armies - which have no counter.
Ridiculous instant death psychic power destroys nids - which have a very expensive, easy to destroy, not very effective counter
Ridiculous everyone takes a wound on a 4+ power destroys orks - which have no counter
Virtually all psychic defense is now 24" or less which brings it into to a mass of SB and Psycannon death.
135 pt dreads that can't be shaken or stunned destroys guard and mech eldar - which have only ok counters
A 20pt marine w/ SB, PW, and a ridiculous amount of special rules out classes most marine armies.
In the same army you get arguably the best CC abilities, and now all the access to cheap effective special weapons of guard, and close to the best long range anti tank (the best long range anti transport).
And to top it all off, you can fit in doubles of all of these things in one 1850 list.

There is no arguement to be made that these guys are underpowered. Maybe it's early to say the sky is falling, but it doesn't look good in my opinion.

I think the GK will have undo power IF the player avoids all the fluffy high priced stuff. If I am reading it correctly for less than 300 points I can get 10 marines, with some I6 power weapons, putting out 16 S5 shots and 4 S8 shots out to 24" range. So playing an 1850 list you can easily field about 50 GK in power armor with 80 S5 shots and20 S8 shots. Sure they have range issues but placing them in Rhinos should give you the protection and ability to get within killing range quite easily. If they get swamped by hoards they will have their issues but that kind of firepower when kept at the 18" to 24" area should prove quite devastating.

The point is, Grey Knight models die just as easily as the other Power Armored models. 10 Grey Knights @ 200 Points die just as easily as your 150 point Grey Hunter Unit, but once you give them a Rhino, they're still cheaper, and can move now. Assault squad 190 Pts. They can move 12" a turn and then Assault 6", not a good comparison. I think the Chaos Marine comparison shines the best candle on their price. Cheers.

Do I think they're underpowered? Nah, do I think they're overpowered? Nah. They're top tier as was stated, but they're not unbeatable, which is what some would have you think. Every army can be beaten and once the key is found, they'll die.

No, what pisses me off about the book most is the dang Inquisitional nonesense that seems to be added as a mere afterthought to the book. As has been stated, some of the most powerful lists out of the book will be formed with Corteaz and his legions of cheap veterans and Psycher battle squads.. sheesh.

A good IG player that foregoes the blanket Ld10 psyhood knowing full well that 3++ Psyflemen are "out there" is simply foolish.

At that point it becomes a duel between two alphastrike armies to see who gets the first shot off or who can roll better on the psyhood test.

sourclams wrote:A good IG player that foregoes the blanket Ld10 psyhood knowing full well that 3++ Psyflemen are "out there" is simply foolish.

At that point it becomes a duel between two alphastrike armies to see who gets the first shot off or who can roll better on the psyhood test.

Even against a hood you could potentially "Shroud" 3 times with a single libby. At least twice.

Doubtful they're going to stop that.

...and not worth the expenditure/FOC slot if you ask me. Not to stop Grey Knight Libbys.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

I would tend to agree that Grey Knights SEEM like they should be tough to use, but in all actuality, the builds people WILL end up using will likely be point and click.

The best example is the Psyfleman Dred spam. That's a pretty hurp-derp build. What skill does it take to put dreds in cover near a libby? Choosing what to shoot each turn? Rolling dice? There's not much there. Add in Razorbacks and support the Libby with a unit to stop deep strikers. That's not hard for any player to use.

Sadly, the problem I see with the codex is that is just isn't interesting or different anymore. Sure, you can play with units that are GK specific, but power lists will end up being Razorspam with silver power weapon toting marines backed up by undercosted Dreadnaughts. Yawn. Or Cortez henchman spam. Backed up by undercosted Dreds. Yawn. Or a fluff abomination mix. Either way, it's just boring.

I think in theory, a balanced GK list is tough to use. However, the power lists don't look like they will be tough to use, new, exciting, or interesting.

JGrand wrote:

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

I would tend to agree that Grey Knights SEEM like they should be tough to use, but in all actuality, the builds people WILL end up using will likely be point and click.

The best example is the Psyfleman Dred spam. That's a pretty hurp-derp build. What skill does it take to put dreds in cover near a libby? Choosing what to shoot each turn? Rolling dice? There's not much there. Add in Razorbacks and support the Libby with a unit to stop deep strikers. That's not hard for any player to use.

Well, I guess this is a game of hurp-derp then. Lash/Oblit spam, Guard Parking Lot/Leafblower, Razorspam with Longfang Missle support, DoA Spam.....Like those all require any more thought than a Psyfleman Dreadspam build. Why should Grey Knights be any different?

(acutally I find this point totally incorrect as a better player will generallly come out on top regardless of if he's running a "herp-derp" build, I love that term btw, or an original build)

Sadly, the problem I see with the codex is that is just isn't interesting or different anymore. Sure, you can play with units that are GK specific, but power lists will end up being Razorspam with silver power weapon toting marines backed up by undercosted Dreadnaughts. Yawn. Or Cortez henchman spam. Backed up by undercosted Dreds. Yawn. Or a fluff abomination mix. Either way, it's just boring.

I think in theory, a balanced GK list is tough to use. However, the power lists don't look like they will be tough to use, new, exciting, or interesting.

So....what? It's impossible to run a balanced dreadspam list with libby support?

Only lists that are more difficult to use are balanced? Whut?

Again, more of the same arguements we've heard before any of the last 4 codex releases.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Yes any player can lose with any codex, but even a half way compotent person behind this book will own. Too many things are army breaking for too little points. A player can build a very resilient list, with just as many bodies as a normal marine army, that has unbelievable rock hard counters to most all of the tournament builds that the other player can't stop. It's a bit ridiculous if you ask me.

This is almost word for word, exactly the same thing that has been said about...the current marine dex, Guard, Wolves, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels.....

In other words, it's gak.

Warpquake destroys deepstriking armies - which have no counter.
Ridiculous instant death psychic power destroys nids - which have a very expensive, easy to destroy, not very effective counter
Ridiculous everyone takes a wound on a 4+ power destroys orks - which have no counter
Virtually all psychic defense is now 24" or less which brings it into to a mass of SB and Psycannon death.
135 pt dreads that can't be shaken or stunned destroys guard and mech eldar - which have only ok counters
A 20pt marine w/ SB, PW, and a ridiculous amount of special rules out classes most marine armies.
In the same army you get arguably the best CC abilities, and now all the access to cheap effective special weapons of guard, and close to the best long range anti tank (the best long range anti transport).
And to top it all off, you can fit in doubles of all of these things in one 1850 list.

There is no arguement to be made that these guys are underpowered. Maybe it's early to say the sky is falling, but it doesn't look good in my opinion.

Keep in mind that nids make it very hard for GKs to get their powers off with shadow in the warp.
Also, many people are skimping or skipping unit that get warpquake, so its not going to be as common as the chicken littles are screaming about.
Purifiers with their power are scary, for sure, but orks hordes are going to suck against GKs anyways, because that army sucks period. Orks have better lists, like burna boyz and nobs in BW(sure, nobs get IDed, but the PK should kill enough to make up for it), kan wall, and even gunline.
Cheap riffle dreads with S8 are cool, but makes up for the lack of other non henchmen long range fire support. No preds, no real devs, hell, even their storm raven don't even have anti tank missiles like BA do. Are you really that afraid of an AV 12 walker? Sure they can take 6 of the things (including vens) but that means they give up other options in those slots.
GKs still get hammered by TH/SS, which are still point for point (and against most targets) the most durable, powerful, and useful assault unit. GK CC units have to specialize, and even then they aren't the best in their field. S5 PW, or S4 force weapons, sound good, but low numbers of attacks doesn't. Crappy invuls on termies doesn't sound good either. Paying an arm and a leg for 2 wound termies with FNP which die to anti termy weapons anyways doesn't sound good.
The "cheap" guard equiv units aren't as cheap as they seem. You have to use HQ slots to unlock them, and that should be added to their cost. GKs get them because they plug holes in what the list can do in terms of points and lack of basic special weapons like melta guns and plasma in a normal PAGK or GKT units.

Sephyr wrote:It's like watching the commentary of a UFC match and having the guys go "You see, Anderson Silva is the top man at his category, but he has a big weakness: he breathes oxygen and has a mouth right under his nose".

See, now you've made a fundamental logical mistake here; Anderson Silva doesn't respire, he subsists on the fear of his enemies.

8 Grey Knights, Psycannon, Rhino, 210 pts
-OR-
8 Grey Knights, Incinerator, Rhino, 220 pts

Shoot the special weapon out of the opening hatch to pop transports/mush infantry.

Purifiers squads are going to make hordes redundant; you can get S6 AP4 flamers for free and can make an enemy unit take a wound on a 4+ for every model in that unit, chances are you will kill about 14 orks before you even hit them with your close combat attacks. And guess what boys and girls, you can take as troops for the price of a 150 point HQ...


6 Grey Knights, TL Las Razorback, 210 pts

Times this by 6 and you get 1,260 points. At 'ard boys, you still have half your points to spend after you have 36 grey knights and 6 razorbacks. You've countered the CC problem that razorback lists seem to have with the knights inside, and you can go for the TL lascannon because you have so many power weapons you don't need the plasma and you can't fire the two guns whilst moving anyway. Lascannons shouldn't have to many problems with glancing AV13 to uselessness.

You could then take 3 riflemen dreads with S8 shots for 135 points, 4 TL S8 shots each on a armour 12 plaform.

Tbh, that pretty much does it for the long range anti- tank, troops and CC ability for 1,665 points. You now have another 835 points to spend at 'ard boys. Enjoy.

Oh, and did I forget to mention 10 point thunder hammers on each troops choice...?

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Warpquake destroys deepstriking armies - which have no counter.

Don't deepstrike? Deploy in/behind cover?

Ridiculous instant death psychic power destroys nids - which have a very expensive, easy to destroy, not very effective counter

Said above...shadow.

Ridiculous everyone takes a wound on a 4+ power destroys orks - which have no counter

I forgot that charging with a 30 man boys squad is the ONLY way that orks can attack/destroy units. It's not like they have any shooting (lootas/battlewagon burna boys) or HtH that can handle that (Nob Bikers with FNP)

Virtually all psychic defense is now 24" or less which brings it into to a mass of SB and Psycannon death.

Unless you're Eldar. Psychic defense is Gravy....many competetive armies out there dont even have it....and they still own.

135 pt dreads that can't be shaken or stunned destroys guard and mech eldar - which have only ok counters

Yea, eldar runes are only O.K.

A 20pt marine w/ SB, PW, and a ridiculous amount of special rules out classes most marine armies.

....and you base this on....what exactly? Tournament results?

In the same army you get arguably the best CC abilities, and now all the access to cheap effective special weapons of guard, and close to the best long range anti tank (the best long range anti transport).

Best CC abilities? Thats a laugh, they have good weapons and some psychic buffing....AND A SINGLE ATTACK in many cases. Long Range anti-tank is good...thats obvious. Best? Debatable.

And to top it all off, you can fit in doubles of all of these things in one 1850 list.

Not all of it.

There is no arguement to be made that these guys are underpowered.

The reverse is also true. They're not necessarily OVERpowered either....at least no conclusive evidence to that yet.

Well, I guess this is a game of hurp-derp then. Lash/Oblit spam, Guard Parking Lot/Leafblower, Razorspam with Longfang Missle support, DoA Spam.....Like those all require any more thought than a Psyfleman Dreadspam build. Why should Grey Knights be any different?

(acutally I find this point totally incorrect as a better player will generallly come out on top regardless of if he's running a "herp-derp" build, I love that term btw, or an original build)

I completely understand that most power lists are relatively point and click. If they weren't extremely optimized, people would not use them. I was just refuting the point that GK are hard to use. I don't particularly think any type of Marine is that hard to use. When coupled with a min-maxed build, it's even easier. Even something like DoA is easy because the DS element is so toned down. 1d6 scatter is nothing. So, yes I understand using power builds. I just don't really think Dred spam is a good defense to GK being a hard to use elite army.

Though I do agree, the better player usually comes out on top and can overcome other lists as long as they are taking competitive stuff as well. Not necessarily power stuff, but competitive stuff.

So....what? It's impossible to run a balanced dreadspam list with libby support?

Only lists that are more difficult to use are balanced? Whut?

Again, more of the same arguements we've heard before any of the last 4 codex releases.

I guess when I think of a new army, I expect it to be cool and different. GK used to be very different. Now, the are Silver Marines. Sure, you could run Storm Ravens flying Paladins, Termies, and Strike squads around with some Purifiers peppered in. Maybe even a Dread Knight or 2. But that won't happen in the competitive scene. The min-maxed choices are usually relatively obvious to good players. Everyone with a brain knew that Purifiers, Librarians, Henchman, and Psyfleman would be the best stuff from a game perspective. This becomes all people use.

I suppose I simply wanted GK to be aesthetically different. Seeing one of the coolest fluff armies reduced to Razorspam and Dreadnaughts is disheartening. So I guess I'm a bit biased there. I wish they didn't have the choice or Razors (and maybe even Rhinos) but could use the teleporters as troops. Or deepstrike around. Something, anything to make them different.

JGrand wrote:Everyone with a brain knew that Paladins, Librarians, Henchman, and Psyfleman would be the best stuff from a game perspective. This becomes all people use.

I largely agree with your post, and even with most of this statement, but Paladins look like garbage relative to other options. Yeah, if your opponent does nothing but spray you with bolter fire, Paladins are money, and they do perform better than GKTs against plasma as well. But today's meta heavily features S8+ shooting and Pallies just cost too much for the return you get. I could see some modest inclusion at 2500, possibly, but anything lower and they're just a white elephant.

Deadshane1 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:IG have very little answer to Ven Rifleman Dreads with psybolt ammo and fortitude. It's the closest thing to a 4th edition Holofalcon I've seen and it shoots better.

Ding ding ding....put a smoked rhino in front of that dread and shroud them both. What do you have?


....something a guard gunline cannot hurt/shut down but inflicts plenty of pain.

Is that a joke? What if they just shoot you with a Manticore? What if they have Vendettas? What if they drive up and melta you? The venerable psyfleman is probably the most overblown unit since SM Vanguard Veterans were first leaked and everyone started freaking out about the prospect of models assaulting out of deepstrike. It is not effective for its points cost, at all-- not only does it waste the stat upgrades provided by the 60 point Venerable upgrade, which are dubiously worth it to begin with, but it uses a more competitive slot than its non-venerable counterpart to boot! I would take 3 normal psyflemen over 2 venerable psyflemen any day, and for a mere 15 point premium I honestly don't know why people would field the Venerable variant.

Someone is probably going to say "what if you want more than 3 psyflemen" and maybe even post up the 3+3 dreadnought spam list, to which I'll point out that generally armies that spend half their points on suppression units aren't very good, and that even basic competitive builds like Vulkan dual-LR enjoy massive advantages against this kind of unimaginative list.

So you played a whole 3 games against bad/unlucky IG players?

What "certain" GK builds? IG massed shooting alone will take a toll on GKs limited numbers and rip up henchmen GEQs.

I'm with Deadshane on this one. It's way too early to tell but my instinct is that if one codex had to be put up for the pedestal then GK would be the best army in the game now. The army can be built to shoot as hard or nearly as hard as IG while still retaining an incredible amount of special abilities and viable counter-assault capability which the IG doesn't possess.

I would appreciate if people stopped talking like AV13 or AV14 is a problem for GK. You can viably get 26 mechanised melta weapons shooting through fire points into the troops slots alone for about 670 points only. Seriously, how long will it take for you to figure this out?

I guess it'll take a couple tournaments for people to stop imagining GK as a low model count elite army and realise it's an IG and allied Purifiers cake with sickeningly good special rules and psychic powers cherry on top.

I also wouldn't agree for one second that GK will be 'hard to use' as someone suggested. If we're talking Paladins and personal teleporters again then I'll remind you that any bad army list is hard to get wins with against competitive players. The good GK armies autopilot their way to victories just as much or more than any of the other competitive tournament builds out there.

A good IG player that foregoes the blanket Ld10 psyhood knowing full well that 3++ Psyflemen are "out there" is simply foolish.

At that point it becomes a duel between two alphastrike armies to see who gets the first shot off or who can roll better on the psyhood test.

IG are easily good enough to always have a chance to win. The marginals are very small but currently I believe the GK have the edge. A WH Inquisitor brings it close but still not quite there in overall tournament flexibility. Cleansing Flame is what does it for me.

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Virtually all psychic defense is now 24" or less which brings it into to a mass of SB and Psycannon death.

Unless you're Eldar. Psychic defense is Gravy....many competetive armies out there dont even have it....and they still own.

Deadshane wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:135 pt dreads that can't be shaken or stunned destroys guard and mech eldar - which have only ok counters

Yea, eldar runes are only O.K.

Yeah - GK may be one reason why I start favoring my Eldar a bit more. Board-wide Runes and Transports that ignore all those Rending weapons.

Therion wrote:I'm with Deadshane on this one. It's way too early to tell but my instinct is that if one codex had to be put up for the pedestal then GK would be the best army in the game now. The army can be built to shoot as hard or nearly as hard as IG while still retaining an incredible amount of special abilities and viable counter-assault capability which the IG doesn't possess.

I couldn't disagree more, Therion-- Coteaz seems almost like a complete red herring for competitive play to me. When BS 3 Henchmen in Chimerae with Psyfleman support go up against BS 4 Veterans in Chimerae with Hydra/Manticore/Vendetta support, it isn't too hard to figure out what will happen.

Deadshane1 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Warpquake destroys deepstriking armies - which have no counter.

Don't deepstrike? Deploy in/behind cover?

Ridiculous instant death psychic power destroys nids - which have a very expensive, easy to destroy, not very effective counter

Said above...shadow.

Ridiculous everyone takes a wound on a 4+ power destroys orks - which have no counter

I forgot that charging with a 30 man boys squad is the ONLY way that orks can attack/destroy units. It's not like they have any shooting (lootas/battlewagon burna boys) or HtH that can handle that (Nob Bikers with FNP)

Virtually all psychic defense is now 24" or less which brings it into to a mass of SB and Psycannon death.

Unless you're Eldar. Psychic defense is Gravy....many competetive armies out there dont even have it....and they still own.

135 pt dreads that can't be shaken or stunned destroys guard and mech eldar - which have only ok counters

Yea, eldar runes are only O.K.

A 20pt marine w/ SB, PW, and a ridiculous amount of special rules out classes most marine armies.

....and you base this on....what exactly? Tournament results?

In the same army you get arguably the best CC abilities, and now all the access to cheap effective special weapons of guard, and close to the best long range anti tank (the best long range anti transport).

Best CC abilities? Thats a laugh, they have good weapons and some psychic buffing....AND A SINGLE ATTACK in many cases. Long Range anti-tank is good...thats obvious. Best? Debatable.

And to top it all off, you can fit in doubles of all of these things in one 1850 list.

Not all of it.

There is no arguement to be made that these guys are underpowered.

The reverse is also true. They're not necessarily OVERpowered either....at least no conclusive evidence to that yet.

Endlessly quoting gets tiring, so I will respond with numbers.
1. Daemons can't choose not to deepstrike. Pod armies can, but have fun walking all your models to where they need to be while you get shot w/ S5 SBs and psycannons, then charges by all PW marines (a lot of which will be I6). DOA BAs are about the only DS based army that isn't completely hosed.
2. Shadow is not a good answer, it has an extremely short range, and is on units GK's can easily take out before nid's get into combat.
3. Lootas are about orks only non CC option. Maybe they will see a resurgance because of this, but all other CC options get owned by the 4+ wound power or the ID power.
4. They did well because even the most abusive powers were limited to 2 or 4 max on expensive platforms. GKs have power at least as insane as anything else and they have them EVERYWHERE
5. Runes will stop fortitude 2/3 of the time, and the 3++ shinanigans, it won't stop the dred from shooting you face off. If with a SFM it's more likely than not going to penetrate any eldar tank it shoots at.
6. Are you telling me a 20pt SB, PW marines with an insane amount of special rules isn't a bit much?
7. I said argueable the best, which is the definition of debateable. But they can mix up cheap and effective CC and shooting options like no army.

I said it's too early to say the sky is falling, but just because you don't want to believe your next project is over the top don't try and convince people it isn't full of unheard of and overly powerful options.