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Crevab wrote:So the Deathwatch books did expand on the idea of evil Tau.

ah well, it least I can follow GW's own law of canon material and just pretend it doesn't exist.

If you want to ignore it fine, thats okay. But it was made by Fantasy Flight Games with GW supervising. Hell, FFG has a Horus Heresy Board game approved by GW. Don't believe me? Here is the proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4F6PE0ELuY. It seems that GW and Fantasy Flight Games have become very close and it is logical to assume that GW would try and keep a watch over their product and its background so that it doesn't have any really big inconsistencies or at least what GW doesn't believe are inconsistencies.

Um, one question Crevab what army do you play by the way?

Melissia wrote:And in Rogue Trader, you can work with them... or play as them.

What are you talking about Melissia?

Course I believe you. Other than this Tau revelation, I've quite enjoyed what I've read from FFG's works.

That second line is just me being bitter and invested in the wrong game. I like continuity, so rub that up against GW's "it's all propaganda, everything is true" attitude? not the best. For example, I read a blog by Aaron dempski-bowden last week. In one part he relayed that his editor asked him why he would change something that had been set forth in an earlier HH book. He replyed that he thought it was stupid, so he just ignored it.


And what army? all of them.Though Tau were the first to catch my interest.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:To agnosto and KrootHawk. The Warhammer 40k rpg books are that "RPG books" so they are written from an omniscient perspective except for a few parts here and their unless your saying that the description are from an Imperial perspective and I simply don't see it that way as the books describe things that we know but members of the Imperium don't unless of course your saying that the descriptor is the Emperor.

Ultimately, I could care less if Tau are raving lunatics in the fluff and running around offing anything that isn't hooved; it's a game to me and the fluff is more or less just the setting for my little toys to do their thing.

I bring up the perspective of the writing because GW writers are terrible at separating dispassionate facts from the beliefs of an outside source. Heck, even the Tau codex has passages that are written from the IoM perspective, and nothing from a strictly Tau perspective. Which reminds me that I always thought it odd that they wouldn't include passages from a Tau source (i.e. a training manual, diary, fragments of the greater good is good for you guide....anything). Maybe the writers are so bad they can't write anything except from a human perspective.

Meh. People can believe what they want but my Tau are the bunnies of the universe, they hop around the table, trying to avoid death, and deal a little greater good to the oppressed masses. If someone else has a different viewpoint, good for them but it'll never affect my games or the fantasy setting in my mind.

Meh. The Tau don't fight for the greater good as we know it. They fight for the Greater Good as the tau know it. THEIR greater good, to harm of everyone else.

Melissia wrote:Meh. The Tau don't fight for the greater good as we know it. They fight for the Greater Good as the tau know it. THEIR greater good, to harm of everyone else.

At least the Tau didn't turn to chaos and have to be wiped out by Grey Knights...bathe in the blood of the emperor's harlots!

If Chaos deemed the Tau worth attacking at all in any reasonable force, the Tau would have no defense against the corruption of Chaos to begin with.

Surtur wrote:Unity in Fear the Alien. The races the Tau bring into the GG aren't there for the GG. Kroot are looking for a meal. As mentioned before Vespids have the helmet thingy. Tau control populations the way we control pet populations, they're just missing a Bob Barker.

Don't forget to spade and neuter your human.

I think the Tyranids are much more communist and progressive than the Tau, they require they greatest sacrifice to reach greater perfection, they just happen to misunderstood by the short-sighted races in the galaxy. In the end, all of the Tyranids enemies join them, and contribute to the greater progress of the race. The Tyranids are a triumph of life in it's perfected form. Dang, that guy from Jurassic Park was right, nature always finds a way.

Tau are not human, they don't think in a humanlike way. The people who keep ascribing human morality and ethical systems to them are kinda missing he point.

Think about Orks-- in the recent Into the Storm supplement for Rogue Trader, there's rules for playing Orks. They had a page dedicated to the Ork mindset, and how different it was from humans, and even then they only touched on a few things. Orks, for example, have no concept of gender. They do not understand and they do not bother to try to understand. Similarly, Orks can't be seduced through human charms-- their minds and bodies just don't work that way, and hell, their minds and bodies are resistant to the woes of corruption to begin with to the point where they are in essence (with rare exceptions) basically completely immune. The way Ork insanity works is also quite different.

Similarly, Kroot do not suffer corruption in the same way as humans do-- instead tending towards a regression towards their more primitive and feral origins, and their alien mind suffers insanity in an entirely different way, such as having no real concept of sin and penance, and no fear of the dead as we do (the dead are just food to the kroot), etc. They have senses that we do not have, and they lack the history and culture we have.

Tau are similarly alien in their mindset, if not moreso. They did not experience the fifty thousand years of cultural history that we have, they have an entirely different cultural history, an entirely different biological and genetic history. They don't think like we do, and it's nonsensical to claim that their "greater good" is the same thing as in our own moral systems.

Melissia wrote:If Chaos deemed the Tau worth attacking at all in any reasonable force, the Tau would have no defense against the corruption of Chaos to begin with.

That's the other thread. This thread is all about cuddly kittens and how the Greater Good is the only good for you.

No it's not.

Melissia wrote:No it's not.

You're just being obstinate about this, aren't you.

Now look at this kitten.



The kitten likes the Greater Good and would a kitten this cute lie?

Give Tau players a break, everyone hates them, and they know everyone hates them, which causes them to fanboy up, which makes everyone hate them more. It's a vicious cycle. Maybe if people stopped pointing out the Tau's weak points, they would be a bit "cooler," I mean, Eldar are cool, but they're space elves with guns that shoot ninja stars.

Farsight is a beast, even I will admit that.

No, that kitten is scared of the greater good and is running away.

I'm not bashing tau players, just the view that Tau are some sort of mary sue.

Melissia wrote:No, that kitten is scared of the greater good and is running away.

I'm not bashing tau players, just the view that Tau are some sort of mary sue.

Therefore, bashing Tau players.

Mustela wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, that kitten is scared of the greater good and is running away.

I'm not bashing tau players, just the view that Tau are some sort of mary sue.

Therefore, bashing Tau players.

You're the only one insulting tau players here.

Melissia wrote:

Mustela wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, that kitten is scared of the greater good and is running away.

I'm not bashing tau players, just the view that Tau are some sort of mary sue.

Therefore, bashing Tau players.

You're the only one insulting tau players here.

...

What?

Mustela wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Mustela wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, that kitten is scared of the greater good and is running away.

I'm not bashing tau players, just the view that Tau are some sort of mary sue.

Therefore, bashing Tau players.

You're the only one insulting tau players here.

...

What?

You insinuated that all tau players hold the view that Tau are some sort of race of mary sue characters.

That's YOUR doing, not mine.

Again: FFG has a license, that doesn't mean every page is read and edited for background errors by Merrit, see PC games and Goto books.

Then: Of course Deathwatch is NOT written from an omniscient perspective: Even your third Deathwatch quote is full of "rumoured" and "noone can be sure". And the whole territory is threatened by a yet unknown (!) Xeno thread, making humans and Tau mad. 40k has never been about abolute truths, spreading false tracks just to keep everything mysteriuos. Jervis (IIRC) explicitely said that everything is narrated from an in universe perspective so is kind of true for the narrator, even if it contradicts another narrator. And the GW doctrine that noone can write from a Xenos perspective is still widespread (even, if recently some authors like Gav broke that doctrine, all others had no problem to write from High Elf or Skaven perspective or ... gasp ... a woman's perspective (what can be mpre alien to BL writers ).

I agree that wars involve hurting and killing opponents, and Tau have fought Orks and Tyranids without hope for a peace treaty. But history shows that they I don't say they are saints, but they try to spread a form of society where peaceful exchange of goods and knowledge prevails (=common welfare="Greater Good") instead of killing each other (they learned from their civil war times). If you think they are genociding for their ideal of altruism, then you haven't understood altruism (and you can't find any example). Remember, Tau are low on emotions, don't hate other races, don't enjoy enslaving other sentient beings. And even if they wanted (they don't), they are not nearly numerous enough to subjugate a whole Empire (including human planets).

Concerning Kroot: There would be no Kroot race without Tau fighting 10 years along their side. Kroot swore loyalty to the Tau Empire, as loyal as Kroot can be. They are aware that fighting for the Empires enemies like Orks and Chaos is not exactly respectful to that oath, so they don't talk about it. But there is no indication of any kind that Tau ever tried to punish Kroot.
And Melissia meant that you can play a Kroot character in Rogue TraderRPG (I do ).

Concerning posting pics of FFG/GW IP material: Not allowed by forum rules.

Melissia wrote:If Chaos deemed the Tau worth attacking at all in any reasonable force, the Tau would have no defense against the corruption of Chaos to begin with.

The novel Firewarrior is featuring such a conflict and Chaos doesn't succeed in corrupting even one exhausted and above average emotional Tau. So good luck

Excuse my ingnorance, but what is "mary sue"

Mustela: Here's a good explanation:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Essentially, though, in this case it is a reference to a character who is overly idealized and "perfect" and "better" than everyone else.

Kroothawk: I repeat myself:

Melissia wrote:Tau are not human, they don't think in a humanlike way. The people who keep ascribing human morality and ethical systems to them are kinda missing he point.

Think about Orks-- in the recent Into the Storm supplement for Rogue Trader, there's rules for playing Orks. They had a page dedicated to the Ork mindset, and how different it was from humans, and even then they only touched on a few things. Orks, for example, have no concept of gender. They do not understand and they do not bother to try to understand. Similarly, Orks can't be seduced through human charms-- their minds and bodies just don't work that way, and hell, their minds and bodies are resistant to the woes of corruption to begin with to the point where they are in essence (with rare exceptions) basically completely immune. The way Ork insanity works is also quite different.

Similarly, Kroot do not suffer corruption in the same way as humans do-- instead tending towards a regression towards their more primitive and feral origins, and their alien mind suffers insanity in an entirely different way, such as having no real concept of sin and penance, and no fear of the dead as we do (the dead are just food to the kroot), etc. They have senses that we do not have, and they lack the history and culture we have.

Tau are similarly alien in their mindset, if not moreso. They did not experience the fifty thousand years of cultural history that we have, they have an entirely different cultural history, an entirely different biological and genetic history. They don't think like we do, and it's nonsensical to claim that their "greater good" is the same thing as in our own moral systems.

But Tau are an invention by human writers, wanting an idealistic and not subjugating race.

Kroothawk wrote:But Tau are an invention by human writers, wanting an idealistic and not subjugating race.

Yes, because it's impossible for a race to be truly "alien," simply because it was created by humans.

/sarcasm

Nerivant wrote:Yes, because it's impossible for a race to be truly "alien," simply because it was created by humans.

/sarcasm

Actually, it would be impossible for a human to write about something that is truly alien to them. Look up the word in the dictionary. All those Sci-fi books, movies, etc. They all have "alien" characters with human characteristics.

/no sarcasm

Merriam-Webster: differing in nature or character typically to the point of incompatibility.

Only because we readers mentally attribute human attributes to non-human things. It's not impossible to CREATE a non-human thing, it's just difficult to read about it without assigning human attributes.

Melissia wrote:Only because we readers mentally attribute human attributes to non-human things. It's not impossible to CREATE a non-human thing, it's just difficult to read about it without assigning human attributes.

Reading and writing are closely related skills. Look at the 40k universe as an example; even the "mysterious" Eldar aren't all that hard to figure out. It wouldn't be much of a game if you couldn't identify on some level with the denizens of the universe.

Just because someone BELIEVES that they can identify with an alien creature doesn't mean it is true.

agnosto wrote:Actually, it would be impossible for a human to write about something that is truly alien to them. Look up the word in the dictionary. All those Sci-fi books, movies, etc. They all have "alien" characters with human characteristics.

/no sarcasm

Merriam-Webster: differing in nature or character typically to the point of incompatibility.

Incompatible and inconceivable are different things. By the way that you are using the term, nothing at all would be "alien" to humans. Even creatures that are paradoxical; i.e. things that have two traits that preclude each other. For example, "that which exists and does not exist at the same time". H.P. Lovecraft and others thought up and wrote about that stuff, too.

Alien, in a broad sense, means "extremely different". The thought process of an ant, for example, is pretty alien to a human, but that doesn't mean that we can't speculate or even determine how a thing like that might work.

There are more pragmatic reasons that humanoid aliens constantly show up in games and stories.
- Readers/players identify more with creatures to which they are similar
- Writers have an easier time giving creatures personality when they can draw from their own experiences
- It's easier to model something without it coming out to look like a formless blob (especially applicable to 40k - even many Tyranids look humanoid or resemble Earth animals)
- For live action stuff, it's easier to find a human actor and put him in a suit than it is to find an alien actor or use CGI

Xarian wrote:
Incompatible and inconceivable are different things. By the way that you are using the term, nothing at all would be "alien" to humans. Even creatures that are paradoxical; i.e. things that have two traits that preclude each other. For example, "that which exists and does not exist at the same time". H.P. Lovecraft and others thought up and wrote about that stuff, too.

Alien, in a broad sense, means "extremely different". The thought process of an ant, for example, is pretty alien to a human, but that doesn't mean that we can't speculate or even determine how a thing like that might work.

There are more pragmatic reasons that humanoid aliens constantly show up in games and stories.
- Readers/players identify more with creatures to which they are similar
- Writers have an easier time giving creatures personality when they can draw from their own experiences
- It's easier to model something without it coming out to look like a formless blob (especially applicable to 40k - even many Tyranids look humanoid or resemble Earth animals)
- For live action stuff, it's easier to find a human actor and put him in a suit than it is to find an alien actor or use CGI

Heh. Can't see the word "inconceivable" without thinking of Princess Bride...love that movie.

The thing is, if you read any book that involves demons, aliens, monsters, etc. They all have human-like characteristics; usually the darker aspects of humanity. This is especially true of GW "fluff". Could they write from a completely alien perspective? Maybe but it wouldn't be any more believable than this:

Kroothawk wrote:Again: FFG has a license, that doesn't mean every page is read and edited for background errors by Merrit, see PC games and Goto books.

Then: Of course Deathwatch is NOT written from an omniscient perspective: Even your third Deathwatch quote is full of "rumoured" and "noone can be sure". And the whole territory is threatened by a yet unknown (!) Xeno thread, making humans and Tau mad. 40k has never been about abolute truths, spreading false tracks just to keep everything mysteriuos. Jervis (IIRC) explicitely said that everything is narrated from an in universe perspective so is kind of true for the narrator, even if it contradicts another narrator. And the GW doctrine that noone can write from a Xenos perspective is still widespread (even, if recently some authors like Gav broke that doctrine, all others had no problem to write from High Elf or Skaven perspective or ... gasp ... a woman's perspective (what can be mpre alien to BL writers ).

I agree that wars involve hurting and killing opponents, and Tau have fought Orks and Tyranids without hope for a peace treaty. But history shows that they I don't say they are saints, but they try to spread a form of society where peaceful exchange of goods and knowledge prevails (=common welfare="Greater Good") instead of killing each other (they learned from their civil war times). If you think they are genociding for their ideal of altruism, then you haven't understood altruism (and you can't find any example). Remember, Tau are low on emotions, don't hate other races, don't enjoy enslaving other sentient beings. And even if they wanted (they don't), they are not nearly numerous enough to subjugate a whole Empire (including human planets).

Concerning Kroot: There would be no Kroot race without Tau fighting 10 years along their side. Kroot swore loyalty to the Tau Empire, as loyal as Kroot can be. They are aware that fighting for the Empires enemies like Orks and Chaos is not exactly respectful to that oath, so they don't talk about it. But there is no indication of any kind that Tau ever tried to punish Kroot.
And Melissia meant that you can play a Kroot character in Rogue TraderRPG (I do ).

Concerning posting pics of FFG/GW IP material: Not allowed by forum rules.

Melissia wrote:If Chaos deemed the Tau worth attacking at all in any reasonable force, the Tau would have no defense against the corruption of Chaos to begin with.

The novel Firewarrior is featuring such a conflict and Chaos doesn't succeed in corrupting even one exhausted and above average emotional Tau. So good luck

Its a rpg game with fluff to describe a sector and its planets that you will do stuff on. Are you telling me that an Imperial will know what the Tau are doing on a particular planet, that they have no presence on and is far away from them and yet they know how the Tau treat their subjects and what the Tau are doing their simply because they know? Wow I didn't know that the Humans in 40k are omniscient and thus any data we read about alien races is of course their propaganda(even though we know what real imperial propaganda looks like -Imperial uplifting primer) which states that these races can destroy the Imperium. So your saying that the Imperium knows about how the necrons were created or about the "War in Heaven" which happened millions of years before humanity even existed. But of course the Imperium knows because they KNOW!

Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

Moving on, how can you be sure that this is only limited to that Sept. And most of the so called madness is limited on a particular planet or that planet that the Tau are screwing around with and waking up spirits who don't care for the greater good and yet Tau response is to assimilate them into the Tau empire. Thats another thing that just makes me cackle with glee when it comes to the Tau, for the most part the Imperium tries not to screw around with alien structures or artifacts which in this setting makes sense. But the Tau are gleefully digging and butting their ignorant faces into everything which is going to someday wake up something thats going to tear their heads off. And that so called secret threat in that sector, a friend of mine who plays the games and has more of the Deathwatch books told me that the Jericho Reach has a Necron Tombworld located there waiting for something to wake it up.

Remember my quote about the Damocles crusade and Redscare quotes. The Tau want to impose their greater good ideology on the galaxy as well as an empire for themselves with them ruling it, the Tau are not out to free the galaxy from the grip of the Imperium because the Imperium only holds a million worlds filled with humans. If they want to liberate any body they should be focusing on the rest of the galaxy which is filled with Orks. No race that reaches what the Tau, Eldar or Imperium is altruistic. If you truly believe that, you are even more naive than the Tau.

The Kroot don't want the Tau to know that they are still acting as mercenaries because their way of life is "anathema to the greater good" ideology of the Tau. Why would they hide it if their is know punishment? Even we humans follow this rule, if an ally of ours is doing things behind our back and we find out about it we punish them or give them warning not to do it again or we punish them. Simple.

Kroothawk wrote:But Tau are an invention by human writers, wanting an idealistic and not subjugating race.

God-Emperor, Chaos gods, Orks gods and C'tan, please give me strength to sustain myself from these.....argh . The word "Subjugation" as described by merriam-webster.com is "the act or process of bringing someone or something under one's control" and its synonyms are vanquishing, domination. Its related words are defeat.

As for the pics *rage face*, anyway I will be posting those quotes again along with the paragraphs that they are a part of along with additional data for everyone to read and discuss so that everyone can make their own decision on the answer to the question about Tau. I may post the data after two days as I will be very busy tomorrow so bear with me guys and gals(if their are any gals ).

Oh Mellisia, I agree with you completely that the Tau are nothing but mary-sues just like Calgar and Chuck Draigo Norris. Fail GW, extreme fail.