Why do people say the Tau are "good guys"?

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**iproxtaco**

Subjugate, that word again. The Tau will not leave a race or empire alone. The Imperium, such a vast realm that the Tau knew could destroy them, that likely had its own ideals and government, and yet this speck of a race still tried to subjugate what they knew would be an unwilling edition to the Empire. Some Fire Caste commanders called for a war of conquering! Ha! If that's not arrogance and naivety and don't know what is! They couldn't leave the Imperium, they had to try and impose their own ideology on it. The Tau think their 'Greater Good' is above the ways of any other race, and whilst this 'Greater Good' calls for the Tau to try and incorporate other races into the Empire, all those who are unwilling are SUBJUGATED. Their armies destroyed and their people forced to join the Tau. Sure, once they're in the Tau, they are largely valued so long as they fulfil a role in the expansion of the Empire, but that races own destiny that they may have had is gone. They're part of the Tau now, there to serve the Tau's own ideology, the Tau's ambitions and not their own.

**DarknessEternal**

Harriticus wrote:I noticed the whole "sterilization" thing is touted a lot as the Tau being baddies. But outside of DoW are they even mentioned to sterilize?

In the CJ article with human auxiliaries: It also mentions the concentration camps.

**nomotog**

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
nomotog wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:No major army in 40k is 'Good', and no major army barring Chaos is 'Evil'. The Tau are more towards being 'Good' than any other major army. Yeah sure they preach a good ideology, certainly better than "Die Xenos! For The Emperor!", but when it comes down to it the Ethereals would destroy any race that continually refuses to join 'The Greater Good'.

Ok, the join or die lie gets said a lot and it makes a fair amount of sense, but can anyone think of an example? Some time when the tau to wiped out a peaceful race that didn't want to join?

I believe it was called Nimbosa or something like that. And the fact of the matter is that their are a lot of races in 40k not interested in being a part of the greater good and that even if you destroy their military they will never surrender. The only way to be at peace with those type of races is to exterminate them. The Tau are going have to commit Xenocide in the end if they ever want to expand their empire. If not they are going to fail which in the end makes them as bad as everyone else. I would wholly support the Tau if they were not interested in conquest but they are interested and its not because of the greater good. Its good old fashioned Imperialism. I am tired of having to continually post this:

Friend You are blinded by Tau propaganda. The reason the Imperium launched the Damocles Crusade is because of this:

"Exactly when the Tau Empire and the Imperium of Man first made contact with one another is unknown, for each was slow to recognise the nature of the other. For the Tau's part, it was fringe, dissident or overtly renegade elements of humanity that they first encountered, in the form of Free Captains and pirates across the coreward borders of the region called the Damocles Gulf in the Ultima Segmentum to the galactic east of Terra. The initial contacts ranged from friendly negotiations and trade to outright hostility. It was some time before the Tau Water Caste understood the fact that the humans they had encountered were merely the forgotten outcasts of an incomprehensively vast interstellar empire that stetched across the entirety of the Milky Way Galaxy. This empire was so vast, that any overt agression on the Tau's part might lead to the outright destruction of their nascent empire and the extinction of their species.

Though many of the more passionate leaders of the Tau Fire Caste called for a war of conquest against the Imperium, the Ethereals issued their instructions for the integration of the Imperium of Man into the Tau Empire. The Water Caste were to align themselves with nearby dissident human factions and over the course of several decades of patient negotiations insinuate themselves into the courts of several dozen Imperial Commanders (Planetary Governors). The influence of the Tau thus spread further and more rapidly into the Imperium than any amount of military conquest could have taken it, until a swathe of human worlds were trading with the Tau Empire in preference to the Imperium's own merchant trade cartels and Rogue Traders. Alien goods and technology flowed through the markets of these border worlds in blatant contradiction of the laws of the Imperium. The second phase of the Ethereals' instructions were thus ready to be initiated.

Upon a score of worlds, Water Caste envoys whispered long-rehearsed words into willing ears. The seeds of rebellion had long been cultivated by the Tau and now bore traitorous fruit as each Imperial Governor declared himself free of the shackles of the Imperium's rule. In the ensuing power vacuum, the Tau Empire expanded, claiming for themselves those human worlds that came to be known as the Farsight Enclaves.

The Imperium's response was unusually swift but characteristically brutal. War was declared and the Damocles Gulf Crusade was launched by the Ultima Segmentum Command, involving units of the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy and the several Chapters of Space Marines. "

"the manifest destiny of the Tau to expand the Greater Good across the galaxy. "

I would like anyone reading this to take the analogy of what would happen if the USA was paying no attention to Mexico and generally ignoring Mexicol until it started using their hidden negotiators and manipulators caused Hawaii to secede from USA and join Mexico. I'm sure I don't have to say that America would not be happy about this development.

I looked up Nimbosa on the lexicanum and it was when the tau took advantage of a hive flee invasion to steal some worlds. It's sneaky, but wasn't what I was looking for. I want to know any examples of the Tau killing off a peaceful race.

From the sound of it, it seems like a lot of the tau evil is in the realm of "common knowledge"(Stuff that everyone "knows", but that there is no evidence to support it. It just feels true). That is not to say they don't do evil things, but when people say things like "The Tau use kroot as cannon fodder" or "The Tau kill anyone who dosen't join the empire" I want to know where that information comes from.

Edit: I was leafing thrugh my codex and found nimbrosa. It's listed under the koloth gorge massacre and it's quit evil. It starts off with the tau expanding into the IoM. The IoM is busy with hive fleets so they send some diplomats to the tau as a stalling tactic. It dosen't work. "Led by commander Brightsword, the full weight of the tau fell upon nimbosa and the colonists fought to the last, not a soul surviving the final attack." It was brutal. When the IoM, finally got to the planet, the tau lured them into a trap surrounded them and massacred them. Thats where the name comes from. It's a fin example of the Tau being brutal, but after this battle, the Tau recall commander Brightsword. He gets censured for being so brutal and unforgiving in the battle.

**1hadhq**

nomotog wrote:"The Tau kill anyone who dosen't join the empire" I want to know where that information comes from.

Codex Tau Empire.

There is a reason why a certain group refrains from citing their own codex.
Anyone else still waiting for Codex Tau empire, 5th ed rulebook/Expansions, BL novels quoted to prove any point one may like to make?

The Background of Tau is rather flexible since they are a new addition to 40k.
Latest course of GW was from "new optimistic upstart race who believes in uniting the galaxy under the greater food" to a "new optimistic upstart race who believes in the greater food but only trusts those who are under their absolute control".

Steps:
- new race, with an ally ( kroot ), see a bright future since they don't know better.
- new race, with 2 allies ( vespids, kroot ), still caught in their own dogma but first elements leave ( Farsight ).
- naive race, just growing up, running into opposition but cannot identify who to evade ( meet&greet incidents ).
> not contributing to combined efforts against different galaxy wide threats may isolate the Tau empire and those who know the darkness of the 40k verse wouldn't bet on Tau's survival. The incoming Nids, rise of Necrons and common daily threats of greenskin and chaos point to more open conflict to come.
=> this eternal war setup does not need any Good guys / bad guys. Just participants in a struggle nobody ever wins....

**agnosto**

1hadhq wrote:Latest course of GW was from "new optimistic upstart race who believes in uniting the galaxy under the greater food" to a "new optimistic upstart race who believes in the greater food but only trusts those who are under their absolute control".

Skip dinner?

**Kroothawk**

augustus5 wrote:Sure they are. Any race that will not submit to the Tau idea of the greater good is open game to them. They must be eradicated in order to spread the greater good.
The Greater Good works when the point of a rifle is telling it's citizen that it works. Tau are nothing more than another race forcefully spreading their way of life and stamping out all those who oppose it.
How is that? The Tau have already been known to eradicate those who won't become a part of their society. They are emulating the Great Imperial Crusade which attempted to bring all of humanity under the banner of the Emperor of mankind. Those who accepted the Emperor were brought in peacefully; those who didn't want to give up their culture or way of life were brought to their knees by the Astares. I see no difference between the two. Both the Imperium and the Tau wish to impose their way of life upon the galaxy to bring peace.
The Tau are hard core socialists. Look at socialist societies in the real world and see that they are among the most harsh and brutal regimes in human history. The state is elevated above the common man, and anyone who dares speak out against the state is dealt with horribly.

That's an impressive list of totally made up stuff that is crowned by a lack of knowledge of what socialism is.
Of course you can't quote a source for any of your statements, right? But true hate doesn't need a foundation in facts, I guess

**Redscare**

augustus5 wrote:
The Tau are hard core socialists. Look at socialist societies in the real world and see that they are among the most harsh and brutal regimes in human history. The state is elevated above the common man, and anyone who dares speak out against the state is dealt with horribly.

You... have no clue what socialism is, do you? The fact that your banner says United States both scares, and annoys me, to no end. Please, and I don't want to sound too rude, but please, for the good of the country, learn about political ideologies before ever participating in politics.

Still, with that said, I do believe what you think about the Tau is somewhat agreeable.

**Luke_Prowler**

I think that the Imperium of Man and the Tau empire are exactly the same, but the Tau are just more subtle about it.

**Sledgio**

Because Tau are awesome!

no, seriously, i just think its because they have much fewer bad qualities than most other races. They brainwash Vespids while the Imperium commit genocides. They 'reeducate' you, while Eldar plot and deceive. Their system works, while the Orks just make war for fun, and have a 'bigger is better' mentality. Their hierarchy also works perfectly, with everything harmonising while Chaos yell "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" They're generally less bad, rather than more good. And they have negotiators of the water caste (I think it's water) who help with negotiations (what a surprise). So, they are definitely less bad.

**Xarian**

augustus5 wrote:I would guess that the Eldar, as they are now, after the Fall, are the closest thing you might be able to compare as "good guys." The Eldar realize they are a doomed race and expend the last of their efforts trying to keep the galaxy from falling under the control of Chaos. Although they are doomed, Eldar society would probably be the best society to live in in my opinion.

The Eldar, as a whole, are so incredibly weird that I'm not really sure what to think of them.

Every Eldar feels the call to war at some point. Every Eldar eventually feels a state of ennui unless they are hardcore adherents to the Paths, and with their enhanced emotional and cognitive abilities, they feel it much stronger than any other race. They have to try very hard not to fall into depravity.

From the inside of the Eldar society, the Eldar most assuredly are the "good guys". Eldar from different craftworlds tend to support each other much more than the other races (except, perhaps, for mainstream Tau). They all fight for the salvation of the Eldar race, even Alaitoc, who quite a few of its own citizens consider a huge pain in the ass to live on.

From the outside, however, the Eldar are neutral and capricious at best, and xenophobic and genocidal at worst. They don't want to help or kill humans, for example; humans are simply not important at all. An analogy would be asking your average person today how they feel about goldfish. For most Eldar, killing a human would elicit about as much emotion as a human stepping on an earthworm. If you you come home one day and find earthworms all over your living room floor, you try to take them outside and dump them in the yard - if they don't want to leave, you squish them all; pretty much exactly how the more magnanimous Eldar treat humans living on Maiden worlds.

The Tau are a young race, getting more background with every new codex. I am very interested to see what happens with Farsight, for example. Personally, I think that the Tau were originally the "good guys" - a young, innocent race ready to take on the galaxy - much like the Imperium probably was when it first started (back before the Legions, even), and like the Eldar in their heyday. As they take their bruises, however, I expect to see the Tau to take on a much more mature, dark, and pragmatic nature.

**Kroothawk**

Redscare wrote:You... have no clue what socialism is, do you? The fact that your banner says United States both scares, and annoys me, to no end. Please, and I don't want to sound too rude, but please, for the good of the country, learn about political ideologies before ever participating in politics.

You understand such statements better, if you see them as an unreflected expression of maximum hate.
In conservative USA, the standard swear word in politics is "socialist" or "communist". In conservative Europe, it is mostly "Nazi". That's why the Tau are called commies in USA and Nazis in Europe, even when a caste system led by spiritual leaders has no similarity with either.

You will also understand the weekly Tau hater threads better when you realize that Tau haters NEVER quote sources, because there are none. And they rarely react to official quotes disproving their made up statements, ready to post them in the next Tau hater thread unmodified.

**DorianGray**

Another thread where everyone is gonna say Tau sterilization camps... from a totally none canon source.

Haters gonna hate.

**1hadhq**

Kroothawk wrote:
You understand such statements better, if you see them as an unreflected expression of maximum hate.
In conservative USA, the standard swear word in politics is "socialist" or "communist". In conservative Europe, it is mostly "Nazi". That's why the Tau are called commies in USA and Nazis in Europe, even when a caste system led by spiritual leaders has no similarity with either.

You will also understand the weekly Tau hater threads better when you realize that Tau haters NEVER quote sources, because there are none. And they rarely react to official quotes disproving their made up statements, ready to post them in the next Tau hater thread unmodified.

Nice.
Again the same unfounded claims of europes views upon Tau.
You have stored these nonsense for ease of use, sure?
Either back that statement up with examples or deem yourself worse than those "haterz", cause I find it offending to have fellow europeans falsly accused of calling Tau nazis.

Maybe you should begin to quote sources, but as usual, there is only the complaints of "Tau-haterz" .
Shall I count your "official quotes" ?
1 (outdated and incomplete designers notes )
.....

Seems not much. Maybe expand to 2 ?

DorianGray wrote:Another thread where the space marine fanboyz can go EMPEROR IS THE ONLY PURE GOOD, DEATH TO XENOS!

and then go on hating all non-humans. In a purely racist kind of way. Logic: Tau not human = evil = die.

Haters gonna hate.

Such an impressive post.

Did anyone mention the Emperor in this thread? No?

Maybe calling other posters racist fanboys isn't the way to go on Dakka.

**Kroothawk**

Well, if the designer's explicit intention is not enough, how about this explicit text from the Battlefield Gothic rules:

As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return.

Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.

And no, "the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties" is not an alternative English expression for "genociding the hell out of all underling Xeno scum".

But I agree that if GW lets Mat Ward write the next Tau Codex, some things might change: He made Blood Angels and Necrons buddies, Inquisition hire Xenos and Grey Knights slaughter Sororitas and bath in their blood to not succumb to the temptation of the Blood God no less

Maybe we should all start a fake Necron hater thread, claiming all Necrons to be social democrats or catholics or something,, because ... like ... everybody knows they are social democrats and catholics! Have a look at the cross on their Monolith! And how every Warrior is equal! We need more hate for other armies as well! Join the hate, screw facts, just let it out!

**Adam LongWalker**

AndrewC wrote:

WDs 261 (US) and 262 Aus, I can't find the UK issue number.

I will admit that the background has 'darkened' between Tau and Tau Empire, but the original design was for a 'good' race.

Cheers

Andrew

I have to agree with Andrew C. When the Tau was being sold in my region, almost all of the GW staff, from management to employees to regional manager, were pushing that the Tau were "the Greater Good", emphasizing the "Good" aspect . A race that had auxiliaries of other races that were under their sphere of influence.

Now? The Tau Empire reminds me of Fish headed socialists, with mannerisms of brutality from the Stalin era of the USSR.

And I hate every aspect of it.

**nomotog**

1hadhq wrote:
nomotog wrote:"The Tau kill anyone who dosen't join the empire" I want to know where that information comes from.

Codex Tau Empire.

There is a reason why a certain group refrains from citing their own codex.
Anyone else still waiting for Codex Tau empire, 5th ed rulebook/Expansions, BL novels quoted to prove any point one may like to make?

The Background of Tau is rather flexible since they are a new addition to 40k.
Latest course of GW was from "new optimistic upstart race who believes in uniting the galaxy under the greater food" to a "new optimistic upstart race who believes in the greater food but only trusts those who are under their absolute control".

Steps:
- new race, with an ally ( kroot ), see a bright future since they don't know better.
- new race, with 2 allies ( vespids, kroot ), still caught in their own dogma but first elements leave ( Farsight ).
- naive race, just growing up, running into opposition but cannot identify who to evade ( meet&greet incidents ).
> not contributing to combined efforts against different galaxy wide threats may isolate the Tau empire and those who know the darkness of the 40k verse wouldn't bet on Tau's survival. The incoming Nids, rise of Necrons and common daily threats of greenskin and chaos point to more open conflict to come.
=> this eternal war setup does not need any Good guys / bad guys. Just participants in a struggle nobody ever wins....

I looked through my codex. It's not in there. The closeness thing I found to the join or die idea is a line that says "some aliens had little alternative then to join". I can see someone jumping to the idea that these races where brought in at the muzzle of a pulse rifle, but it dosen't say that. It says they had little alternative. That can mean a lot of things.

**Corporal_Reznov**

Well I seem to have created a heated discussion here haven't I, along with some posters who seem to be trying to troll me and everyone else via copying, to me they are fail.

I have to say my peace on the whole Tau issue. I don't hate the Tau, I have even played 40k games as Tau using a friends miniatures. I even agree that the Tau are better than the Imperium or Eldar. But I also believe that they are not good guys, just a lesser evil who are 2 inches shorter on the measurement scale in comparison to Eldar or Imperium. The Tau want to conquer the galaxy, I have already posted how when they ran into the Imperium they wanted to conquer it. The Tau are simply like the Imperium or Eldar when those races where young; another wave of imperialists. They believe that they are better than everyone, their society is better than everyone and all should join them or be brought to heel.

As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war.

So it is selfish for a race to govern themselves and live their life the way they want to and not be subject to the Tau. How benevolent! *sarcasm*

Again the Tau are not alone in this, everyone is like this in 40k.

Another thing I don't care for about the Tau is their arrogance, they think the know everything and ignore all the warnings everyone tells them. Both Eldar and Imperium have suffered for their arrogance but the Tau have yet to suffer anything substantial and truly painful. Its like they have WardsUltramarine plot-armor protecting them and it pisses me off.

As for the Tau not ever committing xenocide, how naive you people are, the Tau are going to have commit xenocide if they ever hope to get anywhere in the end. If anyone has read the Dark Heresy: Creatures Anathema book. Their is a race called Simulcara or something like that. They are belligerent and they are very good infiltrators. They could conceivably eat a Tau and infiltrate the Tau empire all the way to Ethereal. Their are tons of races in 40k that have to be dealt with in one way-Exterminatus. If the Tau don't exterminate them they will fall like all other upstart empires. If the Tau exterminate them, they become hypocrites and are nothing but an alien version of the Imperium of man.

**augustus5**

That's an impressive list of totally made up stuff that is crowned by a lack of knowledge of what socialism is.

You... have no clue what socialism is, do you? The fact that your banner says United States both scares, and annoys me, to no end. Please, and I don't want to sound too rude, but please, for the good of the country, learn about political ideologies before ever participating in politics.

I never attempted to define socialism in my post, but I did make an observation of socialist societies. Socialist societies do indeed put an emphasis on the state over the individual. Modern socialist societies are indeed some of the most harsh societies with some of the worst human rights records. Before either of you clowns try to tell me to educate myself about what socialism is perhaps you should educate yourselves first.

The Tau do seem very much to be a socialist society to me. They set aside individual goals for the goals of the state. The etherials are very much like the ruling elites in a socialist society and the rest of the castes are the citizens who work for the goals set by that elite caste. There is little or no room for individual expression and no way for the lower castes to set their own goals.

**Redscare**

augustus5 wrote:

I never attempted to define socialism in my post, but I did make an observation of socialist societies. Socialist societies do indeed put an emphasis on the state over the individual. Modern socialist societies are indeed some of the most harsh societies with some of the worst human rights records. Before either of you clowns try to tell me to educate myself about what socialism is perhaps you should educate yourselves first.

The Tau do seem very much to be a socialist society to me. They set aside individual goals for the goals of the state. The etherials are very much like the ruling elites in a socialist society and the rest of the castes are the citizens who work for the goals set by that elite caste. There is little or no room for individual expression and no way for the lower castes to set their own goals.

Mind = Blown.

What are you talking about? Socialism has nothing to do with putting an emphasis on the state over the individual, nor does it have anything to do with "ruling elites", and nor do socialist societies "set aside individual goals for the goals of the state".

Most of Western Europe employ some forms of socialist policies and many of the European states are considered to be socialist societies.
The United State's free public education system is an example of a socialist policy.
Canada's health care system is another example of a socialist policy.

Yes, the Tau set aside individual goals for the goals of the state. Yes, the Ethereals act as ruling elites. Yes, there is little to no room for individual expression. Is that socialism? No.

Now before you make yourself look even more ignorant, which is frankly terrifying to think about, please listen to the "clowns" telling you that socialism has nothing to do with a fascist, totalitarian state. You live in the US, so here are some pointers.

-Take advantage of America's free public education system (which lasts from Kindergarten to the 12th grade).
-Go to high school and graduate (this is free and typically lasts 4 years, and is also the place where you first learn this stuff).
-Read a few books about social-political ideologies (this will probably require some work in colleges, which are these places you go to, to receive higher education).

**Sir Pseudonymous**

augustus5 wrote:
That's an impressive list of totally made up stuff that is crowned by a lack of knowledge of what socialism is.

You... have no clue what socialism is, do you? The fact that your banner says United States both scares, and annoys me, to no end. Please, and I don't want to sound too rude, but please, for the good of the country, learn about political ideologies before ever participating in politics.

I never attempted to define socialism in my post, but I did make an observation of socialist societies. Socialist societies do indeed put an emphasis on the state over the individual. Modern socialist societies are indeed some of the most harsh societies with some of the worst human rights records. Before either of you clowns try to tell me to educate myself about what socialism is perhaps you should educate yourselves first.

The Tau do seem very much to be a socialist society to me. They set aside individual goals for the goals of the state. The etherials are very much like the ruling elites in a socialist society and the rest of the castes are the citizens who work for the goals set by that elite caste. There is little or no room for individual expression and no way for the lower castes to set their own goals.

Under the modern meaning of the word, the only heavily socialist countries in the world are those with the highest standards of living and the most individual freedom (most of Northern Europe). You're looking at "communist" (in the modern parlance) countries, with "communist" being a catchall term for a random assortment of often diametrically opposed ideologies. Not that either term has all that much meaning; the pro-business, anti-caring-for-their-own-people Nazis called themselves "socialists", while blaming anything and everything that went wrong on "communist" bogeymen; the Soviets turned Marx's Anarchist philosophy into a totalitarian cult of personality that committed the same abuses that Marx decried the victorian industrial capitalists for doing, while focusing on industry and technology; the Chinese under Mao rejected industry and technology, opting for peasant worship and idolizing gross incompetence for unfathomably stupid reasons; Pol-Pot interpreted the humanitarian ideals of Marxism as "MAIM KILL BURN, MAIM KILL BURN".

The Tau are a biological caste system ordered by pheremones. They're like a bee hive, if bees were individually sapient. There's even less on how their economy works than on how the Imperium's economy does (the answer to that: it varies from planet to planet, because the Imperium doesn't care about local politics so long as it doesn't involve witches, xenos, or tax evasion; mutants are occasionally tolerated), so it could be anything from socialist to capitalist to barter to "interpretive dance accepted as currency".

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Xarian wrote:
augustus5 wrote:I would guess that the Eldar, as they are now, after the Fall, are the closest thing you might be able to compare as "good guys." The Eldar realize they are a doomed race and expend the last of their efforts trying to keep the galaxy from falling under the control of Chaos. Although they are doomed, Eldar society would probably be the best society to live in in my opinion.

The Eldar, as a whole, are so incredibly weird that I'm not really sure what to think of them.

Every Eldar feels the call to war at some point. Every Eldar eventually feels a state of ennui unless they are hardcore adherents to the Paths, and with their enhanced emotional and cognitive abilities, they feel it much stronger than any other race. They have to try very hard not to fall into depravity.

From the inside of the Eldar society, the Eldar most assuredly are the "good guys". Eldar from different craftworlds tend to support each other much more than the other races (except, perhaps, for mainstream Tau). They all fight for the salvation of the Eldar race, even Alaitoc, who quite a few of its own citizens consider a huge pain in the ass to live on.

From the outside, however, the Eldar are neutral and capricious at best, and xenophobic and genocidal at worst. They don't want to help or kill humans, for example; humans are simply not important at all. An analogy would be asking your average person today how they feel about goldfish. For most Eldar, killing a human would elicit about as much emotion as a human stepping on an earthworm. If you you come home one day and find earthworms all over your living room floor, you try to take them outside and dump them in the yard - if they don't want to leave, you squish them all; pretty much exactly how the more magnanimous Eldar treat humans living on Maiden worlds.

You mean Craftworlders. The Eldar are split up into four vastly different factions: the Exodites, ascetic luddites living in a self imposed stone age; the Craftworlders, angsty ascetics trying desperately to follow a code of behavior that's diametrically opposed to their instincts, and slowly dying off because of that conflict; Harlequins, a pan-eldar priest caste belonging to the Laughing God; and the Dark Eldar, the only ones that embrace the sadistic hedonism that the Eldar naturally fell into in their pre-fall post-labor society, and, notably, the only ones actively thriving and safe. What you described are the Craftworlders; Exodites being cave-eldar unaware of the world outside their tribes; Harlequins being obsessed with fighting chaos to the point of regularly working with the Imperial Inquisition; and Dark Eldar being high as a kite on space coke, while laughing and attempting to discover just how many organs you can remove from a human before it gets boring.

**Corporal_Reznov**

augustus5. Redscare and Sir Pseudonymous are completely right. I think you are confusing socialism with communism, which has unfortunately become a "catch-all" term for dictatorships and diametrically opposed ideologies. True communism is supposed to be about the people-at least that's what people tell me, unfortunately humans suck at not being power hungry which turns a rather nice but unrealistic ideology into a totalitarian society.

The Tau are not communist. They are in truth a weird mix of fascism(putting an emphasis on the state over the individual) and theocracy(everyone reveres the ethereal and they are the ruling elite) mixed with councils. Since they have "Reeducation centers" for people who don't like the greater good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry I have one last thing to say before I pretty much consider this thread closed. Despite all I have said against the Tau I still consider them to be somewhat more sympathetic in how they regard troop and well everything than other 40k factions. That still however doesn't change what I have said about the Tau in them being a lesser evil and another wave of imperialists. filled to the brim with arrogance that has no basis in fact unlike the Imperium and Eldar who have reasons to be arrogant.

Their I have said my peace. I will no longer be responding to posts on this thread unless someone says something absurd.

Anyway, peace out to everyone who has participated in this thread

**DeviantApostle**

Personally, I think the Tau come closest to an Orwellian Oligarchy. Everyone in the Empire technically serves the Ethereal Caste, through their catch phrase 'For the Greater Good'.

It has a similar siren call that communism's basic principles do: working for the betterment of all sentient life. In the end, though, you're still working for The Man. For the Greater Good not only appeals to people on a basic level, it appeals to our modern transhumanist sensibilities as well, since most of us are in some way interested in sci-fi and as a group we more xenophilic than we are xenophobic, unlike the Imperium.

To me, the Tau Empire has a very 1984/Animal Farm vibe. The Ethereals control the Empire through publicity and diplomacy but in the end, serving the Greater Good is serving the Ethereals.

Does this make them worse than the High Lords of Terra? No. But they're not happy-sparkle-good either. Is any government or system of society really good though? Not yet. Likely not until technology allows us to compensate for our base needs.

On the other hand, they're also neive enough that they give other factions a puppy to kick to show how bad they are, which really paid off in the DE book, which is a great way to show why the Imperium operates the way it does without the influence of the God-Emperor.

**AndrewC**

DeviantApostle wrote:The Ethereals control the Empire through publicity and diplomacy but in the end, serving the Greater Good is serving the Ethereals.

Here's a question for you, is there anything out there that would suggest that the greater good is a con?

By that I mean is there anything which shows that the 'greater good' doesn't actually work.

Cheers

Andrew

**DeviantApostle**

AndrewC wrote:Here's a question for you, is there anything out there that would suggest that the greater good is a con?

By that I mean is there anything which shows that the 'greater good' doesn't actually work.

No but there's nothing to say that it does work either. Even if it does work, it necessarily sacrifices the needs of the individual for the needs of many which makes me want to puke. It's the old Swordfish question: could you kill a little girl with cancer if the result was that nobody would ever die of cancer again? Great for everyone else, sucks if you're the little girl that has to die.

We get discussions like this because humanity can be broadly divided into two groups: those who thrive in structured, ordered, environments and those who value their freedom. Because of cultural programming we often mistake Order for Good and Chaos for Evil. Democracy isn't perfect but it's likely the best political ideal that we have yet to come across because it has the greatest chance for all views to be represented. The Tau Empire is not a democracy. Unless you are an Ethereal Caste, you will not be making the big decisions that will affect the Empire's development. The Ethereals have yet to prove that they will sacrifice themselves for the Greater Good.

The real question, I think, isn't so much one of good or evil, it's whether or not the observer believes that a rigid caste society with clear delineations of responsibility is Good. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. I personally abhore the idea of such a society which is why I don't and will never play Tau. There is no room for the needs of the individual in such a machine of government. When one's only choice is obedience, sentience ceases and you become a machine, much like the mindless Tyranid drone or the soulless Necron.

**Corporal_Reznov**

DeviantApostle wrote:
AndrewC wrote:Here's a question for you, is there anything out there that would suggest that the greater good is a con?

By that I mean is there anything which shows that the 'greater good' doesn't actually work.

No but there's nothing to say that it does work either. Even if it does work, it necessarily sacrifices the needs of the individual for the needs of many which makes me want to puke. It's the old Swordfish question: could you kill a little girl with cancer if the result was that nobody would ever die of cancer again? Great for everyone else, sucks if you're the little girl that has to die.

We get discussions like this because humanity can be broadly divided into two groups: those who thrive in structured, ordered, environments and those who value their freedom. Because of cultural programming we often mistake Order for Good and Chaos for Evil. Democracy isn't perfect but it's likely the best political ideal that we have yet to come across because it has the greatest chance for all views to be represented. The Tau Empire is not a democracy. Unless you are an Ethereal Caste, you will not be making the big decisions that will affect the Empire's development. The Ethereals have yet to prove that they will sacrifice themselves for the Greater Good.

The real question, I think, isn't so much one of good or evil, it's whether or not the observer believes that a rigid caste society with clear delineations of responsibility is Good. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. I personally abhore the idea of such a society which is why I don't and will never play Tau. There is no room for the needs of the individual in such a machine of government. When one's only choice is obedience, sentience ceases and you become a machine, much like the mindless Tyranid drone or the soulless Necron.

I can't believe I have to come here again. DeviantApostle, the Imperium of man follow a similar policy to the Tau empire except its for the good of humanity. They are willing to sacrifice millions of humans if it means humanity is safe. Just like the Ethereals will sacrifice the lives of the Tau, Kroot and Vespid so that they can rule the galaxy. Their is no freedom in 40k; the ones who seem to have freedom similar to what a human wants are Chaos, however if all of humanity falls to Chaos it will lead to humanity's self-destruction.

The Greater good is something that's already being practiced by the Imperium and Eldar except its for their greater good and bad for everyone else. The greater good of the Tau is essentially the greater good of the tau over everyone else. Along with the fact that as I have already posted their are many races in the galaxy not interested in the greater good or serving someone else. The only way to deal with them is xenocide. That's one of the greatest realism's of the 40k universe is that genocide is very much need to be committed in 40k otherwise your enemy will return and be deadlier than ever before. Look at what happened between the Old Ones and the Necrontyr; if the Old Ones had simply xenocided the Necrontyr at the end of the war, the C'tan would not have been given bodies, the warp would have remained the happy place it used to be, Orks and Eldar would never have been created etc.

How many lives could have been saved? How much suffering could have been avoided

**Kroothawk**

Corporal_Reznov wrote:The Greater good is something that's already being practiced by the Imperium and Eldar except its for their greater good and bad for everyone else. The greater good of the Tau is essentially the greater good of the tau over everyone else. Along with the fact that as I have already posted their are many races in the galaxy not interested in the greater good or serving someone else. The only way to deal with them is xenocide. That's one of the greatest realism's of the 40k universe is that genocide is very much need to be committed in 40k otherwise your enemy will return and be deadlier than ever before. Look at what happened between the Old Ones and the Necrontyr; if the Old Ones had simply xenocided the Necrontyr at the end of the war, the C'tan would not have been given bodies, the warp would have remained the happy place it used to be, Orks and Eldar would never have been created etc.

How many lives could have been saved? How much suffering could have been avoided

For the Love of God, please read some official background text on Tau, any official background text on Tau, before you make up stuff like that.
Which part of "without subjgating other races" is unclear?
There are only 2 massacres by Tau reported, one by Farsight who was immediately expelled from the Empire and one by his pupil Brightsword, who was sacked immediately after that, tried to defect to the Farsight enclave but was caught and killed by Shadowsun (with his last words "For Farsight!").
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Commander_Brightsword

And because people seem to be unaware: The "Greater Good" is a philosophy that working together is better than killing each other, therefore the extensive use of Xeno allies and Xeno technology. Noone enslaves the Demiurg nor the Kroot, both are famous for doing what they want and not being stopped by Tau. The "Greater Good", like most things in Tau background, is inspired by East Asian societies that have less focus on individual freedom and more focus on the common welfare. As the example Japan shows, this is compatible with democratic structures (they even have a God-like ruler, the Tenno, certainly a major inspiration for ethereals)

**Guitardian**

AndrewC wrote:
DeviantApostle wrote:The Ethereals control the Empire through publicity and diplomacy but in the end, serving the Greater Good is serving the Ethereals.

Here's a question for you, is there anything out there that would suggest that the greater good is a con?

By that I mean is there anything which shows that the 'greater good' doesn't actually work.

Cheers

Andrew

I am thinking that it is a term coined by a member of the elite caste highest on the social structure. Funny how propeganda works like that in these supposedly socialist cultures where all the pee-on class are expected to be happy with their hard working place on the ladder. Or maybe the Ethereals aren't actually a ruling class at all, right? Maybe they exist only to serve (and wear shiney jewels and get carted around on space-pope litters)

**htj**

I would be interested to see how many people who consider the Tau to be bad guys a) are Imperial players, and/or b) got into the hobby through DoW.

I'm a long time Imperialist, and when first Tau came on the scene I detest them because, for me, they messed with the Gothic atmosphere I so loved. Time is a healer, though, and now they seem like an integral part of the universe. I still hate them, though, but in character because they are xenos scum. Do I have a problem with them being 'good guys' compared to the Imperium? No, of course not. Anyone who thinks that the Imperium are the good guys is not reading their fluff. Honestly, how grimdark to GW have to make it so that people will pick up on what an awful place to live the Imperium is? Let the Tau be the starry eyed, naive and optomistic good guys. I wanna play as the space fascists.

**Corporal_Reznov**

Kroothawk wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:The Greater good is something that's already being practiced by the Imperium and Eldar except its for their greater good and bad for everyone else. The greater good of the Tau is essentially the greater good of the tau over everyone else. Along with the fact that as I have already posted their are many races in the galaxy not interested in the greater good or serving someone else. The only way to deal with them is xenocide. That's one of the greatest realism's of the 40k universe is that genocide is very much need to be committed in 40k otherwise your enemy will return and be deadlier than ever before. Look at what happened between the Old Ones and the Necrontyr; if the Old Ones had simply xenocided the Necrontyr at the end of the war, the C'tan would not have been given bodies, the warp would have remained the happy place it used to be, Orks and Eldar would never have been created etc.

How many lives could have been saved? How much suffering could have been avoided

For the Love of God, please read some official background text on Tau, any official background text on Tau, before you make up stuff like that.
Which part of "without subjgating other races" is unclear?
There are only 2 massacres by Tau reported, one by Farsight who was immediately expelled from the Empire and one by his pupil Brightsword, who was sacked immediately after that, tried to defect to the Farsight enclave but was caught and killed by Shadowsun (with his last words "For Farsight!").
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Commander_Brightsword

And because people seem to be unaware: The "Greater Good" is a philosophy that working together is better than killing each other, therefore the extensive use of Xeno allies and Xeno technology. Noone enslaves the Demiurg nor the Kroot, both are famous for doing what they want and not being stopped by Tau. The "Greater Good", like most things in Tau background, is inspired by East Asian societies that have less focus on individual freedom and more focus on the common welfare. As the example Japan shows, this is compatible with democratic structures (they even have a God-like ruler, the Tenno, certainly a major inspiration for ethereals)

That is old fluff that has been contradicted by other sources. do you honestly think the Tau can bring the "Greater Good" to all species in the galaxy and those species will simply surrender to Tau leadership. Their are races in 40k aside from Orks who don't care about happiness or peace or just like ruling themselves. The Tau will have to conquer these races in order to get them as part of the Tau empire which is essentially "Subjugation" whether you like it or not. What you think that the races of the galaxy will go "Oh look, our benevolent Tau saviors. Let us bow before the greater good". Don't be wankish and Mary sueish for Tau. Their is also the part that the Tau are not really democratic which makes sense as a democracy over a large amount of world in 40k almost never works. As for the post that use quoted I wasn't taking about the Tau. I was talking about the lack of freedom in 40k and about how we modern and softhearted humans continuously decry Xenocide in 40k despite everyone doing it and how if the Old Ones had the balls to Xenocide the Necrontyr.

Do you get it? If the Old Ones had exterminated the Necrontyr, something the Imperium of man or Eldar would do in a heartbeat,when they had the chance the 40k galaxy would not be the hellhole it is today?

**htj**

Corporal_Reznov wrote:As for the post that use quoted I wasn't taking about the Tau. I was talking about the lack of freedom in 40k and about how we modern and softhearted humans continuously decry Xenocide in 40k despite everyone doing it and how if the Old Ones had the balls to Xenocide the Necrontyr.

And then:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Do you get it? If the Old Ones had exterminated the Necrontyr, something the Imperium of man or Eldar would do in a heartbeat,when they had the chance the 40k galaxy would not be the hellhole it is today?

What? I certainly don't get it. How would this prevent the catacylsmic effect humans had on the warp, fuelling the Chaos Gods beyond precedent? How would this prevent the Tyranids from coming?