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The Imperium are not good guys I agree, neither are the Eldar. Both those races though have reasons for why they are the way they are. The Imperium is trying to prevent the human race from being exterminated while having humans rule the galaxy. They cannot afford the daemons to exist in the material realm who are an actual threat, before Matt ward came on the scene, to the existence of the human race in 40k. Eldar are xenophoic along the veins that they believe are the superior species and that the galaxy belongs to them. They long for the return of the Eldar empire while kiiling everyone. This simply casts them in shades of gray.

The Tau are not "good guys", they are just a lesser evil just like the Imperium and Eldar when compared to the other 40k races and even lesser or more accurately nicer in comparison to Imperium and Eldar. I have never said Tau are evil, they are simply another wave of imperialist who are extremely naive. Look though the thread especially my posts and you will see large paragraphs that state the Tau want to conquer the galaxy either through diplomacy or military conquest, doesn't matter they still want to conquer the galaxy.

I have been playing the Warhammer 40k hobby before the release of the Dawn of war games.

Another thing read the fluff on psykers, what the Imperium does to them while unfortunate is for "the greater good" and for their own good; seeing as many people are complaining about the lot of psykers in the Imperium calling it tyranny. Human psykers are screwed in 40k no matter what especially the most powerful Alpha-plus graded ones seeing as most of them are either insane or possessed

OK, that's a fair point. Would you say that the Tau are possibly the lesser of all evils, though?

I'm still not sold on the Necrontyr dead = nice galaxy thing though.

htj wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:As for the post that use quoted I wasn't taking about the Tau. I was talking about the lack of freedom in 40k and about how we modern and softhearted humans continuously decry Xenocide in 40k despite everyone doing it and how if the Old Ones had the balls to Xenocide the Necrontyr.

And then:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Do you get it? If the Old Ones had exterminated the Necrontyr, something the Imperium of man or Eldar would do in a heartbeat,when they had the chance the 40k galaxy would not be the hellhole it is today?

What? I certainly don't get it. How would this prevent the catacylsmic effect humans had on the warp, fuelling the Chaos Gods beyond precedent? How would this prevent the Tyranids from coming?

The warp was calm before the war between the Necrons and the Old Ones. When the Old Ones started creating more and more psyker races to battle the Necrons and c'tan. The warp turned nasty leading to Enslavers who are still a threat in 40k(see 40k rpg) and I have heard it said that the chaos gods were actually created during this time but were not actually born until the medieval ages who were helped by both humans and aliens. Old Ones created Eldar who gave birth to Slaanesh whose gestation caused the age of strife(downfall of human civilization).The Eye of terror wouldn't exist.They also created Orks who have been warring with themselves and everyone else in the galaxy for millions of years. How many races do you think the Orks have genocided by accident in their quest for Waaaaagh?

Necrons and C'tan wouldn't exist to threaten the lives of all sentient species of the galaxy, well the C'tan would still exist but as harmless star eaters. Finally, without Eldar fuc$ing up the warp there wouldn't be a need for the Astrominicon.

Read 40k wikis or ask the others if there terms in my post you don't understand as I'm not going to describe everything.

There's no need to be patronising Reznov, it detracts from your argument, doesn't make it stronger. I'm not asking you to explain the fluff, but your interpretation of it.

Isn't it the case that those races were created by the old ones in their attempt to wipe out the Necrons? If they could have done it without them, why did they make them at all?

I'm sorry if I seem to be patronizing you.

Unless the fluff has changed the Old Ones fought two wars with the Necrons. First with the Necrons in their organic form as the Necrontyr, the Necrontyr lost and were driven back to their homeworld. The Old ones, they seem to be rational and logical people, let the Necrontyr live and that was their mistake. The Necrontyr like Germany under Adolf Hitler rose up once more as Necrons and slaves of the C'tan. They once more waged war on the Old ones. To combat these terrible foes, the Old Ones created new warrior races to battle for them, including the Eldar, the Rashan, the K'nib and the Krork, who may be the ancestors of the Orks. Knowing that the C'tan were vulnerable to psychic energies, the Old Ones designed their warrior species to be psychically linked to the Immaterium. Unfortunately, the raw emotions and collective unconscious beliefs of these new races altered the psychically-active Immaterium, creating their Gods and the daemons of Chaos. The introduction of these warlike and psychic races into the galaxy had the side effect of warping the Immaterium - the war, pain, suffering and destruction of the galaxy unleashed during the conflict was reflected in the Immaterium, literally changing its nature into that of the current chaotic and intrinsically hostile psychic dimension called the Warp. The innocuous entities which had naturally existed in the Immaterium were twisted into voracious and hostile predators.

There is no bad or good guys in the 40k universe, everyone wants to conquer all the other races for "peace"....this is how it is there is no peace to when it comes to conquering, even after they have done it...and that's saying IF they did it....but the foundation of there peace...is from....war.....there is no peace my brotha

Good god man, don't mention Hitler! Godwin's law! Godwin's law!

That's a sound theory, certainly, but what if the Old Ones had wiped out the Necrontyr and had remained undisputed masters of the galaxy? It seems unlikely that the peace would have lasted forever. I can see two possibly outcomes in this alternate timeline that would mess the whole thing up again.

First, the Old Ones would become decadent and debased. Wiping out an entire race because you think they might be a potential threat bears all the hallmark of a race spilling towards a bad place. Such powerful psykers descending into decadence would make the birth of Slaanesh look like a tea party.

Second, the Tyranids arrive. These monstrous, unstoppable eating machines would easily prove as great a threat as the Necrons. What would prevent the Old Ones from doing the same as they did in canon continuity to combat the Tyranids? And if they failed, well, there'd be peace of sorts. If you're a Tyranid.

Back towards the Tau are good guys thing and the point of the thread. I think people using 'good guys' to describe the Tau is valid only in that they are probably the least overtly evil race. It takes the 40K universe to make imperialism seem like a good thing. The British Empire was built 'for the greater good.' Those who disbelieve me should look up the concept of 'the white man's burden.'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rogueyopants wrote:There is no bad or good guys in the 40k universe, everyone wants to conquer all the other races for "peace"....this is how it is there is no peace to when it comes to conquering, even after they have done it...and that's saying IF they did it....but the foundation of there peace...is from....war.....there is no peace my brotha

I remember reading somewhere that in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium there is only... something something.

Damn, now how did that end?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:That is old fluff that has been contradicted by other sources.

Okay. I quoted the explicit intent of the designers and the Battlefield Gothic Rulebook contradicting your view.
Now it is your time to quote the official GW sources with genocides, enslavements, subjugation and all the other evil-doings that put them on one level with the Imperium. Just desperately WANTING them to be evil is not enough.

Kroothawk wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:That is old fluff that has been contradicted by other sources.

Okay. I quoted the explicit intent of the designers and the Battlefield Gothic Rulebook contradicting your view.
Now it is your time to quote the official GW sources with genocides, enslavements, subjugation and all the other evil-doings that put them on one level with the Imperium. Just desperately WANTING them to be evil is not enough.

Well, some consider the suppression of freedoms as evil as any of those that which you have stated. I don't necessarily agree, but I can see their point. No matter what the Tau does or does not do, it is evident they will not tolerate anyone contradicting their beliefs in the Greater Good.

Redscare wrote:Well, some consider the suppression of freedoms as evil as any of those that which you have stated. I don't necessarily agree, but I can see their point. No matter what the Tau does or does not do, it is evident they will not tolerate anyone contradicting their beliefs in the Greater Good.

So can you quote any official source for your supposed suppression of freedom (other than guarding soldiers that wanted to kill Tau that is)? Or do you just know a person who made this up?
Also it is evident from the official Battlefleet Gothic text that Tau have peaceful relationships to planets not joining the "Greater Good", so it is not at all evident that the contrary is true. Can you quote a source? No commonwealth of planets can accept a new member that is opposed to peacefully working together and is just interested in its own advantage at all costs. So there must be rules for joining the Tau Empire. But as long as Demiurg and Kroot are part of it, rules can't be that restrictive.

Kroothawk wrote:

Redscare wrote:Well, some consider the suppression of freedoms as evil as any of those that which you have stated. I don't necessarily agree, but I can see their point. No matter what the Tau does or does not do, it is evident they will not tolerate anyone contradicting their beliefs in the Greater Good.

So can you quote any official source for your supposed suppression of freedom (other than guarding soldiers that wanted to kill Tau that is)? Or do you just know a person who made this up?
Also it is evident from the official Battlefleet Gothic text that Tau have peaceful relationships to planets not joining the "Greater Good", so it is not at all evident that the contrary is true. Can you quote a source? No commonwealth of planets can accept a new member that is opposed to peacefully working together and is just interested in its own advantage at all costs. So there must be rules for joining the Tau Empire. But as long as Demiurg and Kroot are part of it, rules can't be that restrictive.

I certainly can.

Tau Empire Codex, regarding treatment of other species.

"Perhaps unsurprisingly, few races are willing to surrender unreservedly, and so the Fire caste has gone to war on numerous occasions." pg10
"Those worlds that will not willingly join the empire are dragged to the negotiating table under threat of annihilation." pg10
"Those that remain openly defiant face obliteration under the orbital guns of he Air caste fleet." pg 10

Tau Empire Codex, regarding treatment of their own people.

"Tau are born into their caste and breeding between the castes is forbidden by the Ethereals." pg8
The exile of the prominent Commander Farsight, after he turns his back on the "Greater Good". pg42, 44, 46

Tau Empire Codex, regarding known speculations about the Tau and their Etherals.

"It has been whispered that this acceptance [by the Vespids] is linked to the fact that all of the race's leaders wear the interface helmets given to them by the Tau, but no evidence of this claim has proved forthcoming." pg16


There is plenty of evidence in the main source book that states , not suggests, the Tau empire is not a peace loving and benevolent society. The Tau admittedly do not engage in atrocities to the same extent as the Imperium, but I do not know how people can convince themselves their hands are clean in any respects.

Nice to see Kroothawks request for sources has been granted. Would you mind actually telling us your views of the Tau within context of the thread Kroothawk?

*Raises shield against Tau fanboys.*

I am going to give replies to all posters who have debated with me in this thread recently, all in one post. Anyway, let’s begin:

To htj:

Here are some links to help you understand what happened between the Old ones and Necrontyr-

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Ones

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_Ones

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Necron

The race remembered now only as the "Old Ones" had developed terrestrially into a sentient species like most of the galaxy's other commonplace biological species. The Old Ones possessed a slow, cold-blooded wisdom. Their science was advanced to such a point that it was indistinguishable from sorcery. Their understanding of the universe allowed them to exploit the alternate universes such as the Warp and engage in psychic engineering.

Finding themselves to be virtually alone in the galaxy, they took it upon themselves to make worlds more favourable to support life, and they seeded other worlds with new lifeforms. They visited many worlds, and using primitive species as a stock, they created new and sentient species, which they continued to nurture. Many of the habitable and inhabited worlds in existence were terraformed from often barren worlds which were developed and seeded with life by the Old Ones

They for the most part are the first sentient race in the galaxy thus the galaxy could be said to belong to them by default.

The Astronomican's potent psychic beacon, unbeknownst to the Imperium's Adepts, is what is drawing the Tyranid Hive Fleets to threaten the Milky Way Galaxy and all of the Imperium of Man. It is also drawing them, inexorably and irresistibly, towards Terra itself.

So without the Astronomican existing, the Tyranids would pretty much ignore the galaxy. And the Old ones existed millions of years before humans even existed. So even if the nids invaded the milky way I believe that the Old ones would already be extinct by that point or ascend into a higher plain or whatever so it’s not their problem. The Astronomican exists because the warp has become even nastier than it was long ago during the war between old ones and necron. The warp was made worse by the Eldar because of their fall.

As for peace not lasting forever of course it wouldn't last forever. What, you think the Tau can bring peace to the galaxy that would last forever. True Peace or utopia leads to complacency and boredom which leads to decadence which leads to self-destruction unless it is averted somehow by deus ex machina. Look at the Eldar they had a utopia with their empire, for them at least, where they could do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted and not be worried about the rest of the universe or the facts of life. They were rulers of the galaxy, millions of years and unchallenged ones at that. They had what was basically their version of robots do everything for them like protecting their empire from outsiders etc. And their empire fell because of decadence and hedonism that was created because of too much peace, security and freedom and no enemies to fight.

Look at the star wars expanded universe; it took years of bloodshed to establish the republic after the star wars movies and in the end it was so weak, corrupt, hopelessly bureaucratic and spineless that it didn’t even survive a century and collapsed due to invasion before an new democratic alliance was born that after a century and a half fell to another empire. This is pretty common in fiction and real life that as a culture enters its twilight years having reached a technology level it can’t surpass or just long ages of prosperity and if it has no enemies, made worse if it is a democracy, will eventually collapse as their people leave in mass or rebel for whatever idiotic reasons they can think up- this is common for humans. A civ that tries to fight this can only win if they become a cruel and totalitarian regime which is only delaying the inevitable.

This can be prevented if the race ascends to a higher plain or just goes extinct.

As for the Old Ones exterminating the Necrontyr, who knows maybe you’re right or maybe you’re absolutely wrong. Take Doctor Who for example, if the Doctor had genocided the Daleks when he had the chance their wouldn’t have been a Time war and how about when the Daleks threatened the survival of the universe and then all of creation. All could have been avoided. Also, the Necrontyr were already insane as they started a war of extermination against all sentient beings because they were jealous, envious and full of resentment for the Old Ones who really did nothing to them as the war wasn’t about conquest but extermination at least for the Necrontyr- they weren’t a potential threat but a real threat that had been beaten but could rise again.

40k makes xenocide not a bad thing as everyone does it along with the fact that it gets rid of races who , true to the 40k setting, really are plotting against you. Like their called the Yu’vath who used to live in the Calixis sector before they got exterminated by the Imperium. You want to know how they lived- they had an empire that enslaved human worlds for the purposes of using humans as slaves and daemon fodder for the Yu’vaths sorceries which is basically what their technology is built on. They had something similar to the Orks shokk attack gun but for anti-ship work using projectiles.

To KrootHawk, Redscare along with everyone else:

Thank you Redscare, for providing evidence to KrootHawk, as I was a bit busy. To KrootHawk and all others who say Tau are “pure good” I have more evidence for you.

-Maskin Quiore, Gue’la Water Caste Liaison. Source: Deathwatch Core Rulebook pg 352. wrote:“What need you understand but the Greater Good? What more than the Greater Good can hold any concern for you? Ask not where your husband went. Rather, rejoice that his absence benefits us all!”

This was said to a human woman presumably.

-- Source: VELK’HAN SEPT. Deathwatch Core Rulebook pg 352. wrote:“The Sept’s humans (referred to by the Tau as ‘Gue’la’) adhere not the Imperial Creed, but to the Tau ideal of the Greater Good. The Tau teach that the perfect society, one modeled after the Tau themselves, has a place for every creature; with every creature in that place, fulfilling their assigned roles without question, for the good of the Sept as a whole. Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instill an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the somewhat reluctant gue’la minds. Populations are regularly sterilized to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicize the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue’la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all."

Heres's some more

-TSUA’MALOR. Deathwatch Core Rulebook pg352. wrote:“city, Beldar, is home to the Gue’Retha is a place which the Tau decline to name, but which human malcontents call the Lacuna. This underground research facility, it is rumored, is where the Tau conduct psychological experiments on the gue’la prisoners. The results supposedly help the Tau refine their methods of social manipulation, but no one can be sure since any heard to utter such thought vanish, quite possibly into Lacuna itself”

-Source: TSUA’MALOR. Deathwatch Core Rulebook pg352. wrote:“Tsua’Malor is the capital world of the Velk’Han Sept”

-Source: The Greyhell Front. Deathwatch Core Rulebook pg 354 wrote:“own side as he is to be killed by the xenos. Life is no better for the gue’la auxiliaries, who wont to be abandoned by their Tau overlords or betrayed by Imperial intelligence officers who have worked their way into their ranks.”

typo error here, same in the book, copied it so as to be accurate word for word.

-Source: Kroot Mercenary. Rouge Trader – Into the Storm, The Explorer’s Handbook. Pg 52. wrote:“Chaos renegades or the Ork hordes. Kroot mercenaries hold no prejudices against any particular race, and care only that they are well paid for their services. Naturally, such behavior is anathema to the Tau’s philosophy of the Greater Good. Thus, the Kroot hide their mercenary activities and avoid contact with Tau forces if at all possible. In the end, strengthening the Kroot’s genetic makeup is of paramount importance, and the Koronus Expanse is an opportunity the Kroot simply cannot ignore.”

This one is to show that the Tau don’t tolerate what they perceive to be not compatible with their ideology of the “Greater Good” along with another above example shows that in some ways they are just as intolerant as the Imperium. Hell, the Imperium is less they don’t care if you become a bounty hunter or a mercenary unless you’re a mercenary against the Imperium then you’re just dead.

Second to the last one,

-Source: Aun'Va, Master of the Undying Spirit, Tau quotes Lexicanum.com. wrote:“It saddens me greatly that we must take arms against the peoples of the galaxy. By their deaths, they deny themselves the liberation that is only to be found in total surrender to the Greater Good.”

"Surrender" to the Greater Good simply means subjugation to the Tau.

[sarcasm] How benevolent! The Tau are the most democratic, peaceful, enlightened and free race in the galaxy. They simply want to extend this freedom and goodness to everyone else.[/sarcasm]

Last one,

Games Workshop
LICENSING MANAGER
Owen Rees
HEAD OF LICENSING
Paul Lyons
HEAD OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
Alan Merrett

This is on all the books of Dark Heresy, Rouge Trader and Deathwatch just so you guys can’t say that it is not part of canon.

Their is my evidence.

ps: I apologise, in advance, to any one who can't read this well due to its size. Just post saying you can't read it and I will split this one massive post into two for everyone's convenience.

Thank you.

My intention in putting forth the quotations was to lay the matter to rest- not to "one-up" someone.

However, I am stumped how a 4 page discussion on this topic was even made possible when it is so clearly stated in the Tau codex that the Tau are not at all the "good guys". Relative good? Maybe. But no where close as to being good as an absolute- I don't think the 40k universe can even allow for such an anomaly.

Hopefully, the OP can copy the quotations and edit them into the opening post and bring a resolution to this discussion.

I'm giving an apology to all Tau players for if you guys are insulted by the things I posted along with the facts like the Tau lovers and noobs, stuff like that. I was a bit drunk at the time when I posted that massive post and had just came from another forum where a Tau player had been flaming me for a few comments I made about his stupid idea and so I took my annoyance fueled by alcohol to taunting you guys. So again I'm sorry.

Other than that, the evidence is here so you guys are free to discuss the implications of it or not

Thanks for reading.

ps: I will be editing my previous post to get rid of the taunts.

It's starting to look like the tau are more or less evil depending on where you look. I get the feeling that their canon has morphed overtime to be more evil/oppressive.

There is something I don't quite get. Why would the tau sterilize people? I guess the reason is to keep population down, but that dosen't make a of sense to me. They can always just move people around, or slow down expansion till they can manage the planets they take (Maybe rule by proxy for awhile). Not to mention children would be more loyal to the tau then the adults would. Also how do they do it? I kind of picture them flying over people dumping chemicals from a old crop duster plain.

Then I also makes me wonder why the tau are so involved in the human worlds they have, but they don't seem as involved in the Kroot. I kind of base that on the kroot still being able to act as mercenaries outside of the empire and that the kroot don't have much tau weaponry. It just seems odd.

Oh and kind of a shout out to all politics talk. The tau are a caste based monarchy, and that leads me to another question. Do kroot, vesipn or human leaders have a role in tau politics like the fire caste generals or the air case admirals. What i am kind of wondering is do they gain rank or if they are in a different system. Something like that?

Just posting the fact that I have edited my massive post with a short sentence. I know I'm being ridiculous and I appologise for it. Anyway its a continuiation of the "Look at the Eldar they had a utopia with their empire, for them at least, where they could do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted and not be worried about the rest of the universe or the facts of life." part. Its basically "And their empire fell because of decadence and hedonism that was created because of too much peace, security and freedom and no enemies to fight."

Other than the small sentence, no other change were made.

This is the last update I swear.

Nerivant wrote:Sterilization, reeducation camps... they're not the saints of the galaxy.

as opposed to mass genocide at first sight? Yeah. They aren't saints but they are the saints of the 40k universe.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Nerivant wrote:Sterilization, reeducation camps... they're not the saints of the galaxy.

as opposed to mass genocide at first sight? Yeah. They aren't saints but they are the saints of the 40k universe.

Exactly.

On a scale of "Free Love" to "Grimdark," they're hovering somewhere around the USSR under Stalin.

Which is pretty good considering the par for this course.

Nerivant wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Nerivant wrote:Sterilization, reeducation camps... they're not the saints of the galaxy.

as opposed to mass genocide at first sight? Yeah. They aren't saints but they are the saints of the 40k universe.

Exactly.

On a scale of "Free Love" to "Grimdark," they're hovering somewhere around the USSR under Stalin.

Which is pretty good considering the par for this course.

exactly and when you put them next to the imperium, chaos, and the like, they look like mother theresa by comparison.

Yes, the Tau do look rather like monsters, sophisticated monsters, but still monsters who care nothing about the non-tau species.

The Kroot don't entirely trust the Tau for a good reason.

Guys I know this may seem petulant and childish but I spent money at internet cafes in order to create that post and going through all of the Warhammer 40k rpg books to get the quotes, I have more ready quotes if you want them, and yet no one has yet posted any discussion about what I have posted. It makes me a bit .


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nomotog wrote:It's starting to look like the tau are more or less evil depending on where you look. I get the feeling that their canon has morphed overtime to be more evil/oppressive.

There is something I don't quite get. Why would the tau sterilize people? I guess the reason is to keep population down, but that dosen't make a of sense to me. They can always just move people around, or slow down expansion till they can manage the planets they take (Maybe rule by proxy for awhile). Not to mention children would be more loyal to the tau then the adults would. Also how do they do it? I kind of picture them flying over people dumping chemicals from a old crop duster plain.

Then I also makes me wonder why the tau are so involved in the human worlds they have, but they don't seem as involved in the Kroot. I kind of base that on the kroot still being able to act as mercenaries outside of the empire and that the kroot don't have much tau weaponry. It just seems odd.

Oh and kind of a shout out to all politics talk. The tau are a caste based monarchy, and that leads me to another question. Do kroot, vesipn or human leaders have a role in tau politics like the fire caste generals or the air case admirals. What i am kind of wondering is do they gain rank or if they are in a different system. Something like that?

The reason for the sterilization is right their in the second quote. Its "Populations are regularly sterilized to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control." along with other lovely gems.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Guys I know this may seem petulant and childish but I spent money at internet cafes in order to create that post and going through all of the Warhammer 40k rpg books to get the quotes, I have more ready quotes if you want them, and yet no one has yet posted any discussion about what I have posted. It makes me a bit .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:It's starting to look like the tau are more or less evil depending on where you look. I get the feeling that their canon has morphed overtime to be more evil/oppressive.

There is something I don't quite get. Why would the tau sterilize people? I guess the reason is to keep population down, but that dosen't make a of sense to me. They can always just move people around, or slow down expansion till they can manage the planets they take (Maybe rule by proxy for awhile). Not to mention children would be more loyal to the tau then the adults would. Also how do they do it? I kind of picture them flying over people dumping chemicals from a old crop duster plain.

Then I also makes me wonder why the tau are so involved in the human worlds they have, but they don't seem as involved in the Kroot. I kind of base that on the kroot still being able to act as mercenaries outside of the empire and that the kroot don't have much tau weaponry. It just seems odd.

Oh and kind of a shout out to all politics talk. The tau are a caste based monarchy, and that leads me to another question. Do kroot, vesipn or human leaders have a role in tau politics like the fire caste generals or the air case admirals. What i am kind of wondering is do they gain rank or if they are in a different system. Something like that?

The reason for the sterilization is right their in the second quote. Its "Populations are regularly sterilized to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control." along with other lovely gems.

Ya I get that. I just don't think it makes sense. Like it was thrown in just to give the tau something evil to do. It feels a little lazy IMHO. It would make more sense for the tau to just not take over a world they can't control. Like I suggest they can rule by proxy through the planets Governor. Ask him to do the sterilizing and all other evil things. Then, when they have the space, they invade and "liberate" the people from their oppressive puppet. Another ,more evil option, they can take the children put them in tau "totally not brain washing schools" and make sure that they grow up with the ideas of the "Greater Good" That makes a lot more sense then sterilization.

That's one of the things I hate about GW, inconsistent fluff. If you're going to make a story, at least stick to the main tenants of the story. With GW it seems like it all depends on what the writer feels.

"Hey, Bob, we need some fluff for the next Tau codex."
"Sure, I'll just type this up."
"Bob, you realize you just completely changed the entire structure of the story?"
"Yeah, so?"
"Well, the deadline's here, there's nothing for it, let's just print it."

Reznov, not to detract from your research but all of that was pretty much from one source, one that is designed soley around an imperial perspective in a fight against "evil" aliens. Kind of hard to fight those aliens without vilifying them, right?

Deathwatch is a roleplaying game set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, where you take on the role of a member of the Adeptus Astartes - the devout, bio-engineered super-soldiers also known as Space Marines....all Deathwatch Marines must learn to put aside their differences and work together to succeed in the most extraordinary operations - whether facing the threat of total annihilation when confronted by implacable alien foes, or fighting against the foul daemon menace that crawls forth hungrily from beyond the Warp.

And in Rogue Trader, you can work with them... or play as them.

remeber this note from your friendly nieghborhood inquisitor
imperium=good
tau=bad
eldar=bad
necron=bad
chaos=bad
orks=WTF?!
seriously what are orks doing in space

I am just working through the quotes of Deathwatch, as Space Marine books are not my traditional terrain (and I want to know what I am talking about before posting).

Some first impressions:

1.) Yes, Deathwatch is licenced by GW, as are C.S.Goto books and the PC games. Alan Merrit is the IP specialist of GW, but not the background specialist. This is still a non-GW product. But I acknowledge that some unidentified parts of the book were written by Andy Hoare, author of the last Codex.

2.) Every game has its rules. In this game, Tau are the major enemies of the heroes, and the heroes are supposed to be more or less good (the evil Space Marines will be featured in the next RPG). So the setting must give the heroes something to clean up. In a PC game you have to provide a planet with all races and scenarios for all races to win or lose.

3.) Of course, all quotes are deliberately taken out of context: The first quote is by a human in Tau services, not a Tau. Makes sense as the majority of the Velk'han Sept are humans, mostly led by human leaders, although in agreement to the ideal of the Greater Good. But as stated several times, there is a dark secret in that area, some unknown alien force ""infecting humans and tau alike with madness" (p.352). So we can't blindly judge the whole Tau Empire by this potentially corrupted part of it. We have to wait for more material to shed light upon this. BTW the human adversary Ebongrave seems a mad fanatic as well, having quarantined 3 planets to be hopelessly "corrupted by Tau sympathy", so they now feature mass starvation by the quarantine.

4.) Still, the introduction of the capital Tsua'Malor starts with "Once a populous and advanced human world, it was transformed by Earth caste architects into a shining example of civilisation and enlightenment" (your quote just stopped before that for obvious reasons). They then describe the reseach and learning facilities for tau and humans. Taking prisoners is not evil per se, and the psychological experiments I know have nothing to do with torture. Social manipulation and education are not evil per se as seen by Allied "de-nazification" in post-WW2 Germany, a good, successful and necessary process. Executing opponents and sterilization are rather bad and IIRC the first explicit mention of this practice. They don't fit my image of Tau, not sure if GW wants to change background in that direction as well. But they also gave us bro-fisting Blood Angels and Necrons plus Grey Knights bathing in the blood of Sororitas to overcome the temptation of the Blood God.

5.) Concerning Guela fates: the deliberately uncomplete quote states that an Imperial Guardsman "is almost as likely to be executed by his own side as as he is killed to be killed by Xenos". We know that Gue'la are led by humans not Tau, and Tau don't interfer much with gue'la. The quote means that gue'la feel abandonned by their leaders or threatened by Imperial traitors within their ranks. This is something completely different from Tau treating them badly.

Melissia wrote:Yes, the Tau do look rather like monsters, sophisticated monsters, but still monsters who care nothing about the non-tau species.
The Kroot don't entirely trust the Tau for a good reason.

There wouldn't be a Kroot race, if the Tau hadn't fought next to them against Orks without asking for a benefit. Kroot are grateful for that. One Kroot became general in the Tau army. Kroot just have their own agenda, based on their biology. Fighting for Chaos and Orks is obviously not a good thing, but there is absolutely no hint that Tau suppress Kroot to stop that.

As said, this is just a short answer, as I am currently too busy to do more reading, but it is some kind of reply.

To agnosto and KrootHawk. The Warhammer 40k rpg books are that "RPG books" so they are written from an omniscient perspective except for a few parts here and their unless your saying that the description are from an Imperial perspective and I simply don't see it that way as the books describe things that we know but members of the Imperium don't unless of course your saying that the descriptor is the Emperor.

As for all the so called parts I left out, it wasn't intentionally because I wanted to obscure evidence or something like that, its just that the paragraphs are large and I didn't have a lot of change at the time to continue using the computers. But that's why I put in sources and pages for you guys to search for them yourself.

4.) Still, the introduction of the capital Tsua'Malor starts with "Once a populous and advanced human world, it was transformed by Earth caste architects into a shining example of civilisation and enlightenment" (your quote just stopped before that for obvious reasons). They then describe the reseach and learning facilities for tau and humans. Taking prisoners is not evil per se, and the psychological experiments I know have nothing to do with torture. Social manipulation and education are not evil per se as seen by Allied "de-nazification" in post-WW2 Germany, a good, successful and necessary process. Executing opponents and sterilization are rather bad and IIRC the first explicit mention of this practice. They don't fit my image of Tau, not sure if GW wants to change background in that direction as well. But they also gave us bro-fisting Blood Angels and Necrons plus Grey Knights bathing in the blood of Sororitas to overcome the temptation of the Blood God.

Whats the difference between this "Once a populous and advanced human world" and this "it was transformed by Earth caste architects into a shining example of civilisation and enlightenment"? Not all orwellian police states have to be shitholes that look like crap check out Deus Ex: Invisible War endings on YouTube for an example.

You are very naive like the Tau themselves are. You think that simply because the Tau fight for the Greater good and that they negotiate they will be able to rule that galaxy without killing large amount of people. I have already stated countless times about how the Tau will have to eventually commit genocide if they want to survive and truly expand as a lot of races don't give a care for one ounce of the greater good. The Tau are either two things - incredible liars who simply have good publicity and hide their evil behind closed doors or they are slowly become evil due to the nature of the galaxy.

Concerning Guela fates: the deliberately uncomplete quote states that an Imperial Guardsman "is almost as likely to be executed by his own side as as he is killed to be killed by Xenos". We know that Gue'la are led by humans not Tau, and Tau don't interfer much with gue'la. The quote means that gue'la feel abandonned by their leaders or threatened by Imperial traitors within their ranks. This is something completely different from Tau treating them badly.

Here is the quote again:

-Source: The Greyhell Front. Deathwatch Core Rulebook pg 354 wrote:“own side as he is to be killed by the xenos. Life is no better for the gue’la auxiliaries, who wont to be abandoned by their Tau overlords or betrayed by Imperial intelligence officers who have worked their way into their ranks.”

I didn't post the prequel to that as its about the Imperium and we already know how the Imperium acts so no need for more evidence. They do interfere its stated in the book, you just can't get your head around it because you love Tau. I don't love any particular army, I have played them all but my personal army are Orks. I am not biased.

As for the Tau and Kroot, the Kroot don't want the Tau to learn that their still acting as mercenaries because its against the greater good ideology of the Tau so what do they do; they hide the fact that theiyare still mercenaries which means that their is a punishment for going against what the Tau believe to be wrong. Otherwise why would the Kroot hide that fact.

-Source: Kroot Mercenary. Rouge Trader – Into the Storm, The Explorer’s Handbook. Pg 52. wrote:“Chaos renegades or the Ork hordes. Kroot mercenaries hold no prejudices against any particular race, and care only that they are well paid for their services. Naturally, such behavior is anathema to the Tau’s philosophy of the Greater Good. Thus, the Kroot hide their mercenary activities and avoid contact with Tau forces if at all possible. In the end, strengthening the Kroot’s genetic makeup is of paramount importance, and the Koronus Expanse is an opportunity the Kroot simply cannot ignore.”

I am prepared to post images with all the paragraphs from the books and paste them here if someone would be kind enough to tell me how to do that?

Unity in Fear the Alien. The races the Tau bring into the GG aren't there for the GG. Kroot are looking for a meal. As mentioned before Vespids have the helmet thingy. Tau control populations the way we control pet populations, they're just missing a Bob Barker.

So the Deathwatch books did expand on the idea of evil Tau.

ah well, it least I can follow GW's own law of canon material and just pretend it doesn't exist.