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dagsta2 wrote:because thay are more good then choas

Now, we all know 'good' is a relative thing. I'd rather have a tentacle sticking out of my rear than be a Tau. That's just me though.

The Tau are deceptively 'good'. As long as you tow the line you won't be sterilized, re-educated or exterminated. Simply because they have many races fighting at their side doesn't mean those forces are serving with them rather than for them.

WDs 261 (US) and 262 Aus, I can't find the UK issue number.

I will admit that the background has 'darkened' between Tau and Tau Empire, but the original design was for a 'good' race.

Cheers

Andrew

jacetms87 wrote:They are simply the least evil of the races.

Evil is in the eye of the beholder.

There's an in-universe example of an Eldar referring to Orks as the most noble of the intelligent species based on their direct, non-duplicitous, and simple philosophy. Orks like fighting. They don't like genocide, conquest, enslavement, politics, mysteries, or existentialism: just fighting.

DarknessEternal wrote:

AndrewC wrote:GW Designers state categorically that Tau are designed to be the good guys.

Citation needed.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

AndrewC wrote: GW Designers state categorically that Tau are designed to be the good guys.

[Citation Needed]

Don't tell me that reading the first half page of this thread is beyond your attention span, seriously!

purplefood wrote:

agnosto wrote:Whipee, another one of these threads. Let the Tau hate roll....

Tau have relatively little hate compared to some armies i could mention...

I seriously doubt that. Many people find Space marines boring and dislike the neglect of all other races, but the hatemongering and made up lies spread for this Tau race are beyond compare according to my experience.

They are the Xeno. Hatred is the Emperor's greatest gift to Humanity.

No major army in 40k is 'Good', and no major army barring Chaos is 'Evil'. The Tau are more towards being 'Good' than any other major army. Yeah sure they preach a good ideology, certainly better than "Die Xenos! For The Emperor!", but when it comes down to it the Ethereals would destroy any race that continually refuses to join 'The Greater Good'.

Kroothawk wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

AndrewC wrote:GW Designers state categorically that Tau are designed to be the good guys.

Citation needed.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

AndrewC wrote: GW Designers state categorically that Tau are designed to be the good guys.

[Citation Needed]

Don't tell me that reading the first half page of this thread is beyond your attention span, seriously!

purplefood wrote:

agnosto wrote:Whipee, another one of these threads. Let the Tau hate roll....

Tau have relatively little hate compared to some armies i could mention...

I seriously doubt that. Many people find Space marines boring and dislike the neglect of all other races, but the hatemongering and made up lies spread for this Tau race are beyond compare according to my experience.

And I was just about to quote both of them myself Kroot and label them both as illiterates after you JUST provided citation-was going to try to help you out . Of course, every time I hear someone mention Tau working towards "the greater good" I want to model up the council and Simon Pegg from "Hot Fuzz"

I won't even claim them to be good guys, however....Perspective. That is All

The Tau aren't good. They are a prime example of a well meaning "manifest destiny" 19. century imperialist. They view your culture as inferior and they will wage war against you if they deem it necessary.
The big difference to all other races is that, despite all those things, the Tau grant you a chance to join them and become a valued citizen. Sure, they still regard themselfs as the "first among equals" in political matters, but besides that they give you a chance to live no worse than the average Tau citizen IF you assimilate into their culture. No other 40k faction ( with the exception of the Tyrannid...hurhur ) grants you this option.

Well at least the tau have waffles. And pancakes. And pie. Also cake.

Whats your imperium got? Corpse starch? Fear? Maybe hotdogs?

Bah. the only good is the Emperors shining light.

I noticed the whole "sterilization" thing is touted a lot as the Tau being baddies. But outside of DoW are they even mentioned to sterilize?

Never saw them as good guys, I always read the Greater Good as the Greater Good Of The Tau....you are just helping them along if you join them, don't expect to get the best of the deal.

It's like all men are equal, but some are more so..

Harriticus wrote:I noticed the whole "sterilization" thing is touted a lot as the Tau being baddies. But outside of DoW are they even mentioned to sterilize?

Nope. But then again people will take anything to try to prove their opinion. If we accept fluff from videogames, then we have to accept it all, such as how a certain entire space marine chapter is lead by a librarian who is a servant of KHORNE.

juraigamer wrote:

Harriticus wrote:I noticed the whole "sterilization" thing is touted a lot as the Tau being baddies. But outside of DoW are they even mentioned to sterilize?

Nope. But then again people will take anything to try to prove their opinion. If we accept fluff from videogames, then we have to accept it all, such as how a certain entire space marine chapter is lead by a librarian who is a servant of KHORNE.

Being a psyker doesn't exclude you from worshiping Khorne.

KingDeath wrote:

juraigamer wrote:

Harriticus wrote:I noticed the whole "sterilization" thing is touted a lot as the Tau being baddies. But outside of DoW are they even mentioned to sterilize?

Nope. But then again people will take anything to try to prove their opinion. If we accept fluff from videogames, then we have to accept it all, such as how a certain entire space marine chapter is lead by a librarian who is a servant of KHORNE.

Being a psyker doesn't exclude you from worshiping Khorne.

Really? I thought Khorne hates psykers.... Wow, how fluff does change.

Not sure on Big K's viewpoint on psykers, but wouldn't one need them to bring Daemons over into realspace? I know he hated mages in Fantasy, yet could ally with Tzeentch (the God of Magic) but not Slaanesh... which makes little sense, but there it was.

Though, if one ignores all of the fluff novels, games, and the like... you lose a lot of insight into pretty much everything that provides background information on most of the setting.

It also enters into the "grades of canon" that the Star Wars universe currently... enjoys. This is, basically, a rating on how "canonical" a given bit of information is, with regards to the universe, based on its source. At the top of the list, A-canon, are the original films and the prequel trilogy, then there's the... novelizations of these 6 films, then... uh, I think the EU novels and comic books... then maybe the TV shows? I forget what order they list their canon entries after the movies.

With 40K, I suppose we would start with the codexes for the table-top game, then, um, WD magazine, then... uhm... forum posts and such from Devs? Then third-party, approved games like DH? Then video games? No idea, really.

It's been there since the begining fluff (RT days), Khorne hates sorcerers, magic and psykers. Summoning Khornate daemons is presumably done via sacrifice. No magic needed, just add blood (Insta-daemon TM). IIRC some Khornate units, or wargear have rules that give them better psychic defence due to their patron god.

iproxtaco wrote:No major army in 40k is 'Good', and no major army barring Chaos is 'Evil'. The Tau are more towards being 'Good' than any other major army. Yeah sure they preach a good ideology, certainly better than "Die Xenos! For The Emperor!", but when it comes down to it the Ethereals would destroy any race that continually refuses to join 'The Greater Good'.

Ok, the join or die lie gets said a lot and it makes a fair amount of sense, but can anyone think of an example? Some time when the tau to wiped out a peaceful race that didn't want to join?

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No major army in 40k is 'Good', and no major army barring Chaos is 'Evil'. The Tau are more towards being 'Good' than any other major army. Yeah sure they preach a good ideology, certainly better than "Die Xenos! For The Emperor!", but when it comes down to it the Ethereals would destroy any race that continually refuses to join 'The Greater Good'.

Ok, the join or die lie gets said a lot and it makes a fair amount of sense, but can anyone think of an example? Some time when the tau to wiped out a peaceful race that didn't want to join?

dont waste your time dude, no buddy hear has bothered to even read how my post defending the tau. An so far no one has refuted it either. This is not an argument thread its a Tau hate spam thread based off of ilogical and irrelevant arguments that have already clearly been dissproven in previous posts. However the oppisite opinion just continues to spam the forum with the same irrelevant bs totally ignoring the other sides opinion. thats how forums work :p I think this thread was done 20 posts ago anyways, after that poster mentioned sterilization for the 20th time. Really what it comes down to is either you do not think the tau are bad and evil, thus making them the good guys. or your a critic who hates their way of thinking and ignores the othersides arguments. Thats literally the current standpoint and how it will continue to be for the next 40k amount of years

but hey, haters gonna hate

Tyranids are the least evil army. Theyre no more evil then a virus...a very hungry virus..

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No major army in 40k is 'Good', and no major army barring Chaos is 'Evil'. The Tau are more towards being 'Good' than any other major army. Yeah sure they preach a good ideology, certainly better than "Die Xenos! For The Emperor!", but when it comes down to it the Ethereals would destroy any race that continually refuses to join 'The Greater Good'.

Ok, the join or die lie gets said a lot and it makes a fair amount of sense, but can anyone think of an example? Some time when the tau to wiped out a peaceful race that didn't want to join?

I believe it was called Nimbosa or something like that. And the fact of the matter is that their are a lot of races in 40k not interested in being a part of the greater good and that even if you destroy their military they will never surrender. The only way to be at peace with those type of races is to exterminate them. The Tau are going have to commit Xenocide in the end if they ever want to expand their empire. If not they are going to fail which in the end makes them as bad as everyone else. I would wholly support the Tau if they were not interested in conquest but they are interested and its not because of the greater good. Its good old fashioned Imperialism. I am tired of having to continually post this:

Friend You are blinded by Tau propaganda. The reason the Imperium launched the Damocles Crusade is because of this:

"Exactly when the Tau Empire and the Imperium of Man first made contact with one another is unknown, for each was slow to recognise the nature of the other. For the Tau's part, it was fringe, dissident or overtly renegade elements of humanity that they first encountered, in the form of Free Captains and pirates across the coreward borders of the region called the Damocles Gulf in the Ultima Segmentum to the galactic east of Terra. The initial contacts ranged from friendly negotiations and trade to outright hostility. It was some time before the Tau Water Caste understood the fact that the humans they had encountered were merely the forgotten outcasts of an incomprehensively vast interstellar empire that stetched across the entirety of the Milky Way Galaxy. This empire was so vast, that any overt agression on the Tau's part might lead to the outright destruction of their nascent empire and the extinction of their species.

Though many of the more passionate leaders of the Tau Fire Caste called for a war of conquest against the Imperium, the Ethereals issued their instructions for the integration of the Imperium of Man into the Tau Empire. The Water Caste were to align themselves with nearby dissident human factions and over the course of several decades of patient negotiations insinuate themselves into the courts of several dozen Imperial Commanders (Planetary Governors). The influence of the Tau thus spread further and more rapidly into the Imperium than any amount of military conquest could have taken it, until a swathe of human worlds were trading with the Tau Empire in preference to the Imperium's own merchant trade cartels and Rogue Traders. Alien goods and technology flowed through the markets of these border worlds in blatant contradiction of the laws of the Imperium. The second phase of the Ethereals' instructions were thus ready to be initiated.

Upon a score of worlds, Water Caste envoys whispered long-rehearsed words into willing ears. The seeds of rebellion had long been cultivated by the Tau and now bore traitorous fruit as each Imperial Governor declared himself free of the shackles of the Imperium's rule. In the ensuing power vacuum, the Tau Empire expanded, claiming for themselves those human worlds that came to be known as the Farsight Enclaves.

The Imperium's response was unusually swift but characteristically brutal. War was declared and the Damocles Gulf Crusade was launched by the Ultima Segmentum Command, involving units of the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy and the several Chapters of Space Marines. "

"the manifest destiny of the Tau to expand the Greater Good across the galaxy. "

I would like anyone reading this to take the analogy of what would happen if the USA was paying no attention to Mexico and generally ignoring Mexicol until it started using their hidden negotiators and manipulators caused Hawaii to secede from USA and join Mexico. I'm sure I don't have to say that America would not be happy about this development.

My $0.02:

The Tau are the evilest of all. That is because they use deceit, manipulation, bribery, and the promise of wealth to achieve their goals at the expense of even their own people, if necessary. For the Greater Good is analogous to For Your Own Good.

Also the Imperium utilizes useful or helpful aliens as well. Jokaero are a perfect example, as are Daemonhosts.

There, two non-human races working for the Imperium available on the tabletop. Sorta like the two non-Tau races working for the Tau available on the table top.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No major army in 40k is 'Good', and no major army barring Chaos is 'Evil'. The Tau are more towards being 'Good' than any other major army. Yeah sure they preach a good ideology, certainly better than "Die Xenos! For The Emperor!", but when it comes down to it the Ethereals would destroy any race that continually refuses to join 'The Greater Good'.

Ok, the join or die lie gets said a lot and it makes a fair amount of sense, but can anyone think of an example? Some time when the tau to wiped out a peaceful race that didn't want to join?

I believe it was called Nimbosa or something like that. And the fact of the matter is that their are a lot of races in 40k not interested in being a part of the greater good and that even if you destroy their military they will never surrender. The only way to be at peace with those type of races is to exterminate them. The Tau are going have to commit Xenocide in the end if they ever want to expand their empire. If not they are going to fail which in the end makes them as bad as everyone else. I would wholly support the Tau if they were not interested in conquest but they are interested and its not because of the greater good. Its good old fashioned Imperialism. I am tired of having to continually post this:

Friend You are blinded by Tau propaganda. The reason the Imperium launched the Damocles Crusade is because of this:

"Exactly when the Tau Empire and the Imperium of Man first made contact with one another is unknown, for each was slow to recognise the nature of the other. For the Tau's part, it was fringe, dissident or overtly renegade elements of humanity that they first encountered, in the form of Free Captains and pirates across the coreward borders of the region called the Damocles Gulf in the Ultima Segmentum to the galactic east of Terra. The initial contacts ranged from friendly negotiations and trade to outright hostility. It was some time before the Tau Water Caste understood the fact that the humans they had encountered were merely the forgotten outcasts of an incomprehensively vast interstellar empire that stetched across the entirety of the Milky Way Galaxy. This empire was so vast, that any overt agression on the Tau's part might lead to the outright destruction of their nascent empire and the extinction of their species.

Though many of the more passionate leaders of the Tau Fire Caste called for a war of conquest against the Imperium, the Ethereals issued their instructions for the integration of the Imperium of Man into the Tau Empire. The Water Caste were to align themselves with nearby dissident human factions and over the course of several decades of patient negotiations insinuate themselves into the courts of several dozen Imperial Commanders (Planetary Governors). The influence of the Tau thus spread further and more rapidly into the Imperium than any amount of military conquest could have taken it, until a swathe of human worlds were trading with the Tau Empire in preference to the Imperium's own merchant trade cartels and Rogue Traders. Alien goods and technology flowed through the markets of these border worlds in blatant contradiction of the laws of the Imperium. The second phase of the Ethereals' instructions were thus ready to be initiated.

Upon a score of worlds, Water Caste envoys whispered long-rehearsed words into willing ears. The seeds of rebellion had long been cultivated by the Tau and now bore traitorous fruit as each Imperial Governor declared himself free of the shackles of the Imperium's rule. In the ensuing power vacuum, the Tau Empire expanded, claiming for themselves those human worlds that came to be known as the Farsight Enclaves.

The Imperium's response was unusually swift but characteristically brutal. War was declared and the Damocles Gulf Crusade was launched by the Ultima Segmentum Command, involving units of the Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy and the several Chapters of Space Marines. "

"the manifest destiny of the Tau to expand the Greater Good across the galaxy. "

I would like anyone reading this to take the analogy of what would happen if the USA was paying no attention to Mexico and generally ignoring Mexicol until it started using their hidden negotiators and manipulators caused Hawaii to secede from USA and join Mexico. I'm sure I don't have to say that America would not be happy about this development.

No actually your analogy does not work with hawii. it would be more like Guam or Puerto Rico. For the most part those were renegade planets and colonies, only very losely tied to the imperium at best. The imperium are the obvious agrressers here. The people living under the rule of the imperium are suffering anyways, the tau went in and managed to take those hurt emotions and turn them into words than into action. Also as far as anyone knows the people on those planets are now living fine fulfilled lives now that they are not some "product" of an over zealous industry whos sole purpose is to exterminate every other race in the galaxy other than their own. There was that one planet that was massacred, but that was not done by the order of the ethreals, it was done by a rouge fire caste leader who was in the end punished. An this "iron curtain" everyone keeps talking about is merely the lack of detail in the lore. thats the big secret, theres no information b/c its never been written by the creators!

darkcloud92 wrote:
No actually your analogy does not work with hawii. it would be more like Guam or Puerto Rico. For the most part those were renegade planets and colonies, only very losely tied to the imperium at best. The imperium are the obvious agrressers here. The people living under the rule of the imperium are suffering anyways, the tau went in and managed to take those hurt emotions and turn them into words than into action. Also as far as anyone knows the people on those planets are now living fine fulfilled lives now that they are not some "product" of an over zealous industry whos sole purpose is to exterminate every other race in the galaxy other than their own. There was that one planet that was massacred, but that was not done by the order of the ethreals, it was done by a rouge fire caste leader who was in the end punished. An this "iron curtain" everyone keeps talking about is merely the lack of detail in the lore. thats the big secret, theres no information b/c its never been written by the creators!

Ha ha ha.............. Whether those worlds are rebellious or not doesn't matter. Those worlds belong to the Imperium the Tau wormed their way in like any Imperialist power and swayed those worlds to join them. In the modern world this is not tolerated but of course our precious Tau can be forgiven. Look at all the factions of 40k with open and non-biased eyes and you will see that they all suck. The Imperium is not over zealous if you look at the background the Imperium is on the defensive for the most part. They are besieged on all sides by Tyranid, Ork, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necron and Chaos invasions. The Tau have everything so good because they are small and have yet to attract the notice of anyone. If they ever expanded to the size of the Imperium they would also be in a sorry state as well. Everyone except for the Tau in 40k are out to exterminate every other race in the galaxy or have you forgotten about the Hrud, a race said to be waiting for all the races to kill each other before they rise to eliminate the survivors and then rule the galaxy. The Imperium have for the most part traveled the galaxy and run into hostile aliens in the past which has led to their xenophobia but they take it too far in that they assume that all aliens are out to get them when its only 9 out of 10 that are out to get them.

KingDeath wrote:The Tau aren't good. They are a prime example of a well meaning "manifest destiny" 19. century imperialist. They view your culture as inferior and they will wage war against you if they deem it necessary.

Which part of "without subjugating" in the designer notes was unclear?

Harriticus wrote:I noticed the whole "sterilization" thing is touted a lot as the Tau being baddies. But outside of DoW are they even mentioned to sterilize?

Actually, it is not even stated in DoW.
In a parallel universe of 40k where Tau win this planet, an Imperial narrator wonders, why men and women living separated in different camps get so few children. Sterilization is his THIRD likeliest explanation (ask Mom and Dad, why men and women must meet to get children ).

Kroothawk wrote:
Which part of "without subjugating" in the designer notes was unclear?

It doesn't matter what the original designer notes said; things have changed. Plus the Tau subjugate people in the end because as I have stated their are people who live fine and love their life the way it is. They don't care for the "Imperial Creed" or the "Greater Good" but the Tau will want to bring them in line anyway meaning conquest. That is subjugation pure and simple. Everyone is guilty of this in 40k.

They are not good, they just have good publicity.

Harriticus wrote:1.) They're not genocidal (this is a big deal in the 41st Millennium, even the Imperium/Eldar engage in Xenocide/genocide)

Sure they are. Any race that will not submit to the Tau idea of the greater good is open game to them. They must be eradicated in order to spread the greater good.

2.) They promote a progressive ideology. The Greater Good works, is harmonious, and overall seems to be the best system to live under.

The Greater Good works when the point of a rifle is telling it's citizen that it works. Tau are nothing more than another race forcefully spreading their way of life and stamping out all those who oppose it.

3.) The Tau "bringing peace to the galaxy" would be by far the least bloody road taken.

How is that? The Tau have already been known to eradicate those who won't become a part of their society. They are emulating the Great Imperial Crusade which attempted to bring all of humanity under the banner of the Emperor of mankind. Those who accepted the Emperor were brought in peacefully; those who didn't want to give up their culture or way of life were brought to their knees by the Astares. I see no difference between the two. Both the Imperium and the Tau wish to impose their way of life upon the galaxy to bring peace.

The Tau do have their share of repression, but it's all pretty minor compared to everybody else.

The Tau are hard core socialists. Look at socialist societies in the real world and see that they are among the most harsh and brutal regimes in human history. The state is elevated above the common man, and anyone who dares speak out against the state is dealt with horribly.


I would guess that the Eldar, as they are now, after the Fall, are the closest thing you might be able to compare as "good guys." The Eldar realize they are a doomed race and expend the last of their efforts trying to keep the galaxy from falling under the control of Chaos. Although they are doomed, Eldar society would probably be the best society to live in in my opinion.

augustus5 wrote:

The Tau are hard core socialists. Look at socialist societies in the real world and see that they are among the most harsh and brutal regimes in human history. The state is elevated above the common man, and anyone who dares speak out against the state is dealt with horribly.

bs. Just because they have strong utilitaristic tendencies does not make them a hardcore socialist society. Besides that, your definition of socialism is severely lacking. Putting the "state above the common man" is frequently done in fascist systems, theocratic systems, all kinds of dictatorshis, many monarchies, sometimes even democracies and, of course, most so called socialist societies.

The strong veneration of the Etherals and the quasi religious dogma of the Greater Good might give the Tau society some theocratical aspects, but even that is far fetched.

In regard to the subjugating issue, the Tau do in fact incorporate species into their empire which were, at first, unwilling to join. Page six of the current codex makes this quite clear "Many less advanced alien races were incorporated within it's and most ( there not all ) of these willingly became part of the Tau Empire. So yes, the Tau will subjugate you if they deem it necessary, the difference to all other races is that even after the subjugation you will have the oportunity to become an active and valued member of the Tau society.