So what do you think 6th edition should entail?

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**creeping-deth87**

If the wounds suffered to units embarked in transports was STR6 AP3 when the vehicle explodes, I can guarantee you you'd never see Mech Guard or Mech Eldr ever again. That's virtually the entire squad dead, almost every single time.

I also cannot stress enough how against changing glancing to -1 I am. Glancing hits SHOULD have a hard time damaging vehicles, this is precisely WHY they're glancing hits.

Vehicles are really not that hard to destroy. I think most of the people complaining about it are the ones with codices that are weak at dealing with armour, like Tyranids for example.

**Eldar Savior**

I think 6th should have more exact cover rules.

**Melissia**

UsdiThunder wrote:The easy fix to transports is increasing the Str of the damage inside and outside of the vehicle when it explodes and adding damage when it becomes a wreck. Right now it's a str4 ap- when a transport goes boom to the troops inside. IF you raise it to a str 6 ap3 only those in the most powerful armour (ie Terminator, Runic, ancient, etc...) would get a save, but it wouldn't be an insta-kill since you'd have to roll to see if a wound occured.

That would be such bs. So an exploding chimera means that the entire squad dies-- why should one use Chimeras now?

All you'd be doing is punishign any low T army for being a low T army that DARES to get into their transports.

**G00fySmiley**

Melissia wrote:
G00fySmiley wrote:i think there is a reason that so many people think glancing should be -1 and only a handful (mostly imperium players) wanting it to stay the same

And there is a reason you a marines/IG player wants to keep his av 14 stuff almost untouchable to some armies (and protected from most)
This statement is so smug and obnoxious that it makes me want to punch you in the face.

my meaning was not to be smug just pointing out there might be some bias there >_<

may be me just being fairly chill but I'm enjoying the debate with vatath here, he's made some good points, and i'd like to think i have as well.

Vaktathi wrote:
G00fySmiley wrote:It is a problem for orks and from my experience tyranids. orks need to take very specialized high point items to have a chance at doing something over a glance... and like tyranids we both really need to be in close to av14 to hurt it with pk's or monstrous creatures...
At the same time however there generally isn't more than a couple AV14 units on the table, and if there are then it's going to be Battlewagons or LRBT's, then just about any unit in your army can hurt them in an assault and they've got weaker side armor. The Tyranid book deals with AV14 better (lots of MC's, Zoanthropes, rending), but also has the problem of just being poorly done, that's not a core rules issue.

as for me thinking it is a problem for all vehicles, it takes a while for people to pop my battlewagons even against highly shooty armies (IG/tau/most space marine chapters) usually drop off payload of orks, then get a deff rolla or 2 (usually ramming their vehicles) before getting blow up or wrecked)
I can't remember a game against battlewagons where I didn't pop at least one by turn two or all of them by turn 4 (usually 3). That's pretty fast, just because they don't get routinely destroyed on turn 1 doesn't mean they are overly powerful, the point of AV14 is that they *should* take a while to pop.

i think there is a reason that so many people think glancing should be -1 and only a handful (mostly imperium players) wanting it to stay the same

And there is a reason you a marines/IG player wants to keep his av 14 stuff almost untouchable to some armies (and protected from most)
I don't really field AV14 that much, most IG players don't, it's not that much more survivable than the AV12 stuff. LR's get a huge swath of special rules and can be used as an assault skateboard so they're more popular.

I guarantee you that a lot more than a "handful" of players don't want glancing to be -1. Perhaps not in this thread, but this is exactly the type of place where such opinions would be most expressed. I play many armies, I've got IG, Chaos Marines, Tyranids, Tau, Witch Hunters and Eldar. I have a pretty good perspective on whats going on. I generally play at least 1 game a week and often 2 or 3, and at more than one store. The changing of Glancing hits to -2 as opposed the -1 they were in 4E has been long hailed as one of the best changes of the otherwise side-grade of 5th edition.

Making glancing -1 simply makes anti-infantry weapons and common melee attacks simply far too capable of destroying tanks. Scatterlasers should not be used to defeat AV12, S4 melee punches should not be able to kill Battle Tanks, and Heavy Bolters should not be able to destroy a Rhino from the front. I wouldn't want to try to play DE when bolter glances could kill on a 5+.

now I agree one shot shouldn't stop/ blow up a tank or something, hence why i think they should have some sort of wound type aspect as well due to backup systems before they end up wrecked or exploded .. but make those hits to damage said systems easier to get

Well, if it doesn't have a chance to be outright destroyed then on a glance like that, I'm not quite sure what the point of changing the system would be if the goal of changing the system is to make tanks easier to kill. Not that I don't agree that the fundamental vehicles rules of 40k are flawed, they are deeply flawed and GW has never really gotten them right (hence why there's a radical change in them each edition) but I think that 5E's are the best they've had to far and don't want to see a slide back into 4E's game where tanks all too often just weren't worth it.

Deadshane1 wrote:I hope they dont change much.

I wound up quitting Fantasy b/c I hate this version. Fantasy used to require skill....Now luck has much more of a hand in who wins, which I think sucks.
Personally I find 8E much better. In 7E, if you didn't play one of 3 armies, then you didn't play. No more juggling fractions of an inch in silly dances to see who gets off the first charge that have no place in a wargame, and you don't have 5man knight units plowing through entire armies without ever taking a hit back, no more 20 PD armies, etc. 8E has its issues, but I've definitely noticed a rise in the number of players (i.e. there are some again besides the two dudes that would come in every week for a VC vs Daemons game) and the variation in armies.

I will differ to you on previous editions, i simply have only played 40k under 5th edition rules.

I have my armies, ork, and working on a black templar army currently.

I'm mostly pointig out i'd liek to see vehicles completely overhauled to make more sense, i may suggest playing a few test games at -1 for glancing as oppsed to minus 2 to see what i think after a practical result and see if it makes my BW too squishy or if i think it is a good idea. if not then i'll still think they need a change but at that point i woudl either think that -1 to glace is a good idea or a bad idea

where i play i will note land raiders / leman russ/ monolith are everywhere. and i deal with them fairly effectivly with my deff rollas, unfortunatly i see otehr aries having problems with them (mosly nid players and non battle wagon ork players) and i want them to have a better chance

I have a couple friends, one plays nids, one plays IG / SM and intil the nids player can get in mele with the av14 with a trygon (after deep striking but still can get shot to pieces before the assault)

the reason i was proposing the idea of wounds or systems which i don't know if it is the best way is to have it where other things can hurt vehicles easier... btu that vehicles are more resilliant to the dmg recieved so you dont't die to one lucky shot... but can't shrug off everything

**UsdiThunder**

creeping-deth87 wrote:If the wounds suffered to units embarked in transports was STR6 AP3 when the vehicle explodes, I can guarantee you you'd never see Mech Guard or Mech Eldr ever again. That's virtually the entire squad dead, almost every single time.

My suggestion is that the Str be upped and/or AP be assigned. If people want to mech up then there would be a risk with out a -1 to glance or re-doing the vehicle damage table. It could be just a Str increase up to 5 inside and Str4 outside with no AP. Either way I think this is a better direction to go with.

Melissa wrote:That would be such bs. So an exploding chimera means that the entire squad dies-- why should one use Chimeras now?

All you'd be doing is punishign any low T army for being a low T army that DARES to get into their transports.

It doesn't have to be Str6 AP3 it could be any number other than the low one we have now. What every one is saying that mech is god and should be nerfed. I think differently. I think if Mech will be god then there should be an inherent risk to getting in to a transport. We take similar risks when we get into our cars. Even a small fender bender can give us whiplash or brusing.

**Melissia**

G00fySmiley wrote:my meaning was not to be smug just pointing out there might be some bias there >_<

That's how it came off.

Of course there's bias, everyone's bias. Trying to point out an opponent's bias just tries to come across as hiding your own.

But I play Orks, and I play Guard, so claiming that I want this because it benefits my Guard army even though it doesn't benefit my Ork army is nonsensical.

UsdiThunder wrote:My suggestion is that the Str be upped and/or AP be assigned.

Yes, we know, and it's a bad suggestion that has horrible consequences for non-Marine armies..

**UsdiThunder**

I play Orks and Eldar and I would gladly accept this since it would mean a possibility of getting more wounds on those that mech up.

It would be a risk that I'd be willing to take, instead of hey I just popped your transport and all your guys made it out unscathed and ready for assault.

**TheRedDevil**

warpcrafter wrote:

Tyranids can still do Nidzilla despite the raise in points to Carnifexe and they have, rending genestealers, what more do they need?

Obviously wanting something other than 6e being another Nidzilla-fest like this and last edition is just criminal.

As for the rending crapshot someone else said, what else in our codex actually reachs any vehicle with rending claws other than Genestealers? Warriors can't even catch them most of them and get ID'd by the flood of anti-tank weapons everyone have, similar deal with Raveners.

Also, claiming we do nidzilla "despite" the raise in points on Carnifexes is a hilarious statement. The universal opinion is carnifexes blow so hard you're about as likely to see them as ripper swarms.

They only people who think av14 should be tough or tougher are melta spamming Imperial players.

Edit: To clarify, I think the distribution of weapons says it all. Pretty much every army stuffs as much anti-tank weapons as it can and suffers almost no downside fighting hordes despite having maybe 2-3 anti-horde guns.

**Melissia**

And I would hate it because it means I would NEVER be able to justify havin a mechanized army, making the game even MORE monotonous and bland than it already is.

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TheRedDevil wrote:They only people who think av14 should be tough or tougher are melta spamming Imperial players.

The only people whining about AV14 being too strong are whiny little tyranid players who complain that they can't do the same old overpowered nidzilla lists they used to.

**warpcrafter**

TheRedDevil wrote:
warpcrafter wrote:

Tyranids can still do Nidzilla despite the raise in points to Carnifexe and they have, rending genestealers, what more do they need?

Obviously wanting something other than 6e being another Nidzilla-fest like this and last edition is just criminal.

As for the rending crapshot someone else said, what else in our codex actually reachs any vehicle with rending claws other than Genestealers? Warriors can't even catch them most of them and get ID'd by the flood of anti-tank weapons everyone have, similar deal with Raveners.

Also, claiming we do nidzilla "despite" the raise in points on Carnifexes is a hilarious statement. The universal opinion is carnifexes blow so hard you're about as likely to see them as ripper swarms.

They only people who think av14 should be tough or tougher are melta spamming Imperial players.

Edit: To clarify, I think the distribution of weapons says it all. Pretty much every army stuffs as much anti-tank weapons as it can and suffers almost no downside fighting hordes despite having maybe 2-3 anti-horde guns.

Carnifexes are not the only Tyranid monstrous creature. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they the only list that can have monstrous creatures in EVERY FOC slot?

**Nulipuli2**

Flyers, make plasma weaponry better

**TheRedDevil**

technically we can't in elites, but Hive guard are t6 so it works out the same. Also, Harpies (the fast attack MC) is t5 sv4+, so it's pretty much never used. Like I said, I'd like to take a list that doesn't have 6-8 MCs and maybe 30 little guys.

@Melissia: I'll admit my comment was uncalled for, I apologize. It's not the nicest way to call me out, but a lot of people are making some suggestions that would result in a mechless environment, so it's understandable you're frustrated. I'd just like to point out it's just as frustrating that people feel Nids should HAVE to take a mountain of MCs and genestealers on the off-chance they have something AV14.

**Melissia**

So do it.

**redeyed**

I dont know if its me, but I cant say I have had trouble with Armour 14 with my nids.

If its leman russ's Ive gone round the "rear" with lictors using flesh hooks and charging if I survived (which I usually do as people fixate on my big monsters)

if its the dreaded land raider/monofilth, thropes usually sort that or a hive tyrant/carnifex

**Vaktathi**

UsdiThunder wrote: IF you raise it to a str 6 ap3 only those in the most powerful armour (ie Terminator, Runic, ancient, etc...) would get a save, but it wouldn't be an insta-kill since you'd have to roll to see if a wound occured.

Transports would never be used again.

With a wreck, think about this, any damage that is severe enough to stop a TANK from running should be damaging to the occupants inside.

Not necessarily. A lot of times vehicles are abandoned when they may still be relatively intact but there's a *chance* of fire/explosion, or if disabled in an unfavorable position, or if certain crew members are injured/killed which can happen quite often without others being harmed.

G00fySmiley wrote:
I will differ to you on previous editions, i simply have only played 40k under 5th edition rules.

The main thing was that in the previous edition, transports other than skimmers were almost nonexistent (mainly because Skimmers had some ridiculous rules), most often used as mobile cover than actual transports if taken at all. After seeing Leman Russ tanks killed by bolt pistols, multilasers killing Fire Prisms, etc, the old damage chart was not a good thing. Granted there were other issues as well, but that was a big one.

where i play i will note land raiders / leman russ/ monolith are everywhere. and i deal with them fairly effectivly with my deff rollas, unfortunatly i see otehr aries having problems with them (mosly nid players and non battle wagon ork players) and i want them to have a better chance

Well, Nids and Orks are the two armies who have always had the worst time dealing with heavy armor in every edition. Next time you're around the gaming area you should see how long the AV14 units last against the other armies.

I have a couple friends, one plays nids, one plays IG / SM and intil the nids player can get in mele with the av14 with a trygon (after deep striking but still can get shot to pieces before the assault)

That's basically always how Tyranids have dealt with heavy armor though. The problem is the current book just sorta putzed the execution of that army as a whole. Tyranids even going back to 2E have never really had the ability to engage heavy armor much outside melee range.

the reason i was proposing the idea of wounds or systems which i don't know if it is the best way is to have it where other things can hurt vehicles easier... btu that vehicles are more resilliant to the dmg recieved so you dont't die to one lucky shot... but can't shrug off everything

That's basically how MC's are now. MC's take damage faster, but remain operating at full capacity until dead. Tanks may not take damage as often, but can be killed in one shot and will lose effectiveness with each hit.

**DaemonJellybaby**

I would love to have flyers!
0-1 FOC slot!
OK how about having a slightly modified damage table?
this means that the occupants are safe from small arms fire but are vulnerable to anti tanks weapons
this is slightly biased because I like explosions

and the explosions would certainly spice up your game @Melissia
so here goes nothing!

On the result of a 5, roll on the chart with a -1 modifier
on the result of a 6, roll with no modifier.

other modifiers do not apply to this table (like ap1=+1)
When I say you fall back you fall back, you have been shaken like a Bond Martini
When I say you take a pinning check, you take it cos that tank is going everywhere and that shrapnel will take your head off or go through your eyepieces! (represented by rending)
I am unsure if Fearless should be ignored. Are fearless units just too out of their mind to care?

1 Wrecked. Every model inside suffers a S3 hit AP- then disembark
this represents the tank crew being killed. the passengers are hit by some shrapnel but are generally ok
2 Wrecked. Every model inside suffers a S4 Rending hit. Survivors must take a LD check then disembark
the crew has been killed and an ammo box has cooked off
3 Wrecked. Every model inside suffers a S5 rending hit. Survivors must disembark then immediately make a fall back move
several ammo boxes have cooked off, crew is dead
4 Explodes D6 inches from the edge of the tank, all models touched suffer a S4 rending hit. Every model inside suffers a S5 Rending hit. Survivors must take a LD check
primary weapon ammo cooks off, crew is dead
5 Explodes 2D6 inches from the edge of the tank, all models touched suffer a S4 rending hit and must take a pinning check. Every model inside suffers a S6 rending hit. Survivors must fall back and take a pinning check
a fuel tank has exploded and some ammo has cooked off, crew is dead
6 Explodes 3D6 all models touched suffer a S5 Rending hit and must take a pinning check. All models inside are very very dead
all the ammo and all the fuel has blown up, all models inside are shredded by the shrapnel and fires, crew is flying across the battlefield in bits

This make transporting models more risky and if you have infantry hide the tank, they will get seriously shredded if anything goes badly wrong
also, if those niddys do swarm the tank they are likely to suffer for their success.
it gives a more real representation of how armoured vehicles explode (fuel, ammo etc) and how the occupants would react rather than just strolling out the rear hatch like they had just stopped for a cuppa.
The explosions give a representation of just how powerful a weapon like a lascannon or a railgun is to a tank.

**Melissia**

Again, any extra damage is still going to punish non-Marine models more than Marine models. If you want to stop MEQ mechanization, then this isn't gonna do it because they suffer less from it than non-MEQ.

**gendoikari87**

With a wreck, think about this, any damage that is severe enough to stop a TANK from running should be damaging to the occupants inside.

Wrong, utterly. a shot that's strong enough to stop a full battletank in it's tracks could destroy a transport with NO damage to it's occupants. or a little. the only way you get massive casualites in a tank is with shaped charge warheads of the generation III type. or just a massive blast. otherwise, your shooting for the engine, which is going to do nothing to pasengers most of the time.

**Anvildude**

I think that, instead of nerfing stuff, or making stuff stronger, more races should have access to a greater variety of weaponry. Why are Imperials the only ones that have access to Thunderfire Cannon type artillery? Don't Orks absolutely love big guns and bigger explosions? Couldn't Nids have Plasma Bugs ala Starship Troopers?

Why don't Orks have access to Melta?

Why can't Marines make vehicles go faster?

Why are Marines and Necrons the only races that have AV14 on more than one vehicle facing?

Why don't Nids have access to bigger guns?

Why can't Tau stick some blades on their Crisis suits for DCCWs?

Why aren't there more Options for everyone? It could be balanced with costs, or rarity, or whatever, but the fact that these races, which are all constantly fighting each other, don't take inspiration from each other, even if it's just experimental weaponry?

**DaemonJellybaby**

true, but having the explosion AP1/2/3? thats madness,
Marines should suffer less casualties because they are in power armour
Guardsmen should die because they should, that is thier job

Spoiler:

rending also means that everyone has something to fear
it is pretty difficult to create a chart that will not be biased to MEQs because to kill them outright means every other race gets shredded!
at leased rending is equally nasty to a termie and a guardsman

**Xarian**

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Ok, apologies if someone has written this here before me (at work so no time to read all the replies), but I want grenades back!

I've said this before, grenades now are pretty useless. I would love the old rules from 2nd Ed back again. Being able to throw grenades and actually have the damn things do some damage. Be they Krak, Frag, Melta, or that most awesome weapon the Vortex grenade.

Cmon GW, do the right thing!

Wholeheartedly agree. I would love to see the ability to toss grenades with different profiles - plasma, photon, that'd all be awesome.

On the other points:

Tyranids took a huge hit when Rending got nerfed. They relied on rending critters (in every single FOC slot) in order to beat vehicles, since their shooting is exceedingly poor against vehicles. Against a Land Raider, they have... what, MCs, and glancing hits from the Hive Guard? It's nearly as bad with AV13 stuff, too. The fix here is to re-do the Tyranid codex, with some relatively minor changes... for example, making Tyranid rending claws "special" by using +1d6 instead of +1d3. However, this stuff is all internal to Tyranids - however screwed up their codex and special rules are, it shouldn't dictate the rest of the rules for 6th ed.

Changing glancing from -2 to -1 was already in 4e. It got changed for a good reason - vehicles were dying left and right to medium-strength weaponry due to the volume of fire. It diluted the necessity for using anti-vehicle weaponry, which is very inefficient when used against non-vehicle units (the one exception being big beefy MCs).

The primary problem with TLOS is that it relies on a subjective assessment followed by an agreement with the opposing player; in other words, it's adjudicated every time, rather than using a simple method (like reading a specific rule or consulting a chart) like the rest of the game. As a result of that, people just say "sure, whatever, 4+". Because that's what it says in the rulebook what you are supposed to do when you can't make up your mind. It needs simple, clear-cut rules. This terrain feature? Do this. This other terrain feature? Do something else. None of this "units in this terrain feature have this special rule unless you can see their toe or left pinky finger from a 45 degree angle, in which case you have this other special rule". Like unit stats, for example - you have a set WS vs WS chart for close combat. You don't eyeball it and say "this guy looks like he has WS5? you think WS3? okay, let's just call it 4+ and it's all good".

**DaemonJellybaby**

@ Anvildude, that means giving every race a new codex

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@ Xarian how many grenades are you tossing? having a whole unit, 10 men, toss 10 frag grenades takes about 5mins, seriously slowing the game down
(if each model tosses a smallbang template with scatter)

**Melissia**

Which, ideally, a new rulebook will entail eventually!

**htj**

There seems to be a lot of comments geared at making transports less effective, no doubt due to their prevalence in that mystical beast 'the meta-game.' Here's a thought for all those who are anti-mech: Rather than nerfing mech, how about making infantry better? Maybe that way, both mechies and footsloggers can be viable.

Theoretically.

**DaemonJellybaby**

@htj
Footsloggers have 4+ cover, what else do they need?

**Xarian**

DaemonJellybaby wrote:@ Anvildude, that means giving every race a new codex

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Xarian how many grenades are you tossing? having a whole unit, 10 men, toss 10 frag grenades takes about 5mins, seriously slowing the game down
(if each model tosses a smallbang template with scatter)

That's a valid point. In all likelihood, it couldn't use the blast marker for that reason alone... not to mention that Orks would really suffer if you could throw 10 small blast markers at them with a cheap infantry unit, even if it was S2 AP-. It would probably be a 6" range secondary weapon (like Frag Grenades, S4 AP5, so a Bolter would be better unless you were using Scouts or you wanted to assault).

htj wrote:There seems to be a lot of comments geared at making transports less effective, no doubt due to their prevalence in that mystical beast 'the meta-game.' Here's a thought for all those who are anti-mech: Rather than nerfing mech, how about making infantry better? Maybe that way, both mechies and footsloggers can be viable.

Theoretically.

The problem is that infantry ride in the mech

**akaean**

They did try to make infantry better. Infantry can get a 4+ cover save like it was candy, and now even non fleet modesl can "run" instead of shooting- drastically increasing their speed.

The problem is that transports (of the non Eldar Variety) are so cheap. And when your infantry model gets out of its 35 point rhino- it still has all the advantages of an infantry model.

Buffing infantry doesn't do anything to transport spamming- since the transports are transporting infantry- and as such those models would gain all the benefits of normal infantry- except more- since they can huddle behind their transport for cover- you can use the transports to block LOS or enemy movement.

There are just so many tactical advantages to taking transports like Rhinos- that simply buffing infantry won't ever fix.

What we really need is a price hike for transports.

Let transports be as good as they are- if transports stay as good as they are, they need a massive price hike.

60 points base for a rhino with smoke launchers and a pintle mounted bolter.

70 points for a Chimera base

80 points for a Dark Eldar Raider base

110 points for a Wave Serpent Base

this is just guesswork but you get the idea.

You get the idea. If transports stay as good as they are- they need a price hike. But the only way GW could do that with out screwing newer codex's (which is bad for sales) in comparison to old ones with cheap transports.

The only way you could balance this with with an edition change is by nerfing transports somehow.

**Vaktathi**

DaemonJellybaby wrote:@htj
Footsloggers have 4+ cover, what else do they need?

There's a lot of things they could do. they can dig in to enhance cover saves, plant/clear minefields, etc. flames of war has lots of cool things infantry can do. Trying to shoot at dug in veteran infantry that have gone to ground in a woods at long range is literally impossible, and even at short range a complete nightmare that requires heavy cannons to dislodge. 40k has nothing like that. There's lots of board interaction that could occur.

akaean wrote:70 points for a Chimera base

You'll notice it was like this for the first year of 5E, chimeras actually were 97pts with the equipment they have now, 85 with just guns, 70 base. Nobody took them. The Chimera ended up about where many were thinking it would be, I personally was guessing 65pts with side AV11, they made it 55 and kept the side AV10.

**htj**

Vaktathi wrote:
DaemonJellybaby wrote:@htj
Footsloggers have 4+ cover, what else do they need?
There's a lot of things they could do. they can dig in to enhance cover saves, plant/clear minefields, etc. flames of war has lots of cool things infantry can do. Trying to shoot at dug in veteran infantry that have gone to ground in a woods at long range is literally impossible, and even at short range a complete nightmare that requires heavy cannons to dislodge. 40k has nothing like that. There's lots of board interaction that could occur.

Ah, now this I like. A 4+ cover save and being a little faster on their pins isn't going to rival being in a transport, as things stand. The point about infantry then going in the mech is a good one, countered, I feel, by allowing infantry to perform special actions whilst on foot. Such as the above one.

**DaemonJellybaby**

you are right htj having a 3+cover amongst other things would make infantry units very worth having on the board
(sneaky melta teams with move thru cover comes to mind)

@xarian, why not just whip out those bolt pistols shoot and then charge in, personally I think grenades should cause more damage than pistols, just on the way in to combat instead of in the shooting phase
i know this means that they can effectively cause casualties three times which is a flaw in my logic

@vakathi i like the idea of interacting with the board such as planting minefields etc
i would happily never move my infantry squads if they got +1cover (digging in) and +1BS for non heavy weapons (aiming/ balancing weapons, heavy weapons are too heavy to balance against a log or low wall) for simply sitting still
Kroot FTW!

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One nice update would be SM run into battle without thier armour
and you have to pay for the privilege of being power armoured