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Awww c'mon KK, trotting that out is just rude. I know that a trick was missed with that one, Timone ran away scaring the sculpter leaving him unable to complete the job for laughter

I for one am glad that RH didn't contact the leeches... nah that's not right, the vampires... no still not there, aha Lawyers. This way they can spend the money not wasted on them on shiney shiney new toys for us

I don't countenance the point that GW is perfect, but there are times to pick and choose your battles and for RH this wasn't one of them. @Avatar 720, negative comments are fine, whining is just so common now that it's boring.

Kanluwen wrote:If there was no GW , there'd be no real demand for models from most of these smaller companies. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a competing relationship.

I see them more as a pox upon GW's house, personally, and a welcome one at that.

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:You don't like these small mini companies, do ya Kan?

No, I don't like people calling them "competitors" when they're clearly not.

If there was no GW , there'd be no real demand for models from most of these smaller companies. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a competing relationship.

This is BS. Get the facts straight:

The demand for Fantasy miniatures started with D&D, followed by other RPGs. GW started as a store and importer for D&D and decided to make its own miniature range for those games (after Ral Partha and others showed how successful you could be with it). So GW basically grew by exploiting the popularity of D&D. Since then there has been a steady demand for fantasy miniatures, some for wargaming, some for RPGs, some for painters and collectors. Raging Heroes clearly makes miniatures for painters and collectors, being too delicate for the average wargamer. Have a look at the Coolminiornot store to see more miniature ranges of that kind.

Hope that made things clear.

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:You don't like these small mini companies, do ya Kan?

No, I don't like people calling them "competitors" when they're clearly not.

If there was no GW , there'd be no real demand for models from most of these smaller companies. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a competing relationship.

Ouze wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:You don't like these small mini companies, do ya Kan?

No, I don't like people calling them "competitors" when they're clearly not.

If there was no GW , there'd be no real demand for models from most of these smaller companies. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a competing relationship.

Oh look. A cleverly worded personal attack, that when looked at in quotes isn't so cleverly worded.

But really. Despite what Kroothawk says, how many of these companies were there "filling the demand for Dungeons and Dragons models"?

Facts are, these companies rely on GW's customer base and GW's games for business.

No, it's not a personal attack at all. I believe, that you believe, what you said was true. Hence, it was not a personal attack, simply a factual statement.

Unless you... you're not saying you don't actually believe the inflammatory, ridiculous things you say, such as just now, are you? Because they have a word for that.

Ouze wrote:No, it's not a personal attack at all. I believe, that you believe, what you said was true. Hence, it was not a personal attack, simply a factual statement.

Unless you... you're not saying you don't actually believe the inflammatory, ridiculous things you say, such as just now, are you? Because they have a word for that.

Umm, I think you are reading too much into this, and it is indeed you who is in danger of living under a bridge. Inflammatary comments will garner you no respect, everone has their own PoV and you have done nothing to further this discussion.

(throws offal over the parapet)

On topic, people are being disingenuous if they belive that GW are not responsible for luring a large percentage of people into wargaming (whether they stay with GW or not is another matter) and there are companies that are well set to take advantage of that fact. Indeed a lot of them hint at the same aesthetics, which stands them in good stead. I will not say that I'm happy that RH have been forced to pull the Llam head, but I'm not surprised (cue the white knight boredom).

They probably should have looked into whether or not they could get a pro bono lawyer to defend them. Not sure how that works in France, though.

There are some vague similarities between the heads, but generally I don't think they are significant enough for GWS to have definitively prevailed in court.

Ouze wrote:They probably should have looked into whether or not they could get a pro bono lawyer to defend them. Not sure how that works in France, though.

There are some vague similarities between the heads, but generally I don't think they are significant enough for GWS to have definitively prevailed in court.

Agreed, but it would have still probably have cost them valuable time. I don't know what everyone elses view on the head is, but I see it as having been more like a splash release. I honestly believe that the vast majory of customers had already purchased the item that were of that inclination, due to the hype building upto that point.

Captain Jack wrote:

Ouze wrote:They probably should have looked into whether or not they could get a pro bono lawyer to defend them. Not sure how that works in France, though.

There are some vague similarities between the heads, but generally I don't think they are significant enough for GWS to have definitively prevailed in court.

Agreed, but it would have still probably have cost them valuable time.

While that is clearly true, if you give the bully your milk money on Monday, he's going to be back on Tuesday. Defending yourself from IP trolls is already a cost of doing business in other industries, and it looks like it is going to be one here too.

That's only true if you fly too close to the sun. As I see it the only thing it's cost RH is the (very) slow trickle of orders for the niche kit post the initial haste to purchase. All this IP stuff is getting old for me, there are companies that make a point of sailing too close to the wind. However RH isn't one of those and it is a genuine shame that it's come to this within the industry.

Kanluwen wrote:But really. Despite what Kroothawk says, how many of these companies were there "filling the demand for Dungeons and Dragons models"?
Facts are, these companies rely on GW's customer base and GW's games for business.

Let's look at Raging Heroes models to see if they make sense in and only in a Warhammer tabletop game:


Nope.


Nope.


Nope.

The others are so generic, they can be used for anything. Being delicate resin models though, they are not robust enough for usual tabletop games.

So your argument is invalid. And I don't like to be quoted deliberately out of context just to fit an invalid argument.

I guess GW are going to send a C&D to Babylonians next? I think Mesopotamia will quake with fear in the face of such false litigation.

Talk about hubris. Hubris before the fall...



[edit]
I guess I should read through the whole thread (or even the second page) before posting as Kyotosan beat me to it.
I guess it just goes to show how obvious the trolling that this C&D really is.

It takes some pretty large Lamassu testicles to think they can claim such as their own or even a copy of their own.

GW need to do damage control NOW. This crap is just getting well and truly out of hand. As if they are having a competition with themselves to see how the hell they can out do each previous PR fubar. It's pretty astonishing.
[/edit]

alphaomega wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:...next GW will try to assert a trademark on Jesus.

That one the can have. Just as long as he has a beard and sandals

The issue does seem to be heading towards anything Mythological with Skulls (that is the important bit that separated the RH Lammasu from the Babylon one...) is clearly a product of the Grimdark Fantasy setting. If RH had done the head without skulls would we be here now?

So what you're really saying is, one day we'll be able to get a miniature of Jesus covered in skulls? Don't lie and get my hopes up.

aka_mythos wrote:So what you're really saying is, one day we'll be able to get a miniature of Jesus covered in skulls? Don't lie and get my hopes up.

My favorite part of the Codex: Nazareth was where Jesus carved his name into Lucifer's heart.

Ouze wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:So what you're really saying is, one day we'll be able to get a miniature of Jesus covered in skulls? Don't lie and get my hopes up.

My favorite part of the Codex: Nazareth was where Jesus carved his name into Lucifer's heart.

That wasn't Jesus who did it.

It was Raphael. Jesus just stood there and watched.

I bet Mark Wells is eyeballing that maelstrom games' chaos giant and wondering if he should sue them over the strikingly similar man-bits to his own.

Thought it was Michael that defeated ol' Lucy?
/Pedant

Syl-Iriah would be cool for Ariel, except she ain't in the current army bo...
oh, let me see, FW are going to bring out Ariel and she will be back in the new book when it comes out.

Now that we have seen Syl.
/cynicism

Its a Lamassu. It looks like any other fantasy Lamassu I've seen since D&D started putting black and white photos of monsters in their books.

I'd love to see GW get slapped down in court over this, probably not going to happen given the size of Raging Heroes. I'd also love to see GW actually replace their older models (and make new kits for orphan unit entries) instead of kvetching about 3rd party companies engaging in bloody capitalism, making money because they have a superior and readily available product.

Yeh sorry guys, I have to agree with GW. The head is clearly derivative, even if the sculpt is better in execution and more beautiful by a long way!

There's nothing stopping them making a 'Lammasu', just not one that looks so much like GW's version.

I'd argue the sculpt has more to do with GW's than the original Babylonian.

From a GW annual report, by Mark Wells, CEO - age 48 making 280,000 GBp a year:
Our continual investment in product quality, using our defendable intellectual property, provides us with a considerable barrier to entry for potential competitors: it is our Fortress Wall. While our 382 Hobby centres which show customers how to collect, paint and play with our miniatures and games provide another barrier to entry: our Fortress Moat. We have been building our Fortress Wall and Moat for many years and the competitive advantage they provide gives us confidence in our ability to grow profitably in the future.

If that isn't paranoia, I dunno what is. His little "castle and moat" garbage is a cute little name for how they gak all over others trying to flesh out the hobby in their own ways by providing products and support where GW has failed to do so.

Kroothawk wrote:Being delicate resin models though, they are not robust enough for usual tabletop games.

Just on an off-related note regarding this comment, the models aren't exactly delicate. They're actually made of a pretty pliable and durable resin material that allows for alot of stress and is very resistant.

Evilgnome wrote:Yeh sorry guys, I have to agree with GW. The head is clearly derivative, even if the sculpt is better in execution and more beautiful by a long way!

And if you look at the manticore head it somewhat resembles a lion except they added horns and better details, better pull that too! And jeez these newly sculpted WWII German minis have trenchcoats and gas masks, clearly DKoK derivatives! Cease and desist!

I love the idea that the market for these companies wouldn't exist without GW. Jeez Kan... they've got you hook, line and sinker don't they?

Personally speaking I think that this Lammasu head does look like the GW one. The way its set up, the nose ring, everything about it is designed to look like a (much) better version of the old GW one. It is derivative. Of course, so much of GW's stuff is also derivative... so GW are just being hypocrites.

But I maintain that the reason for this C&D is not because it looks like GW's but because FW is about to make one/is currently making one, and GW don't want the competition (yes Kan - c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n).

H.B.M.C. wrote:I love the idea that the market for these companies wouldn't exist without GW. Jeez Kan... they've got you hook, line and sinker don't they?

Personally speaking I think that this Lammasu head does look like the GW one. The way its set up, the nose ring, everything about it is designed to look like a (much) better version of the old GW one. It is derivative. Of course, so much of GW's stuff is also derivative... so GW are just being hypocrites.

But I maintain that the reason for this C&D is not because it looks like GW's but because FW is about to make one/is currently making one, and GW don't want the competition (yes Kan - c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n).

Actually what i maintain is that unless you are willing to copy right Jesus (which personally i couldnt care less), you can not copyright that head as it is based on ifrit/jenie illustrations if i am not wrong.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I love the idea that the market for these companies wouldn't exist without GW. Jeez Kan... they've got you hook, line and sinker don't they?

I don't know if this is meant to be serious or not: but if you were to ask people buying Lammasus why they're buying them, I can be reasonably certain that it's not for RPGs--but for a Chaos Dwarf force.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I like seeing third party companies that do quality work. Raging Heroes does that, and I will say that it's silly that GW waited until after it was released to do a C&D or even say anything.

Personally speaking I think that this Lammasu head does look like the GW one. The way its set up, the nose ring, everything about it is designed to look like a (much) better version of the old GW one. It is derivative. Of course, so much of GW's stuff is also derivative... so GW are just being hypocrites.

Ehh. I always have a hard time reconciling this stance of "But GW did it once, so it's okay that everyone else copies them now!".

But I maintain that the reason for this C&D is not because it looks like GW's but because FW is about to make one/is currently making one, and GW don't want the competition (yes Kan - c-o-m-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-n).

They don't want the competition for a specific model.

Raging Heroes, in the grand scheme of things, is not a 'competing entity' with Games Workshop.
That's the problem I have with this idea of them being competition. Every so often there's models where you'll see competition between the two, but for the most part Raging Heroes is doing stuff that either GW doesn't or has done it in such a way that GW has no real basis to say "THEY'RE COPYCATS!".

Evilgnome wrote:Yeh sorry guys, I have to agree with GW. The head is clearly derivative, even if the sculpt is better in execution and more beautiful by a long way!
There's nothing stopping them making a 'Lammasu', just not one that looks so much like GW's version.
I'd argue the sculpt has more to do with GW's than the original Babylonian.

Lets identify what constitutes a Lamassu, as defined by those fine Babylonian statues.
Bulls body, Human head, Eagle wings. Curly beard, horns. These elements are not protectable.
GW's Lamassu: check, on all counts. Additional features: bull ring in nose, ornate banding on horns, feral teeth.
Bull ring in the nose is a intuitive and logical step from a bull's body. Many representations of Minotaurs (another bull-based mythological creature), and many beast-men, feature nose rings.
Banded horns: a staple of fantasy drawings as well - it helps to establish the creature as both intelligent and powerful. Hardly a unique GW thing.
Feral teeth: Again, a proven way to show bestiality; big pointy teeth.

RH's Lamassu on the other hand:
uses a Lion's body (well, a manticore's body, which is a lion's body) - but the suit is about the head. Has a mane. Has 2 sets of horns. Has a braided beard. Has skulls in its beard.
It is of significantly different proportion, posing, and skill of execution. I would argue that RH's lamassu is by far a more unique and distinct representation of a Lamassu than GW's.

It bears a passing similarity, but no more than should be expected for two sculptural works in the same scale of the same subject. It would fail miserably on the real test, of substantial similarity.

Trasvi wrote:
It bears a passing similarity, but no more than should be expected for two sculptural works in the same scale of the same subject. It would fail miserably on the real test, of substantial similarity.

I read what you wrote and took another look...

If you compare it to say, an original Babylonian Lammasu, I'd say it resembles the GW version more strongly than the Babylonian one, which has a hat for starters, and no horns to speak of.

Is it a result of 'convergent' sculpting? We'd need to see the original concept art to get a better idea, these things can happen on the subconscious level.

There are many options for making something uniquely different and not converging at something that resembles the GW version directly, just Google some Lammasu images and there's lots of variation beyond the features you mentioned.


Is it better executed and visually much nicer than GW's? Definitely!(I like it and if I had the $ I'd get one)

Are these guys the same as Chapterhouse, who only seem to make accessories for GW products, not in the least, there's plenty of originality here.

^^ Babylon Lamassu has horns sculpted onto his hat. The spiraly things.

Complete BS. If an artist takes inspiration from another artists vision it is not exactly plagiarism. So apparently no other sculptor in the world is allowed to sculpt in a style similar to GW designs. If this were the comics industry then Jim Lee needs to sue everyone. Not to mention King Kirby. It looks vastly different to me, anyway. Artists be warned...you are not allowed to express yourselves in a similar way to the how GW artists express themselves. I think we should arrange a massive 90 day boycott of GW products sold from GW sources. That should humble those bloated fat bastards.