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So, you're not so much upset about the cost of the models, which is fair, but about your desire to have more of them, and a company that has produced a game that entices this desire?

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this before, but has anyone taken a look at what the new Finecast unit will cost?

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303713

Yup. $105 USD. Yeesh.

carlosthecraven wrote:Hi

I posted this in a local forum some time back as part of a discussion on GW's price increase. I think it applies here

<Model to model comparison removed>

Cheers,
Nate

Well Nate, you've managed to make the point, yet again, that no one was really disputing: that on a model-per model basis, PP is roughly as expensive as GW.

As Carmachu mentions above (among many others); context matters.

Delephont wrote:Ok, maybe it's just me, in fact no, it probably is just me....but I'm confused.

<snip >

So my question to the RETAILERS, are you guys in support of GW or not?

If you guys ARE in support of GW, then come out and say it, and help the community understand the latest changes....my god, you've got customers threatening to walk away, and while they may still shop at your stores, they won't be buying your main line product, so rather then posting these tangential threads that ultimately lead to nothing, just pitch in and ease the strain.

If on the other hand you DON'T support GW actions, then, like Wayland Games, grow a pair and make a statement. How many have gotten behind Wayland and decided to do something? or are you casually sitting back to see how Wayland get's on, and depending on how bad they are shafted (or not) then you might act....

Enquiring minds want to know.

This is not to cast aspersions on the retailers posting in this thread, but when they are saying that GW is giving them...

monthly support to run painting classes and events, free racking worth hundreds of dollars, prizes for tournaments, advance models either free or at a nominal price. The independent GT system they built the last two years gave out a huge amount of support in terms of scenery and prize support. When I've approached them about extra support for running more events, I've had no trouble working with them. And the #1 support, they immediately ship me replacements for any damages or shortages, and I can fix a customers problem by handing them a new kit.

It's not exactly appropriate to cast them as disinterested parties.

Remember, the entire justification of some of GW's policies (explicitly the region based limitations) is to protect brick and mortar stores... like the ones run by the guys in this thread. I'm not saying that they are shills for GW, but the explicit fact is that GW is literally putting money in their businesses. They have a fundamentally different view on the situation, not because they are bad people, but because they have a financial interest in GW doing well, and people not abandoning it. I'm not saying "ignore these guys", but understand their position in context.

Personally, the fact that GW is very good with some independent retailers is interesting to me, but, honestly, doesn't really do much to sway my thoughts on GW one way or the other (and even if it did, their behavior has been markedly different towards other independents).

Sergeant Horse wrote:Ok, so it's a courtesy thing. You are aware however that a business is not required to tell you all the inner workings. And is less likely able to since it's a public ally traded company

This argument (which has also been made several times) is, frankly, quite odd, as if the perception of the people making a product ought not to have any bearing on the decision to purchase it. If I'm choosing between Coke and Pepsi, I can base my decision on which I like better, or, for example I can choose which took the side I like best in the Arab-Israel boycott. Or, how about if I look for the Union label? How about Fair Trade? Ethical Investing? What if I want to Buy Local?

The fact is that intangibles are very rarely absent from consumers' decisions, and it's hard to see why they should not be considered here.

infinite_array wrote:

Yup. $105 USD. Yeesh.

Edit: @ Buzzsaw: Your post brings up a good point.

I do think its admirable that GWs stepping up to help out all the LGSs out there. That said, I don't think their method of helping them is going to be effective in the long run.

People are buying on the 'net, by and large, because there either isn't an LGS near them (and run games out of a club or someone's living space) or because they don't see the value of GWs product at their MSRP. Rather than change the MSRP to capture more demand, they've tried to mitigate the consumer's option to buy at a lower price. The problem then becomes two-fold:

1.) As a consumer, not being able to buy first-hand at a discount does nothing to mitigate my ability to buy second-hand at a discount. You've made it mildly harder for people to buy below MSRP, but they've got very little recourse against eBay/bartertown. All you've done is drive consumers out of the market or to a different discount supply.

2.) Even if they could, in theory, totally eliminate discount suppliers in the Souther Hemisphere - I don't think they'd get a 1:1 conversion rate of people-who-bought-from-Maelstorm/Wayland/etc to people-who-buy-from-GW/LGS @ MSRP.

Personally, I would be much more inclined to buy GWs product at The Warstore's prices than my LGS's prices. However, since I'm not a complete cad and I don't want to bone over my LGS (especially since if I play WFB, I play there), I just don't buy GW product.

I think my Hordes army was around 200$ for what is equivalent to ~35 points in the new system. My Skaven army is 800$ (it's 1998 points, this isn't a giant collection, it's one army), and my Dark Eldar started at around 550$(same thing, one army) before I started buying extra kits to make conversions. I was eyeballing a 300pt Aleph force that will be around 180$. Most decent IG lists have at least 250$ in chimeras. These prices aren't even within striking distance of each other, GW armies are very expensive. A cheap (read: bad) GW list might come close to an expensive iteration of a PP list but that's not really apples to apples.

I want to know how you spent 800 dollars on skaven and only got to 1998 points... My skaven army was like 400-500 and I can field almost 5000

Sergeant Horse wrote:As regards my castle of illusions on infinity. I stock it, it's a great game. I wonder is Navarro a designer for it if so, then I'd like to reiterate that the translatio are extremely ambiguous sometimes, not a bitch about it, consider it constructive criticism. I find a lot of people on dakka don't know the difference.

Like you I'm simply a fan of the minis ... As for constructive VS Bitch I can see the diference but Inside the context of this thread the comment posted didnt seem aiming at constructive.

Sergeant Horse wrote:
But also still, if you pay $15 or so, maybe it's more I'll know when I get to work, for a Cateran....that's still a bit expensive. Compare it to Malifaux where the majority of models fall in the $7.50-$9 range

And if you compare it with Mcvey its still unexpensive... there will always be cheaper as well as more expensive miniatures but inside the 28mm SKIRMISH style of games these diferences are not that big or noticeable in most cases.

Buzzsaw wrote:

This is not to cast aspersions on the retailers posting in this thread, but when they are saying that GW is giving them...

monthly support to run painting classes and events, free racking worth hundreds of dollars, prizes for tournaments, advance models either free or at a nominal price. The independent GT system they built the last two years gave out a huge amount of support in terms of scenery and prize support. When I've approached them about extra support for running more events, I've had no trouble working with them. And the #1 support, they immediately ship me replacements for any damages or shortages, and I can fix a customers problem by handing them a new kit.

It's not exactly appropriate to cast them as disinterested parties.

Remember, the entire justification of some of GW's policies (explicitly the region based limitations) is to protect brick and mortar stores... like the ones run by the guys in this thread. I'm not saying that they are shills for GW, but the explicit fact is that GW is literally putting money in their businesses. They have a fundamentally different view on the situation, not because they are bad people, but because they have a financial interest in GW doing well, and people not abandoning it. I'm not saying "ignore these guys", but understand their position in context.

Personally, the fact that GW is very good with some independent retailers is interesting to me, but, honestly, doesn't really do much to sway my thoughts on GW one way or the other (and even if it did, their behavior has been markedly different towards other independents).

Sergeant Horse wrote:Ok, so it's a courtesy thing. You are aware however that a business is not required to tell you all the inner workings. And is less likely able to since it's a public ally traded company

This argument (which has also been made several times) is, frankly, quite odd, as if the perception of the people making a product ought not to have any bearing on the decision to purchase it. If I'm choosing between Coke and Pepsi, I can base my decision on which I like better, or, for example I can choose which took the side I like best in the Arab-Israel boycott. Or, how about if I look for the Union label? How about Fair Trade? Ethical Investing? What if I want to Buy Local?

The fact is that intangibles are very rarely absent from consumers' decisions, and it's hard to see why they should not be considered here.

Good points, as any business, it is in our interest if people keep playing. However, its not that determental as the majority who change, will change to another system, usually that the stores supplies. I wouldn't say they are LITERALLY putting money in my pocket (I'd rather they did tbh, could use it) , but they are helpful in giving B&M stores the best possible chance to set up and promote the game, which is good business sense on their part, after that, its up to us to provide the good atmosphere and draw for customers. My original reason for posting this was not to defend anyone or stop someone from leaving the game...why would I bother since I know maybe 20 people on the forums personally I did however, want to understand some of the reasons people have such hate fr one company over the other so that I can have dialogue with my customers and better direct them. I'm glad you are pointing out certain intangible assets that the companies you like offer you, thats a great reason to lean one way or the other, though I don't see how a couple of them are relevant to mini gaming What I wanted to get across though, and probably didn;t do it very well, is, as a Publicly Traded Company, any info you need, SHOULD be out there already, so there's not going to be a headman giving news, as they release reports intermtently

carlosthecraven wrote:Throw in the value pricing factor of $34.99 for an Ironclad and $49.99 for Ol'rowdy the character Ironclad, and you can see that PP is basing price on unit value to the player, not the cost of production.

Having just purchased old Rowdy, I'd say that cost of production would probably impact the cost somewhat but probably not at the 50% mark. Rowdy is quite a bit more complex than the standard Ironclad. Labor costs to produce would definitely be higher due to the additional pieces.

The metal Ironclad comes in the following pieces (6 cast pieces):
- Head
- Body
- Boiler
- Legs
- Right Arm
- Left Arm

Old Rowdy comes in the following pices (13 cast pieces):
- Head
- Body
- Frontal armor
- Boiler
- Left Shoulder
- Right Shoulder
- Right Arm
- Left Arm
- Hips
- Left Leg
- Right Leg
- Knee Plates / Stack sprue x2

It is a significantly more detailed and complicated kit.

For reference: the plastic ironclad comes in the following pieces (10):
- Head
- Body
- Boiler
- Left Arm
- Right Arm
- Left Hand
- Right Hand
- Hips
- Left Leg
- Right Leg

Redbeard wrote:I am so sick of people complaining about how unfair prices are without ANY data backing up why they believe these prices are unfair.

Sculptors need to eat. Moldmakers need to eat. Plastic costs money. Retooling all your molds to handle 'finecast' whatevers takes money. Distribution lines cost money.

I wish, just once, they'd break all this down and shut people up. But I understand why they don't - you ever try getting Ford to explain how they price their cars or Apple to explain how they price their iPads?

Maybe there is a reason that all the miniature companies charge roughly similar prices. Go check out the coolminiornot site. There are some cheaper lines - that are generally less detailed, and there are more expensive lines.

Here are a few links:

Sedition Wars, 1 32mm figure, $23.

Hasslefree, 1 28mm figure, $9

Freebooter minis: 1 32mm figure, $19.50

Micro Art Studio; 1 28mm figure, $16

Studio McVey - 1 figure, $23

Wyrd miniatures - 1 figure, $9

Sodapop Miniatures - 1 figure, $18

Hell Dorado - 1 figure, $11

Avatars of War - 1 model, $16

Kabuki models, 1 figure, $20

Grindhouse Games, 1 figure, $12.50

Games Workshop - 1 model, $17


Really, they're not out of line for the industry. Click all those links above, I picked as close to the same size models as I could find relatively quickly. Look at the detail levels. Look at the size of the models.

"But I shouldn't have to pay so much for a toy soldier". Why not? Sculptors need to eat too. Materials cost money, distribution chains cost money. It's not like GW (or PP for that matter) are out there charging twice what anyone else is charging.

This IS the fair price for nicely sculpted miniatures.

Dear lord man, have you not read the previous posts?

I believe the key here is quantity. All of those companies that you have cited do not encourage you to purchase mutliples of those same miniatures in order to "enjoy" them as intended. Yes, you can buy a single Space Marine, paint it, base it and display it in your cabinet.....but really, that is not the primary function of that object as set out by its creators.

All of the companies above realise, you will most likely buy a single copy of each of their range (at the most, you might buy two!) but that's it....they may never see you or your money again after that.....GW, knows full well, you will come back to them again and again, so in theory, because of the design of their games and their product marketing strategy, they will (like all the others) pay their sculptors, pay their packers, pay for all the other operational costs of running their business, but they will recover those costs a hell of a lot quicker because of their volume sales.....due to this, they could drop their prices, and still make a very tidy profit

I know I'm saying all of this without the facts.....but, by using pure logic, if all of those other niche companies can survive on less unit sales, then GW hould have no problem....

Now before you ram that pitch fork up my devils alley-way, I fully understand that GW is a company, aimed at making a profit and generating a RoI for its share-holders......but, as a consumer, why should I care about that? just like GW has an agenda, so do I, I want to get the best value for money, but more importantly, I want to "feel" as though I'm getting value for money, and I want to feel like I'm a valued aspect of their success.....sometimes saying a "please" and "thank you" can go a long way, especially if stated before you take me down a back alley and introduced me to Mr. Tom.

Delephont wrote:

Redbeard wrote: I want to "feel" as though I'm getting value for money, and I want to feel like I'm a valued aspect of their success.....sometimes saying a "please" and "thank you" can go a long way, especially if stated before you take me down a back alley and introduced me to Mr. Tom.

this here I think is the crux of he issue, the courtesy. I think this would not have exploded as much if someone DID come out and say "thanks for the support (not that I think they will). Its actually funny, I got this the other day in my own store. We recently begun carrying Magic, and all my Tabletop gamers began freaking out, until eventually someone told me that they just wanted to be told that "David still loves them" and that I wasn't dropping them for Magic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NAVARRO wrote:

Sergeant Horse wrote:As regards my castle of illusions on infinity. I stock it, it's a great game. I wonder is Navarro a designer for it if so, then I'd like to reiterate that the translatio are extremely ambiguous sometimes, not a bitch about it, consider it constructive criticism. I find a lot of people on dakka don't know the difference.

Like you I'm simply a fan of the minis ... As for constructive VS Bitch I can see the diference but Inside the context of this thread the comment posted didnt seem aiming at constructive.

Sergeant Horse wrote:
But also still, if you pay $15 or so, maybe it's more I'll know when I get to work, for a Cateran....that's still a bit expensive. Compare it to Malifaux where the majority of models fall in the $7.50-$9 range

And if you compare it with Mcvey its still unexpensive... there will always be cheaper as well as more expensive miniatures but inside the 28mm SKIRMISH style of games these diferences are not that big or noticeable in most cases.

It was a reply to another comment where the person asked if GW would be worth it if their books were clear and unambiguous like Warmachine (which very much is) and Infinity (which, tbh I don't think it is)


See, there's also the other issue. People are comparing 40k & Fantasy, large scale war games, to PP, Infinity etc, which are all SKIRMISH games. By the very nature of the game design, your going to need more models. Now is this a ploy to sell more? Possibly, if so, its a good one. But also look at the fact that there is no way a skirmish game will last as long as a large scale wargame. Now you might play 4 skirmish games in the time that you play one big one, but who would do that without getting bored or wanting to switch to another skirmish game for variety. These are also other intangibles your going to have to add btw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sigh, now I get to go to work .........wooo

carlosthecraven wrote:So, in summary - GW is superior in providing low cost troops, and everything else is basically a draw, with slight edges going one way or the other on a case by case comparison.

Cheers,
Nate

I'm not going to get into the nitty-gritty of 'but fewer models means cheaper armies/hobby' because once you start building lists, especially competitive lists, the price advantage of PP is obvious.

2 quick things however: 1st, What the unit:unit comparison largely misses is that in WM/H, a different warlock/warcaster will completely change a 'group of models' playstyle, such that it essentially becomes a different list.

2nd, there is almost no unit duplication in WM/H. In 40k, spam is largely regarded as the easiest way to a competitive list. That doesn't really work in WM/H. This is significant because when you invest in a warjack/warbeast, which is probably the single most expensive piece(s) in your army list, similar in-faction chassis patterns plus the ease of procuring bits from PP plus magnetization means that a regular plastic warjack kit will give you 4 or more different models. 2 Cygnar Plastic Warjacks for $30 each plus Siege for $15 ish plus eStryker for $15 ish will give you two distinct lists (Siege + Defender/Cyclone, eStryker + Ironclad/Ol' Rowdy) for the same price as 1 list plus 1 extra warcaster model and a handful of bits and magnets. Those two lists will play completely differently, akin to blob platoon IG versus mechvet IG.

That represents huge potential for cost savings (yes, potential, if a collector goes out and buys one of everything 'just to have' then that potential is wasted) and a customizability in game design philosophy that simply isn't exhibited by GW. A WM/H player can change an army simply by swapping warcaster/warlock and arms/heads on a warjack model. A 40k player can change an army by... buying a new army.

This value isn't really apparent in the cavalry models specifically, but it's an inherent bonus in the game system that can't really be glossed over in debates over which hobby costs more.

Buzzsaw wrote:This is not to cast aspersions on the retailers posting in this thread, but when they are saying that GW is giving them...

monthly support to run painting classes and events, free racking worth hundreds of dollars, prizes for tournaments, advance models either free or at a nominal price. The independent GT system they built the last two years gave out a huge amount of support in terms of scenery and prize support. When I've approached them about extra support for running more events, I've had no trouble working with them. And the #1 support, they immediately ship me replacements for any damages or shortages, and I can fix a customers problem by handing them a new kit.

It's not exactly appropriate to cast them as disinterested parties.

Remember, the entire justification of some of GW's policies (explicitly the region based limitations) is to protect brick and mortar stores... like the ones run by the guys in this thread. I'm not saying that they are shills for GW, but the explicit fact is that GW is literally putting money in their businesses. They have a fundamentally different view on the situation, not because they are bad people, but because they have a financial interest in GW doing well, and people not abandoning it. I'm not saying "ignore these guys", but understand their position in context.

Well of course we aren't 'disinterested parties'. Any store you could describe that way it probably out of business soon. Owning a games store means you have to as passionate about gaming as your customers, and probably more so.

No one's going to claim a store owner is 'disinterested'. And no gamer is unbiased. You all have favorite games, and your arguements will all be biased based on what you like. That has to be an accepted fact in any discussion. No one on these boards is 'disinterested.)

Glad to see me and Sgt. Horse aren't quite in the Shill catagory, and you don't consider us 'bad people'.)

You do understand that if a customer changes from GW to Privateer, I don't loose their business? In fact, I can make more, because I get 5% more discount on PP products than GW. And if 20 ex GW gamers all switch over to Warmahordes, I can reap huge benefits from 20 people all starting new armies. I have a financial interest in selling games to gamers, not necessarily in selling any one companies games. My shop carries every model in production/distribution from GW, Privateer, and Flames of War. We run tournaments and leagues for all three. I really don't care what game anyone plays, as long as they keep coming in to game.

My point about GW supporting stores was simply to illustrate that what I thought was an interesting point about customer interaction. Stores are as much customers of PP as gamers are, just one step above in the chain. PP seems to treat gamers better, but in my experience GW treats stores a lot better.

awww I wanted to be a schill.......

I thought you were going to work? We must not keep the gamers waiting

I know...........damn gamers. I'll just troll the site from my phone

PP is overpriced as bad as GW is.

People don't care as much about prices then more so a reason to rage at GW.

I like all the, im not spending that much money, i quit im gonna go spend close the the same playing PP!

People Rationalize PP..

It cost more per model technically, BUT YOU DONT NEED AS MANY TO PLAY!!!

GalaxyGames wrote:People do not complain about Privateer because privateer respects its consumer base with constant dialogue and respect. They allowed players to shape their rules, voice their oppinions and just overall enjoy the game and hobby. Privateer is coming off as a friend. GW rubs off in a different way.

They make army books optional, the models hold more game play value than 40k models do. Every model feels like it has more 'worth' for its contributory factors for the game.

These are just many reasons why privateer customer respect the company and their prices. Not saying that PP is any cheaper because they aren't. But the biggest point is PP players do not complain (as much) or if at all and that is really saying something about consumer attitudes for a company.

Its like the apple model. High prices, but respect to their fans -- people will pay and follow.

All the warm and fuzziness about communication is fine and all, but at the end of the day if PP's prices are comparable to GW then the OP has a point. Its not being an apologist either. I don't play PP games so i'm not aware of their prices, i'm going by the OP's post but if what he's saying is true then I really have to wonder if all it takes to placate people is a bit of dialogue about price increases then thats actually kinda sad, at least in regards to the feet stompers out there.

misfit wrote:

GalaxyGames wrote:People do not complain about Privateer because privateer respects its consumer base with constant dialogue and respect. They allowed players to shape their rules, voice their oppinions and just overall enjoy the game and hobby. Privateer is coming off as a friend. GW rubs off in a different way.

They make army books optional, the models hold more game play value than 40k models do. Every model feels like it has more 'worth' for its contributory factors for the game.

These are just many reasons why privateer customer respect the company and their prices. Not saying that PP is any cheaper because they aren't. But the biggest point is PP players do not complain (as much) or if at all and that is really saying something about consumer attitudes for a company.

Its like the apple model. High prices, but respect to their fans -- people will pay and follow.

All the warm and fuzziness about communication is fine and all, but at the end of the day if PP's prices are comparable to GW then the OP has a point. Its not being an apologist either. I don't play PP games so i'm not aware of their prices, i'm going by the OP's post but if what he's saying is true then I really have to wonder if all it takes to placate people is a bit of dialogue about price increases then thats actually kinda sad, at least in regards to the feet stompers out there.

But here's the problem. When you look at both sets of models OUTSIDE OF THEIR GAMES, then yes, they both seem to be overpriced. But now look at the systems that the models are in. In Warmachine, that unit is a single purchase. Once. Done. There's no reason to get anything else. In Warhammer, however, a unit of 5 cavalry may not be enough. So you may have to buy more.

Spyder68 wrote:
I like all the, im not spending that much money, i quit im gonna go spend close the the same playing PP!

I think the point is that if you want to game and if two companies are gonna charge you near the same but one regulalry treats you like S%!t and the other doesn't...

If you want to pay increasing costs to be treated like s%!t then go for it. Others prefer an alternative...

Delephont wrote:
Dear lord man, have you not read the previous posts?

I believe the key here is quantity. All of those companies that you have cited do not encourage you to purchase mutliples of those same miniatures in order to "enjoy" them as intended. Yes, you can buy a single Space Marine, paint it, base it and display it in your cabinet.....but really, that is not the primary function of that object as set out by its creators.

I did read the previous posts. In short, you're saying that you believe the price of the models is fair, and GW is evil because they make you want to buy more of their things than you are financially able to justify buying? I don't know, sounds to me like selling things at a fair price and creating a demand for them is what businesses should strive to do.

All of the companies above realise, you will most likely buy a single copy of each of their range (at the most, you might buy two!) but that's it....they may never see you or your money again after that.....GW, knows full well, you will come back to them again and again, so in theory, because of the design of their games and their product marketing strategy, they will (like all the others) pay their sculptors, pay their packers, pay for all the other operational costs of running their business, but they will recover those costs a hell of a lot quicker because of their volume sales.....due to this, they could drop their prices, and still make a very tidy profit

That makes a couple of key assumptions. One, that you will buy multiples of everything. You won't. The GW model I linked to in my analysis above was a special character for one specific army. People are no more going to buy a dozen of that than they are of any of the other companies models. And look, his price was right in-line with all the other company's products.

Second, if you look at the per-model cost for the models you need a lot of, they're a lot cheaper. A tactical squad breaks down to $4/model, a lot cheaper than the one-of models that you would buy just to have one. So they are passing the savings along based on expected volume sales. But they clearly don't expect volume sales on everything. Tactical marines - lots of people need those. Dreadknights... not so much.

... but more importantly, I want to "feel" as though I'm getting value for money, and I want to feel like I'm a valued aspect of their success.....sometimes saying a "please" and "thank you" can go a long way,...

And what exactly would make you feel all warm and snuggly?

Let's assume, just pretend for a second, that GW is run by people who understand their line of business, and who understand:

a) that rising prices makes it harder to attract and retain customers
and
b) that not remaining profitable makes it harder to stay in business at all and retain any customers.

Let's pretend that these annual price rises might actually have something to do with worldwide business conditions. That the cost of living has gone up, and therefore they need to pay their employees a bit more, they need to ensure that their trade sales accounts can make a little more. And that the cost of raw materials has gone up, and so they actually need to charge more to cover that.

In other words, lets pretend that price increases are inevitable. My gasoline costs more, my eggs cost more, my milk costs more, my beef costs more, I saw a newspaper article this morning that stated that my electrical company is going to be charing more. And my toy soldiers are going to cost a bit more too. How would you announce this in such a way that your customers felt all warm and snuggly about it?

Really? This is an international company we're talking about. I've seen enough gaming companies that tried to be best friends with their customers and went under. TSR - the original D&D company - went bankrupt because it didn't seem to understand the importance of remaining profitable. I'd rather they rise prices and remain in business than go under.

Afterall, we've already established that they're charging a fair market price for their goods. All you're upset about is that they make you want to buy more of them.

misfit wrote:I really have to wonder if all it takes to placate people is a bit of dialogue about price increases then thats actually kinda sad, at least in regards to the feet stompers out there.

You're missing most of the point. The PP-gamer/customer relationship has a lot of back-and-forth with interactive PP employees and game developers. It's easy to get official clarification on anything, including the game and game rules and release schedule and pending product. There is a culture of openness that makes their customers more receptive to "bad news".

The Studio McVey models featured above cost £12 in the UK. They are part of the limited edition collector's range. The standard models, which are metal, are £6 or £6.50.

infinite_array wrote:

But here's the problem. When you look at both sets of models OUTSIDE OF THEIR GAMES, then yes, they both seem to be overpriced. But now look at the systems that the models are in. In Warmachine, that unit is a single purchase. Once. Done. There's no reason to get anything else. In Warhammer, however, a unit of 5 cavalry may not be enough. So you may have to buy more.

Based off the Mk.2 model, yes. If you started with PP, it was box of guys, then 1-2 blisters to roll up more. Variable units is not a bad thing either. Coming back to game, it annoyed me more than anything that I now have to run Max or Min... nothing in between.

Redbeard wrote:
I did read the previous posts. In short, you're saying that you believe the price of the models is fair, and GW is evil because they make you want to buy more of their things than you are financially able to justify buying? I don't know, sounds to me like selling things at a fair price and creating a demand for them is what businesses should strive to do.

Evil is such an emotive term to use, especially in this context. No one is evil, like you said, it's business.

We all appreciate that baby Jervis has to eat, but, we're examining a snap shot of the overall GW customer / company relationship here.

No offence to the OP, but these threads, tend to over simplify the situation. Others have posted very good reasons why the cost of the PP miniatures are "acceptable" when to compared to GW, and the truth lies in the game more than the individual prices of the miniatures.....but then, I don't even think the year on year price hike is the main issue.....we best not forget the sales restrictions, we should not forget the metal to resin price hike....I mean, look at that, think about it! You argue that it costs money to re-engineer the moulds to take resin (as if GW has re-engineered anything!) but, who asked them to do it? Was there a mass complaint about metal? I mean, from a customer point of view its done nothing for me but increase the price of the product...wow....was it a benefit to GW, well, if they were complaining that the price of metal is going up therefore they have turned to resin, then one can only assume they are screwing their customer base....cheaper material, higher price...no justification.

Redbeard wrote: That makes a couple of key assumptions. One, that you will buy multiples of everything. You won't. The GW model I linked to in my analysis above was a special character for one specific army. People are no more going to buy a dozen of that than they are of any of the other companies models. And look, his price was right in-line with all the other company's products.

Second, if you look at the per-model cost for the models you need a lot of, they're a lot cheaper. A tactical squad breaks down to $4/model, a lot cheaper than the one-of models that you would buy just to have one. So they are passing the savings along based on expected volume sales. But they clearly don't expect volume sales on everything. Tactical marines - lots of people need those. Dreadknights... not so much.

That may be true for that particular miniature, but again, you need to compare the "worth" of that miniature in its army setting, within its game setting.....you can't just compare one lump of metal against another like that, unless this discussion is aimed at painters and collectors (as NAVARRO stated in one of his posts earlier). Most of the miniatures you have compared the GW miniature to, are considered either generic one off gaming pieces, specific to no particular game or they are intended for painters and collectors.....in terms of "intended usage" theres no real comparrison....almost like comparing a Toyota Yaris to a F1 race car...the ones that do form part of a game (Wyrd and Grind House) actually come in cheaper! bear in mind that GW prices are also about to go up....so GW have priced their miniatures alongside the Boutique miniatures.....nice, they obviously think quite highly of their product...

Redbeard wrote: And what exactly would make you feel all warm and snuggly?

Let's assume, just pretend for a second, that GW is run by people who understand their line of business, and who understand:

a) that rising prices makes it harder to attract and retain customers
and
b) that not remaining profitable makes it harder to stay in business at all and retain any customers.

Let's pretend that these annual price rises might actually have something to do with worldwide business conditions. That the cost of living has gone up, and therefore they need to pay their employees a bit more, they need to ensure that their trade sales accounts can make a little more. And that the cost of raw materials has gone up, and so they actually need to charge more to cover that.

In other words, lets pretend that price increases are inevitable. My gasoline costs more, my eggs cost more, my milk costs more, my beef costs more, I saw a newspaper article this morning that stated that my electrical company is going to be charing more. And my toy soldiers are going to cost a bit more too. How would you announce this in such a way that your customers felt all warm and snuggly about it?

Really? This is an international company we're talking about. I've seen enough gaming companies that tried to be best friends with their customers and went under. TSR - the original D&D company - went bankrupt because it didn't seem to understand the importance of remaining profitable. I'd rather they rise prices and remain in business than go under.

Afterall, we've already established that they're charging a fair market price for their goods. All you're upset about is that they make you want to buy more of them.

Well, yes, let's pretend that's true......first, a bit of my background. I work as a Designer for a supplier company to Automotive OEMs. We supply wiring systems for all types of car, from luxury Aston Martins to one off race vehicles....LM cars, Touring cars, you name it....the price of copper goes up each year, the cost of living goes up, etc etc....how long would we stay in business if we just hiked the price to our customers? What do you think our competition would do? What do you think our OEM customers demand of us?

Let me answer that.

1) We have to communicate our price rises, and explain very clearly why that is happening, if we don't, we could realistically find our selves "desourced" and off the project!

2) In our industry, a selling point is price reductions year on year...we have to find ways to make a great product, but cheaper...we use techniques such as LEAN, for example, to reduce the cost of producing our products, removing waste from our processes and thereby offering the customer a price competitive product that beats our competitors....but guess what, the competition is doing this just as well as us....

3) Our customers demand we reduce our prices year on year....the market demands that of us....simple as that. We are market driven. We buck the market, it kicks us out.....thats market power!

So yes, every industry is under the same pressure, but the only difference between GW and my company, is that GW has a bunch of flowers for customers, rather than hard nose business men, who will, if you put a foot wrong turn their backs on you and lets you sink.

GW does what it does because it can.....from a business point of view, good luck to them, if my company could do business like that I'm sure we would. However, from a customer point of view, I feel inclined to say "stuff you GW" and support the growth of competition.

In terms of feeling "cozy"...it's more to do with GW taking it's customers seriously, and respecting that without them they are nothing. Currently, GW comes across as arrogant and spoilt, and gives the impression that they feel they are insulated from their own target market.....maybe for you this is the truth.

For me, I will support a company that respects me as a customer, and if that company is PP then yes, I will pay the same money as I would have payed GW for the same or less of a product...right now, I look at the PP line of games and given what I need to invest and the PR the company has built up I have no problem spending the money with them.

I hope that has made my stance clear.....because I'm never going to type that stuff again.....ever!

That may be true for that particular miniature, but again, you need to compare the "worth" of that miniature in its army setting, within its game setting.....you can't just compare one lump of metal against another like that, unless this discussion is aimed at painters and collectors

Exactly. I will pay nothing for a GW Ogryn. Nothing. Not even a dollar, even though this model is "worth" $20 or so retail.

I would be willing to pay $40 for a PP Spriggan Warjack, even though this model is "worth" $30 retail, simply because I want to play a game with this model.

Delephont wrote:....we best not forget the sales restrictions

I really don't understand the international laws or intricacies enough to follow the restriction topic. To me, Mark Wells put a letter out on Facebook saying that they needed to limit Eureopean sales to Australia because they needed to support the Australian infrastructure in Australian dollars. Given that I don't have any data, I'm fairly willing to believe that, because it has a certain logic to it.

, we should not forget the metal to resin price hike....I mean, look at that, think about it! You argue that it costs money to re-engineer the moulds to take resin (as if GW has re-engineered anything!) but, who asked them to do it? Was there a mass complaint about metal? I mean, from a customer point of view its done nothing for me but increase the price of the product...wow....was it a benefit to GW, well, if they were complaining that the price of metal is going up therefore they have turned to resin, then one can only assume they are screwing their customer base....cheaper material, higher price...no justification.

Having seen the picture of the new finecast sprue, yes, it's obvious that they re-engineered these molds to work with the new material. Who asked them to? I would expect that it was forward-thinking on their part. Metal prices have been rising a lot in recent years. For them to move out of metal may not have lowered our prices, but it may not have raised them as much as they'd need to be raised otherwise.

There has always been a balance between what models they choose to produce in what material. Historically, plastic is used for larger pieces, where the cost of materials, or weight, are factors. And plastic is used where they expect more mass sales. Metal has been used where they expect fewer sales. The reason for that is that the initial cost for metal molds is lower than that for plastic, so to commit to a plastic mold is more of a commitment upfront. They've been pretty good at knowing where to make the split, with a few notable exceptions. One of these, I think, was the Bloodcrushers. Initially, they released them in metal. I don't think they expected people to want to field 16, or 24 of them. But, in a nod to old-school chaos rules, the 40k unit sizes for the elite section were all based on the favoured numbers of the gods, so khorne got 8 bloodcrushers as a unit size, and people did just that. A year or so later, they redid the models in plastic. That's an awful fast turn around. I think the Bloodcrushers were a tricky case. They were not quite as big as a vehicle, but clearly use a lot of metal. When they realized they were hitting enough volume on them to justify the plastic mold, they redid them, and they're a lot cheaper in plastic now, they actually did pass the savings on to us. Some people forget (or fail to notice) when that sort of thing happens.

....so GW have priced their miniatures alongside the Boutique miniatures.....nice, they obviously think quite highly of their product...

Well, yes, but so do I. I'm both a gamer and a painter. I buy boutique minis to paint. I also buy GW models to paint, but I game with them too. As a gamer, I recognize that there are cheaper lines out there, but as a painter, I'm not interested in their quality level. I've been painting minis for 30 years. I started playing GW games seven years ago. I avoided GW for a long time, not because of price, but because their models looked static and cartoony. In the late 80s and early 90s, GW quality was awful compared to Ral Partha or even Grenadier. That's no longer the case. GWs stuff is among the best. Of the lines I look at, only Freebooter produces more consistently good models, in my opinion.

Well, yes, let's pretend that's true......first, a bit of my background. I work as a Designer for a supplier company to Automotive OEMs. We supply wiring systems for all types of car, from luxury Aston Martins to one off race vehicles....LM cars, Touring cars, you name it....the price of copper goes up each year, the cost of living goes up, etc etc....how long would we stay in business if we just hiked the price to our customers? What do you think our competition would do? What do you think our OEM customers demand of us?

Yeah, my brother's father-in-law works in that industry too. Mandated 5% price reductions every year as part of the contract and all.

But you're supplying an industry, not consumers. Consumer sales and industrial sales are not the same at all. When the price of gasoline goes up, do the trucking companies eat it, or do they pass that along to the consumers in the form of higher prices on everything? If the price of copper doubles, and you've got a contract that says you have to reduce your price every year, you have to eat that loss or you lose the contract. I don't know how many contracts you have, but there aren't that many automotive companies out there. Losing one customer may well be 25% of your base. Selling to end-level consumers is nothing like that. One customer leaves, there are ten thousand (or more) remaining. You cannot compare hobbies like crashing Ferraris with mini wargaming, but you also cannot compare consumer sales with industrial sales. They're just different animals.

GW does what it does because it can.....from a business point of view, good luck to them, if my company could do business like that I'm sure we would. However, from a customer point of view, I feel inclined to say "stuff you GW" and support the growth of competition.

That is, of course, your choice. They don't make you feel good. I, however, look at the competition and I don't see a company trying to screw me over, I see a company trying to exist in an increasingly difficult economy, in a niche market. I don't leap to the conclusion that they're incompetent or worse, I look for data. I find rising prices for metal, for plastic. I see similar price increases in every aspect of my daily life. And I realize that ComEd isn't apologizing to me for raising the price of my electricity and BP isn't bending over backwards to justify the higher price of gas, and I have no expectation that GW should either. They're not my friend, they're a company. They're not cheating me, they're supplying a product at market standard prices. I do not feel taken advantage of, not because I am made of money and able to weather the increase in prices, but because I have done the research to determine why the prices must be raised for them to stay in business. And I've watched other gaming companies that don't make such decisions go under.

mikhaila wrote:

You do understand that if a customer changes from GW to Privateer, I don't loose their business? In fact, I can make more, because I get 5% more discount on PP products than GW. And if 20 ex GW gamers all switch over to Warmahordes, I can reap huge benefits from 20 people all starting new armies. I have a financial interest in selling games to gamers, not necessarily in selling any one companies games. My shop carries every model in production/distribution from GW, Privateer, and Flames of War. We run tournaments and leagues for all three. I really don't care what game anyone plays, as long as they keep coming in to game.

Teh cavet of course, is if and only if, they buy it from the store. Folks can find warmahordes anywhere with ease. No barriers that GW puts in the way.

My point about GW supporting stores was simply to illustrate that what I thought was an interesting point about customer interaction. Stores are as much customers of PP as gamers are, just one step above in the chain. PP seems to treat gamers better, but in my experience GW treats stores a lot better.

PP is about 10 years behind GW as far as interaction with stores. Press gangers remind me of the old GW outrider program. Are you familiar with it, and have interacted with it in days of old?

sourclams wrote:

That may be true for that particular miniature, but again, you need to compare the "worth" of that miniature in its army setting, within its game setting.....you can't just compare one lump of metal against another like that, unless this discussion is aimed at painters and collectors

Exactly. I will pay nothing for a GW Ogryn. Nothing. Not even a dollar, even though this model is "worth" $20 or so retail.

I would be willing to pay $40 for a PP Spriggan Warjack, even though this model is "worth" $30 retail, simply because I want to play a game with this model.

This is one of the few posts in this thread with any real understanding of "value."

Things are worth what somebody will pay. Enough people like Vampire Counts to sell those blood knights, and enough people like Khador to sell those whatevers.

To me, infinity models are not worth anything, because nobody plays the game. Leman Russes are woth next to nothing, because I already own 12.