Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

bolo wrote:

Surtur wrote:I think fully kitted they're ~500 points and damn hard to kill, hurt even worse on the charge.

So that takes them up to being only 20% of an army. And still vulnerable to a one-spell 'sudden death' moment. And still $66.00 more expensive than the Destors.

Their stats are actually quite insane so those spells are rather ineffective and you can make your vamp lord be able to res them IIRC. I'll have to nab my friends book and double check that last one.

Surtur wrote:you can make your vamp lord be able to res them IIRC. I'll have to nab my friends book and double check that last one.

Don't bother, I have it here.

Invocation of Nehek:

"Target one of your own Undead units or characters within 18". The target unit regains D6 Wounds worth of models. Units with the Vampire or Ethereal rule, and non-infantry units, are harder to heal and only ever regain a single Wound."

So an expensive character can make them have one more wound. Which is ignored if they get Purple Sunned anyway.

Their stats don't matter when you're removing models / whole units from the table with "no saves of any kind allowed".

The only thing insane about them is their cost.

Blood Drinker and Regen banner - that's about the best investment protection you can get for these guys.

I think both are outrageous and would never buy either.
I have a PP army, and I have only paid full price (wincing) for a few models. The rest were got as gifts, through tournament prizes, or at half price in a sale.
Now that I am at the point where none of these are viable options anymore, I find myself looking at PP prices and shuddering. I can't justify them any more than I can some of GW's prices. The difference is GW still has a few kits that give good value for money. I could get an entire army from Mantic for around the cost of a unit+beast from Privateer, and the stubborn adherance to metal is irritating to me when it is obvious the future is plastic.
That said, PP are better at rules and public relations than GW so I LIKE them more, but I still think their stuff is overpriced. I can't see how anyone can make an argument in the opposite direction, but I think it does point out how polarised the community is when someone can't even bring this up without getting pounced on for being an apologist.

Sergeant Horse wrote:Ok, so it's a courtesy thing. You are aware however that a business is not required to tell you all the inner workings. And is less likely able to since it's a public ally traded company

Of course we are. Don't take everyone who disagrees with you for an imbecile, it reflects badly on your part. That being said, courtesy not being necessary doesn't mean we should not take notice when a company does the bare minimum required (GW) compared with going above and beyond that in order to provide customer service (Privateer).

Besides, aren't you overlooking the obvious? Privateer Press is an American company. Buy from them and you're supporting American industry, as opposed to a bunch of foreigners. Surely that should count for something on a forum as American-populated as this?

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Sergeant Horse wrote:Ok, so it's a courtesy thing. You are aware however that a business is not required to tell you all the inner workings. And is less likely able to since it's a public ally traded company

Of course we are. Don't take everyone who disagrees with you for an imbecile, it reflects badly on your part. That being said, courtesy not being necessary doesn't mean we should not take notice when a company does the bare minimum required (GW) compared with going above and beyond that in order to provide customer service (Privateer).

Besides, aren't you overlooking the obvious? Privateer Press is an American company. Buy from them and you're supporting American industry, as opposed to a bunch of foreigners. Surely that should count for something on a forum as American-populated as this?

I'm sure I never thought that, though it's quite possible that many people might not have known that. The opposite holds true though, I'd hope people would not assume some things by my posts. I'm trying to spark conversation that is forward, rather than negative

I don't see how the American thing holds true.
1. PP models are made in China, So buying there helps you support the American office, not the industry. And gw has an American office.
2. Most people talk about how much they eBay, barter town etc. A lot of that stuff is from overseas....and it makes a mockery of supporting American industry when people won't even support American locality.

Let's see... PP says sorry for price increases, the models are better in-game, they are an American company and they are less overall of the size of the army...

That all seems like apologist talk to me... but I suppose it is ok to be an apologist as long as you are blindly anti-GW.

This is valid, why can a customer walk into a store and pay 100$ for one product but then get pissed off about paying 100$ for virtually the same product but from another company... Obviously the price increase cannot be the driving force the way people claim so why is it so wrong for a store owner to want to know what the line of thinking is?

Oh, because it is 'cool' to hate GW but make excuses why we should accept the exact same behavior from the other companies.

An Infinity army runs something like 150 dollars, I'm not sure how you're able to compare that to a WH Fantasy (arguably the most expensive wargame in existence) army, and somehow lump that in with PP, where an army still lies in the 300-500$ range, which is what my Venoms and Raiders cost before I even buy stuff to put inside of them.

I'm talking price on an individual model basis. How do you say game size is justification for pricing? It doesn't matter that a game is bigger or smaller, on a model to model basis, that uses same materials and is around the same size, the prices are comparable. Game size should not factor into the price f an individual model.

A 100$ model or set of models that lets you play a 1-2 hour game is going to be fundamentally different from a 100$ unit that you can't do anything with because it makes up 5% of a total army and is illegal to field on it's own.

Comparing them as lumps of raw material across the board is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, the whole reason they cost more than the typical 7.50$ish you see for a Tamiya fighter jet is because you're using them for a game system in the first place. And as a game store owner that should be pretty obvious to you - how many times a month does someone walk into your store willing to pay for a 1/18-scale replica of an entire F-16 fighter wing? Now how many times a month does someone walk into a FLGS and buy a 40k army? The value of a game piece is intrinsically linked to it's point cost - the difference between a 100$ Blood Knight unit being "Overpriced Crap at 100$" and "Necessary 100$ to start a VC army" is it's in game performance (which is complete crap, let's just get that out of the way in any thread discussing VC Blood Knights).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does Little Timmy walk into your store and you tell him he can buy a Space Marine commander box and it will be totally awesome to have him shoot a single storm bolter at his friend's SM commander over and over again? Or do you try to move armies out the door so people can play 40k?

Both costs are BS.

I wouldn't pay for either one, especially when VC, and Retribution suck as bad as they do.

As for a "Justification" it all boils down to what the company in question thinks they can get for them. I see the "Praises" for PP, but I'm the skeptic that bought a five model starter set that was lofted up there as "All you need to play the game"... and the "Alternative to paying for workshop prices...."

What is the production cost, how much to materials cost, how much is sales, packaging, and distribution....


I can see that they might think they are good quality, but worth the quality of 100.00?


YMMV, but all I can see is 100 bucks thrown after bad. It's not a complete army, and your still going to end up paying the price in the end to actually have a chance to play with them.
( These tools don't even add in starter paints, brushes, or a book, included in the box or any other snacks to even make EITHER sets worth my time.)

Sergeant Horse wrote:I'm talking price on an individual model basis. How do you say game size is justification for pricing? It doesn't matter that a game is bigger or smaller, on a model to model basis, that uses same materials and is around the same size, the prices are comparable. Game size should not factor into the price f an individual model.

I have some Anima Tactics metal figures.
Their prices also seem to have risen lately, but more noticably with new models, and it does not seem to be an annual event.
The old ones seem to be pretty stable in price, but can cost around £12 each, with some under a tenner. Larger models go for £30 but that is not for me ta .

While I think that is expensive for what one gets, I can have a viable army for £50.
Admitedly it is a skirmish game, so 5 minis will get you a game. But that means a price increase does not really make a lot of difference overall on my ability to afford to play.
Adding 20% onto a small number of figures is easier to swallow, even if the taste is bitter. When you are having to pay up to 20% extra for entire units, I can understand why people get more vociferous.

Don't forget that GW are wanting bigger games with more models on the table, not sure if the same is happening with PP as I don't follow them.

Don't the Destros have about twice as much metal in them as the Blood Knights? I know Khador's horses were pretty bulky.

I was not using game size as any sort of justification for the price of either set of models. Both are quite expensive.

I was using game size as a comparison to the role both sets of models play in their respective armies, and thus their value within their respective games.

The in-game ability of each set of models is important, when you consider use/longevity = value. One set of models (Blood Knights) takes up less space in the army, and has the potential to be removed very quickly via some uber spell. They also cost more than the Destors in $$.

My comparison was trying to be as objective as possible, contrasting the amount of "value" each set of models has in its respective game. However "value" is ultimately subjective; If you enjoy GW products and Warhammer, you will place more "value" in the Blood Knights. That doesn't make you a GW 'apologist'. If you enjoy PP products and Warmachine, you'll place more value in the Destors. That doesn't make you a PP apologist either.

nkelsch, you just seem to think everyone has to be either PRO GW or PRO PP. My stating that the Blood Knights potentially have less value than the Destors doesn't mean I "hate" GW, or "love" PP.

MikeMcSomething wrote:An Infinity army runs something like 150 dollars, I'm not sure how you're able to compare that to a WH Fantasy (arguably the most expensive wargame in existence) army, and somehow lump that in with PP, where an army still lies in the 300-500$ range, which is what my Venoms and Raiders cost before I even buy stuff to put inside of them.

warboss wrote:

sourclams wrote:By my estimation WM/H is somewhere around half price versus 40k for competitive play and it scales much more easily so getting a 15 point starter box game going versus a complete newcomer is easier than playing a 500 point equivalent in 40k.

normally, i'm the first to jump onto the gw price-bashing bandwagon but i think over the past 10 years other companies have caught up with their prices when you compare apples to apples. while i agree that the cost of entry to games like malifaux and WM is lower simply because the model count is also, the price per fig of comparable size and quality is roughly the same and sometimes more when you compare similar sets (size, quality, white metal only).

Infinity starters with 6 figs? $46 USD and up retail on the warstore. GW boxes with 5 similarly sized (see link below half way down the page) figs recently released? $29.75 for the dark eldar stuff like incubi. bulkier figs like marines (LOTD)? 5 for $35.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/318593.page

warmachine? infantry is roughly the same size as 40k infantry. 10 IG stormtroopers? $41.25 10 winter guard rifleman? $49.99


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/224179.page


I can theoretically make up a minis game where you only need 2-3 minis in 28mm scale for the game and charge $50 for them together and have a "lower" barrier to entry but that doesn't mean the customer is actually getting a better deal when you compare similar items (size, quality, price). mind you, this is in no way a justification of GW's current prices, just a comparison with other popular companies to show that they have caught up or in some cases exceeded GW's price per ounce of sculpted minis. GW minis used to be hand over fist more expensive but concommitently better quality than their competitors' options; neither is really true right now.

Something I wrote a last year. Unfortunately for gamers, the industry in general has caught up with GW's pricing scheme and in some cases surpassed that. It generally doesn't get much notice as most of the games have a tiny but devoted following passionate about a small game within a small hobby niche leading to very little public dissent (which is usually shouted down by the few people that play the game... much like with GW apologists but with an added inferiority complex). The companies producing those games tend to be smaller also (a few to maybe a couple dozen full time employees) that actively and regularly engage with their respective communities and I think that helps soften the blow of ridiculous pricing. It's the difference between a friend trying to sell you a used couch for $100 and some guy on craigslist demanding that much for the same. You're don't necessarily like the couch any more but you're less willing to have sore feelings and complain about it if you buy it from a friend. Also, I don't know how the other companies handle price raises as I don't play/buy Infinity/PP/etc. Do they just stealth raise it and its just simply changed on distributor order sheets for stores without any announcement? Is the onus on a store owner or customer to notice or do they actively inform their customers (both end and store middlemen)? I personally don't like the general look of PP models so I don't buy them but I do actually like the look and style of Infinity ranges. The only reason I don't buy any is that, ounce for ounce, their models are even more expensive than GW (at least before this latest round of price raises).

As for the poll, I'm not familiar with either units. Sarge, can you post pics of the two to compare?

Sooo, because it is for a game, people should be expected to pay more... And the more useful it is in the game, the higher the prices should expected to be... which makes PP justifiable and a great value but GW a crime against the fandom.

You know if someone made this argument in defense of GW, they would be internet-lynched for being an apologist.

The realistic aspect of this is an item is worth what someone will pay. I personally won't buy either and they are not worth anything to me because I don't play PP and I don't play VCs in fantasy. But someone who does and wants to play either game may see it as 'worth something' to them.

This is why the whole 'price raises are ruining the hobby' because when we boil it down, people buy not what is cheaper, but what they find the most value out of, and frankly 'the game that everyone near me plays' is a huge part of value.

If 40k is the only game in town, then PP can be half the price and it has no value because it isn't 40k.

Not sure I am reading the same replies Nkelsch.
re read Bolo's post

In response to your last comment, it would be nice to think that but economies of scale may be a factor in determining prices.
Not saying that PP price increases are justified or not. Just tje way it works that if you are producing fewer metal figures the costs are relatively higher per unit.

Some stuff that no one is mentioning:

People DO complain about PP price increases. I complain. There are whole forums out there who bash PP for pices, rules etc.

the only reason that COMPARATIVELY not a lot of people complain about PP online is because GW has pissed off MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of gamers over time

give PP enough time and they might have the same reputation as GW.

Bakerofish wrote:Some stuff that no one is mentioning:

People DO complain about PP price increases. I complain. There are whole forums out there who bash PP for pices, rules etc.

the only reason that COMPARATIVELY not a lot of people complain about PP online is because GW has pissed off MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of gamers over time

give PP enough time and they might have the same reputation as GW.

Thats the unspoken truth of the issue.

PP isn't any better or worse, it is just... a different alternative. As for pricing?

25.00- 50.00 is still 25 to 50.00.

Doesn't matter if someone tells you sorry, or they beat you harder for sqealing about it. It is still an increase, and your still paying more.

Emotions have nothing to do with it, it is just about the money.


We are, because of GW's rash increase, and lack of foresight, going to see an all around increase across the board, as the too kool for school kids, the upstarts, and the competition fall into line with the big kids and try to justify even more in the name of actually thinking that thier models and games are actually WORTH that price.

Are they really?


Buy a box of Warhammer guys, and then a box of Warzone guys.

Buy a box of 40K guys, and then go buy yourself a box of Void guys.

Or malstrom... or Mageknight.


How are those Starship trooper guys doing? The ones that were supposed to "be prepainted to a 80% better quality then the market...."

What about those 3d and 4th edition boxes of marines, and OP models?

Are you getting repaid back what you paid for them to the tune of 50-100.00?


What exactly are we talking about when we are talking about this product? What, Really, are we talking about when we talk about charging market value?

Who's market? and who decides the standard price?

Till we know that, we can't even compare prices, or even know what is comparable pricing.

Leave "Fair" out of the equasion, too. That word is confusing the issue. there is no such thing as "Fair Market."

It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. I could care less about the total cost to play a game. Total entry cost into a game will ultimately decide whether or not I play that game, but will have no effect on whether I feel that the price of the models is worth it in comparison to similar models. PP, for example, charges just as much and in many cases more per model than GW, yet GW is a villan and PP is the grand alternative that is the hero of the hobbyist. What a load of !

@ OP - Cool Story, Bro.

Some big differences here:

- Unit size. For one unit of Destors, I will only ever need these 5 dudes. The unit size will not increase (or rather, won't increase under the current rule set). For Blood Knights, I may want that 6th dude. If I do: I'm buying another $90 box. Yippee.

- Price expectations of a comparable unit: In warmahordes, heavy calvary has always cost around $100 for a unit. Since 2007 when they dropped. Granted, back then it was "Buy a $60 minimum unit size box, then add on $20 blisters". In WHFB, I can go buy a box of plastic Bretonians for $35 or (IMHO) better looking Chaos Knights for ~$30.

- Price changes: Destors are a bad example since they just dropped, but the price of the original calvary hasn't moved much since the initial release. Blood Knights have gone up.. what.. $15 (were they $75 originally)? And now they're made of out of a cheaper material (albeit, yes - one that potentially has better detail, but some associated downsides [toxicity, etc])?

- Overall price to play a game: Warmahordes isn't cheaper per model, but I need less models to play a game. Its cheaper via scale of game.

- Tone of respective parent companies: Granted, noone "needs" to know why companies make business decisions. But when they're forward, and apologetic, it goes a long way. IMO, PP has done a better job here.

********

tl;dr - Yes, these respective 5 hunks of metal are roughly equivilantly costed. But there's more going on here than that.

Also: Wow, the PP hate here is lulztastic. Does hating on Privateer make any of you feel better about the recent price changes or the recent rules SNAFUs? Hope so.

augustus5 wrote:It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. I could care less about the total cost to play a game. Total entry cost into a game will ultimately decide whether or not I play that game, but will have no effect on whether I feel that the price of the models is worth it in comparison to similar models. PP, for example, charges just as much and in many cases more per model than GW, yet GW is a villan and PP is the grand alternative that is the hero of the hobbyist. What a load of !

Well, the thing with "worth" of something goes far beyond the actual worth of the material.

You are among the people who mainly justify the prices they´re willing to pay on a more or less purely material level. Both Destors and Blood Knights are about the same material and quality level. Going by this PP is just as bad as GW, maybe worse since they´re (in this case) slightly more expensive.

Then there´s the personal level, which most customers follow. Here factors like personal preferences, the image of a company, the personal experience, the size of the overall investment compared to the model at hand or simply the favorism of model X come together to form the decision whether or not something is worth it. Due to the most recent decisions by GW they took a hit in this level. For this reason many people can justify (to themselves) buying the Destors, but are outraged by the Blood Knights.

You have to remember: Most people are heavily influenced by not-material factors when determining the worth of something.

I don't see any privateer press hate here.
They are charging more for an equivalent product. Any defense that can be mounted for them can be spun back and used for GW. GW produce (compared to PP) cheap and versitile plastic troops. Blood Knights are a rare unit which you will certainly not see more than one of in most armies (it'd be as rare as two units of cavalry in a WM army.).
Game size and entry cost is creeping up for WM. I won't dispute, their rules are better and their release schedule makes more sense, and start up is much easier with them. And I agree, they have a better attitude towards their customers. But let's call a spade a spade- the miniatures are overpriced, and PP don't have a large retail chain to support as a "reason" for this.
Is this a reason to hate GW or PP? No. Just don't buy the stuff if it doesn't appeal to you.

augustus5 wrote:It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. !

How much would you pay if all GW rules became crystal clear and unambiguous written in common terminology at the level of a technical manual with on-line Q&A from the game developers?

I find extra value in that alone. Add in that the game is fundamentally cheaper given lower model counts and when I buy a new unit I am literally buying a new and different unit, and not the same box of PAGK which will be Squad 4: equipped and painted in the same way as Squad 1-3, it doesn't bother me in the least.

sourclams wrote:

augustus5 wrote:It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. !

How much would you pay if all GW rules became crystal clear and unambiguous written in common terminology at the level of a technical manual with on-line Q&A from the game developers?

I find extra value in that alone. Add in that the game is fundamentally cheaper given lower model counts and when I buy a new unit I am literally buying a new and different unit, and not the same box of PAGK which will be Squad 4: equipped and painted in the same way as Squad 1-3, it doesn't bother me in the least.

are you seriously saying Infinity is crystal clear and unambiguous? wow, maybe its better translated where you are.

sourclams wrote:

augustus5 wrote:It astounds me the number of people here who passionately defend Warmachine's or Infinity's price of their models simply because you need fewer of them to play the game. !

How much would you pay if all GW rules became crystal clear and unambiguous written in common terminology at the level of a technical manual with on-line Q&A from the game developers?

I find extra value in that alone. Add in that the game is fundamentally cheaper given lower model counts and when I buy a new unit I am literally buying a new and different unit, and not the same box of PAGK which will be Squad 4: equipped and painted in the same way as Squad 1-3, it doesn't bother me in the least.

I wouldn't feel better at all about GW's prices no matter how good their rules are. I think GW's prices stink for the most part. I think the price of Infinity and PP models are just as bad or even worse in many cases. That doesn't mean I hate PP as McNs would suggest.

McNs wrote:@ OP - Cool Story, Bro....(bunch of other )...Wow, the PP hate here is lulztastic. Does hating on Privateer make any of you feel better about the recent price changes or the recent rules SNAFUs? Hope so.

@McNs: You said Bro!

The bottom line for me is five metal models should cost about the same as five comparatively sized metal models. In my opinion companies like GW and PP are both guilty of gouging their prices. PP fans don't seem to mind so much because they find extra value in their game, yet they feel butt-sore any time somebody brings up the fact that their models cost more, and they tend to say "Bro" more often than GW fans.(at least they aren't stooping so low as to say "brah") GW fans have no problem ripping their own company for it's pricing and feel that getting bent over without apology is about as bad as getting bent over with a nicely worded apology.

augustus5 wrote: and they tend to say "Bro" more often than GW fans.(at least they aren't stooping so low as to say "brah")

I found it hilarious how you found the above statement worth adding to your argument. Complete with a Macho Man avatar at that!

that just says volumes right there

It really comes down to Latest-And-Greatest syndrome. Models don't usually crumble into dust from disuse. I recently sold a metric feth-ton of models on EBAY that I'm sure somebody is putting to good use. If you want to play miniature wargames and don't want to spend a lot of money, then convert and use older models if you're required to for tourney purposes, or switch to another range altogether.

You aren't obligated to buy these outrageously priced models, so why sweat it?

McNs wrote:



- Unit size. For one unit of Destors, I will only ever need these 5 dudes. The unit size will not increase (or rather, won't increase under the current rule set). For Blood Knights, I may want that 6th dude. If I do: I'm buying another $90 box. Yippee.

- Price expectations of a comparable unit: In warmahordes, heavy calvary has always cost around $100 for a unit. Since 2007 when they dropped. Granted, back then it was "Buy a $60 minimum unit size box, then add on $20 blisters". In WHFB, I can go buy a box of plastic Bretonians for $35 or (IMHO) better looking Chaos Knights for ~$30.

- Price changes: Destors are a bad example since they just dropped, but the price of the original calvary hasn't moved much since the initial release. Blood Knights have gone up.. what.. $15 (were they $75 originally)? And now they're made of out of a cheaper material (albeit, yes - one that potentially has better detail, but some associated downsides [toxicity, etc])?

- Overall price to play a game: Warmahordes isn't cheaper per model, but I need less models to play a game. Its cheaper via scale of game.

- Tone of respective parent companies: Granted, noone "needs" to know why companies make business decisions. But when they're forward, and apologetic, it goes a long way. IMO, PP has done a better job here.

Comparing the Destors to the Blood Knights is comparing tiny apples to full sized oranges. They are both miniatures, correct. But here's the problem. You drop $100 for the Destors, and that's it. It's 11 points for all 5 models, which will take up 1/5 of a 50 pt army, and 1/3 of a 35 pt army. There's no reason to include more than a single unit.

Now, the Blood Knights. Who, in 8th edition, takes a single unit of 5 cavalry? What can that do for you? If you want to add a Lord or Hero to that, fine - bit now the unit's over $100 dollars, since you'll never find a GW model for under $10. Apart from that, 8th Edition now encourages large units. So, you get a unit of 10 Blood Knights. Uh-oh, now that's $180. Damn, that unit's still dying to my opponent's magic/warmachines/monsters/hordes - better buy more! Now you're up to $270 for a 15 model unit!

This thread has no right to exist. This isn't a legitimate comparison.

The blood knights are, IMO, much better models, so I would justify spending more on them. Those other ones are meh, but that might be my GW-chip typing.