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Trying to figure out which of these is more outrageous, 5 metal blood knights for $90, or 5 Destors for $100. It seems to me that gw isn't the only company overcharging for models.....wonder why nobody complains about PP prices

NOTE: This poll is mainly an example, do not take it as the be all and end all choices, you can substitute the models listed for ANYTHING. Think of it as a thought experiment.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Hm, I guess for two reasons.

1) While individual prices are not that far off between PP and GW you need less money for a "big list" with PP due to the lower model count.
That unit of Destors is about 20% of the biggest regulary played game size, or even a third of the regular game size.

2) They feel PP (as a company) is worth the money, while GW is not. That can have many reasons, from better community contact (PP has a forum where you´ll always find some official posters) to less retail shenanigans.

To answer your question: I´d buy neither.

Edit:
Forgot a third reason.

3) You can get a discount on Destors, but not on Blood Knights. Thanks to that Destors are actually around 80,00 $ if you really want them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Obvious troll is obvious.

Obvious hater is more obvious, come up with an opinion. Whilst I'm not a fan of price icreases, it seems to me that the price of gw stuff is being raised to.MATCH other companies. Looking at the price of steelhead cavalry, or any medium sized pp box for example, or any of the many other game co.s, Pukp City, Infinity, I find the prices only now being on par





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vimes wrote:Hm, I guess for two reasons.

1) While individual prices are not that far off between PP and GW you need less money for a "big list" with PP due to the lower model count.
That unit of Destors is about 20% of the biggest regulary played game size, or even a third of the regular game size.

2) They feel PP (as a company) is worth the money, while GW is not. That can have many reasons, from better community contact (PP has a forum where you´ll always find some official posters) to less retail shenanigans.

To answer your question: I´d buy neither.

Edit:
Forgot a third reason.

3) You can get a discount on Destors, but not on Blood Knights. Thanks to that Destors are actually around 80,00 $ if you really want them.

I don't think adding that you can buy discount is a good reason there, you can get discounts on everything these days. PP isn't that much of a lower model count, a 50 point army cam be around 30-35 models, same as a 2k marine army?

Well, as I said, I´d buy neither but that´s the reasons someone COULD see for not complaining about PP but GW

Haha true. This came up over the weekend in our store. I asked why nobody is annoyed about charging $100 for Destors, and I still haven't been given a good reason for that price for me, it does put a bit of perspective on price increase of minks from gw, and the fact that they aren't the only ones doing it is interesting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just the only ones being slapped about it

PP probably aren't being slapped about it because when they have a price increase they apologise for it and explain the reasons.

GW on the other hand tries to pretend that everything is fine and nothing is broken.

Ok, so it's a courtesy thing. You are aware however that a business is not required to tell you all the inner workings. And is less likely able to since it's a public ally traded company

Not what I was saying at all... but hey, keep on believing what you want to believe. But let me try and put it another way...

Neither price is worth it. The difference is GW stamps on my foot and tries to tell me that I deserved the foot-stamping or that they didn't stamp on my foot at all. PP stamps on my foot and says 'Sorry. I really wish I didn't have to do that.'.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Obvious troll is obvious.

The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.

Vimes wrote:Hm, I guess for two reasons.

1) While individual prices are not that far off between PP and GW you need less money for a "big list" with PP due to the lower model count.
That unit of Destors is about 20% of the biggest regulary played game size, or even a third of the regular game size.

This is the biggest load of garbage excuse I've ever heard. Who cares how much of a percentage a model is of your list? The bottom line is that we are comparing 5 lumps of metal to 5 other lumps of metal. You really believe that PP should charge more for their metal lump simply because their game requires fewer lumps to play? We gripe about GW's prices but PP is doing the same thing, and in many cases making an even larger profit margin because some of their players justify it in this way. I have seen Infinity defended in the same way. They charge as much or more per model as GW but people act like it's cool because it requires fewer models to play.

Honestly I wish there was a "Both" button offered in this poll, as both of these sets are horribly overpriced. Since there wasn't a "Both" button I voted for the Destors since they are even more outragiously priced than the VC Cav.

mikhaila wrote:The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.

Maybe I need to get my tinfoil hat checked, but I see these sort of thread as nothing more than a means to an apologist end.

It starts with a simple enough question:

"Which of these prices is more justified/outrageous?"

... which then quickly becomes:

"So both of them are equally justified/outrageous?"

... which naturally turns to:

"Therefore GW's prices are completely fine and justified and anyone complaining is just a bandwagon-ing hater!"


tl;dr version:

Pointing out the high prices of another company in no way excuses nor justifies the high prices of another.

People do not complain about Privateer because privateer respects its consumer base with constant dialogue and respect. They allowed players to shape their rules, voice their oppinions and just overall enjoy the game and hobby. Privateer is coming off as a friend. GW rubs off in a different way.

They make army books optional, the models hold more game play value than 40k models do. Every model feels like it has more 'worth' for its contributory factors for the game.

These are just many reasons why privateer customer respect the company and their prices. Not saying that PP is any cheaper because they aren't. But the biggest point is PP players do not complain (as much) or if at all and that is really saying something about consumer attitudes for a company.

Its like the apple model. High prices, but respect to their fans -- people will pay and follow.

augustus5 wrote:
This is the biggest load of garbage excuse I've ever heard. Who cares how much of a percentage a model is of your list? The bottom line is that we are comparing 5 lumps of metal to 5 other lumps of metal. You really believe that PP should charge more for their metal lump simply because their game requires fewer lumps to play? We gripe about GW's prices but PP is doing the same thing, and in many cases making an even larger profit margin because some of their players justify it in this way. I have seen Infinity defended in the same way. They charge as much or more per model as GW but people act like it's cool because it requires fewer models to play.

Well as I said, I find both equally overpriced and would buy neither, despite having grown rather fond of PP and Warmachine in the few weeks/months I´ve been playing it.

Only thing I was saying that some people MIGHT find it easier to pay 100 $ for a measly 5 models if the overall investment for a sizeable army is smaller. Not that I think that it justifies the price.

That´s actually one of the reasons why I most likely never will own a war engine for any of my Warmachine/Hordes armies. I just can´t justify payin 80 bucks for a single modell.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

mikhaila wrote:The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.

Maybe I need to get my tinfoil hat checked, but I see these sort of thread as nothing more than a means to an apologist end.

It starts with a simple enough question:

"Which of these prices is more justified/outrageous?"

... which then quickly becomes:

"So both of them are equally justified/outrageous?"

... which naturally turns to:

"Therefore GW's prices are completely fine and justified and anyone complaining is just a bandwagon-ing hater!"


tl;dr version:

Pointing out the high prices of another company in no way excuses nor justifies the high prices of another.

and so you dont understand the point. I think the other posters do however. I'm trying to get to the meat of the facts, as Mihkaila points out, it affects me as a store owner, and I'd really like to know so I can better inform my customers. As I see it, the price of GW models are comparable still to other companies. Companies like Infinity which charge $12 for a model half the size of a GW one, or Spartan which is $25 or so for a ship sometimes. I'd just like to know is it REALLY the price thats causing issues? From many replies, it seems that its not. People post that PP seems "friendlier", this would probably be due to it not being controlled (to my knowledge) by shareholders, but it is not an requirement to tell customers everything, I certainly don't in my day to day.. Is it apologist to understand the facts? You just seem to be full of venom, but don't really have a COUNTER argument besides "omg apologist".

I'd like it just understood that it should NOT really be the prices that are the issue, yes they went up, yes it sucks. So did the price of gas, so did the $11 I had to pay to go to the cinema this evening (if the $10 extra you'll have to pay is that much of a bother, your in the wrong hobby) . People are really miffed about being out of the loop, but you know what? who cares, its their company, let them run it the way they want and continue to enjoy the games.




Now, the other stuff thats been going on this week........thats not so good

Vimes wrote:

That´s actually one of the reasons why I most likely never will own a war engine for any of my Warmachine/Hordes armies. I just can´t justify payin 80 bucks for a single modell.

Price is actually the the main reason I never jumped into Warmachine. I really love a lot of the Cryx models but just feel that I already overpay one mini company. I don't want to overpay any others as well.

After swearing off any new GW purchases due to anger over their warnings to internet retailers to not ship to the southern hemisphere I put some of my miniature money into Malifaux. I really like the price of Wyrd's models and like the comic-book look of them as well. I'm not sure how I'll like using a deck of cards instead of dice, but I feel good about taking money I would have given to GW and putting it into another company. The models were cheap enough that I purchased a set for a friend as well, so I would be sure to have somebody to play against. I haven't seen any Malifaux games taking place at the FLGS, so I don't think there is much of a community for it here.

GalaxyGames wrote:People do not complain about Privateer because privateer respects its consumer base with constant dialogue and respect. They allowed players to shape their rules, voice their oppinions and just overall enjoy the game and hobby. Privateer is coming off as a friend. GW rubs off in a different way.

They make army books optional, the models hold more game play value than 40k models do. Every model feels like it has more 'worth' for its contributory factors for the game.

These are just many reasons why privateer customer respect the company and their prices. Not saying that PP is any cheaper because they aren't. But the biggest point is PP players do not complain (as much) or if at all and that is really saying something about consumer attitudes for a company.

Its like the apple model. High prices, but respect to their fans -- people will pay and follow.

I could really care less about how a company justifies/fails to justify their price. GW ignores their fan base by not explaining the hike and PP comes out and says nice things to their fans before bending them over. To me both companies are doing the same thing. They are both charging more than I care to pay any longer. Whether one whispers sweet nothings in my ear before raping me or the other just simply rapes me is a moot point. They're both rapists ( ).

I also disagree that this is like the Apple model. Whether they are right or wrong, people who buy Apple computers say they prefer the OS, and that Macs "just work." I don't really think respect enters into that equation at all; it's more a matter of perceived performance.

In the OP's example, I can't really see much of a difference between the Destors and the Blood Knights. Both boxes contain the same amount of figures, that are made of the same material, are about the same size, and both are mediocre sculpts at best. Neither are examples of the best work coming from either company. Yet both are priced in an out of control fashion. And the Destors are even more outrageously priced than the Blood Knights, but that's okay because PP said sorry? that!

Well, because PP models each have a lot of special rules and synnergies, comparing to the apple model PP models can have more 'perceived' performance than GWs models with little rules but just pure stats and guns.

Because of that 'perceived' performance customers feel more value added when making their purchase decisions and thus feel 'ok' to spend that cash.
In the end they are both inanimate objects - sure but in game, I feel that PP models... you feel the pinch if you lose some in game. They add tremendous army synergy.


Its just a random though though.

I agree on all points though that its not any cheap and they are both pricing their products high. I was just analyzing... or something... *shrugs*

augustus5 wrote:We gripe about GW's prices but PP is doing the same thing, and in many cases making an even larger profit margin because some of their players justify it in this way

You bring up an interesting point here, in fact the main reason I have been put off starting hordes (love the Warhog model) is that it costs a lot, much like beginning any other miniatures game. However I would like to point out the differences in scale between the two companies.

I know full well that PP is a HUGE company, however, there are some distinct differences in how they operate:
- PP (AFAIK) distributes their models ENTIRELY through the FLGS, which does mean that they reach a much smaller audience (i.e. those who tend to already go to said FLGS anyway) whereas GW has their own global chain of dedicated stores AS WELL as selling through the FLGS, a massive difference in how many people they can reach to buy their products. So whereas £30 means little to GW, that same £30 would mean a lot more to PP

- Despite changing their production methods to cut costs, GW then felt justified in raising prices. The reason for the price hike hating isn't because they are making more money for the same costs, it's because they are making EVEN MORE money for LESS costs.

The reason nobody complains about PP is because they are a much smaller company (w.r.t GW) in an already small market. They charge the same as GW, but when you take into account levels of sales, you can see the pricing logic. PP charge $100 for 5 models, GW charge $90 for 5 models, but going by economies of scale, the number of sales GW makes on those models should make it a lot cheaper, while PP are more justified in charging that $100 because they sell a hell of a lot less of them than GW would.


I think what it really boils down to is that GW used to be a lot different to what they are now, despite being much younger than most on the forums I remember when GW used to be run more like a hobby than a business. However since they went all PLC on us those in the company (such as, despite his much maligned reputation on these here forums, JJ) that still want it to be a hobby are continuously being given the kaibosh by those that just want to make money (and appease the almighty shareholders). I think if when GW went public they just distributed their shares as a free gift in every battleforce, then things would be a lot different, for the simple reason that those who controlled the company would be interested in the actual hobby, not just the money it makes.

Sergeant Horse wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

mikhaila wrote:The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.

Maybe I need to get my tinfoil hat checked, but I see these sort of thread as nothing more than a means to an apologist end.

It starts with a simple enough question:

"Which of these prices is more justified/outrageous?"

... which then quickly becomes:

"So both of them are equally justified/outrageous?"

... which naturally turns to:

"Therefore GW's prices are completely fine and justified and anyone complaining is just a bandwagon-ing hater!"


tl;dr version:

Pointing out the high prices of another company in no way excuses nor justifies the high prices of another.

and so you dont understand the point. I think the other posters do however. I'm trying to get to the meat of the facts, as Mihkaila points out, it affects me as a store owner, and I'd really like to know so I can better inform my customers. As I see it, the price of GW models are comparable still to other companies. Companies like Infinity which charge $12 for a model half the size of a GW one, or Spartan which is $25 or so for a ship sometimes. I'd just like to know is it REALLY the price thats causing issues? From many replies, it seems that its not. People post that PP seems "friendlier", this would probably be due to it not being controlled (to my knowledge) by shareholders, but it is not an requirement to tell customers everything, I certainly don't in my day to day.. Is it apologist to understand the facts? You just seem to be full of venom, but don't really have a COUNTER argument besides "omg apologist".

I'd like it just understood that it should NOT really be the prices that are the issue, yes they went up, yes it sucks. So did the price of gas, so did the $11 I had to pay to go to the cinema this evening (if the $10 extra you'll have to pay is that much of a bother, your in the wrong hobby) . People are really miffed about being out of the loop, but you know what? who cares, its their company, let them run it the way they want and continue to enjoy the games.




Now, the other stuff thats been going on this week........thats not so good

It more than sucks if what you are paying more than doubles.

I really don't see the point of this kind of thread.

A lot of people are upset about GW. They aren't upset about PP. That's the reality

You have to assume either they have good reasons or they are getting their knickers in a twist for nothing. If they are getting their knickers in a twist for nothing, why do it at GW and not other companies.

Can we put up the price of a unit of Ogre Maneaters? How about Yeti? As much as you all enjoy (strong word here) about the price of blood knights, ogre players can pay far more for less effective models. And you get a 10% price reduction when buying the unit at once.

As for the PP cav, they're bigger and cav has a smaller demand in the market due in part to rules. Also given that I can easily purchase them at $80... I'd say their price is correct given the market for it.

Sergeant Horse wrote:Whilst I'm not a fan of price icreases, it seems to me that the price of gw stuff is being raised to.MATCH other companies.

That's just dumb, anyone can take a GW model and cherrypick an expensive alternative from another company. There's no way GW are raising prices to match their competitors and a quick look at the wider picture will tell you that. Just look at their plastics, no one charges as much as them. Most companies give you decent quality plastic figures starting as little as 50p up to about £1, yet GW regularly charge anything around £1.50-2.00 a head on plastics.

The fact is that GW is expensive right across the board on everything from paint and glue to the biggest figures. I looked around their store recently and it seemed to me that the most common price for a blister was £8.20, which usually gave you a single metal figure. Bigger more impressive metal figures were anything up to £13, but your average small metal figure was £8.20, that covered things like human-sized characters or smaller things like the jokaero.

The vast majority of companies do not have a starting price of £8.20 for a small metal figure including the smaller companies that do not get any economy of scale. Even the more expensive end of Reaper single miniatures are £6, the cheaper figures start around £3-4. Same applies to Heresy and Hasslefree and those other companies I like.

In my experience, it's a combination of a general feeling of being respected by the company selling them, the fact that cavalry generally aren't particularly amazing in the metagame lowering the demand, and that you'll only ever need a single box of them barring fairly exceptional circumstances.

Conversely, GW seems to actively cultivate a reputation for screwing its customers as often and hard as possible, and makes deathstars of cavalry like the Blood Knights at least decently effective, effectively boosting the price tag even further.

People post that PP seems "friendlier", this would probably be due to it not being controlled (to my knowledge) by shareholders, but it is not an requirement to tell customers everything, I certainly don't in my day to day.

It's less that Privateer tells customers everything, but that they actually attempt to engage in dialogue with their market. I'm sure a business owner like yourself knows the value of forming relationships with your clients: After all, a customer who actually likes your business will often go out of their way to give you their money as opposed to your less outgoing competitors. My family business gets customers and clients from as far away as Kansas City and both nearby Springfields on a regular basis for exactly that reason.

If a company alienates its customers with unexplained price hikes, a lack of friendly faces in the (metaphorical, in this case) store, and a steadfast insistence that advertising is bad for business, it's no small wonder that people complain.

mikhaila wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Obvious troll is obvious.

The irony of your post is amazing. The man brings up a point of discussion, which is especially relevant since he owns a gaming store, and you have to pop off.

Then lets look at this from another perspective mikhalia,

which of the 2 company do you think is the one in power to set the prices leading the miniature market?

I dont know if this bears anything in the conversation but:

I KNOW if I buy the Vampire counts I will spend 2 hours or so hunting for those itty bitty vent spikes. About a dozen or so per model.

and I know I will still miss some and will discover them after priming, and again after painting.

with Destors? not so much.

and +1 to what Laughing man said about only needing one unit. Unless you plan to play Unbound

You moved the goalpost in the argument. When talking about how much of you army the unit was, you switched from Vampire Counts (that's what the blood knights are from, right?) to Space Marines. That's a no no.

Comparing VC to Retribution, at proper point scales. The average game that probably 80%+ of warmachine players play is 35 points, Destors will take up 11 of those points if you take all 5. That's almost a third of the army.

Can someone comment on the point costs for a competitive build of 5 blood knights?

Then what's the average pick up game size that people play fantasy at? Are the blood knights worth it at that level? I recall hearing that blood knights can be kitted out to crazy point levels per model. But the question remains, at your average low/mid point value pickup game, are they worth it at that level?

How much will the rest of the VC army cost that goes alongside them?

The reality is, I think both units are large, complex, all metal models that there's no way they could be produced at a lower cost in metal. The destors are also in-line with PP's other prices, coming at about $20 a model for the same amount of metal, pieces, and probably more detail than similarly sized and complexity models in PPs line, and the lineups of many other models.

Comparing prices between companies / games seems weird, but okay.

The Blood Knights can be removed by an unlucky round of combat, or one of the 'uber' spells in 8th edition. At around 300 points for five models, they occupy 12% of the 'average' 2500pt fantasy list. Australians pay the equivalent of US$157.00 for a unit of five models.

The Destors have the equivalent of 5 wounds each. At 11 points of the 'average' 35 point list, they occupy 31% of your army. Australians pay the equivalent of US$91.00 for a unit of five models.

So to me, the PP models are MUCH cheaper, occupy more of the army they're part of, and last much longer in the game.

You run them with a BSB with the regen standard, a magic standard and you can throw a magic sword on the castellan. I think fully kitted they're ~500 points and damn hard to kill, hurt even worse on the charge.

Why raise prices to match another companies?
That makes no business sense. All things being equal, surely GW ought maintain the lower price, making the product more attractive in relation to PP's product?

Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?

Surtur wrote:I think fully kitted they're ~500 points and damn hard to kill, hurt even worse on the charge.

So that takes them up to being only 20% of an army. And still vulnerable to a one-spell 'sudden death' moment. And still $66.00 more expensive than the Destors.