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Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
#1, no one is part of the fire cast, some Tau are part of the Fire CASTE though.

#2, Yes, they are part of the Tau military, rather than fighting alongside them. They are 100% integrated into Hunter Cadres (Tau codex pg.22)

#3 actually shapers DO use pulse rifles, Vespid DO have body armour similar to that of the Tau (obviously modded cause of the vastly different anatomies) and basic kroot rifle/vespid neutron is alien technology AUGMENTED by Tau technology (they are both pulse weapons)

Kroot Rifles: "A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round..."-codex Tau Empire.

Vespid Neutron Blaster: "The weapon carried by the stingwings is a HYBRID OF VESPID AND TAU TECHNOLOGY...-codex Tau Empire

This all doesn't change anything. Kroot and Vespid will never be in Tau Fire Caste. Their children will never be trained like the Tau Fire Caste warriors. Because Fire Cast is only in Tau society and they only train Tau.

As on weapons, I remember I also mentioned that Kroot And Vespid would in that case man battle-suits and fight on long range, and also suck in close combat. Because they are only allies, they will never be in Fire Caste, it was design only for Tau. And what are you talking about? When was the last time you saw Kroot in Tau battle armor, from head to the feets. And Vespid to, they may wore some parts, but I never saw Vespid in Fire Warror armor.

One other thing, to let you understand me more clearly. Take for example one Mexican, he want's to join US army, fight for America and spread their influence. Will he be accepted? No, because he is a Mexican. US army only accepts people from US, have it's own training, equipment and strategies. But the Mexican can still join Mexican army.

Now exchange Mexican for Kroot and US army for Tau.
The point of this explanation is to present that Kroot and Vespid and Demiur are not part of the Tau Fire Caste. And that we should be only counting Fire Warriors into this.


.

Bolded the stupid(est) part. Mexican to kroot isn't a comparison. Unless Mexico became a protectorate of the US while I wasn't looking, it doesn't apply.

I'd respond to the rest but it's lunch time.

Adieu.

Nerivant wrote:Because the codex states that the Vespid are integrated with the Tau Empire, and in the case of the latter, it can be logically argued that Kroot are part of the Fire caste military.

Vespids are integrated into the Tau Empire, not the Tau race.
Kroot are more or less integrated into the Tau Empire, not a single caste of the Tau race.
Just because a Tau general leads a coalition force, doesn't change the race of Kroot and Vespids.

Trasvi wrote:The back of the third edition codex had the approximate numbers of each sept. I don't have the book with me, but I believe it listed the major sept worlds

Its not specifically sept worlds but septs of expansion phases ( 1st and 2nd. 3rd happens in the following codex ).
From that page in codex Tau:
- colony of 1st phase = 100.000 +
- colony of 2nd phase = 10-10.000

Not that densly populated it seems.

Trasvi wrote:
If we consider that 100M is a decent sized sept world, and that population is spread equally between the different castes, then we get 25M Tau Fire Caste per significant sept. Not including auxiliaries, or other Castes who help with military effort. Going from this, we get to a number of about 200M.

And if we consider that last page of the first Tau codex, a 100.000+x per colony may be what the 2nd phase colonys are now.
Still a ratio of 1:10 of new to established colony.
Why do we consider millions again?

Trasvi wrote:
WWII had hundreds of millions of troops.

No.
3rd reich for example ~ 9.000.000 over the whole WWII. Either the allies outnumbered them 100:1 or there is nothing to suggest
hundreds of millions.

Trasvi wrote:
Military figures in 40k fluff are absurdly wrong

iproxtaco wrote:
Here's me thinking we were talking about THE FIRE CASTE, and not the entire Tau military as a whole. The Kroot, and other allied races, whilst part of the Tau Military, are not members of the caste itself.

Exactly. Fire caste. Tau who are born into a caste. Not any other xenos who is part or attached to the Tau empire's military.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
#1, no one is part of the fire cast, some Tau are part of the Fire CASTE though.

#2, Yes, they are part of the Tau military, rather than fighting alongside them. They are 100% integrated into Hunter Cadres (Tau codex pg.22)

#3 actually shapers DO use pulse rifles, Vespid DO have body armour similar to that of the Tau (obviously modded cause of the vastly different anatomies) and basic kroot rifle/vespid neutron is alien technology AUGMENTED by Tau technology (they are both pulse weapons)

Kroot Rifles: "A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round..."-codex Tau Empire.

Vespid Neutron Blaster: "The weapon carried by the stingwings is a HYBRID OF VESPID AND TAU TECHNOLOGY...-codex Tau Empire

This all doesn't change anything. Kroot and Vespid will never be in Tau Fire Caste. Their children will never be trained like the Tau Fire Caste warriors. Because Fire Cast is only in Tau society and they only train Tau.

As on weapons, I remember I also mentioned that Kroot And Vespid would in that case man battle-suits and fight on long range, and also suck in close combat. Because they are only allies, they will never be in Fire Caste, it was design only for Tau. And what are you talking about? When was the last time you saw Kroot in Tau battle armor, from head to the feets. And Vespid to, they may wore some parts, but I never saw Vespid in Fire Warror armor.

One other thing, to let you understand me more clearly. Take for example one Mexican, he want's to join US army, fight for America and spread their influence. Will he be accepted? No, because he is a Mexican. US army only accepts people from US, have it's own training, equipment and strategies. But the Mexican can still join Mexican army.

Now exchange Mexican for Kroot and US army for Tau.
The point of this explanation is to present that Kroot and Vespid and Demiur are not part of the Tau Fire Caste. And that we should be only counting Fire Warriors into this.


.

Bolded the stupid(est) part. Mexican to kroot isn't a comparison. Unless Mexico became a protectorate of the US while I wasn't looking, it doesn't apply.

I'd respond to the rest but it's lunch time.

Adieu.

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

1hadhq wrote:

Its not specifically sept worlds but septs of expansion phases ( 1st and 2nd. 3rd happens in the following codex ).
From that page in codex Tau:
- colony of 1st phase = 100.000 +
- colony of 2nd phase = 10-10.000

Exactly. It says COLONY, not sept...

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

Not Fire warriors, although you and several others were talking about auxiliaries when they have no relevance when trying to discern a figure for a population they aren't a part of. Coa has his facts wrong again.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

You count them as such, said that they where the part of Tau fir Cast. And only Fire Warriors are part of the Fire Cast.
Kroot and Vespid are part of Tau Empire military force, not society Tau Fire Cast.

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

You count them as such, said that they where the part of Tau fir Cast. And only Fire Warriors are part of the Fire Cast.

No, I never said that.

And there are Tau other than Fire Warriors in the Fire caste.

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

You count them as such, said that they where the part of Tau fir Cast. And only Fire Warriors are part of the Fire Cast.
Kroot and Vespid are part of Tau Empire military force, not society Tau Fire Cast.

No, he never has 'counted them as Fire Warriors'. Read back through the thread before jumping out at people.

I never said that he counted them, others where.

I think that the question is do we count Kroot and Vespid into Fire Cast numbers?

Brother Coa wrote:I never said that he counted them, others where.

I think that the question is do we count Kroot and Vespid into Fire Cast numbers?

Which is what we're debating now.

Reading page 22 of the Tau codex gives me reason to believe that auxiliaries are counted as part of the Fire caste.

Brother Coa wrote:I never said that he counted them, others where.

I think that the question is do we count Kroot and Vespid into Fire Cast numbers?

What the feth Coa? You absolutely did say that!

Brother Coa wrote:You count them as such

That's in rely to Nerivant!
To answer your question though, no we don't, as they are not members of The Tau Fire Caste subspecies. They are auxiliaries in the general Tau military.

And that's what bug's me.

Tau Fire Cast is part of Tau society, only Tau are made Fire Wariiors and only Tau are part of the Fire Caste.
But no matter that, we are counting Tau allies as part of the Fire Caste to?

I am confused...

Some people are apparently, when they shouldn't be. Nothing indicates that they are part of The Fire Caste.

iproxtaco wrote:Some people are apparently, when they shouldn't be. Nothing indicates that they are part of The Fire Caste.

Except for the fact that they are considered part of a Command, which consists of all members of a given caste in a location.

Nerivant wrote:


Reading page 22 of the Tau codex gives me reason to believe that auxiliaries are counted as part of the Fire caste.

Missing to provide a quote gives me reason to doubt your beliefs.

You know, auxillaries like kroot are attached to the Tau's general organizational form on this page.
Attached troops of the 3rd line won't be adopted as Tau won't they?
Without a status as a Tau, how are they part of a caste?

Nerivant wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Some people are apparently, when they shouldn't be. Nothing indicates that they are part of The Fire Caste.

Except for the fact that they are considered part of a Command, which consists of all members of a given caste in a location.

And auxiliary troops.

Some of you guys need to study set theory.

Codex "Tau Empire" page 22 (retranslated from German) wrote:Auxiliary troops like Kroot hunter kindreds can be attached for tactical reasons and will be assigned by higher levels of command (e.g. sector command) .

Page 22 obviously features armies consisting mostly of Tau, with a few auxiliary troops attached, an army as described by the rules.
Does that make Kroot or Vespids change their race? No.
Do Kroot or Vespids now have to marry within the Tau Fire caste? No.
Are Kroot, vespids and other non-Tau races relevant for counting members of the Tau Fire caste? No.

So if you are discussing Kroot and Vespids in this thread, you obviously have no idea what the Fire caste is and are spamming this thread with off topic nonsense.

Codex "Tau Empire" page 8 (retranslated from German) wrote:Fire - The Fire caste consists of the Tau warriors.

I think some people need to re-read the codex. Kroot are attached to hunter cadres from a level of command that integrates all castes. (i can't recall exact name). Kroot are not in the fire caste, and the fire caste=/= the tau military!

That's spot on Kroothawk, have it right in front of me. Well done, those who cited the Command evidence, you didn't read past that.

iproxtaco wrote:Here's me thinking we were talking about THE FIRE CASTE, and not the entire Tau military as a whole. The Kroot, and other allied races, whilst part of the Tau Military, are not members of the caste itself.

True!. If we were talking about the Tau Military we'd have to take large parts of the Air Caste into account as well... and remember that other castes might also get involved in the war effort at some points.

Also, part of the problem is that we don't know exactly what the Fire Caste does. We know they are "warriors", we know they do fight... but there's more to war than just combat.

Take Intelligence, for example. The Fire Caste has scouts and stealth teams, but doesn't have access to recon air/spacecraft of their own. Also, Water Caste diplomats and journeymen can provide valuable intel on enemy military setups and deployments, yet it feels strange that such tasks are trusted to Tau citizens who, being outside the Fire Caste, probably lack insight on military affairs.

On the opposite, it'd make sense that military research was carried out by Fire Caste scientists... but on checking Forgeworld's entry on the Custodian-class battleship one learns that it was designed... by the Earth Caste!. If they developed the Air Caste's most powerful warship, does this mean the Hammerheads, Pirahnas, Drones, et al are also Earth Caste designs?

The workings of the Tau Caste system are sketchy at best. Strange for a race that seems designed to appeal to those who like their sci-fi a bit more scientific than fictional... GW certainly needs to flesh this out on future 'dexes.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

You still don't get it?

Kroot are not Tau. they cannot be Fire Warriors. And you are counting them as Fire Warriors, Vespid to.
Who is now stupid?

Who is saying that auxiliaries are Fire Warriors?

You count them as such, said that they where the part of Tau fir Cast. And only Fire Warriors are part of the Fire Cast.

No, I never said that.

And there are Tau other than Fire Warriors in the Fire caste.

The only non-FW is the FC are the council, the trainers and the retired. Battlefield technician/support staff roles would be filled by EC/Drones.