Fire caste numbers

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**Brother Coa**

agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I know this is off-topic but... how are Tau born? And how they define witch baby is for Earth and witch is for Fire cast?

**KingDeath**

Brother Coa wrote:
agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I know this is off-topic but... how are Tau born? And how they define witch baby is for Earth and witch is for Fire cast?

I don't know how they are born, but since caste interbreeding is forbidden a child will join the caste of it's parents.

**TrollPie**

Oah, I leave this thread a day and it gets up to three pages. For me, that's like leaving your car overnight and waking up to find you've been in a coma for the past 3 years and the world is dominated by robots.

Anyway, back to discussion:

@BrotherCoa-the Tau aren't the smallest fighting force in the galaxy, that would be the Space Marines or one of the hundreds of even smaller alien races. Remember, excluding the Warp the Tau control the second-largest united empire in the galaxy

**iproxtaco**

Yeah, they are, as Space Marines are a force within the Imperium. And he was referring to them as the smallest fighting force of all the major factions.

**Nerivant**

KingDeath wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I know this is off-topic but... how are Tau born? And how they define witch baby is for Earth and witch is for Fire cast?

I don't know how they are born, but since caste interbreeding is forbidden a child will join the caste of it's parents.

At this point, each caste is a distinct subspecies. There are very few questions as to what they'll be doing after they're born.

**im2randomghgh**

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

23 actually, 23 septs:

T'au
Tau'n
D'yanoi
Bork'an
Dal'yth
Fal'shia
Vior'la
Sa'cea

Au'taal
N'dras
Ke'lshan
Elsy'eir
Tash'var
Vash'ya
T'olku

Ksi'm'yen
Fi'rios
Me'lek
Es'tau
T'ros
Sha'draig
Ka'mais
Ho'sarn

Ya.

Ya.

I know. I win.

Anyways, by your logic, every single U.S. soldier currently in the military should be present at each and every engagement "because they have the numbers".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:
agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I know this is off-topic but... how are Tau born? And how they define witch baby is for Earth and witch is for Fire cast?

Each caste is a sub-species.

Fire warriors are the largest Tau, Air caste are the tallest (and lankiest), Earth caste are the smartest, Water caste are somewhere in between but presumably are charismatic and Ethereals have freaky looking ridges on their faces.

**TrollPie**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

23 actually, 23 septs:

T'au
Tau'n
D'yanoi
Bork'an
Dal'yth
Fal'shia
Vior'la
Sa'cea

Au'taal
N'dras
Ke'lshan
Elsy'eir
Tash'var
Vash'ya
T'olku

Ksi'm'yen
Fi'rios
Me'lek
Es'tau
T'ros
Sha'draig
Ka'mais
Ho'sarn

Ya.

Ya.

I know. I win.

Anyways, by your logic, every single U.S. soldier currently in the military should be present at each and every engagement "because they have the numbers".

You don't win. He said specifically 7 fully developed septs. There are only 3 major ones-the rest are pretty small. Still, I'd say the numbers of each sept average out at roughly equal to Earth-Earth is pretty sparcely populated by the standards o the 41st millenium and doesn't have cities in the sky.

**im2randomghgh**

TrollPie wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

23 actually, 23 septs:

T'au
Tau'n
D'yanoi
Bork'an
Dal'yth
Fal'shia
Vior'la
Sa'cea

Au'taal
N'dras
Ke'lshan
Elsy'eir
Tash'var
Vash'ya
T'olku

Ksi'm'yen
Fi'rios
Me'lek
Es'tau
T'ros
Sha'draig
Ka'mais
Ho'sarn

Ya.

Ya.

I know. I win.

Anyways, by your logic, every single U.S. soldier currently in the military should be present at each and every engagement "because they have the numbers".

You don't win. He said specifically 7 fully developed septs. There are only 3 major ones-the rest are pretty small. Still, I'd say the numbers of each sept average out at roughly equal to Earth-Earth is pretty sparcely populated by the standards o the 41st millenium and doesn't have cities in the sky.

Sept means that it is fully developped, and these are all septs.

**Kilkrazy**

agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I don't think that is true, or at least it isn't the point of the query.

Presumably child Fire Caste and retired Fire Caste are not in the army, and do not count as Warriors, except perhaps in a formal sense.

Else there would be no distinction between Fire Caste and Fire Warrior, and there is one.

**iproxtaco**

Every Caste needs a major civilian component to keep the population growing, the Fire Caste more so than any of the others.

**im2randomghgh**

Kilkrazy wrote:
agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I don't think that is true, or at least it isn't the point of the query.

Presumably child Fire Caste and retired Fire Caste are not in the army, and do not count as Warriors, except perhaps in a formal sense.

Else there would be no distinction between Fire Caste and Fire Warrior, and there is one.

Fire Warriors rarely retire, as Tau are usually promoted based on age...even old people can pilot suits. And those that do become simply too old become military advisors-tacticians basically.

**agnosto**

Kilkrazy wrote:
agnosto wrote:Everyone born into the fire caste is a firewarrior. They are born and bred for war.

I don't think that is true, or at least it isn't the point of the query.

Presumably child Fire Caste and retired Fire Caste are not in the army, and do not count as Warriors, except perhaps in a formal sense.

Else there would be no distinction between Fire Caste and Fire Warrior, and there is one.

The codex says they start their lives on the front lines and the only exit from the army is through death or promotion to the grand council.

So little is written, for all we know they are "born" fully developed with enough racial memory to hold and fire a pulse rifle. With a 40-45 year lifespan and at least half of it in the trenches, if they aren't born fully developed, they have an accelerated growth rate and short childhoods. It takes 16 years of full combat experience to get promoted up the ranks..

**im2randomghgh**

They reach mental and physical maturity at ~10 (forget where I read this) and only sleep for 4.5 hours a day (that's at max, at min they sleep 2.25H a day) so they still have long enough waking lives.

Also, the only way possible to retire is to spend four years as a Shas'O, then you can either join the council or retire (I only know of Puretide retiring).

**Brother Coa**

im2randomghgh wrote:

T'ros

Sept means that it is fully developped, and these are all septs.

T'ros is a fully developed sept? It has 12.000+ people living on it. There is more people living in my neighborhood then in entire fully developed Tau sept?

**Nerivant**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, the only way possible to retire is to spend four years as a Shas'O, then you can either join the council or retire (I only know of Puretide retiring).

Retiring is joining the council, and playing a greater part in Tau politics.

They never stop contributing in some way.

**im2randomghgh**

Brother Coa wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:

T'ros

Sept means that it is fully developped, and these are all septs.

T'ros is a fully developed sept? It has 12.000+ people living on it. There is more people living in my neighborhood then in entire fully developed Tau sept?

12000+ Tau. It is mainly a Gue'vesa world.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
it has 12 million humans

**Brother Coa**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:

T'ros

Sept means that it is fully developped, and these are all septs.

T'ros is a fully developed sept? It has 12.000+ people living on it. There is more people living in my neighborhood then in entire fully developed Tau sept?

12000+ Tau. It is mainly a Gue'vesa world.

Still you said FULLY DEVELOPED SEPT. That's like saying "city of New York with 50.000 people". After this post why would we assume that even the T'au have significantly larger population?

T'ros is not developed Sept world, it is a mining colony.

There are 17 fully developed sept worlds, 3 smalled septa and 2 recently colonized.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:
it has 12 million humans

That's again small population. Moscow have 25.000.000 people.

**Nerivant**

Brother Coa wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:

T'ros

Sept means that it is fully developped, and these are all septs.

T'ros is a fully developed sept? It has 12.000+ people living on it. There is more people living in my neighborhood then in entire fully developed Tau sept?

12000+ Tau. It is mainly a Gue'vesa world.

Still you said FULLY DEVELOPED SEPT. That's like saying "city of New York with 50.000 people". After this post why would we assume that even the T'au have significantly larger population?

T'ros is not developed Sept world, it is a mining colony.

There are 17 fully developed sept worlds, 3 smalled septa and 2 recently colonized.

Wait, only members of the Tau race count towards the development of a Tau Empire Sept?

**iproxtaco**

When trying to get an indication of the population of THE TAU, then yes, absolutely.

**Brother Coa**

Nerivant wrote:
Wait, only members of the Tau race count towards the development of a Tau Empire Sept?

Last I checked - Only Tau have Sept's. Kroot and Vespid don't.
And last I checked - only Tau warriors can be in fire cast.

**TrollPie**

iproxtaco wrote:When trying to get an indication of the population of THE TAU, then yes, absolutely.

But we're trying to get an approximate populaton for the Fire Caste in particular. Whether that includes alien auxilaries, I don't know. Are Kroot full members of the Fire Caste or just meatshields? I guess it's like asking whether tins of spam are members of the USMC for all the Tau care about them...

**iproxtaco**

No, Kroot are auxiliaries, so when trying to get an understanding of THE TAU, the population of any allied races has absolutely nothing to do with it.

**Nerivant**

Brother Coa wrote:
And last I checked - only Tau warriors can be in fire cast.

And I'm not trying to argue that fact.

But trying to calculate the number of Fire caste members and ignoring their numerous auxiliaries is pointless.

**iproxtaco**

Actually, it's pointless to consider them, as they aren't Tau, and therefore aren't members of the Fire Caste.

**BeefCakeSoup**

I'd say for the time being a safe estimate for the amount of of Tau FWs in an Empire numbering in the billions is millions.

Daly'yth Prime (one planet) had billions and the Tau Empire is noted as being densely populated despite being small.

Given the lifestyle of Fire Warriors, combined with the relative safe bet that a population of billions, contains a plausible number of one cast, I'd say millions is a very conservative bet.

We can't really use certain battles as good number references. While they can be an indicator, they aren't always accurate. Tau battles use a doctrine that is more reliant on tactics than endless numbers. Using the Astartes as an example, we tend to see Companies of mixed origin or small squads on missions, but that doesn't mean we are seeing the full extent of the Space Marines in any given battle.

**Nerivant**

iproxtaco wrote:Actually, it's pointless to consider them, as they aren't Tau, and therefore aren't members of the Fire Caste.

And calculating the number of Tau in the Fire caste is like trying to calculate the number of abhumans in the Imperial Guard; you're not getting the entire picture.

**iproxtaco**

So how does calculating the number of Kroot on a Tau sept benefit the discussion, pray tell?

**Brother Coa**

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Daly'yth Prime (one planet) had billions and the Tau Empire is noted as being densely populated despite being small.

Where does it say that? For this planet to have billions?

**Nerivant**

iproxtaco wrote:So how does calculating the number of Kroot on a Tau sept benefit the discussion, pray tell?

Because the members of the Tau race who are biologically part of the Fire caste and the Tau and auxiliaries who are part of the Fire caste military are two completely different things.

**im2randomghgh**

Brother Coa wrote:
Nerivant wrote:
Wait, only members of the Tau race count towards the development of a Tau Empire Sept?

Last I checked - Only Tau have Sept's. Kroot and Vespid don't.
And last I checked - only Tau warriors can be in fire cast.

No, the auxilliaries are part of the caste, but because of them being aliens, their race IS their rank=the reason why there aren't any vespid Shas'O.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:No, Kroot are auxiliaries, so when trying to get an understanding of THE TAU, the population of any allied races has absolutely nothing to do with it.

In the 17th century the French army used aboriginal auxilliaries, would you not count them as fighting for the french?