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iproxtaco wrote:So how does calculating the number of Kroot on a Tau sept benefit the discussion, pray tell?

It can give us a basis for the total number of kroot working for the Empire. An extremely rough and inaccurate basis that won't help at all, but a basis none the less.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Daly'yth Prime (one planet) had billions and the Tau Empire is noted as being densely populated despite being small.

Where does it say that? For this planet to have billions?

Why wouldn't it? A planet roughly the size of Earth, presumably with less water coverage, with a lot of the population in orbital stations and a decent quality and distribution of housing could easily hold billions of people. Why leave half of it empty? The Tau are, as he said, densely populated (source: the core rulebook, the Tau 'dex and pretty much every other mention of the Tau); this isn't true if they have almost empty planets, no matter how close they are together.

Also, the auxilliaries are important, as I have heard that (numerically, but not in terms of actually might) the kroot in the Tau military out-number the Tau.

im2randomghgh wrote:
No, the auxilliaries are part of the caste, but because of them being aliens, their race IS their rank=the reason why there aren't any vespid Shas'O.

So you are saying that Kroot and Vespid are also in the fire cast? Not acording to Lexicanum:

"Shas - Fire caste
Members of the Fire caste are the warriors of the Tau Empire, and as such are most often seen on the field of battle. They are taller and stronger than the members of the other castes, although still weaker and shorter than the average human. These traits come from the Fire Caste's origin on the plains of T'au, where they were hunters and warriors. Tau from the world of Vior'la tend to have slightly greater muscle mass than the norm because of the stronger gravity of that planet. These warriors are known as Fire Warriors.
Rising through the ranks
Provided the warrior survives 4 years of active duty, he undergoes the first Trial by Fire, which can be anything from mere gladiatorial affairs to trial by constant combat. If the Shas'la survives his first Trial by Fire, he is promoted to the rank of Shas'ui, or Veteran. For every consecutive four years of service, the Fire Warrior undergoes another Trial. The higher one's rank within the Fire Caste, the more likely one is to be a Battlesuit pilot. Upon attaining the rank of "O", a member of the Fire Caste may be allowed to retire from active duty and become an advisor to the Tau military's command structure, the Shas'ar'tol. Other than death this is the only way to leave the Tau military."

There is no mention of aliens anywhere. Kroot and Vespid are in their army's fighting alongside Tau. They are not part of Tau fire cast at all.

In the 17th century the French army used aboriginal auxilliaries, would you not count them as fighting for the french?

Because Human military history don't have any links with the Tau.

Brother Coa wrote:
There is no mention of aliens anywhere. Kroot and Vespid are in their army's fighting alongside Tau. They are not part of Tau fire cast at all.

But they are part of the Fire caste military.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the auxilliaries are important, as I have heard that (numerically, but not in terms of actually might) the kroot in the Tau military out-number the Tau.

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military. They are fighting for the Tau but they are not part of the fire cast. Same as Guardsman are not part of Space Marine Chapter, even if they are auxiliaries to the Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
There is no mention of aliens anywhere. Kroot and Vespid are in their army's fighting alongside Tau. They are not part of Tau fire cast at all.

But they are part of the Fire caste military.

So Kroot and Vespid are carrying Pulse Rifles and have armor on all their body and they excel in range fir support?
They are part of the TAU MILITARY FORCE not TAU FIRE CAST.

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

I meant Tau as TAU. They are part of Tau Empire military.

And did you just said that Kroots andVEspid are members of the fire caste?
What's next? Air Caste Kroot or wather cast Vespid

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

I meant Tau as TAU. They are part of Tau Empire military.

And did you just said that Kroots andVEspid are members of the fire caste?
What's next? Air Caste Kroot or wather cast Vespid

Yes, I said they are part of the Fire caste military.

If they are part of a Command, then they are included with all Fire caste forces in a location. If they're attached to a Cadre, they're still part of the Fire caste military.

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

I meant Tau as TAU. They are part of Tau Empire military.

And did you just said that Kroots andVEspid are members of the fire caste?
What's next? Air Caste Kroot or wather cast Vespid

Yes, I said they are part of the Fire caste military.

If they are part of a Command, then they are included with all Fire caste forces in a location. If they're attached to a Cadre, they're still part of the Fire caste military.

All right

Now back to OP. Since their main world is heavily populated giving the sources from the books, FW must number in high millions.
Even we can't say that for sure because we don't know the % of the Tau population in the army.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, the auxilliaries are important, as I have heard that (numerically, but not in terms of actually might) the kroot in the Tau military out-number the Tau.

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military. They are fighting for the Tau but they are not part of the fire cast.

#1, no one is part of the fire cast, some Tau are part of the Fire CASTE though.

#2, Yes, they are part of the Tau military, rather than fighting alongside them. They are 100% integrated into Hunter Cadres (Tau codex pg.22)

#3 actually shapers DO use pulse rifles, Vespid DO have body armour similar to that of the Tau (obviously modded cause of the vastly different anatomies) and basic kroot rifle/vespid neutron is alien technology AUGMENTED by Tau technology (they are both pulse weapons)

Kroot Rifles: "A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round..."-codex Tau Empire.

Vespid Neutron Blaster: "The weapon carried by the stingwings is a HYBRID OF VESPID AND TAU TECHNOLOGY...-codex Tau Empire


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

I meant Tau as TAU. They are part of Tau Empire military.

And did you just said that Kroots andVEspid are members of the fire caste?
What's next? Air Caste Kroot or wather cast Vespid

Yes, I said they are part of the Fire caste military.

If they are part of a Command, then they are included with all Fire caste forces in a location. If they're attached to a Cadre, they're still part of the Fire caste military.

All right

Now back to OP. Since their main world is heavily populated giving the sources from the books, FW must number in high millions.
Even we can't say that for sure because we don't know the % of the Tau population in the army.

...Well kroot and Demiurg ships do work in support of the Air Caste, and kroot are sometimes used to repel boarding actions...

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

The codex also only counts the number of firewarrior teams as comprising a cadre. If you look at the force organization chart, sure it has pictures of some kroot and vespid in there but those teams are just auxilliaries, not members of the fire caste.

If you want a historical perspective; look at the Roman Empire. The Romans employed auxilliaries from many nations but they were never intrinsically part of the military. The marched with the army, fought with the army and even got rich with the army but they were never "Roman" (except for the few that earned citizenship).

Kroot, Vespid and other races are a welcome addition to the greater good but even the codex states that the Tau are "first among equals".

Also, there is no "Fire Caste Military" there is just the combined forces of the Tau which are comprized of ground troops (Fire Caste) air support (Air Caste) and support personel (Water and Earth Caste). I've never heard of a kroot or vespid being called a member of the fire caste (doesn't mean I'm right, I just have never heard of it).

agnosto wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

The codex also only counts the number of firewarrior teams as comprising a cadre. If you look at the force organization chart, sure it has pictures of some kroot and vespid in there but those teams are just auxilliaries, not members of the fire caste.

If you want a historical perspective; look at the Roman Empire. The Romans employed auxilliaries from many nations but they were never intrinsically part of the military. The marched with the army, fought with the army and even got rich with the army but they were never "Roman" (except for the few that earned citizenship).

Kroot, Vespid and other races are a welcome addition to the greater good but even the codex states that the Tau are "first among equals".

Also, there is no "Fire Caste Military" there is just the combined forces of the Tau which are comprized of ground troops (Fire Caste) air support (Air Caste) and support personel (Water and Earth Caste). I've never heard of a kroot or vespid being called a member of the fire caste (doesn't mean I'm right, I just have never heard of it).

If auxiliaries fall under a Fire caste Command, how are they not part of the Fire caste?

The kroot, the vespin and the rest are a part of the army. They are just not part of the caste. If we want to know how strong the army is then you include the kroot. If you just want to know how many fire warriors they have you don't.

[bla my brain broke]

Nerivant wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

The codex also only counts the number of firewarrior teams as comprising a cadre. If you look at the force organization chart, sure it has pictures of some kroot and vespid in there but those teams are just auxilliaries, not members of the fire caste.

If you want a historical perspective; look at the Roman Empire. The Romans employed auxilliaries from many nations but they were never intrinsically part of the military. The marched with the army, fought with the army and even got rich with the army but they were never "Roman" (except for the few that earned citizenship).

Kroot, Vespid and other races are a welcome addition to the greater good but even the codex states that the Tau are "first among equals".

Also, there is no "Fire Caste Military" there is just the combined forces of the Tau which are comprized of ground troops (Fire Caste) air support (Air Caste) and support personel (Water and Earth Caste). I've never heard of a kroot or vespid being called a member of the fire caste (doesn't mean I'm right, I just have never heard of it).

If auxiliaries fall under a Fire caste Command, how are they not part of the Fire caste?

You missed the whole historical analogy.

Ok, closer to home. A UN force goes into X country. An American General my be in charge but that doesn't make the pakistani forces present American, does it?
Another example. In Afghanistan, Afghani army personnel go on joint missions with US soldiers, they are answerable to their chain of command that is working with the US forces.

They are not "part" of the army. The travel with, fight along side, share experiences with the army but they are not part of it. In fact, Kroot are noted to come and go and you'll hardly ever see the same group at the same battle. As far as command goes, Kroot can have their own commanders in the form of Shapers and Vespid have strain leaders. In a real world scenario, they would just be cooperating forces that are informally attached to a cadre....thus the term attache' (sorry too lazy to put the accent in the right spot).

Here's a good read into how I believe the Kroot and Vespid fit within the overal scheme of things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliaries_(Roman_military)
Look under the heading "Irregular Allied Forces."

agnosto wrote:
Ok, closer to home. A UN force goes into X country. An American General my be in charge but that doesn't make the pakistani forces present American, does it?
Another example. In Afghanistan, Afghani army personnel go on join missions with US soldiers, they are answerable to their chain of command that is working with the US forces.

They are not "part" of the army. The travel with, fight along side, share experiences with the army but they are not part of it. In fact, Kroot are noted to come and go and you'll hardly ever see the same group at the same battle. As far as command goes, Kroot can have their own commanders in the form of Shapers and Vespid have strain leaders. In a real world scenario, they would just be cooperating forces that are informally attached to a cadre....thus the term attache' (sorry too lazy to put the accent in the right spot).

That's a worse analogy than the first one.

Auxiliaries are not following their own chain of command. They're part of the Tau Empire.

Nerivant wrote:

agnosto wrote:
Ok, closer to home. A UN force goes into X country. An American General my be in charge but that doesn't make the pakistani forces present American, does it?
Another example. In Afghanistan, Afghani army personnel go on join missions with US soldiers, they are answerable to their chain of command that is working with the US forces.

They are not "part" of the army. The travel with, fight along side, share experiences with the army but they are not part of it. In fact, Kroot are noted to come and go and you'll hardly ever see the same group at the same battle. As far as command goes, Kroot can have their own commanders in the form of Shapers and Vespid have strain leaders. In a real world scenario, they would just be cooperating forces that are informally attached to a cadre....thus the term attache' (sorry too lazy to put the accent in the right spot).

That's a worse analogy than the first one.

Auxiliaries are not following their own chain of command. They're part of the Tau Empire.

I don't know what fluff you've been reading but I've read things over and over that state the Kroot do what they want; heck, they even covertly hire themselves out to other factions (page 17 of the codex 4th paragraph). The only Kroot world that is listed as being completely integrated into the Empire is Pech.

Again. Kroot and Vespid are listed repeatedly in the fluff as "Allies"; they aren't Tau. Show me one example of when an allied fighting force doesn't have some autonomy. There would be no need of shapers and strain leaders if the allied forces could just be led by a Shas'ui.

agnosto wrote:

Again. Kroot and Vespid are listed repeatedly in the fluff as "Allies"; they aren't Tau. Show me one example of when an allied fighting force doesn't have some autonomy. There would be no need of shapers and strain leaders if the allied forces could just be led by a Shas'ui.

The Vespid are completely integrated with the Tau, and shapers serve a purpose beyond leading squads in combat.

Indeed, Shapers are extremely important to the Kroot, far more than mere squad leaders.

agnosto wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

*Sigh* they are not the part of the Tau military.

Oh, really?

Auxiliaries in a Hunter Cadre are detached from a higher level of organization. The codex specifically mentions the Command as such a level. A Command is all of the members of a given caste in a given location.

The codex also only counts the number of firewarrior teams as comprising a cadre. If you look at the force organization chart, sure it has pictures of some kroot and vespid in there but those teams are just auxilliaries, not members of the fire caste.

If you want a historical perspective; look at the Roman Empire. The Romans employed auxilliaries from many nations but they were never intrinsically part of the military. The marched with the army, fought with the army and even got rich with the army but they were never "Roman" (except for the few that earned citizenship).

Kroot, Vespid and other races are a welcome addition to the greater good but even the codex states that the Tau are "first among equals".

Also, there is no "Fire Caste Military" there is just the combined forces of the Tau which are comprized of ground troops (Fire Caste) air support (Air Caste) and support personel (Water and Earth Caste). I've never heard of a kroot or vespid being called a member of the fire caste (doesn't mean I'm right, I just have never heard of it).

If auxiliaries fall under a Fire caste Command, how are they not part of the Fire caste?

You missed the whole historical analogy.

Ok, closer to home. A UN force goes into X country. An American General my be in charge but that doesn't make the pakistani forces present American, does it?
Another example. In Afghanistan, Afghani army personnel go on joint missions with US soldiers, they are answerable to their chain of command that is working with the US forces.

They are not "part" of the army. The travel with, fight along side, share experiences with the army but they are not part of it. In fact, Kroot are noted to come and go and you'll hardly ever see the same group at the same battle. As far as command goes, Kroot can have their own commanders in the form of Shapers and Vespid have strain leaders. In a real world scenario, they would just be cooperating forces that are informally attached to a cadre....thus the term attache' (sorry too lazy to put the accent in the right spot).

Here's a good read into how I believe the Kroot and Vespid fit within the overal scheme of things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliaries_(Roman_military)
Look under the heading "Irregular Allied Forces."

Auxilliaries and aligned forces are different. The best example I can possibly imagine would be the Spartans and the Helots. The spartan army had close to 90,000 Spartans, but only 10,000 had earned citizenship, with the rest being lightly (if at all) armoured helots supporting the men of Sparta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Indeed, Shapers are extremely important to the Kroot, far more than mere squad leaders.

This may be the first time I have EVER agreed with you Melissia, and it is rather odd.

But yes, Shapers are the single most important individual kroot. The welfare of the kinship rests upon their shoulders.

im2randomghgh wrote:Auxilliaries and aligned forces are different. The best example I can possibly imagine would be the Spartans and the Helots. The spartan army had close to 90,000 Spartans, but only 10,000 had earned citizenship, with the rest being lightly (if at all) armoured helots supporting the men of Sparta.

How so? Allied auxilliaries have been mainstays in armies throughout history. Heck, even US pilot-volunteers were flying missions with the RAF before the US entered WW2. Auxilliary attachments usually provide something that is lacking in the main force (kroot stealth, vespid mobility).

If you want more evidence, there was an entire Kroot Mercenaries codex which gives an idea of how completely differen a kroot-only force is compared to a tau-structured cadre.

Not sure the helots are a good example unless you are in the kroot=meatshield camp. Helots were treated poorly and even could be killed at whim by Spartans. There were only a few occurances that any were under arms and earned freedom (note, not citizenship); usually Helots were tied to the land they worked and were poorly trained/suited in a warfare capacity. They weren't treated very well...that's why there were several revolts.

I know a shaper is much more than just a squad leader. My point in mentioning that was to show that if a kindred was actually just a part of an overall Tau army and not an allied contingent then they could just as easily be led by a non-kroot.

Again this is where we all will just have to believe what we want to because there just isn't that much written (at least that I've seen). In IA:3 and other places where there is combat mentioned with Tau and Kroot working together, the kroot just do what they want, much to the horror of the Tau "I wish he'd stop eating that human's head for a minute and listen to me."

This thread is a waste of time.

There is absolutely no way to tell from the fluff what the population of Tau is, or how the castes are divided.

Moving thread to Discussions.

im2randomghgh wrote:
#1, no one is part of the fire cast, some Tau are part of the Fire CASTE though.

#2, Yes, they are part of the Tau military, rather than fighting alongside them. They are 100% integrated into Hunter Cadres (Tau codex pg.22)

#3 actually shapers DO use pulse rifles, Vespid DO have body armour similar to that of the Tau (obviously modded cause of the vastly different anatomies) and basic kroot rifle/vespid neutron is alien technology AUGMENTED by Tau technology (they are both pulse weapons)

Kroot Rifles: "A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round..."-codex Tau Empire.

Vespid Neutron Blaster: "The weapon carried by the stingwings is a HYBRID OF VESPID AND TAU TECHNOLOGY...-codex Tau Empire

This all doesn't change anything. Kroot and Vespid will never be in Tau Fire Caste. Their children will never be trained like the Tau Fire Caste warriors. Because Fire Cast is only in Tau society and they only train Tau.
As on weapons, I remember I also mentioned that Kroot And Vespid would in that case man battle-suits and fight on long range, and also suck in close combat. Because they are only allies, they will never be in Fire Caste, it was design only for Tau. And what are you talking about? When was the last time you saw Kroot in Tau battle armor, from head to the feets. And Vespid to, they may wore some parts, but I never saw Vespid in Fire Warror armor.
One other thing, to let you understand me more clearly. Take for example one Mexican, he want's to join US army, fight for America and spread their influence. Will he be accepted? No, because he is a Mexican. US army only accepts people from US, have it's own training, equipment and strategies. But the Mexican can still join Mexican army.
Now exchange Mexican for Kroot and US army for Tau.
The point of this explanation is to present that Kroot and Vespid and Demiur are not part of the Tau Fire Caste. And that we should be only counting Fire Warriors into this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:
How so? Allied auxilliaries have been mainstays in armies throughout history. Heck, even US pilot-volunteers were flying missions with the RAF before the US entered WW2. Auxilliary attachments usually provide something that is lacking in the main force (kroot stealth, vespid mobility).

Those US pilots didn't fight in the mane of the British Empire or the British Queen. They where only helping the British, but they where bot part of their military - they where allies.

The back of the third edition codex had the approximate numbers of each sept. I don't have the book with me, but I believe it listed the major sept worlds (T'au, Tau'n, Vior'la) as having a population of > one hundred million+ . Whether that means 10 billion is still considered >100M but in the same bracket, I don't know.

If we consider that 100M is a decent sized sept world, and that population is spread equally between the different castes, then we get 25M Tau Fire Caste per significant sept. Not including auxiliaries, or other Castes who help with military effort. Going from this, we get to a number of about 200M.

From what we know of Fire Caste, Tau enter service at about 10 yrs, and have a formal trial-by-fire every 4 years for promotion (informally, a significant campaign can also count as a trial, advancing warriors in less time). IIRC, a Shas'O who survives 2 trials can leave active service and join military council or even retire (anecdote from 3rd Ed codex suggests that Aun'Shi was old and considering retirement at 40).

As others have said though, these are just assumptions heaped on speculation heaped on anecdotes. According to real life populations and military engagements, these numbers are pitifully low - as above, WWII had hundreds of millions of troops. Military figures in 40k fluff are absurdly wrong - each hive city has over a billion people living in it, and tithes a hundred million soldiers per year, yet the number of space marines in the entire galaxy is (around) 1 million? Less than a million IG is considered enough to defend a planet, yet the crew of a single Imperial Navy Cruiser is over 10,000?

At one stage I wrote my own Tau Fluff that introduced new ranks to the Fire Caste (more ranks above shas'o for generals who wouldn't participate on the front lines), each of whom was in command of (on average) 8 Shas of the rank below. For example, a Shas'Ui is in charge of 8 Shas'la. A Shas'vre is in charge of 8 Shas'ui and by extension 64 Shas'la... and so on and so on, such that the '5 star general' equivalent - the highest normal rank - commands approximately 17 Million Shas, which amounts to one PDF for a 2nd phase world.

>mfw I saw the OP's name

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:There are only around seven full sept worlds, which on the outside might approach several billion in population. The rest of the septs would probably be closer to Cadian levels, in the low hundreds of millions on the outside. The remainder are small colonies with populations in the thousands.

However, regardless of the population, fire warriors can't number anywhere near even one billion, as that would mean there would be around five million available for every last colony if only 50% were in combat-ready condition. As they only field them in the low thousands or tens of thousands in major conflicts, this is clearly not the case, as one would expect hundreds of thousands for even minor skirmishes, let alone major engagements.

This means either their population is significantly lower, the fire caste makes up a relatively small percentage of their population, or only a very small percentage of fire caste meet the physical and psychological requirements to enter the military.

23 actually, 23 septs:

T'au
Tau'n
D'yanoi
Bork'an
Dal'yth
Fal'shia
Vior'la
Sa'cea

Au'taal
N'dras
Ke'lshan
Elsy'eir
Tash'var
Vash'ya
T'olku

Ksi'm'yen
Fi'rios
Me'lek
Es'tau
T'ros
Sha'draig
Ka'mais
Ho'sarn

Ya.

Ya.

I know. I win.

"Sept" doesn't mean "fully developed colony", it's more like a regional capital and trade hub, and there are only a handful that can be considered major worlds. Apparently there are population figures for them though, and they're significantly lower than I expected. So there is that.

Anyways, by your logic, every single U.S. soldier currently in the military should be present at each and every engagement "because they have the numbers".

No, it would be more like expecting more than 15 soldiers to be deployed to Afghanistan. Because, you know, that would be the same percentage of the US military forces (counting the Army and Marine Corps) that 9,000 firewarriors would be of the Fire Caste, were so much as 500,000,000 fit for service.


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Trasvi wrote:As others have said though, these are just assumptions heaped on speculation heaped on anecdotes. According to real life populations and military engagements, these numbers are pitifully low - as above, WWII had hundreds of millions of troops. Military figures in 40k fluff are absurdly wrong -

It's actually a nice extrapolation of trends towards a smaller, more elite force with a great deal of mobility and support, mixed with a total lack of concern for the lives of any population that violently opposes them and the capability to simply annihilate said opposing population. Not only can a platoon or two of Guard slaughter your ill-armed mob of thousands, they can simply obliterate your entire hometown with orbital warships or artillery emplacements hundreds of miles away, which you can do nothing to retaliate against.

each hive city has over a billion people living in it, and tithes a hundred million soldiers per year, yet the number of space marines in the entire galaxy is (around) 1 million?

Space Marine Chapters aren't Imperial Military, they're rogue states which are tolerated for reasons of tradition. And it's not one hundred million soldiers a year per hive, those are extraordinary figures for Armageddon, which has a population of several hundred billion.

Less than a million IG is considered enough to defend a planet, yet the crew of a single Imperial Navy Cruiser is over 10,000?

A single cruiser could turn a continent into glass in a few weeks of sustained bombardment. It should be noted that an Imperial cruiser is to a modern aircraft carrier what a modern aircraft carrier is to the average car. I can't find anything on their general crew size, which annoys me greatly as I know I've seen or heard rough figures before, but as far as I can remember it's certainly over one thousand. And an Imperial cruiser is hundreds of times that size.


So I think the numbers generally make sense when one thinks about them enough; they're not radically wrong, at least.

My brain hurts from reading so much nonsense.
If you don't care about the Tau background so much as to read just a few pages in the Codex, why bother posting statements like "Kroot are members of the fire caste" or "Vespid are completely integrated with the Tau".

Kilkrazy wrote:This thread is a waste of time.

I agree.

Being new to this argument, I have to ask: why is this a 'hotly debated topic'? I cant even see it a anything worth arguing in the first place....

SickSix wrote:Being new to this argument, I have to ask: why is this a 'hotly debated topic'? I cant even see it a anything worth arguing in the first place....

Anything that deals with the Tau or IG automatically involves both.

Kroothawk wrote:
If you don't care about the Tau background so much as to read just a few pages in the Codex, why bother posting statements like "Kroot are members of the fire caste" or "Vespid are completely integrated with the Tau".

Because the codex states that the Vespid are integrated with the Tau Empire, and in the case of the latter, it can be logically argued that Kroot are part of the Fire caste military.

Here's me thinking we were talking about THE FIRE CASTE, and not the entire Tau military as a whole. The Kroot, and other allied races, whilst part of the Tau Military, are not members of the caste itself.