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Oh, for heavens sake, let biccat not play against FW stuff. If he doesn't want to, that's fine, it's his game too. He's not preventing you from using FW stuff, just from using it against him. I think this thread shows that there's a pretty even split and that the majority will accept FW in any freindly game. Warring against biccat won't change his mind.

I have no problem with Forgeworld models/rules and neither should anyone else.

If there is a problem it's with individuals who take it all too seriously. We all know 40k isn't balanced, so I don't see how a Forgeworld army or unit will break the game. I think GW should have more 'official' cohesion between the design studio and forge world, it would make sense and also stop arguments like this. Of course you should ask your opponent, that's just courtesy & in a 'friendly' game I don't see why anyone would object. In Tournaments it may be different, in that case it's up to the tournament organisers to supply the information pack with clear rules.

I would allow for forgeowrld model simply because I loathe the GW "baby-sized" Avatar.

My friends wont allow me to use the FW one.

Why wouldn't anyone let you play with the Forgeworld Avatar? It's an awesome model of an Avatar and it's BIGGER, which means they can shoot at it with more stuff? If you played with an Epic one, or as Grot6pointed out the old-old one, then I'd like to see their reaction

Apocalypse is a "100% offiicial Expansion", but I'm not required to allow you to field a 2000 point titan against my 2000 point army.

Could be fun though

Biccat, I am afraid that you have misunderstood my intentions (or I have sucked at expressing them...as always, that is a possibility)

biccat wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:One side says; "I feel that I am entitled to X because of Y", with Y being the more ridiculous. This is usually followed by the further arguments correctly presented by you as being irrelevant.

That is the "I am entitled to play against you in a normal 40k game because I bought the models."

Sorry, that doesn't fly in my world. If you want to play against me either have a 40k list or work it out with me in advance.

Same goes for homemade codices.

I agree with you. That doesn't fly at all as an argument. This is the reason that I pointed out that Y was rediculous.

biccat wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:The other side says; "Imperial Armour is a 100% official Expansion to Warhammer 40K and should be treated as such".

And that side is wrong.

Apocalypse is a "100% offiicial Expansion", but I'm not required to allow you to field a 2000 point titan against my 2000 point army.

I was always disinclined to accept FW rules for the same reason I never accepted Cities of Death, Plant Strike, and Apocalypse rules. That is, I liked the core game, and had no desire to dabble in and learn the questionably tested expansions.

As long as they ask I don't really care. Long as it isn't something that belongs in apoc I am more than likely to let them use it.

LunaHound wrote:For example, Apocalypse is 100% official expansion, but we sure cant use their formations in a normal game.

That's the inescapable bottom line. The rest seems like noise and smoke, to me at least.

That is what I have been trying to say in the last four threads concerning this very subject.

Imperial Armour is a 100% official Expansion.....and to play with an expansion, any expansion at all, it requires your opponents consent/agreement.

Manchu wrote:

LunaHound wrote:For example, Apocalypse is 100% official expansion, but we sure cant use their formations in a normal game.

That's the inescapable bottom line. The rest seems like noise and smoke, to me at least.

But isn't this missing the point?

The thread is about FW models and the rules that go with them in a standard game. Apoc is a game expansion, Super heavies and formations are part of this game expansion. We are talking about a standard game, not Apoc, not cities of death, not Planetstrike, using the FOC as outlined in the brb, same rules as in the brb, but using models and associated rules from IA books. For example, someone turning up to play against you using the Red Scorpions and their associated rules from the IA book. No super heavies, no formations, no strategic assets or whatever else you get in the expansions. So essentially turning up with a Vanilla Space marine chapter with a few exceptions to their Chapter tactics rules in order to differentiate themselves from the gazillion other SM chapters there are.

biccat wrote:
Apocalypse is a "100% offiicial Expansion", but I'm not required to allow you to field a 2000 point titan against my 2000 point army.

I see your point, but once again, this would be legal if you were playing Apoc, but in a standard game the FOC dictates that you have to have 1 HQ and 2 Troops as standard, as there are no Super heavy Slots in the FOC, in a standard game, no one can field a single titan against your whole army. It seems you are confusing the expansions with the units, which is not what this thread is about. I'm not trying to prod or troll you, I understand that using FW stuff is something of an anathema to you.

The_Happy_Pig wrote:

biccat wrote:
Apocalypse is a "100% offiicial Expansion", but I'm not required to allow you to field a 2000 point titan against my 2000 point army.

I see your point, but once again, this would be legal if you were playing Apoc, but in a standard game the FOC dictates that you have to have 1 HQ and 2 Troops as standard, as there are no Super heavy Slots in the FOC, in a standard game, no one can field a single titan against your whole army. It seems you are confusing the expansions with the units, which is not what this thread is about. I'm not trying to prod or troll you, I understand that using FW stuff is something of an anathema to you.

In either case, you're asking to play with an expansion to 40k. Whether it's Apocalypse, Cities of Death, Killteam, or some homebrew rules, it's a change to the game. I'm not interested in playing "Forgeworld 40k" any more than I am in playing "Apocalypse 40k" (again, at least without some prior preparation).

It's not that FW stuff is "anathema" to me, they make some decent models and their stuff is generally cross-compatible with 40k as a proxy/replacement model. It's simply that FW stuff is part of a different game set, and when I'm looking for a game of 40k, I don't expect (and I'm not particularly interested in) a game of "Forgeworld 40k."

But, The_Happy_Pig, when using units from Imperial Armour you ARE using an expansion. It is no longer a "normal" game.

There are simply no rules for using Imperial Armour in a "normal" game. There ARE rules for playing with an expansion, which is just what Imperial Armour is.

Nobody is confusing expansions with units as the units are part of the expansion. Just like you cannot field Spearhead-formations outside of a game played with the Spearhead Expansion, you cannot field Imperial Armour unit outside of a game played with the Imperial Armour Expansion.
Both of which requires your opponent to agree to play such a game.

Steelmage99 wrote:But, The_Happy_Pig, when using units from Imperial Armour you ARE using an expansion. It is no longer a "normal" game.

There are simply no rules for using Imperial Armour in a "normal" game.

From IA 9 - At the start of the Tyrant's legion section:

This army list is intended to be used with the FOC as found in the 40k rulebook depending on the mission you will be playing. Each chart is split into 5 categories that correspond to the sections shown here in the army list, and each category has one or more boxes shown. Each light toned box indicates that you may take one choice from that selection of the army list, while a dark tone means that you must make a compulsory choice from that selection.

From the Space wolves codex:

This army list is used in conjunction with a FOC from a scenario. Each chart is split into 5 categories that correspond to the sections shown here in the army list, and each category has one or more boxes shown. Each grey-toned box indicates that you may take one choice from that selection of the army list, while a dark tone means that you must make a compulsory choice from that selection.

This army list is primarily designed for use with the standard missions from the 40k rulebook. We have included the chart for the standard missions below. This army list may of course be used in conjunction with other missions and scenarios that use the FOC, allowing you access to different types of army for a different gaming experience.

From the Chaos Demons codex:

This army list is used in conjunction with the FOC below. Which is the one used for standard missions. Each chart is split into 5 categories that correspond to the sections shown here in the army list, and each category has one or more boxes shown. Each box indicates that you may take one choice from that selection of the army list, while a dark tone means indicates a compulsory selection - one you must take.

From the Dark Eldar Codex:

This army list is usually used in conjunction with a FOC from a scenario. Each chart is split into 5 categories that correspond to the sections shown here in the army list, and each category has one or more boxes shown. Each grey-toned box indicates that you may take one choice from that selection of the army list, while a dark tone means that you must make a compulsory choice from that selection.

This army list is primarily designed for use with the standard missions from the 40k rulebook. We have included the chart for the standard missions below. This army list may of course be used in conjunction with other missions and scenarios that use the FOC, allowing you access to different types of army for a different gaming experience, but please note that play balance may be affected if they are used for anything other than a standat=rd mission.

From IA 8, The Ork Dredd Mob army list:

This army list is intended to be used with the FOC as found in the 40k rulebook depending on the mission you will be playing. Each chart is split into 5 categories that correspond to the sections shown here in the army list, and each category has one or more boxes shown. Each light toned box indicates that you may take one choice from that selection of the army list, while a dark tone means that you must make a compulsory choice from that selection.

I could go on...

There are rules allowing you to use them in a 'normal game' (By normal game I'm assuming that you mean one of the standard missions as outlined in the brb), there is nothing in the IA books stating that the standard missions change by the inclusion of an IA force. Feel free to let me know how the dynamic of a standard game changes by fielding the Red Scorpions for instance, or the Charcaradons, or an Ork Dredd Mob. Or at least let me know what constitutes a 'normal' game.

But I do see your point. I personally prefer a bit more diversity in my games, I've only been playing for a couple of years and am already bored of the very few builds of SM there are out there and the fact that they are only different from each other by virtue of what colour they have been painted. I'm bored of the 2 Ork builds that everyone plays, along with the very few builds that people seem to field of the other armies. I prefer something a bit fluffier, maybe not quite so competitive as a true Codex side. But I find that it gives a more satisfying and above all, fun game. This would be why I choose to play with friends as opposed to the aggressive, rules lawyering power gamers that frequent the local gaming clubs.

The_Happy_Pig wrote:

Manchu wrote:

LunaHound wrote:For example, Apocalypse is 100% official expansion, but we sure cant use their formations in a normal game.

That's the inescapable bottom line. The rest seems like noise and smoke, to me at least.

But isn't this missing the point?

Yes and No. Mostly no.

I see what you mean. We all agree that Apoc is an exapnsion. But there are some who argue the IA books are not. The reason I still say "mostly no" is that the argument that rules for units in IA books are not an expansion makes no sense. If they were not an expansion they would be published in Citadel codices rather than IA books by GW's subsidiary FW. (That's a big difference, as anyone who knows about market supply logistics will tell you.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly, biccat hits the nail on the head by comparing IA books with homemade codices. After all, a homemade book could plausible have the same or better quality of rules and playtesting as a product sold by either Citadel or Forge World.

The_Happy_Pig wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:But, The_Happy_Pig, when using units from Imperial Armour you ARE using an expansion. It is no longer a "normal" game.

There are simply no rules for using Imperial Armour in a "normal" game.

From IA 9 - At the start of the Tyrant's legion section:

This army list is intended to be used with the FOC as found in the 40k rulebook depending on the mission you will be playing. Each chart is split into 5 categories that correspond to the sections shown here in the army list, and each category has one or more boxes shown. Each light toned box indicates that you may take one choice from that selection of the army list, while a dark tone means that you must make a compulsory choice from that selection.
.......

Forgive me for cutting a lot of your quotes out. It is not for lack of respect, but rather for nicer formatting.

The texts you quote are not permission to "use at will". It is rules telling you HOW to use the army WHEN you have agreed with your opponent to do so.
It is much like using the argument; "The unit says that it is a Heavy Support in an Ork army" as a way to be allowed to field it at will. It is not. It is simply instructions on how to field it when allowed to.

Missions have nothing to do with the legality and use of expansions.

The Happy Pig: Also, the Space Wolves Codex, Dark Elder Codex, etc. are published by Games Workshop. Imperial Armor is published by Forge World, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Games Workshop.

They are separate entities, albeit nested and intertwined.

This is an interesting topic to me not because I really care either way but because it's interesting how people do feel the need to set boundaries, albeit somewhat arbitrarily.

If we accept that the entity 'Forge World' has the authority to speak on rules with the same authority as other branches of Games Workshop, doesn't this mean that every Store Employee's rulings are also binding? They are speaking as representatives of Games Workshop as well.

The issue is that ForgeWorld units are often a surprise. They have special rules (not all of them of course) not found else where and therefore change the dynamic of the game. For tournaments this is a bad thing, for friendly games its a welcomed change.

CageUF wrote:The issue is that ForgeWorld units are often a surprise. They have special rules (not all of them of course) not found else where and therefore change the dynamic of the game. For tournaments this is a bad thing, for friendly games its a welcomed change.

I can accept this as a reasonable argument.

surprises are good though, otheriwse it is all becoming totally boring and playing against same armies all the time..

Question for those who seem to deem IA units anathema to their gaming experience - during the dark days of the 4th ed Imperial Guard book, the Griffon, Leman Russ Exterminator and (IIRC - I can't remember where my 3rd ed IG book is to check) Leman Russ Vanquisher were removed from the Codex for no apparent reason. The only place the rules were in print were in IA1, but they had been in the previous codex (and the one before that, in the case of the Griffon).

Assuming that the variant shells for the Griffon weren't used - meaning you were effectively running the 3rd ed version of the tank(s) - would you have objected to me running an Imperial Guard army using one of them?

So, it's kind of like asking . . . what if I'd rather use the old Nids dex in pick-up games than the current one?

- if the other party agrees in advance, sure it's okay

- if I just show up and demand to use the old dex, probably a bit unreasonable

No. It's not like that at all.

One is an outdated part of 40K that has been superseded by a later set of rules. The other is just a regular part of 40K. The only caveat to that would be if the FW rules themselves had been superseded by later rules (such as IA1 and IA2, which have update PDFs on the FW website).

The_Happy_Pig wrote:

Manchu wrote:

LunaHound wrote:For example, Apocalypse is 100% official expansion, but we sure cant use their formations in a normal game.

That's the inescapable bottom line. The rest seems like noise and smoke, to me at least.

But isn't this missing the point?

The thread is about FW models and the rules that go with them in a standard game. Apoc is a game expansion, Super heavies and formations are part of this game expansion. We are talking about a standard game, not Apoc, not cities of death, not Planetstrike, using the FOC as outlined in the brb, same rules as in the brb, but using models and associated rules from IA books. For example, someone turning up to play against you using the Red Scorpions and their associated rules from the IA book. No super heavies, no formations, no strategic assets or whatever else you get in the expansions. So essentially turning up with a Vanilla Space marine chapter with a few exceptions to their Chapter tactics rules in order to differentiate themselves from the gazillion other SM chapters there are.

Like i mentioned in earlier post in previous page , we arnt talking about count as.
Im sure all the extra chapter Marine kits , DKOK ( i used this example earlier ) could easily count as the counter parts and be used in the appropriate GW SM . IG army books.

Im talking about the FW units that arnt in our normal GW codex. anywhere from Blight Drones to Super Heavy Tanks to Small Eldar Titans to Large Reaver Titans.

You guys claimed, sure some of the smaller tanks are over costed hence its fine , then how about the larger Titans?
where does one draw the line? who holds the qualification to draw the line? There are no consistency!
Im not against FW , i LOVE FW items, but there needs to be pre planned ,designed , and printed by FW that they created those with Normal 40k games in mind , not just to go with the other FW expansion units.

All the GW expansions: Imperial Armor, Cities of Death , Apocalypse , Planet strike holds water legally 100% you say? Then lets look at this in a reversed angle.
Would you be able to field an army with units that is mixed with all the expansions combined together? ( hypothetically speaking , "yes" because like you guys said a billion times already, "anything s fine if you agreed to it with your opponent")
but realistically speaking , "No" anyone that did that asking for a game, you'll be laughed at. Why? Because then it gets painfully obvious that they arnt meant to be mixed outside their expansion games into a normal GW game.

So would you mix GW army book into the different expansion games? You can? why? Because they are designed with that in mind. GW army codex can be mixed with all those expansions perfectly , but not vice versa , why?
the "why" is what most of you are missing in amidst the confusion of " a game needs 2 player to agree with to begin with... "

Its 2 completely 2 separate issue some of you are attempting to mix into this argument. Its also why more than half of the posters here kept bringing up "home brewed rules to be compared with FW IA....
they hold the same amount of water" under that theory of 2 players agreeing. "

If my opponent prefers not to, I'll leave them out.

Otherwise, RHINOX FRENZY!

Mr Mystery wrote:If my opponent prefers not to, I'll leave them out.

Otherwise, RHINOX FRENZY!

Well according to half of the posts here , i should be able to use my Ogre Kingdom Rhinox in my 40k Game , as long as i talked to my opponent before game.

No Luna. You know better than that.

If you have rules for them, homebrewed or otherwise, I couldn't give a Monkies. Shakes things up a bit.

Mr Mystery wrote:If you have rules for them, homebrewed or otherwise, I couldn't give a Monkies. Shakes things up a bit.

Ya but if im telling you that my home brewd rules are as legal as your codex you are holding in your hand , what would you say

H.B.M.C. wrote:No Luna. You know better than that.

No i dont , because you guys are mixing 2 things into 1

My opinion:

I would expect a game against a stranger to use the appropriate GW armybook or codex. If they asked me about using a forgeworld unique vehicle or character, I would likely agree but not mentally count the game as 'legitimate' as these weird and wonderful things tend to be strangely costed and have unbalancing rules.

There is also a huge huge bias towards imperial vehicles, especially tanks. Dark Eldar, Necrons etc are at a woeful disadvantage in this regard.

Apocalypse is a different matter and where the super heavy vehicles should be seen.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The other is just a regular part of 40K.

Nothing anywhere ever supports this outside of your own group's approach. Conversely, the tournament rules, publication methodology, the text itself, hell, even the corporate structure of the company supports the idea that FW rules are an expansion. I don't believe you're making a good faith argument.

LunaHound wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:If you have rules for them, homebrewed or otherwise, I couldn't give a Monkies. Shakes things up a bit.

Ya but if im telling you that my home brewd rules are as legal as your codex you are holding in your hand , what would you say

H.B.M.C. wrote:No Luna. You know better than that.

No i dont , because you guys are mixing 2 things into 1

To be perfectly honest Luna, I'd likely fly off on a tangent muttering about 'legal', 'it's a bloody game' and 'sodding tournament mentality ruining the hobby grumble grumble' then realise you're not actually an asshat, and suggest the only way to find out if the rules you've written are fun and fair, is to play a few games, which table do you want to use?

Mr Mystery wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:If you have rules for them, homebrewed or otherwise, I couldn't give a Monkies. Shakes things up a bit.

Ya but if im telling you that my home brewd rules are as legal as your codex you are holding in your hand , what would you say

H.B.M.C. wrote:No Luna. You know better than that.

No i dont , because you guys are mixing 2 things into 1

To be perfectly honest Luna, I'd likely fly off on a tangent muttering about 'legal', 'it's a bloody game' and 'sodding tournament mentality ruining the hobby grumble grumble' then realise you're not actually an asshat, and suggest the only way to find out if the rules you've written are fun and fair, is to play a few games, which table do you want to use?

Ah im glad you brought this up. Some of you view me as been an asshat and a nit picker in this case. And think i keep asking in this topic to be a pain in everyone's ass?

No. Honestly to God, no. I see because this IS a game , there should be some concrete rules that makes it easier on players to decide upon.

Think chess for example , every piece have their specific rules, imagine you introducing a new piece with its own movement and are ules . How do you think it would be effecting the game ?,
even if the 2 sides agreed to it? Now, take that new piece and ask everyone else to game with it, and from that day on, everyday , keep using that piece as part of your chess "force" ? lol i dunno what they are called -_-