Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Kroothawk wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:The only thing relevant to this discussion is that FACT that Imperial Armour is a 100% official Expansion to the game of Warhammer 40K.....with all that entails.

Right, and some opponents are fine with playing that expension, some want to play the regular game. Therefore ask. And be ready to show (real book) and explain all rules and units.

We are in total and utter agreement.

If intent is actually expressed isn't RAW?

Quibble all you wish, my dear Texan, whether or not GW allows FW units in their tournaments is actually highly instructive as to the fairness involved. Again, I refer you to mikhaila's post.

Manchu wrote:If intent is actually expressed isn't RAW?

Quibble all you wish, my dear Texan, whether or not GW allows FW units in their tournaments is actually highly instructive as to the fairness involved. Again, I refer you to mikhaila's post.

GW also doesn't permit flyers (except for DE now apparently), limits lists via maximum points, and historically didn't include characters. Are those widely viewed as unfair as well? Is GW saying 3,000 point games aren't fair?

It seems that the real issue we are experiencing isn't actually a "Forge World Issue" but a "competitive play issue".

That's unfortunate.

You mean except for IG, SM, and DE (so far), right?

But yes, pretty much so. GW is aware of the limitations of the 40k rules system and has structured tournaments or released expansions (like Apocalypse) accordingly. The IA books are all expansions, as has been noted several times already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Worglock wrote:It seems that the real issue we are experiencing isn't actually a "Forge World Issue" but a "competitive play issue".

That's unfortunate.

How so? I'm not a competitive player myself but I have no beef with those who want to do so.

Last year Warhammer World hosted an event called Battlefields which allowed FW army lists etc. Whilst it was not billed as a "tournament", it still awarded prizes for 100% win records and other "standard tournament achievements".

Warhammer World will soon be hosting Badab War, based around IA9 and 10. And neither book is required to play as many standard Codices are on the list of approved armies.

So yeah, GW head office hosting events with FW in.

The "opponent's permission" text hasn't been in FW books for a long time.

The books are sold on the GW website: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440351a&rootCatGameStyle=books

TBH this topic always makes me sad, and is a shining example of evrything the hobby shouldn't be. People hiding behind internet myths and poor excuses so they can say "I'll use all my toys, but you can't use all yours".

It's amazing how everyone harps on about this golden era before GW became the Evil Empire, yet they don't embody the attitude that came with it of trying new scenarios, new rules, having a go at different ways of playing etc. But we all want Chapter Approved back so we can..... not let people use all these interesting variant rules we demand....?

Baragash wrote:Last year Warhammer World hosted an event called Battlefields which allowed FW army lists etc. Whilst it was not billed as a "tournament", it still awarded prizes for 100% win records and other "standard tournament achievements".

Warhammer World will soon be hosting Badab War, based around IA9 and 10. And neither book is required to play as many standard Codices are on the list of approved armies.

So yeah, GW head office hosting events with FW in.

The "opponent's permission" text hasn't been in FW books for a long time.

The books are sold on the GW website: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440351a&rootCatGameStyle=books

TBH this topic always makes me sad, and is a shining example of evrything the hobby shouldn't be. People hiding behind internet myths and poor excuses so they can say "I'll use all my toys, but you can't use all yours".

It's amazing how everyone harps on about this golden era before GW became the Evil Empire, yet they don't embody the attitude that came with it of trying new scenarios, new rules, having a go at different ways of playing etc. But we all want Chapter Approved back so we can..... not let people use all these interesting variant rules we demand....?

Again, I'm all for FW in a non tournament setting. I am all for FW in a tournament setting if reviewed by the TO and excludes flyers/superheavies. Both flyers/superheavies have their place, hte game just becomes all about that item, which is fun but not in a tournament setting.

How is it an internet myth? I've never been into any LGS or GW store that has a copy of any IA book on hand. I've never seen a FW model used as anything but a proxy at any event, whether a tournament or even a friendly game. And, yes, there are no official events on the tournament circuit that allow FW models as anything other than proxies. Whatever they do in Nottingham to promote a FW product line (like this Badab event) is pretty well beside the point here.

Worglock wrote:Ok. So we're back to the mythical "Forge World is Overpowered". So, I'm going to set my "surprised face" to the side for a moment and take you at your word that you honestly believe that somehow, somewhere, sometime they made a non-Apoc unit that really is "overpowered".

So, what is it? I need a few of them. Because somehow, in buying every Forge World book ever made, I missed it.

Some of the units may be overpowered. I don't know, because I'm not interested in running 50-100 games to playtest FW just to determine if it's appropriate in scale to GW's official rules. And I'm not interested in running through your "codex" to figure out what I think is OP and having to argue for half an hour on every point.

FW requires permission, I choose to withhold it.

Worglock wrote:This is my amazed face.

It looks a lot like your not-surprised face, tbh.

Worglock wrote:Remember: Since we're talking about Tournament play (which is just bad, but that's another thread) the difficulty level is "No Apocalypse". So that means, no super heavies, no Tyranid Giant Gribblies of Doom and (I think), no flyers.

We're talking Tournament play?

krazynadechukr wrote:What is your opinion on FW models &/or lists in 2k or less (no superheavies) games?

Nope, guess we're not.

Worglock wrote:And btw: if you're playing Thousand Sons, you should do pretty good against the average Speds Mahreenz player.

Er...right. Unless they happen to bring some long-range firepower, rhinos, assault troops, dreadnoughts, or just about anything else that either a) avoids my AP3 or b) can stay out of 24" range.

biccat wrote:

Worglock wrote:Ok. So we're back to the mythical "Forge World is Overpowered". So, I'm going to set my "surprised face" to the side for a moment and take you at your word that you honestly believe that somehow, somewhere, sometime they made a non-Apoc unit that really is "overpowered".

So, what is it? I need a few of them. Because somehow, in buying every Forge World book ever made, I missed it.

Some of the units may be overpowered. I don't know, because I'm not interested in running 50-100 games to playtest FW just to determine if it's appropriate in scale to GW's official rules. And I'm not interested in running through your "codex" to figure out what I think is OP and having to argue for half an hour on every point.

FW requires permission, I choose to withhold it.

Worglock wrote:This is my amazed face.

It looks a lot like your not-surprised face, tbh.

Worglock wrote:Remember: Since we're talking about Tournament play (which is just bad, but that's another thread) the difficulty level is "No Apocalypse". So that means, no super heavies, no Tyranid Giant Gribblies of Doom and (I think), no flyers.

We're talking Tournament play?

krazynadechukr wrote:What is your opinion on FW models &/or lists in 2k or less (no superheavies) games?

Nope, guess we're not.

Worglock wrote:And btw: if you're playing Thousand Sons, you should do pretty good against the average Speds Mahreenz player.

Er...right. Unless they happen to bring some long-range firepower, rhinos, assault troops, dreadnoughts, or just about anything else that either a) avoids my AP3 or b) can stay out of 24" range.

Wait, so you have these issues in NON tournament gaming? Really?

Can we please not use our personal army preferences out of the discussion, it is off-topic.

Baragash wrote:

The "opponent's permission" text hasn't been in FW books for a long time.

Correct, but it has this one;



How do we play with expansions? Do we;

A. Show up and surprise our opponent with a unit from one of the expansions?

Or

B. Agree with our opponent that we are going to play an expansion-game?

Frazzled wrote:Wait, so you have these issues in NON tournament gaming? Really?

See Steelmage99's point.

Someone shows up at the shop with a FW list? Sorry, not interested.

A friend asks a few days ahead of time if I want to play against his FW list? Sure, that gives me a chance to look over the list so I'm not completely surprised come game-time.

Manchu wrote:How is it an internet myth? I've never been into any LGS or GW store that has a copy of any IA book on hand. I've never seen a FW model used as anything but a proxy at any event, whether a tournament or even a friendly game. And, yes, there are no official events on the tournament circuit that allow FW models as anything other than proxies. Whatever they do in Nottingham to promote a FW product line (like this Badab event) is pretty well beside the point here.

-An exception to the rule, but I have the IA books for sale in my stores. They are available to order now from Direct Sales. Most LGS either a) don't know that or b) don't order them due to the high cost and low discount.

-Mechanicon allows IA army lists in it's friday night event. We'll be allowing IA lists for SVDM next february. In both cases, it is assumed and checked that a player owns the appropriate IA books, and the permission is given so that players may use their FW models. You can't just use Cadians as DkoK, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dysartes wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Ok, line up 4 krootox, then put 3 krootox on top of them, then two. Now have 5 kroot on the two krootox, then 4, 3, and 2. Cover the whole thing in branches. I'll stand on top with the Evisorator and we'll sneak up on the flyers! No one expects the Kroot Assault Pyramid!

OK, mik, I've *got* to see you model this one

Time to start seeing what's floating around the game room...hmmm....

I would allow for forgeowrld model simply because I loathe the GW "baby-sized" Avatar.

My friends wont allow me to use the FW one.

My view is that models that substantially change the core rules of the game, such as Apoc formations, Flyers, Super-heavies and Titan equivalents require prior warning and consent to field. This is in the interest of maintaining the Golden rule.

The supplementary units and army lists that FW provides, such as IG artillery, Ork Dreadnoughts, Tau Battlesuits etc do not. I have no experience with the Tyranid codex. I don't know what the rules are, what builds you can field or how Catalyst works. But thats fine. I'm sure I can figure it out in the time it takes to play- and I have your codex there if I believe you are... mistaken. FW units simply broaden your unit choices. So long as you have a copy of the rules governing them, then thats fine with me.

Mr.Church13 wrote:I would allow for forgeowrld model simply because I loathe the GW "baby-sized" Avatar.

My friends wont allow me to use the FW one.

Um, why? It has no different rules over the codex version. Just to piss them off, and to prove a point, get the Rogue Trader one (there's one right now on eBay here) It's about the size of a standard infantry model, then they'll beg you to use the FW one as it's so easy to get covers saves with the RT one.

Mr.Church13 wrote:I would allow for forgeowrld model simply because I loathe the GW "baby-sized" Avatar.

My friends wont allow me to use the FW one.

I have a feeling this will not be a problem in a few years.

Mr.Church13 wrote:I would allow for forgeowrld model simply because I loathe the GW "baby-sized" Avatar.

My friends wont allow me to use the FW one.

Why? Using a larger model is not considered cheating, if I remember well. I recently got a FW biker boss for my orks, and even though I've not fielded him yet, my friends would let me use it. It's not exactly modelling to my advantage... the guy is far bigger than the average ork biker, let alone the average warboss!

Also, as far as I know using FW replacements for dex units is widely accepted. It's using monsters like the Caestus Ram or the Land Raider Achilles what usually causes all the drama.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, ninja'd

Proxy the models from forge world you like, why do you need a special set of rules to enjoy the game. Also in a friendly environment, why would you purposely interject a semi-controversial thing like a different companies army book? All it takes is one sketchy unit and everyones up in arms, and the scene loses "friendly".

saxx wrote:Proxy the models from forge world you like, why do you need a special set of rules to enjoy the game. Also in a friendly environment, why would you purposely interject a semi-controversial thing like a different companies army book? All it takes is one sketchy unit and everyones up in arms, and the scene loses "friendly".

FW are the same entity as GW. They are not rival companies by any means. I have no idea why people keep thinking this.

Manchu wrote:How is it an internet myth? I've never been into any LGS or GW store that has a copy of any IA book on hand. I've never seen a FW model used as anything but a proxy at any event, whether a tournament or even a friendly game. And, yes, there are no official events on the tournament circuit that allow FW models as anything other than proxies. Whatever they do in Nottingham to promote a FW product line (like this Badab event) is pretty well beside the point here.

I know that GW Sheffield used to carry the IA line, but it's been a few years since I've been in there. I know Warhammer World does (or it did as of April last year), but I get the impression you're going to say it doesn't count.

You're spot-on.

Dysartes wrote:

Manchu wrote:How is it an internet myth? I've never been into any LGS or GW store that has a copy of any IA book on hand. I've never seen a FW model used as anything but a proxy at any event, whether a tournament or even a friendly game. And, yes, there are no official events on the tournament circuit that allow FW models as anything other than proxies. Whatever they do in Nottingham to promote a FW product line (like this Badab event) is pretty well beside the point here.

I know that GW Sheffield used to carry the IA line, but it's been a few years since I've been in there. I know Warhammer World does (or it did as of April last year), but I get the impression you're going to say it doesn't count.

I'll back you up on this. As of right now, GW Lincoln has open copies of all the IA books up to number 8.

I'm not even slightly surprised that UK locations carry IA books. One wonders why only a few of them do, actually. (Well, not really.) Here in the states, however, FW is very nearly mythical.

Grimtuff wrote:

saxx wrote:Proxy the models from forge world you like, why do you need a special set of rules to enjoy the game. Also in a friendly environment, why would you purposely interject a semi-controversial thing like a different companies army book? All it takes is one sketchy unit and everyones up in arms, and the scene loses "friendly".

FW are the same entity as GW. They are not rival companies by any means. I have no idea why people keep thinking this.

The electrodes aren't firing properly?

Manchu wrote:@H.B.M.C.: A game requires some sense of fairness and in 40k incorporating FW units is widely considered beyond the pale, as you well know.

And the reasons for that are pretty fething thin. They're 'unfair'? They're 'unbalanced'? No they're not. Most of them suck. A few are over powered. Just like a lot of regular Codices.

Manchu wrote:Dismissing someone's concerns about fairness as "nonsense" is itself a pretty thin argument.

'Cept I didn't. There's a difference between declaring something 'nonsense' and declaring something 'nonsense' and explaining why it's nonsense. Try reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mikhaila wrote:-An exception to the rule, but I have the IA books for sale in my stores.

The GW up the road from me sells them as well. IA books are a permanent part of the GWOZ range.

H.B.M.C. wrote:There's a difference between declaring something 'nonsense' and declaring something 'nonsense' and explaining why it's nonsense. Try reading.

Try reading? What a brilliant suggestion! I'll do that right away:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Again with this 'normally expected' nonsense. That's a thin argument. Who determines what's normal? Is normal a location thing? No one in my group plays DE, so should I refuse to play them because it's not what I'd 'normally expect' to play against? I've played with and against FW Armoured Companies, and people consider them 'normal' in our group.

Hmm, yes -- you definitely declare that what biccat said was "nonsense." Yes, yes -- don't rush me now -- ah ha, and you did explain why! "That's a thin argument." Marvelously done!

Look, everyone agrees that if you have a group of friends who are okay with you using FW stuff -- well, that's okay. Also, people are in agreement that if a person gives you permission to use FW stuff in a game then that's okay, too. So what kind of situations remain: random pick-up games (which are not necessarily "friendly") and tournament play. So, between you and Frazzled, please explain to me how using FW rules in those situations is anything except what is NOT 'normally expected.' I mean, I know it's bloody nonsense (remember, I took your advice and read your post) so just humor me, I guess.

It would be one thing if the GW Design Studio had a rigorous play testing program and that codex balance was a top priority. You might then be able to make an argument that there is some inherit balance advantage to only have GW codex units and armies. Since we all know or should know that is not the case and the game is about cool models and publishing a ruleset that allows us to play with them. Making arguments about FW units disrupting the meta game balance that is 40k is a non-starter for me. There are better arguments for not allowing FW models the above one isn't one of them. Sorry.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And the reasons for that are pretty fething thin. They're 'unfair'? They're 'unbalanced'? No they're not. Most of them suck. A few are over powered. Just like a lot of regular Codices

Hit the nail on the head.