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FW & GW are now one company (have been for several years). FW rules are accepted by GW, and on the occassional independent tournies and unofficial tournies many TOs have not allowed FW lists. Some local GW BB tournies HAVE allowed FW lists & National GW tournies sometimes have & have NOT allowed them....

What is your opinion on FW models &/or lists in 2k or less (no superheavies) games?

I use the IA8 Elysian list for my babies, so I'm all for the use of those lists.

I've no problem with someone using forgeworld models in a list against me. They're all made by the same company and add some extra diversity to the game.

Forgeworld models just seem to have a stigma of being overpowered so people dismiss them out of hand. Where infact, bar a few exceptions, they are mostly overpriced for what they bring to the table.

AlexHeap wrote:I've no problem with someone using forgeworld models in a list against me. They're all made by the same company and add some extra diversity to the game.

Forgeworld models just seem to have a stigma of being overpowered so people dismiss them out of hand. Where infact, bar a few exceptions, they are mostly overpriced for what they bring to the table.

This. Besides, if someone is willing to shell out the cash and put the work into those models, they should be able to use them.

I'm probably a little biased since all my armies use FW lists, but I think they're great. The lists represent the niche armies very well, but are incredibly underpowered unless if you decide to take a very cheesy build (I'm looking at you Living Metal Dreadnought!)

NICE! Only 5% so far dislike or wont face a FW list....

AlexHeap wrote:I've no problem with someone using forgeworld models in a list against me. They're all made by the same company and add some extra diversity to the game.

Forgeworld models just seem to have a stigma of being overpowered so people dismiss them out of hand. Where infact, bar a few exceptions, they are mostly overpriced for what they bring to the table.

+2 to this. At the end of the day, FW are valid GW products that can be uses in GW games. The issue regarding FW should not be about whether they are a valid product but rather the discussion focused on the balance of specific units in question (which is the same with any codex as there are always at least 1-2 overpowered/under costed units).

I suspect people who think FW are invalid/overpowered have probably never read a single IA book in their life apart from the experimental rules PDFs on the FW website .

candy.man wrote:

I suspect people who think FW are invalid/overpowered have probably never read a single IA book in their life apart from the experimental rules PDFs on the FW website .

Sweeping generalizations FTW. I own every FW book and have most of the ork units represented. I still find there are horrible imbalances and a general lack of playtesting that has gone into the IA books which make them generally unsuited for competitive play... Friendly play is 'ok' with opponents consent so they know what they are getting into. The Ork Dredbash army is a rude whammy to spring on someone who is not expecting 20+ walkers all with 4+ cover saves due to the multiple KFFs on the table.

The issue are the one or two really broken overpowered units/lists ruin it for everyone else. Since TOs don't want to say 'all FW but these two horribly broken units' they just say 'no FW'.

The other issue is many people who try to use FW units don't even own the 80$+ FW books, they simply see it in army builder and want to use it... Makes it very hard to prepare opponents for your out of left field FW units which they have never seen and rules that sound too good to be true that they can't confirm.

You can say whatever you want on how it is GW but it is an 'expansion' to the core game and all expansions are optional and opponents consent or require a TO to run a special tourney.

Not balanced to competitive play? Most of the time that’s because FW units suck. I’ll agree with those that have said FW units have this stigma of being overpowered (that and people are afraid of losing, but more afraid of admitting that...). Our group has a lot of FW units and uses them quite a bit. Most of them are junk, and are used because they’re fun.

Generally speaking FW units fall into two categories:

1. Overpriced and generally terrible or, at best, a middling unit that adds nothing or worth to a list, competitive or otherwise (95%).
2. Overpowered due to no (real) play-testing (5%).

I would expect people bringing Titans to the table would have the decency to tell their opponent first, but beyond what... so what? So your opponent shows up with a Malanthrope or a Land Raider Prometheus? Who cares. He’s got a Blight Drone or a XV-9 Harzard Suit Team? So what? Just get on with it and play the damned game...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Sweeping generalizations FTW.

And then...

nkelsch wrote:The other issue is many people who try to use FW units don't even own the 80$+ FW books, they simply see it in army builder and want to use it

Irony!!!

As long as the player asking to use the Forge World unit has an actual hardcopy of the book, not a PDF scan of the book, that is what I have to say about special units.

If someone was to tell me I could not use my Games Day space marine which was made by forge world, which has a legal configuration for at least a Lone Wolf, or a Standard Space Marine Commander out of the vanilla dex I would be more than displeased. In addition, there are Forge World models that do exist that can be units from a codex, like the space marines with specific armor sets and specific pattern bolters, and assault squads, that are exactly the same as the GW counterpart. As a side note several FW models have been represented in the GW Apocalypse expansions.

In the nature of my rant could the OP, or someone with the power to change a thread title change the word "models" to "units" please.

What's wrong with a PDF scan (illegalities aside)? It's still the rules.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Irony!!!

Don't you have some money to give to GW so you can buy your Stormravens to convert?

nkelsch wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Irony!!!

Don't you have some money to give to GW so you can buy your Stormravens to convert?

Bad comeback is bad.

I have no problem facing off against a FW army list or a few FW models in a friendly game. I have played a few FW lists over the last few years. Played Armored Battle Group, Elysian Drop Troops, and an Ork Dread Mob. Of those three armies, I'd say the Dread Mob is really underpowered, the Armoured Battle Group is slightly underpowered, and the Elysian Drop Troops are a little over powered.

I think ultimately I wouldn't want to see FW lists or units in tourneys simply because they don't feel like they were play tested enough or lack some balance.

nkelsch wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Irony!!!

Don't you have some money to give to GW so you can buy your Stormravens to convert?

Off topic and a troll post

H.B.M.C. wrote:What's wrong with a PDF scan (illegalities aside)? It's still the rules.

Even though I am not so paranoid to believe that someone would edit a PDF to tweak rules in their favor, I would not expect to make someone bring a book if I was not going to do the same If I wanted to use a unit from Imperial Armour. In my humble opinion, I believe that this is the more sporting means of using one of the units, and to reiterate, I do not expect someone to do something I myself would not do.

H.B.M.C. wrote:What's wrong with a PDF scan (illegalities aside)? It's still the rules.

Just more excuses. God forbid someone would prefer to keep his book in good shape and use printed sheets instead. Rules, units, painted/not painted, book or pdf, etc. Keep adding and you'll end up with no one to play with. I like playing with people. I do not like playing against them. I like even less not playing at all

How is this overpowered?

Forgeword list (DKOK army has +1bs, regroups even under 1/2 str, and use orders from guard codex....)

Hq 1
5 command squad with Senior Officer with plasma pistol & power sword, Vox Operator, Standard Bearer and 2 Guardsmen. All with carapace armor.
Elite 1
10 Grenadiers with Sergeant, vox, Flamer and Grenade Launcher.
Elite 2
10 Grenadiers with Sergeant, vox, Flamer and Grenade Launcher.
Elite 3
1 Quad Launcher with 3 crew. (barrages)
Troop 1
Infantry Platoon.
5 man command squad with Junior Officer with power sword, Vox Operator, plasmagunner & grenade launcher, and Standard Bearer.
10 infantry with Sergeant, vox, and plasmagunner.
10 infantry with Sergeant, vox, and plasmagunner.
Heavy weapons team - 3 Lascannons.
Commissar joins (plasma pistol & power sword).
Troop 2
Infantry Platoon.
5 command squad with Junior Officer with power sword, Vox Operator, flamer & grenade launcher, and Standard Bearer.
10 infantry with Sergeant, vox, and meltagunner.
10 infantry with Sergeant, vox, and meltagunner.
Heavy weapons team - 3 Autocannons.
Commissar joins (plasma pistol & power sword).
Troops 3
7 Engineers armed with shotguns, mole launcher, vox, demo, and gas grenades. With Hades drill. (deepstrikes even when deepstrike not allowed)
Heavy 1
1 Medusa Siege Gun and 5 crew. (barrages)
Heavy 2
1 Thunderer with pintle stubber.
Heavy 3
2 Thunderers with pintle stubbers.

Here is my Games Workshop Imperial Guard Codex list (for those who wont play against my FW army...)

same minis being used....(minus hades drill, & minus thudd gun & crew, & no mole launcher)

Hq 1 command squad (5 minis) Senior Officer with plasma pistol & power sword , med, Vox Operator, Standard Bearer and 2 Guardsmen. All with carapace armour.
Elite 1 (storm troopers) 10 (Grenadier models) with Sergeant, vox, Flamer and Grenade Launcher.
Elite 2 (storm troopers) 10 (Grenadier models) with Sergeant, vox, Flamer and Grenade Launcher.
Elite 3 (engineer models) 5 ratling snipers
Troops 1 Vet Squad. 10 w/ Sgt with power sword, Vox, PlasmaGunner, MeltaGunner, autocannon team. Grenadiers doctrine. Commissar with carapace armour, plasma pistol, and power sword.
Troops 2 Veteran Squad. squad 10 minis w/ Sergeant, vox, autocannon team, Plasma Gunner and Flamer. Grenadiers doctrine....Commissar with carapace armour, plasma pistol, and power sword.
Troops 3 Veteran Squad. 10 w/ Sergeant, vox, autocannon team, and Grenade Launcher. Grenadiers doctrine.
Troops 4 Veteran Squad. 10 w/ Sgt with power sword, Vox Operator, Plasma Gunner, Melta Gunner, lascannon team. Grenadiers doctrine.
Troops 5 Veteran Squad. 10 w/ Sergeant, vox, lascannon team, and flamer. Grenadiers doctrine.
Troops 6 Veteran Squad. 10 w/ Sergeant, vox, lascannon team, and Grenade Launcher. Grenadiers doctrine.
Heavy 1 Leman Russ demolisher (thunderer model)
Heavy 2 two Leman Russ demolishers (thunderer models)
Heavy 3 Medusa (although on carriage, since paying points, it is mobile)

Both the FW & GW are equally footed....

There are a couple of clowns that come in to my local store that sunscribe to "FW is unfair". Mostly because they can't model for gak and work minimum wage jobs at places like Burger King. So FW is too expensive for them.

Most of the regulars now have FW stuff in their armies just so we can drop "you don't want to play me, I have Forge World in my army, it's unfair" on these guys so we don't have to bother with them.

Gotta love the inclusivity of GW games eh?

So long as things are explained and everyone is happy then there shouldn't be an issue.

The current competitive meta that GW finds its products placed in causes divisive issues anyway let alone that GW release supplements under the aegis of a subsidiary company. And I have never known a game system where supplements to a current game edition are so hotly disputed by the fans.

Any game requires consent, if people are happy to play, fine, if not, move on and find someone or something else to play

Mr. Burning wrote:Gotta love the inclusivity of GW games eh?

So long as things are explained and everyone is happy then there shouldn't be an issue.

The current competitive meta that GW finds its products placed in causes divisive issues anyway let alone that GW release supplements under the aegis of a subsidiary company. And I have never known a game system where supplements to a current game edition are so hotly disputed by the fans.

Any game requires consent, if people are happy to play, fine, if not, move on and find someone or something else to play

The problem is that too many "in the hobby" aren't happy. To play or otherwise. Miserable little neckbeards with no social skills and no future that can only find some hollow validation in "winning" with toy soldiers, model tanks and little resin men from Mars. Abused and beaten (in their mind) by the evil overlords at GW, but stuck in the viscious cycle where all they can do is alternate between anger, sadness and giving all of their money to "Big Evil" Tom Kirby.

krazynadechukr wrote:FW & GW are now one company (have been for several years).

They actually always have been. There was a separate company called Forge World back in the day, but the current company is pure GW.

The Forgeworld lists tend to have some balancing issues, but I'd enjoy playing against Forgeworld lists. Just let me know what everything does and if anything's unusual.

Forgeworld models and army lists, in general, are overcosted for what you get.

I run XV9's @ my FLGS with my Tau, but my FLGS has a 100% forgeworld unit acceptance policy (besides mixing apoc stuff into standard gameplay.. so no super heavies)

It makes for a fun day.. plus it's fun to play against IG Armored Company! (They can't score! They -have- to play for the table!)

Brother SRM wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
The Forgeworld lists tend to have some balancing issues

Unlike, of course, the Blood Angels codex...

johnnyrumour wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

krazynadechukr wrote:
The Forgeworld lists tend to have some balancing issues

Unlike, of course, the Blood Angels codex...

or anything else written by M. Night "Ding Dong" Ward.

As you know, FW rules are accepted by GW ... as supplement rules, not rules for normal games.
Of course a number of FW models can easily "count as" Codex units. Others might be imbalancing the game (super-heavies, flyers, badly tested units).
So games against FW list often have the playtest atmosphere, testing the list not your qualities as a general. Not everyone is happy to playtest a list. Bringing the book with rules is absolutely mandatory of course.

Bottom line is: Just ask your opponent (noone is forced to play against you outside tournaments, not even Codex armies).

Friendly games are all about gentlemen agreements. So why not ?

It's this "opponent's permission" gak I never got...

Hang on, By the very fact you've agreed to play a game, is this not "opponent's permission"? You don't have a gun to your opponent's head forcing them to play. I always love how the people that disallow it have such weak excuses.

"We don't know what the rules are!" Um, your opponent will bring the relevant rules, if they don't, then they're a numpty and probably will "forget" other things during the game too. Besides, how is this different from playing a new codex army list?
The amount of people I see that go through a FW list/unit with a fine tooth comb trying to find that little thing that will allegedly screw their army over (that's not there). Yet when the DE dex* first appeared you had queues of people at my local store willing to play against it blind.

"If it's got the GW stamp on it we don't give a gak about balance!"


I think the problem with the dreaded "F word" stems from people's perceived perception (alliteration FTW!) that FW=Titans and Supheavies. 2 things that are a big nono in standard 40k IMO. I remember getting in an argument with a guy down the store recently who would not let me use a single(!) Hazard Battlesuit in my Farsight army, his argument. "It's FW". Nothing more. No explanantion or justification as to why he was trying to disallow it.


*N.B. I don't think the DE dex is overpowered in any way, I just saw this as an amusing curiosity, incidentally that same didn't happen with the GK dex. Go figure.

I dont care if you proxy gw models with fw models....but I think any kind of apocalpse type vehicle in a 2k- game is dumb.

Outside of an agreement to play a FW game, I wouldn't want to play someone with a FW list.

First, the units are completely at odds with what is expected and normally encountered on the battlefield.

Second, some units in FW lists may be overpowered and shouldn't be allowed at a game. I have no interest in going through your "codex" to figure out what those units are to decide if I want to play against your list.

Third, most FW stuff can be adequately played as a proxy for either another army or incorporated into another army. I would much rather face an army of proxies where I know what the rules are than an army that has completely new rules that are beyond what is normally expected in a game.