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Toastedandy wrote:Anyway, if I could afford to get a machine like this - http://www.dannychoo.com/post/en/26119/Human+Cloning+in+Japan.html

I would make myself, and all my mates into inquisitor scale figures. It would be brilliant.

What kind of donkey-cave wears a wool hat indoors? feth that guy, seriously.

Crom wrote:

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Ok yes for a school that size then yes that sample level does work. The point I was making that you seemed to have trouble grasping was the whole issue of sample size verse what size group you are trying to represent. The way you presented it seemd to implay that you meant for that 1/29 ratio to be accurate for say the entire country. Thank you for finally actualy answering the question.

He also polled a demographic of students, which are assuming to be young and perhaps naive with how the world works. Though I am willing to be more people in the USA download music than say smoke pot, and many polls have shown that over 50% of Americans at one time or still do, smoke pot. I am not sure if he was making the point that if everyone does it, make it legal, or what, but nothing will ever stop digital piracy. Everyone on the Internet is guilty of downloading something pirated at one time or another.

I don't think anyone should face jail time, especially if they are also buying items as well. I also think that companies that claim to lose revenue over digital piracy are lying out their butts. They claim to lose 100s of thousands of dollars to one person, like that person every had 100+K to waste on music. How about that single mom that her 10 year old downloaded 2 albums and they tried to sue her for 300,000 dollars....for 2 albums? If anything you should owe the current retail value of what you downloaded and be sentenced to community service. Let's at least be reasonable here, no one has money to buy every DVD or album they want, so there will always be downloading, but many people who pirate also go out and buy stuff.

I agree with you on that. Chances are downloading stuff online without paying for it is never going to go away. In fact I would be surprised if it did. My issue with Canadian's little ratio was that 30 people polled are not enough to reach a viable consensus on the issue.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:and you passed it off trying to make it seem like you meant it for something larger then just that class. Which I stated several times earlier. Try reading full posts.

Uh what? I never passed anything off, and mostly talked about business models for online distribution of digital goods.

not you that was directed to Canadian.

ah gotcha oh well I am gonna go play some Starcraft II

dajobe wrote:1: most people who have gone to prison over weed are dealers,i know MANY people at school who have been caught and were issued a ticket, its the dealers that usually go to prison, and that is different than just smoking. And privatization of prisons? i never said that, i realise prisons are becoming overcrowded, but as you said, many people are in for drug related crimes, and one major contributor of that is weed, which is one drug that i feel should be legalized! but breaking the law is breaking the law.

Although the intent of a 'War on Drugs' may have been to target drug smugglers and 'King Pins,' over half (51.6%) of the 1,663,582 total 2009 arrests for drug abuse violations were for marijuana -- a calculated total of 858,408. Of those, an estimated 758,593 people (45.6%) were arrested for marijuana possession alone. By contrast in 2000, a total of 734,497 Americans were arrested for marijuana offenses, of which 646,042 were for possession alone.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Marijuana#Data

Keep drinking the coolaid.


As for music piracy, that mainly hurts the labels, who honestly probably deserve it for their long and sordid histories of manipulating/using artists and turning out mass-marketed tripe. Bands such as Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead are embracing the internet and file-sharing, and are adopting to the new dynamic, and they are far from the only ones.

Canadian 5th wrote:It's a wide interval to be sure, I would also say that 80% of students of college age in my area is still close to everybody. Also, the majority said they did it for reasons of cost, with some saying the might buy something they enjoyed after downloading it.

Cost--while I still don't agree with--is something I can understand.

Same with a trial. That's why I support people giving out free demos, etc. Give people a free sample so they don't get pissed when they buy a bad game, movie, etc. Torrent it, try it for a bit then pay for it.

Then make a book worth paying full price for.

You are aware taht there is a reason we have standardized prices. Everyone thinks that something is wort different amounts of money. I think my models are worth the price I pay for them, others don't. Similarly, my mom sees a $3k handbag as 'worth it'. I don't.

Everyone's idea of a 'fair price' is going to be different. If you think that a luxury item isn't worth paying full price for, you know what? Don't buy it. You don't ave a right to say 'it's more expensive than I'm willing to pay, so I'll just steal it for free.'

Not that hard to get a small broadcasting station and a license to use it.

Which is different from stealing music.

Yeh I think its been proven that the key to companies success is to keep up with technology and how they provide content to the customer. Something GW hasnt done. People WANT their products in digital format and i think mostly would gladly pay a subscription service to have access to all the available materials.

I think another nice thing would be a computer simulation of their game systems liek MegaMek. Catalyst supports the creators of megamek which is a computer version of Classic battletech that can be used to play with peopel all over the world. GW on the other hand is quick to snuff out ANY type of similar product(i know Ive looked). Saying that it will hurt thair sales(i believe it has soimething to do with the agreement they have with relic so they are obligated to do it but they should try and work something out). On the contray such a thing sparks interest in 40k and a computer simulation will never replace playing an actual game with actual figures that youve painted yourself. It also gives friends who have moved apart an oppurtunity to still play together and allows people from all over the world to connect letting players play more games with more people.

keisukekun wrote:Yeh I think its been proven that the key to companies success is to keep up with technology and how they provide content to the customer. Something GW hasnt done. People WANT their products in digital format and i think mostly would gladly pay a subscription service to have access to all the available materials.

I think another nice thing would be a computer simulation of their game systems liek MegaMek. Catalyst supports the creators of megamek which is a computer version of Classic battletech that can be used to play with peopel all over the world. GW on the other hand is quick to snuff out ANY type of similar product(i know Ive looked). Saying that it will hurt thair sales(i believe it has soimething to do with the agreement they have with relic so they are obligated to do it but they should try and work something out). On the contray such a thing sparks interest in 40k and a computer simulation will never replace playing an actual game with actual figures that youve painted yourself. It also gives friends who have moved apart an oppurtunity to still play together and allows people from all over the world to connect letting players play more games with more people.

This is a separate app they could market, a sort of build your own battle report application with over head views, terrain, units, and so forth, where you could whip up the battle report and then post it online! This would not be hard to make and it could be intuitive and use on an iPad or Android tablet. Apps on the app store vary from free, to several hundred dollars, and they sell. I think marvel comics does a subscription app which allows you access to some of their content for a monthly price.

I think a lot of us would pay $99 a year to have all the books in digital format where we could toss them on our smart phones, laptops, tablets, and so forth. I mean just having a search function to look up rules would be awesome. You gotta look up rules for disembarking an open top vehicle, search for it, bam you pull up the page instantly.

Come on GW read this thread and give us digital apps!!!!!!!

Crom wrote:

keisukekun wrote:Yeh I think its been proven that the key to companies success is to keep up with technology and how they provide content to the customer. Something GW hasnt done. People WANT their products in digital format and i think mostly would gladly pay a subscription service to have access to all the available materials.

I think another nice thing would be a computer simulation of their game systems liek MegaMek. Catalyst supports the creators of megamek which is a computer version of Classic battletech that can be used to play with peopel all over the world. GW on the other hand is quick to snuff out ANY type of similar product(i know Ive looked). Saying that it will hurt thair sales(i believe it has soimething to do with the agreement they have with relic so they are obligated to do it but they should try and work something out). On the contray such a thing sparks interest in 40k and a computer simulation will never replace playing an actual game with actual figures that youve painted yourself. It also gives friends who have moved apart an oppurtunity to still play together and allows people from all over the world to connect letting players play more games with more people.

This is a separate app they could market, a sort of build your own battle report application with over head views, terrain, units, and so forth, where you could whip up the battle report and then post it online! This would not be hard to make and it could be intuitive and use on an iPad or Android tablet. Apps on the app store vary from free, to several hundred dollars, and they sell. I think marvel comics does a subscription app which allows you access to some of their content for a monthly price.

I think a lot of us would pay $99 a year to have all the books in digital format where we could toss them on our smart phones, laptops, tablets, and so forth. I mean just having a search function to look up rules would be awesome. You gotta look up rules for disembarking an open top vehicle, search for it, bam you pull up the page instantly.

Come on GW read this thread and give us digital apps!!!!!!!

That sounds like a disscription of Vassal40k: http://www.vassal40k.info/, it has overhead views and is said to be for making battle reports, thogh people use it to play games, too.

Canadian 5th wrote:Would you call it illegal if I read the book, returned it, and due to a good memory wrote down a copy later?

As a matter of fact, yes, in most western countries that would be illegal. Whether you reproduce the book by photocopying it, scanning it, writing it down, or building a printing press out of match-sticks and chewing gum, you're reproducing a copyrighted work.

There are some exceptions in some countries (here in Oz, it's still illegal to just copy the whole book on paper, but legal to scan it onto your ebook reader, for example... although you still have to own the original as well)... but by and large, books are still covered by the old 'no reproducey the bookey' statement that is usually printed somewhere just inside the front or back cover.

General Seric wrote:

Crom wrote:

keisukekun wrote:Yeh I think its been proven that the key to companies success is to keep up with technology and how they provide content to the customer. Something GW hasnt done. People WANT their products in digital format and i think mostly would gladly pay a subscription service to have access to all the available materials.

I think another nice thing would be a computer simulation of their game systems liek MegaMek. Catalyst supports the creators of megamek which is a computer version of Classic battletech that can be used to play with peopel all over the world. GW on the other hand is quick to snuff out ANY type of similar product(i know Ive looked). Saying that it will hurt thair sales(i believe it has soimething to do with the agreement they have with relic so they are obligated to do it but they should try and work something out). On the contray such a thing sparks interest in 40k and a computer simulation will never replace playing an actual game with actual figures that youve painted yourself. It also gives friends who have moved apart an oppurtunity to still play together and allows people from all over the world to connect letting players play more games with more people.

This is a separate app they could market, a sort of build your own battle report application with over head views, terrain, units, and so forth, where you could whip up the battle report and then post it online! This would not be hard to make and it could be intuitive and use on an iPad or Android tablet. Apps on the app store vary from free, to several hundred dollars, and they sell. I think marvel comics does a subscription app which allows you access to some of their content for a monthly price.

I think a lot of us would pay $99 a year to have all the books in digital format where we could toss them on our smart phones, laptops, tablets, and so forth. I mean just having a search function to look up rules would be awesome. You gotta look up rules for disembarking an open top vehicle, search for it, bam you pull up the page instantly.

Come on GW read this thread and give us digital apps!!!!!!!

That sounds like a disscription of Vassal40k: http://www.vassal40k.info/, it has overhead views and is said to be for making battle reports, thogh people use it to play games, too.

Yeh Ive heard of vassal 40k and they have had problems with gw trying to shut them down on and off

@omegus: interesting fact, had not been my experience, those people must have really pissed off the cops, because at school i knew about 20 people who were caught and issued tickets by the local pd, and one dude i was talking to said that a couple of years ago, his dealer had been arrested.

@canadian:arent the best at hypothetical discussions or thinking are you...

This has been an interesting thread. I feel like the only two views here are "anything I want to do is okay" and "copyright infringement is immoral because it's illegal". I'm not sure I can agree with either. Here's going to be my overall feeling: Some piracy is okay sometimes.

"Wait, not a black and white answer? Are you mad? Where do you get off?" I know. Crazy, right? Here's what I'm thinking: I'm thinking that content is the box they're burying consumer rights in. Case in point: The Witcher. It was a game released in 2007. I bought it for PC because I enjoyed playing it at a friend's house. It was a pretty good game, all things considered. It also won't work in Windows 7 because the rootkit they used to protect the game from it's users won't install properly in that OS. Some of these rootkits interfere with legitimate software, CD/DVD image mounting software, virus scanners, and the like. I actually had to download a pirated copy of it that had the hooks for said rootkit hacked out of it so that I could actually play it again. That's right: The pirated (free) copy is a superior product to the licensed (paid) copy. I'll allow you to think about that for a while.

The other situation where I see piracy as justifiable, or perhaps even "morally acceptable", is with regard to music. I'm a huge music buff, but I'm no friend of it *IAA. I've made that quite clear in more than one rant in OT. I think artists should be paid what they're due, which is why I find piracy acceptable in this situation. Shady accounting means you can sell a million albums and end up owing the labels money because of it. If there was some way to actually get my money to the artists, I would do it. If I could mail them a check for the album, I would. Problem is I can't. You probably ask, "Why would anyone sign up then if there's no way to succeed?" I wondered too. It's desperation. Music is a monopoly. The music cartel controls access to recording studios and venues. Clear Channel owns the vast majority of radio stations throughout the US, and they're in bed with the labels. That means that unless you sign the seven record deal, you will have a hard time finding recording anywhere fancier than your garage and playing live anywhere bigger than a bar. All of this is probably moot however, because no matter what a virtuoso you might be, you're not getting on any of the radio stations, so no one's heard of you anyway. As a result, I want to see the labels brought down. Having all of this been said, I pay for indie music when I find music that I like. I go see indie bands when they play around here. I do my part.

Back to topic: Pirating GW doesn't seem justifiable in my mind. They don't really hurt anyone else but themselves with their 'business' decisions, the pirated product will forever be inferior to the product they provide, and they're not contractually screwing over the creative force that is the reason they exist. (Not sure about that last one, but I will presume innocence until proven otherwise.) Do I have pdfs of the codexes? Sure. Do I have the books themselves? At least one of each. I have two space marine codexes, two IG codexes, and three rulebooks. Do I agree with paying $30 for a box with one melta in it when that's all I want? Hell no! However, that has encouraged me to pursue creative ways of creating meltaguns, allowing for more than one pose, that don't require me to steal their design.

I don't see it as stealing if I cast 5 meltaguns. Simple fact is, if I didn't recast them, I wouldn't of bought them. GW lose no business at all.

I see it more akin to fan art than piracy. What would be the difference between drawing a space marine and casting a space marine. GW stood to make no money in the first place, hence I am not stealing from them. It could be seen as piracy, but then wouldn't fan art/fiction be piracy?

Toastedandy wrote:I don't see it as stealing if I cast 5 meltaguns. Simple fact is, if I didn't recast them, I wouldn't of bought them. GW lose no business at all.

I see it more akin to fan art than piracy. What would be the difference between drawing a space marine and casting a space marine. GW stood to make no money in the first place, hence I am not stealing from them. It could be seen as piracy, but then wouldn't fan art/fiction be piracy?

yes it is, if you wouldnt have bought them then thats fine, but once those are recast or downloaded or whatever product the person is pirating, that is a trademarked product that was not paid for, and that is money that GW or whatever company should have recieved for those melta guns/producta(even though this is in more of a gray area in my opinion). I bet that fan art could be argued to be piracy if the person tries to sell their art or fiction for profit without recieving GW's approval, but I dont think just fan fiction would be piracy.

That's one of Canadian 5ths main lines of reasoning. He wouldn't have bought it if it weren't free. So it's ok for someone you haven't been arguing with to do it but not Canadian?

dajobe wrote:

yes it is, if you wouldnt have bought them then thats fine, but once those are recast or downloaded or whatever product the person is pirating, that is a trademarked product that was not paid for, and that is money that GW or whatever company should have recieved for those melta guns/producta(even though this is in more of a gray area in my opinion). I bet that fan art could be argued to be piracy if the person tries to sell their art or fiction for profit without recieving GW's approval, but I dont think just fan fiction would be piracy.

Actually, interestingly enough, most piracy numbers prefer to consider that one pirated unit directly equals one lost sale. That's why the numbers you always see from "studies" that interested parties release seem to indicate that the amount of lost revenue is in the ballpark of the GDP of small countries.

But why would it be piracy if they sell art, but not piracy if they keep it?

Its the same principle.

iproxtaco wrote:That's one of Canadian 5ths main lines of reasoning. He wouldn't have bought it if it weren't free. So it's ok for someone you haven't been arguing with to do it but not Canadian?

and i said it was stealing, i just said the melta guns was a little more of a gray area, but still stealing

Toastedandy wrote:I don't see it as stealing if I cast 5 meltaguns. Simple fact is, if I didn't recast them, I wouldn't of bought them. GW lose no business at all.

I see it more akin to fan art than piracy. What would be the difference between drawing a space marine and casting a space marine. GW stood to make no money in the first place, hence I am not stealing from them. It could be seen as piracy, but then wouldn't fan art/fiction be piracy?

I think the difference is that you're using it in the manner directly competing with their product. Then again, so is any greenstuff analogue. It's an odd grey area, I suppose. Why is a direct cast 'worse' than sculpting a reasonable facsimile? Or even drawing a reasonable facsimile? Or even closing your eyes and imagining one?

Toastedandy wrote:But why would it be piracy if they sell art, but not piracy if they keep it?

Its the same principle.

when you say keep it, you mean just paint some picture of Spees Mareens or something? Because if someone wrote a 40k book and sold it at borders, and didnt apply to use the liscense, so GW makes no money off of what was their intellectual property. As for writing a book and just reading it yourself, no clue, could ask my dad, he took some copyright classes in law school?


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daedalus wrote:

dajobe wrote:

yes it is, if you wouldnt have bought them then thats fine, but once those are recast or downloaded or whatever product the person is pirating, that is a trademarked product that was not paid for, and that is money that GW or whatever company should have recieved for those melta guns/producta(even though this is in more of a gray area in my opinion). I bet that fan art could be argued to be piracy if the person tries to sell their art or fiction for profit without recieving GW's approval, but I dont think just fan fiction would be piracy.

Actually, interestingly enough, most piracy numbers prefer to consider that one pirated unit directly equals one lost sale. That's why the numbers you always see from "studies" that interested parties release seem to indicate that the amount of lost revenue is in the ballpark of the GDP of small countries.

most companies are complete bags, but they have to be in order to stay viable, and yes, i'd be willing to bet that some studies are "influenced" by what the company wants shown

dajobe wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:But why would it be piracy if they sell art, but not piracy if they keep it?

Its the same principle.

when you say keep it, you mean just paint some picture of Spees Mareens or something? Because if someone wrote a 40k book and sold it at borders, and didnt apply to use the liscense, so GW makes no money off of what was their intellectual property. As for writing a book and just reading it yourself, no clue, could ask my dad, he took some copyright classes in law school?

Nah man, the point I am making is, what is the difference between drawing a space marine, sculpting a space marine, and casting a space marine.

No selling involved, just for personal use. Wouldn't it all be piracy? Wouldn't it be piracy if I think of a space marine?

i dont really know for sure, ill ask my dad about that, im curious now, any lawyers in the forum that know copyright laws? I would say less likely if you are not selling the products though.

piracy if think of space marine? i dont think any company in the world has a copyright to stop someone from thinking about something, that was a little bit extreme.


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i need to go make an IG list because i dont really have one good for sieze and control missions...ill check back on this in like an hour!

When 3D printing becomes larger, whats to stop people just making their own games? their own minis? Companies like GW or PP would go have to up their game massively. The scope of 3d printing is astonishing. Anything you could possible imagine, turned into plastic, with little to no skill involved at all.

But saying that, artists who devoted their lives to their chosen medium will become obsolete with this. But people probably said the same thing about painting and cameras.

i think these 3D printers will have many companies that produce physical products running scared, and that thing about the cameras is probably true as well

dajobe wrote:i dont really know for sure, ill ask my dad about that, im curious now, any lawyers in the forum that know copyright laws? I would say less likely if you are not selling the products though.

piracy if think of space marine? i dont think any company in the world has a copyright to stop someone from thinking about something, that was a little bit extreme.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i need to go make an IG list because i dont really have one good for sieze and control missions...ill check back on this in like an hour!

There is also the fact that it is rather hard for them to prove you were thinking of Space Marines.

Toastedandy wrote:When 3D printing becomes larger, whats to stop people just making their own games? their own minis? Companies like GW or PP would go have to up their game massively. The scope of 3d printing is astonishing. Anything you could possible imagine, turned into plastic, with little to no skill involved at all.

But saying that, artists who devoted their lives to their chosen medium will become obsolete with this. But people probably said the same thing about painting and cameras.

They definitley would need to up their game to compete with the general populace. if you think about it if roughtly 10% of thsi forum dedicated itself together to make a fun game system for all of us to play tahst roughly 4000 people working together to make somethign they wnat exactly hwo they want it. How many people does GW have working on tehir system? maybe 20 or 30? I think 3D printing in the future will make the tabletop genre MUCH better than it is now both in the fan-made market and will cause companies liek GW to up their game to provide with a truly superior product.

As far as piracy goes I look at it liek free advertising. You are NOT going to stop pirates. Ever. Short of a totalitarian regime that terrorizes the populace (which is lookign more liekly every day). If people DL your product for free and like it and they are upstanding citizens tehy will go out and buy it. On the other hand people liek canadian that believe everythign should be free will never buy your product no matter what so they shouldnt even be in the equation. I DL stuff for free and if I liek it I will go buy it.

Liek i said before, Netflix has caused a large decrease in the pirating of movies (and itunes of music, amazon ebooks of books, Steam for PC games) because corporation responded to what the customers wanted. We want to be able to access our content anywhere and everywhere. 5-10 years ago if I dled a movie for free its not because I didnt want to pay for it or rent it its because I didnt want to go to the stupid video store and get and and have to deal with their stupid rules. I didnt buy that many PC games before because most stores have crap selection anyway and now with steam I buy games all the time because I can get it whenever I want. The few games I have DLed for free are older games they havent put on steam that are hard to find but If they ever o put tehm on steam I will gladly buy them. I also buy more books now since I got a kindle cause its easy to find what I want and take it anywhere (plus I can put my pdf's of my rulebooks on it which is cool)

keisukekun wrote:

Toastedandy wrote:When 3D printing becomes larger, whats to stop people just making their own games? their own minis? Companies like GW or PP would go have to up their game massively. The scope of 3d printing is astonishing. Anything you could possible imagine, turned into plastic, with little to no skill involved at all.

But saying that, artists who devoted their lives to their chosen medium will become obsolete with this. But people probably said the same thing about painting and cameras.

They definitley would need to up their game to compete with the general populace. if you think about it if roughtly 10% of thsi forum dedicated itself together to make a fun game system for all of us to play tahst roughly 4000 people working together to make somethign they wnat exactly hwo they want it. How many people does GW have working on tehir system? maybe 20 or 30? I think 3D printing in the future will make the tabletop genre MUCH better than it is now both in the fan-made market and will cause companies liek GW to up their game to provide with a truly superior product.

As far as piracy goes I look at it liek free advertising. You are NOT going to stop pirates. Ever. Short of a totalitarian regime that terrorizes the populace (which is lookign more liekly every day). If people DL your product for free and like it and they are upstanding citizens tehy will go out and buy it. On the other hand people liek canadian that believe everythign should be free will never buy your product no matter what so they shouldnt even be in the equation. I DL stuff for free and if I liek it I will go buy it.

Liek i said before, Netflix has caused a large decrease in the pirating of movies (and itunes of music, amazon ebooks of books, Steam for PC games) because corporation responded to what the customers wanted. We want to be able to access our content anywhere and everywhere. 5-10 years ago if I dled a movie for free its not because I didnt want to pay for it or rent it its because I didnt want to go to the stupid video store and get and and have to deal with their stupid rules. I didnt buy that many PC games before because most stores have crap selection anyway and now with steam I buy games all the time because I can get it whenever I want. The few games I have DLed for free are older games they havent put on steam that are hard to find but If they ever o put tehm on steam I will gladly buy them. I also buy more books now since I got a kindle cause its easy to find what I want and take it anywhere (plus I can put my pdf's of my rulebooks on it which is cool)

Yeah I could very well see an open source gaming system. Where people constantly play out the rules, test the, balance them, someone uploads tons of free design files of 3D rendered models, then you print out your models, print out the rules, and essentially create your own gaming system.

I think GWs rules in 40K need an entire rework, but I think Fantasy is decently well rounded.

yeah, i agree, netflix is sweet