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Commisar Wolfie wrote:So you see no problem with contributing to a company going out of business which means a lot of people lose jobs during a time when jobs are already scarce enough (at least it is this way in America)?

Not at all, if your company can't adapt it goes under.


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Bookwrack wrote:It's like was brought up in the other thread - it doesn't matter if they can get MP3s for $1, or DVDs for $5 - if they can get it free they will 'cause they're self-centered, selfish pricks who don't give a damn about anything so long as they get theirs.

It's the attitude that Canadian 5th has embodied throughout the thread.

Actually, even at such a low cost I would simply go without if they weren't free. I really don't watch many movies outside of theaters so they don't really lose my money. I also don't download music anymore now that Jango's around so they will basically never make money off me outside of doing a concert in my area or me buy band merch.


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chaos0xomega wrote:I hate to brake this to you, but only a small portion of the populace uses torrents in that way, not nearly enough to support the hobby without continuing support from GW, and it is still illegal and it is still traceable and prosecutable. Unless you're using TOR, GW can still find and prosecute you for torrenting their crap, even after they've gone under, and really its not so difficult.

Okay, I'm in a technologies course in college, we did a survey in class and one out of 30 people asked didn't torrent most music and video. That one person who didn't was older so it wasn't that surprising. So they would need one hell of a lawsuit to nail everybody that does it.

And your one class of 30 is now a majority?

ChrisWWII wrote:Ahhh, so you only care about whether or not YOU win. You don't care about the people who get hurt. That explains alot. Like I said, piracy is parasitical.

Life has always been about doing the best for yourself. If I can help a few people along the way I might, but my won success comes first.

You are still stealing something that belongs to me.

No, I'm not. You still have your book, everybody who ever bought it still has it. You simply didn't get paid for my enjoyment of the book. However I could always read your book for free at a library so what's your point? Do you hate libraries now as well?

You should get a car manual for owning a car, and if you know how to repair your own car. Good for you. If you have a friend who knows how to fix your plumbing, once again good for you. The thing is that your friend has chosen to provide his service to you for free, while a pro requires money.

If you want the pro's services you need to give him money. Similarly, you are free to enjoy youtubeuser123s free music online. However, when you go to someone who wants moeny in exchange for their music, then you need to give them their money in compensation.

Or I can tune into the radio, to here another artist's work, or go on youtube and type their name in, or even download it. Artists make more money from a concert tour than they do from CD's and song sales so I like hurting the label and supporting the artist.

And why do you get the right to have access my property without paying me?

Because you can't stop me. The strong rule the weak. So keep writing and I'll enjoy it for free if I so desire.

I wonder what happens if we apply this logic to other forms of crime....

Well then you get gangs like the HA who do what they please, tend not to bother people outside of their group, and who rarely serve jail time.


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Commisar Wolfie wrote:And your one class of 30 is now a majority?

That was one who didn't pirate. So 29 of 30 is a vast majority.

You truly are a disturbed individual. If everyone actually went with that mind frame the world as we know it would end. Being that selfish is unbelievable. And if the strong always ruled the weak then your country would still be ruled over by another. Look through history and you will see plenty of cases where the weak underdog won.


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only in your class, a poll of 30 people is no where near enough to call a majority. try thousands then you can have a majority.

Crom wrote:Does anyone actually research anything before they post? I find so much misinformation dealing with technology more so than anything else. The fact is, 3D printers will totally change table top war gaming, but not the way you think. It will change the DIY "beer and pretzels" war gaming. You can already print out pretty decent looking models, and people upload the design files for free use. So it only costs you the printer + materials. Then people will start publishing their own rules.

Here is an example of what you can print right now, if you had a 3D printer. You don't need the top of the line model to do so either.




source: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/08/print-your-own-wargaming-minis.html

Thank you very much for being on topic. Those look great and I think in the future even more amazing things will be possible at more affordable prices.

In all honesty I do not see why GW doesn't get with the times. Imagine the following:

- iOS/Android apps for books, FAQs, rules, white dwarf articles, say $99 a year subscription rate...I'd buy it for your phone/tablet
- 3D printer models for those who want to print their own minis, they can license the plans, this again can also be subscription based
- actual web based and email support, they won't help you via email you have to call them - I WOULD RATHER EMAIL YOU!!!!
- army builder applications, with integrated rules, customization options, etc.
- desktop/laptop application bundles, ebooks, and so forth


If GW were to say for $99 a year you can have our library of books, I'd buy it. For digital copies only of course. They could have a license (DRM, which I hate but it would have it) and the license would have to be validated and then valid licenses get 1 full year of access to all books, updated rules, FAQs, and rules from White Dwarf. Then if you want the iOS/Android support you buy the app for it, another $30 a year there, you want the army builder application for your desktop/laptop another $30 there. Then they could bundle it for like $150 a year for everything or something.

I think it is a fair assumption that their books get pirated anyway. I know almost all books can be found on torrents from role playing, to war gaming, to fiction, comics, tech books, so on and so forth. So, the people who pirate aren't really a valid demographic for your product. They are going to pirate because they don't want to pay $30 a pop per an army book, for a subscription to white dwarf, nor do they want to pay whatever it is for the core rule set every edition.

So, you make a digital version, make it subscription based, and put it out on the web for all of us who are with the times to download. I think $99 a year is reasonable, and guess what, they would be making that off every customer every year, instead of only buying 1 to 2 army books every new release.

Enter 5 years form now when 3D printers are super cheap and work very well. It will happen, and people will use them to print GW models. In fact I can see it now, people publishing the drafting files for the models, and modifying them to make them look exactly how they want to. If GW was smart they would start making a business plan now, develop software and license their product to be 3D printed.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Commisar Wolfie wrote:So let's go ahead and support re-casting and violating copyrites. there is a great idea.

I already do support it. I haven't payed for movies, most PC games, cable, or PPV sporting events in years. If I could recast things on the cheap I would do so and if I had a hand scanner a few books I own would be easier to torrent by now.

that is disgusting, i hope one day that the Gov't cracks down HARD on people that do things like this!

dajobe wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Commisar Wolfie wrote:So let's go ahead and support re-casting and violating copyrites. there is a great idea.

I already do support it. I haven't payed for movies, most PC games, cable, or PPV sporting events in years. If I could recast things on the cheap I would do so and if I had a hand scanner a few books I own would be easier to torrent by now.

that is disgusting, i hope one day that the Gov't cracks down HARD on people that do things like this!

Oh, so you want them to waste even more money. It would be like the war on drugs, only with less point and more cost. Have fun with those tax hikes.

No i would prefer that people not download things illegally. And so you think that just because it costs alot to fight, it instantly becomes ok? its interesting that you mention the drug war...personally, i think that many of them should be legalized, but as long as it is illegal i say "SEND EM TO THE BRIG!"

Oh, so you want them to waste even more money. It would be like the war on drugs, only with less point and more cost. Have fun with those tax hikes.

I don't think this quite parallels to GW. The war on drugs is a government policy and the law. We are forced to adhere to the law or pay the price for breaking the law. GW is a private company and you can choose to play their games and use their products or you can choose not to. No regulations or laws involved. Piracy is a whole different set of issues that have many different meanings and affect things differently across the board. When GW's prices get so high that it costs near $1,000 to build a decent army people will pirate, or choose not to play or play with their old minis instead. In fact I just got back into war gaming after a 15 year break. All my old minis work fine and I don't buy anything new (man the prices have tripled in 15 years!) and I also buy a ton of used stuff off of ebay.

That is why there needs to be a good competition, but no other company is really competing with them. All other table top war games are way more skirmish set (like 20 models or less) and lack a lot of options 40K and Fantasy give you. I really wish Warzone had taken off, because in my opinion the rules were much better than anything GW did, they were balanced, and the system was great and it made it a more tactical strategy game. However, they did not take off, and from what I heard their last edition the rule makers totally botched the system by reinventing it.

So, really what GW needs is some decent competition to keep them in a price check, and they should start looking at business models which support modern business practices - like ebooks, software applications, digital downloads, etc.

dajobe wrote:No i would prefer that people not download things illegally. And so you think that just because it costs alot to fight, it instantly becomes ok? its interesting that you mention the drug war...personally, i think that many of them should be legalized, but as long as it is illegal i say "SEND EM TO THE BRIG!"

Ah, so you support the privatization of prisons, the overcrowding and cruelty within. All, in some cases, over something as small as a few ounces of weed?


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Crom wrote:<snip>

Context fail. dajobe said that the US gov't should crack down on piracy of online materials. I said that it would be another waste like the war on drugs.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Okay, I'm in a technologies course in college, we did a survey in class and one out of 30 people asked didn't torrent most music and video. That one person who didn't was older so it wasn't that surprising. So they would need one hell of a lawsuit to nail everybody that does it.

If you had done a survey 30 years ago you would have found that only one out of 30 students didn't dub tapes. I used to. It's what students do.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Okay, I'm in a technologies course in college, we did a survey in class and one out of 30 people asked didn't torrent most music and video. That one person who didn't was older so it wasn't that surprising. So they would need one hell of a lawsuit to nail everybody that does it.

If you had done a survey 30 years ago you would have found that only one out of 30 students didn't dub tapes. I used to. It's what students do.

Indeed, did dubbing or radio kill music? Nope, not at all.

hmm must've misinterpreted that then. I will blame that on it being Monday. I agree that it would be as pointless as the war on drugs as far as efficiency versus pay off. I though you were paralleling GW to the war on drugs...

I need to drink more coffee on Mondays...

Crom wrote:Does anyone actually research anything before they post? I find so much misinformation dealing with technology more so than anything else. The fact is, 3D printers will totally change table top war gaming, but not the way you think. It will change the DIY "beer and pretzels" war gaming. You can already print out pretty decent looking models, and people upload the design files for free use. So it only costs you the printer + materials. Then people will start publishing their own rules.

Here is an example of what you can print right now, if you had a 3D printer. You don't need the top of the line model to do so either.




source: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/08/print-your-own-wargaming-minis.html

Yeah, you kinda do. Okay maybe not top of the line but something close to it. I guarantee you that those minis will not look anything at all like those models if you try printing them on a home build 3d printing kit, or even on a shapeways printer. Trust me, I use 3d printers all the time, and some guys in my local gaming group have actually purchased some of those minis before, they didn't come out too well/needed a bunch of post processing.

Canadian 5th wrote:

dajobe wrote:No i would prefer that people not download things illegally. And so you think that just because it costs alot to fight, it instantly becomes ok? its interesting that you mention the drug war...personally, i think that many of them should be legalized, but as long as it is illegal i say "SEND EM TO THE BRIG!"

Ah, so you support the privatization of prisons, the overcrowding and cruelty within. All, in some cases, over something as small as a few ounces of weed?


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Crom wrote:<snip>

Context fail. dajobe said that the US gov't should crack down on piracy of online materials. I said that it would be another waste like the war on drugs.

1: most people who have gone to prison over weed are dealers,i know MANY people at school who have been caught and were issued a ticket, its the dealers that usually go to prison, and that is different than just smoking. And privatization of prisons? i never said that, i realise prisons are becoming overcrowded, but as you said, many people are in for drug related crimes, and one major contributor of that is weed, which is one drug that i feel should be legalized! but breaking the law is breaking the law.

war on drugs is a waste? i will give you that i feel the weed portion is useless, but meth, heroin, speed, lsd, and many many more, are VERY harmful drugs that can make the user hurt not only themselves but others.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Okay, I'm in a technologies course in college, we did a survey in class and one out of 30 people asked didn't torrent most music and video. That one person who didn't was older so it wasn't that surprising. So they would need one hell of a lawsuit to nail everybody that does it.

If you had done a survey 30 years ago you would have found that only one out of 30 students didn't dub tapes. I used to. It's what students do.

This is why I think GW should change their business model on their books for digital downloads. Make it a reasonable yearly subscription rate of like $99 a year and you get all their rule books, army books, that can work in any laptop, desktop, tablet or ereader device and I bet a lot of those pirates may just cough up the $100 a year to access everything in digital format. I mean it is already in digital format before they print it anyway. There is way less over head when doing ebooks, and if done right you can get a yearly subscription off your customers, which in the long run would be a lot higher of profit.

I work in IT in academia and I can tell you the publishing companies are decades behind every other media company because they are scared. They are scared that new digital business models will destroy them and their profits, so they push their old and busted business model. Look at the music industry and video games. I don't think I've bought a retail PC game from a store in a long time. I just buy everything from Steam these days. iTunes Music Store has sold 100s of billions of songs. The digital business model works, and it can be very profitable.

Too bad most companies won't jump on it.

Canadian 5th wrote:
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Commisar Wolfie wrote:And your one class of 30 is now a majority?

That was one who didn't pirate. So 29 of 30 is a vast majority.

Sorry but a sample population of 30 is not a valid representative sample of a total population of 6 billion. Take a stats class.

I regularly deal with a group of about 30 people on a daily basis, since that is roughly the size of my circle of (actual) friends. I know a lot more than 1 person who doesn't torrent.

Enter 5 years form now when 3D printers are super cheap and work very well. It will happen, and people will use them to print GW models. In fact I can see it now, people publishing the drafting files for the models, and modifying them to make them look exactly how they want to. If GW was smart they would start making a business plan now, develop software and license their product to be 3D printed.

People said the same thing about 5 years ago, it still hasn't happened. 3d printing is not really a click and go endeavor btw, there is actually a bit of engineering that goes into it, more than what your average layperson/gamer will know to do. I'm sure one day the technology will be at that level, but its not going to be 10 years from now. The rate of advancement in printing technology has been pretty slow compared to other technologies, and the prices haven't come down all that much either.

Crom wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

Okay, I'm in a technologies course in college, we did a survey in class and one out of 30 people asked didn't torrent most music and video. That one person who didn't was older so it wasn't that surprising. So they would need one hell of a lawsuit to nail everybody that does it.

If you had done a survey 30 years ago you would have found that only one out of 30 students didn't dub tapes. I used to. It's what students do.

This is why I think GW should change their business model on their books for digital downloads. Make it a reasonable yearly subscription rate of like $99 a year and you get all their rule books, army books, that can work in any laptop, desktop, tablet or ereader device and I bet a lot of those pirates may just cough up the $100 a year to access everything in digital format. I mean it is already in digital format before they print it anyway. There is way less over head when doing ebooks, and if done right you can get a yearly subscription off your customers, which in the long run would be a lot higher of profit.

I work in IT in academia and I can tell you the publishing companies are decades behind every other media company because they are scared. They are scared that new digital business models will destroy them and their profits, so they push their old and busted business model. Look at the music industry and video games. I don't think I've bought a retail PC game from a store in a long time. I just buy everything from Steam these days. iTunes Music Store has sold 100s of billions of songs. The digital business model works, and it can be very profitable.

Too bad most companies won't jump on it.

QFT Crom, very astute

That actually is a good idea.
However Canadian 5th is still going to pirate because, well thats just what he does. Might makes right and if he wants it he's gonna take it. Who cares about laws or anything like that. Although right along with that comes rape and murder. So where do you draw the line?

he will probably just claim that people that commit those crimes are filling up the jails, and that it is ok to rape and murder as long as no one is hurt by it...oh wait...

dajobe wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

dajobe wrote:No i would prefer that people not download things illegally. And so you think that just because it costs alot to fight, it instantly becomes ok? its interesting that you mention the drug war...personally, i think that many of them should be legalized, but as long as it is illegal i say "SEND EM TO THE BRIG!"

Ah, so you support the privatization of prisons, the overcrowding and cruelty within. All, in some cases, over something as small as a few ounces of weed?


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Crom wrote:<snip>

Context fail. dajobe said that the US gov't should crack down on piracy of online materials. I said that it would be another waste like the war on drugs.

1: most people who have gone to prison over weed are dealers,i know MANY people at school who have been caught and were issued a ticket, its the dealers that usually go to prison, and that is different than just smoking. And privatization of prisons? i never said that, i realise prisons are becoming overcrowded, but as you said, many people are in for drug related crimes, and one major contributor of that is weed, which is one drug that i feel should be legalized! but breaking the law is breaking the law.

war on drugs is a waste? i will give you that i feel the weed portion is useless, but meth, heroin, speed, lsd, and many many more, are VERY harmful drugs that can make the user hurt not only themselves but others.

Over 50% of our prison population is drug related. Not all of them are dealers, and the word dealer is subjective. Since the amount of drugs considered to be "intent to sell" differs from state to state. Several states have the three strikes your out law and you go to prison. Some are big time dealers, or dealt enough to get a prison sentence, but a lot of them aren't. They are just repeat drug offenders that get caught up in the system.

I hate comparing the US to other countries because it is not applicable, but look at other countries that totally decriminalized drug usage, and legalized a lot of drugs. Their usage and crime related to drugs is exponentially lower than ours.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:
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Commisar Wolfie wrote:And your one class of 30 is now a majority?

That was one who didn't pirate. So 29 of 30 is a vast majority.

Sorry but a sample population of 30 is not a valid representative sample of a total population of 6 billion. Take a stats class.

I regularly deal with a group of about 30 people on a daily basis, since that is roughly the size of my circle of (actual) friends. I know a lot more than 1 person who doesn't torrent.

Not it isn't, but it is telling and I'd be willing to bet that piracy is common among youth in nations with common access to computers and torrent sites.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Enter 5 years form now when 3D printers are super cheap and work very well. It will happen, and people will use them to print GW models. In fact I can see it now, people publishing the drafting files for the models, and modifying them to make them look exactly how they want to. If GW was smart they would start making a business plan now, develop software and license their product to be 3D printed.

People said the same thing about 5 years ago, it still hasn't happened. 3d printing is not really a click and go endeavor btw, there is actually a bit of engineering that goes into it, more than what your average layperson/gamer will know to do. I'm sure one day the technology will be at that level, but its not going to be 10 years from now. The rate of advancement in printing technology has been pretty slow compared to other technologies, and the prices haven't come down all that much either.

if you look at the link I posted people are selling their design files and some are uploading them for free in an open source sort of community. You won't have to design anything as an end user, you will be able to purchase or use other's designs.

The prices have come down a ton. you can get one for under $1,000 now. You can build DIY 3D printers for $500. The 3D printers we had at my last job, 5 years ago were 25k a piece (it was a huge autoCAD and Inventor lab, and they printed their designs), and that same printer is less than half the price now. It was a pretty high end one too.

Also on that link I posted earlier, if you look at the parent company that does the 3D printing you will see someone already designed bolt pistols and are selling them on there. Legalities aside (I am not a lawyer) I don't think you will have to design that much. Plus once you get a 3D model in place it doesn't take much to manipulate it, the hardest part is designing it to scale, and designing it properly.

Who knows though, technology is a very trend centric market, so you may be right in the sense they cannot set a trend for it. However, if they are able to market 3D printers like they do iOS devices, Android devices, GPS, Playstations, and every other consumer electronic we must have. It would be interesting to see how they market it once they become affordable. They could fail to market it properly or you could even see a technology war of different types of 3D printing, say like bluray versus HD DVD. We will just have to wait.

Wow, just wow, just looked at a 3D printer video on youtube... wow, never really heard of these before, that is amazing

dajobe wrote:Wow, just wow, just looked at a 3D printer video on youtube... wow, never really heard of these before, that is amazing

Yeah even 5 years ago the things the students were doing in that inventor lab were pretty cool. They were designing and printing out Halo dudes and Halo vehicles for a to scale diorama. The models didn't look too shabby either.

I think it will just come down to how they market them to consumers and if the trend sets. In the medical field they are looking into technologies to print organs and other forms of living tissue using 3D printers. Think about replacing a liver with a bio-printed one! Talk about space marines, but instead of growing them we will just print them!

if its legal, i'd do it, and considering you can print pretty much anything, might be able to, but companies might put a little barcode or something else that makes it so that the printers cant read the models or something along those lines

dajobe wrote:if its legal, i'd do it, and considering you can print pretty much anything, might be able to, but companies might put a little barcode or something else that makes it so that the printers cant read the models or something along those lines

That would be easy to defeat with paint and better imaging systems.

there is no business model yet, but I would assume some companies would sell you the design files, and then you would print them. How it will be licensed exactly would be a guess. However, I highly doubt miniature manufacturers will sell their designs. As far as copy right goes, as long as it is altered in some way shape or form it is legal, but that is a gray area and you should consult a lawyer, and even then the lawyer may not know.

no i meant like a certain material that would not register with the copiers or a little device that feths up your printer if you try to put it inside, because i doubt if many companies who produce physical products like toys and models want their products being copied for free and would probably put in alot of research and technology to find a way to make it impossible