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Canadian 5th wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:No, it really wouldn't. GW goes under and the inflow of new players will decrease to virtually zero. A large chunk, near 100%, of the newer players at the time of GWs demise would cut their losses and jump ship immediately. All that will be left are the players who have been around for a couple years and the veterans. Within 2 years the couple year group will move on to games that are still being supported, as will the vets. The difference is that the vets will break the game out every once in a while at a convention for nostalgia purposes and the couple year group won't.

I have played several games over the years that have gone under, and this is the pattern that they have always followed. Don't let the seemingly large size of the GW hobby mislead you. If GW had a half way decent game system that was designed to last, this wouldn't be the case, but given its engineered obsolescence its not going to last, because it was never meant to last.

Except that free to play games actually work better than pay to play games. Games like Warhammer online have made more money in free to play mode than elsewhere. GW could capture that market with special materials or even more detailed models that 3d printers can't match. They just need to make an even better product and stay a step ahead of what's free.

Not quite. Free to play games work because there is either no continuing support, or money is made via in game advertisements/microtransactions in the case of video/computer games. In any case GW going under does not make 40k a free to play game, someone would still hold the license and they would have every right to continue the behavior that GW does now towards IP infringement.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:No, it really wouldn't. GW goes under and the inflow of new players will decrease to virtually zero. A large chunk, near 100%, of the newer players at the time of GWs demise would cut their losses and jump ship immediately. All that will be left are the players who have been around for a couple years and the veterans. Within 2 years the couple year group will move on to games that are still being supported, as will the vets. The difference is that the vets will break the game out every once in a while at a convention for nostalgia purposes and the couple year group won't.

I have played several games over the years that have gone under, and this is the pattern that they have always followed. Don't let the seemingly large size of the GW hobby mislead you. If GW had a half way decent game system that was designed to last, this wouldn't be the case, but given its engineered obsolescence its not going to last, because it was never meant to last.

Except that free to play games actually work better than pay to play games. Games like Warhammer online have made more money in free to play mode than elsewhere. GW could capture that market with special materials or even more detailed models that 3d printers can't match. They just need to make an even better product and stay a step ahead of what's free.

Not quite. Free to play games work because there is either no continuing support, or money is made via in game advertisements/microtransactions in the case of video/computer games. In any case GW going under does not make 40k a free to play game, someone would still hold the license and they would have every right to continue the behavior that GW does now towards IP infringement.

Except that I was talking about the scenario where GW goes under because of people pirating both models and rules. A company owning the IP would need to produce high quality models of better materials to give people a reason to buy even a small number of models.

So you see no problem with contributing to a company going out of business which means a lot of people lose jobs during a time when jobs are already scarce enough (at least it is this way in America)?

It's like was brought up in the other thread - it doesn't matter if they can get MP3s for $1, or DVDs for $5 - if they can get it free they will 'cause they're self-centered, selfish pricks who don't give a damn about anything so long as they get theirs.

It's the attitude that Canadian 5th has embodied throughout the thread.

Not really. If a company's policies drive people to resort to such extreme forms of piracy, then it's their own fault.

Canadian 5th wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:No, it really wouldn't. GW goes under and the inflow of new players will decrease to virtually zero. A large chunk, near 100%, of the newer players at the time of GWs demise would cut their losses and jump ship immediately. All that will be left are the players who have been around for a couple years and the veterans. Within 2 years the couple year group will move on to games that are still being supported, as will the vets. The difference is that the vets will break the game out every once in a while at a convention for nostalgia purposes and the couple year group won't.

I have played several games over the years that have gone under, and this is the pattern that they have always followed. Don't let the seemingly large size of the GW hobby mislead you. If GW had a half way decent game system that was designed to last, this wouldn't be the case, but given its engineered obsolescence its not going to last, because it was never meant to last.

Except that free to play games actually work better than pay to play games. Games like Warhammer online have made more money in free to play mode than elsewhere. GW could capture that market with special materials or even more detailed models that 3d printers can't match. They just need to make an even better product and stay a step ahead of what's free.

Not quite. Free to play games work because there is either no continuing support, or money is made via in game advertisements/microtransactions in the case of video/computer games. In any case GW going under does not make 40k a free to play game, someone would still hold the license and they would have every right to continue the behavior that GW does now towards IP infringement.

Except that I was talking about the scenario where GW goes under because of people pirating both models and rules. A company owning the IP would need to produce high quality models of better materials to give people a reason to buy even a small number of models.

I hate to brake this to you, but only a small portion of the populace uses torrents in that way, not nearly enough to support the hobby without continuing support from GW, and it is still illegal and it is still traceable and prosecutable. Unless you're using TOR, GW can still find and prosecute you for torrenting their crap, even after they've gone under, and really its not so difficult.

Omegus wrote:Not really. If a company's policies drive people to resort to such extreme forms of piracy, then it's their own fault.

'Drive people' to piracy?

It's not a company's business policys that does that. Not when you're talking about toy soldiers. It a sense of entitlement, or a complete lack of perspective that does that.

You don't need toy soldiers. If a company's business practices push those toy soldiers out of your reach, you'll survive just fine without them. There's no rationalising this away... the guy recasting his space marines, or downloading his codexes isn't the valiant underdog surviving against the evil practices of a coorporation out to bring him down. He's a guy who wants to play with toy soldiers without having to pay for them first.

TOR is all but useless, since your client of choice is usually sending out your IP anyway. Peerblock or Peerguardian are better defensive measures.

I'd link to the sources that explain this in greater detail, but that is against Dakka rules. Just search for "Bittorrent over Tor isn't a good idea".


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insaniak wrote:

Omegus wrote:Not really. If a company's policies drive people to resort to such extreme forms of piracy, then it's their own fault.

'Drive people' to piracy?

It's not a company's business policys that does that. Not when you're talking about toy soldiers. It a sense of entitlement, or a complete lack of perspective that does that.

You don't need toy soldiers. If a company's business practices push those toy soldiers out of your reach, you'll survive just fine without them. There's no rationalising this away... the guy recasting his space marines, or downloading his codexes isn't the valiant underdog surviving against the evil practices of a coorporation out to bring him down. He's a guy who wants to play with toy soldiers without having to pay for them first.

I'm sure this is frequently the case, but not always.

I play several game systems beyond GW's crap. I purchase the books and models for all of them, frequently at full retail at my LGS.

But I make a particular point out of acquiring any and all GW products as cheaply as possible, whether it's buying probable recasts from Ebay and that Chinese site (about which two threads have been locked today), or reading their books on Scribd. It's not even their prices that "drives" me to do so (although they are ludicrous... how do you switch to a cheaper material and then increase prices?), but their staggering arrogance and continual attacks against their own customer base. In fact, just a few moments ago I acquired Imperial Armour X. I sure as hell am not going to pay $83 + surcharges and shipping for it, especially when all I want is the 4-5 pages of Exorcist fluff.

Omegus wrote:TOR is all but useless, since your client of choice is usually sending out your IP anyway. Peerblock or Peerguardian are better defensive measures.

I'd link to the sources that explain this in greater detail, but that is against Dakka rules. Just search for "Bittorrent over Tor isn't a good idea".


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insaniak wrote:

Omegus wrote:Not really. If a company's policies drive people to resort to such extreme forms of piracy, then it's their own fault.

'Drive people' to piracy?

It's not a company's business policys that does that. Not when you're talking about toy soldiers. It a sense of entitlement, or a complete lack of perspective that does that.

You don't need toy soldiers. If a company's business practices push those toy soldiers out of your reach, you'll survive just fine without them. There's no rationalising this away... the guy recasting his space marines, or downloading his codexes isn't the valiant underdog surviving against the evil practices of a coorporation out to bring him down. He's a guy who wants to play with toy soldiers without having to pay for them first.

I'm sure this is frequently the case, but not always.

I play several game systems beyond GW's crap. I purchase the books and models for all of them, frequently at full retail at my LGS.

But I make a particular point out of acquiring any and all GW products as cheaply as possible, whether it's buying probable recasts from Ebay and that Chinese site (about which two threads have been locked today), or reading their books on Scribd. It's not even their prices that "drives" me to do so (although they are ludicrous... how do you switch to a cheaper material and then increase prices?), but their staggering arrogance and continual attacks against their own customer base. In fact, just a few moments ago I acquired Imperial Armour X. I sure as hell am not going to pay $83 + surcharges and shipping for it, especially when all I want is the 4-5 pages of Exorcist fluff.

If you honestly believe peerguardian and peerblock are effective measures to protect your identity, I feel sorry for you. Really, all that it ends up doing is blocking legitimate users and thus throttling your torrent download speed.

I could say the same about your preference for Tor. My download speeds are satisfactory, and although far from failproof, they offer better protection than Tor.

Canadian 5th wrote:

I still won didn't I?

Ahhh, so you only care about whether or not YOU win. You don't care about the people who get hurt. That explains alot. Like I said, piracy is parasitical.

You get compensated for your work in communism. Just not in money.

If I copy your IP you still have it, if I steal a car you have no car. See the difference?

You are still stealing something that belongs to me.

If I could pirate a car manual and do the repairs myself I would. If I could get a friend to help me with plumbing for less money than a pro I would.

You should get a car manual for owning a car, and if you know how to repair your own car. Good for you. If you have a friend who knows how to fix your plumbing, once again good for you. The thing is that your friend has chosen to provide his service to you for free, while a pro requires money.

If you want the pro's services you need to give him money. Similarly, you are free to enjoy youtubeuser123s free music online. However, when you go to someone who wants moeny in exchange for their music, then you need to give them their money in compensation.

Wow, your words pain me so much... Not.

I really don't care how my words make you feel. I'm just expressing my point.

Bu

I haven't stolen your book, you still have the book. The print run isn't missing anything. You just don't get money for something I wouldn't have paid for anyway.

And why do you get the right to have access my property without paying me?

When you can stop me, then I'll stop.

I wonder what happens if we apply this logic to other forms of crime....


Finally, I have to say, I echo everyones opinion. If you're doing some kind of Robin Hood thing then at least you have SOME justification for your actions. Getting basic necessities, etc. That has SOME justification.

Pirating music, movies, etc doesn't have that justification. You don't NEED those. They are luxuries. If you want luxuries, you pay for them. If you can't afford luxuries, then sucks to be you. You have no right to say "I want it...but I can't afford it. Guess I'll steal it."

Omegus wrote:But I make a particular point out of acquiring any and all GW products as cheaply as possible, whether it's buying probable recasts from Ebay and that Chinese site (about which two threads have been locked today), or reading their books on Scribd. It's not even their prices that "drives" me to do so (although they are ludicrous... how do you switch to a cheaper material and then increase prices?), but their staggering arrogance and continual attacks against their own customer base. In fact, just a few moments ago I acquired Imperial Armour X. I sure as hell am not going to pay $83 + surcharges and shipping for it, especially when all I want is the 4-5 pages of Exorcist fluff.

You realise that this does the exact opposite of refuting my point, right?

No, not really. It's not entitlement that's driving me, it's pure spite.

Omegus wrote:No, not really. It's not entitlement that's driving me, it's pure spite.

Meh. At least you're admitting it.

Omegus wrote:No, not really. It's not entitlement that's driving me, it's pure spite.

That's covered by the 'lack of perspective' part.

Hmm. At this stage, for me the 40K hobby is more about discussions of fluff and satisfying my inner compulsive collector of cool miniatures. I like the Inquisitor Hector Rex model, but not enough to shell out over $50 for it. Along comes some Chinese recaster, that offers me the same model for $19.99 with free shipping (and likely in better condition than I would get from FW), so I purchase it.

That seems a pretty clear example of their policies driving me to seek alternate, possibly illicit means to acquire the miniature in question. Them also being total dick-wads means I get to not feel bad about it. How is my perspective lacking again?

Omegus wrote:I could say the same about your preference for Tor. My download speeds are satisfactory, and although far from failproof, they offer better protection than Tor.

I dont use TOR, I was just making a point that it is the only truly safe way to torrent, and as you pointed out it sucks.

I'd say it isn't really you Omegus since you know your doing it out of spite to GW and that you don't have some kind of fool notion that your doing it for some good cause.

Hey, now, venting my gallbladder of bile is a good cause!

ya ya it is for you but some people seem to have this idea that by undercutting GW they can make the game better for all. And that somehow GW is gonna notice their little actions and suddenly decide to change their business practices and everything is gonna be hunky dory

Well, enough people in Australia et. al flocked to online discounters and Ebay to make GW sit up and take notice. Of course, rather than learn their lesson and make their prices more reasonable (whatever excuses they use to charge 2x for models cannot possibly extend to ebooks as well?), they resorted to tactics of questionable legality to strangle the discounters entirely and labeled everyone that works for or shops from them as "freeloaders".

I never claimed they were above reproach, but two wrongs do not make a right.


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they will get their money one way or another

coolyo294 wrote:Pointless thread is pointless.

I think over 1000 of your posts have been irrelevant spam like this.


Anyway, if I could afford to get a machine like this - http://www.dannychoo.com/post/en/26119/Human+Cloning+in+Japan.html

I would make myself, and all my mates into inquisitor scale figures. It would be brilliant.


And surely, if people are capable of detail like this from printing, than 28mm wouldn't be that far away.

Canadian....I cant believe you used a not joke....

Anyway piracy has been around since the beginning of time so its not going anywhere. Most people are more than happy to pay for a product as long as its in a form that's easy to get. Prime examples are e-books and Netflix. Netflix has had piracy of movies to go down. people want easy access to content in the median they are familiar with. Same with iTunes and with the new advent of the easy access and popularity of eBooks and readers (ie kindle/ipad)

I wish GW would offer ebooks formats for their products. Catalyst game labs has been doing this with their Battletech and other products and it has been very successful(edit : i checked and the pdf are over 50% cheaper than the print versions). They also have free products Including quick-start rules that are aimed at introducing people to the game which i think have gone a long way to reviving the IP which was struggling for a time. I aslo downloaded pdf copys of my rulebooks because I dont want to lug around those things.. On my kindle i can bring all my rulebooks everywhere I go and when Im playing I dont hav to have 3 or 4 books on the table and I can search a book instead of leafing through it trying to find a rule.


Anyway I don't think 3d printing will cause GW to go under if anything I think it will allow them to make the product MUCH more accessible to people which in turn will increase their profits. Yeh there will be people who pirate but the majority will support the ip
and i think it has all gone a long way
)

For the morallity point, too many parasites will kill off anything.

For printing, cheap homemade printers are already good enough to print scenery and rough tank-sized models.
We're a long way off armies of printed one-off models.
Making rubber (?) moulds and using resin or metal still seems the best way to freeload an army together.

But, as hobbyists improve the 3D machines to make better quality models, it'll go mainstream and pro-quality printing will be soon to follow. Look at most other hobby trends, such as the first personal computers, cars, etc.

here's a thought, what happens when 3d printers get small enough and cheap enough that they start entering housholds.... and people start scanning mini's? Think GW will start offering scans to print out?

gendoikari87 wrote:here's a thought, what happens when 3d printers get small enough and cheap enough that they start entering housholds.... and people start scanning mini's? Think GW will start offering scans to print out?

Though this is very far off, I think it would be logical for companies like GW to start selling blueprints to use in 3D printers whale also continuing to produce the normal models. They could offer the blue prints at similar prices to the minis, as you can print as many as you want of each. I think a lot of people would buy blueprints for the 3D printers if and when they are available, as most people will buy a product legitimately if it is not absurdly priced.

It is my firm belief that communism failed due to human nature, and that a market economy is more suited to a race where competitiveness and the need to achieve higher hierarchical status is natural would be more suited. Market economy also has it's drawbacks, as can be seen lately...

Cheexsta wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:Essential service versus entertainment. False dilemma much?

So, if I stole your TV you'd be fine with it?

Or how about if I skim your credit cards? Same result (you losing money); I'm just cutting out the middle man.

Please don't intermix the ideas of property and intellectual property. Intellectual property is a concept created around an aspiration to own an idea. You sell the idea, it gets around, but you wish to keep the idea yours with exclusivity. If I stole your TV AND you got to keep it, at the same time, would YOU be OK with that? I would as an exchange between two individuals I would love to share my property whenever it cost me nothing (neither resources nor time). What we have here, however, when it comes to intellectual property is a concept that is trying to emulate a relation to actual property, but with the important distinction that if you buy my TV, I still get to own it (continuing on that analogy) and also get to dictate roughly how you are allowed to use your TV (I might not like the idea of you watching Fox News). See the difference here?

Now, personally, I'm in a different camp than either the "free piracy for all" and the copyright owners. I just think it ridiculous that one can claim ownership over an idea for such a long time, and consider that an idea would be equal more to a patent, and those are heavily time limited.

More importantly, from a community point of view; giving people the right to earn money from ideas and improvements, both practical and cultural, is important to promote the birth of such ideas, but not allowing the ideas to spread and thus give birth to more ideas is limiting and harming the society in equal measure as keeping the ideas perfectly free.

General Seric wrote:

Commisar Wolfie wrote:mmmmmmm my own chocolate army would be great.

Now that is one miniature material you can guarantee will melt in a hot car.

The gw models sort of already do

Does anyone actually research anything before they post? I find so much misinformation dealing with technology more so than anything else. The fact is, 3D printers will totally change table top war gaming, but not the way you think. It will change the DIY "beer and pretzels" war gaming. You can already print out pretty decent looking models, and people upload the design files for free use. So it only costs you the printer + materials. Then people will start publishing their own rules.

Here is an example of what you can print right now, if you had a 3D printer. You don't need the top of the line model to do so either.




source: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/08/print-your-own-wargaming-minis.html