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clively wrote:If there is no secret, then you can't bluff. Therefore the discussion on bluffs in the text is immaterial. Which means there is absolutely zero reason to say anything other than "Provide a copy of your army list before the game, unless you and your opponent to agree not to exchange lists until the end."

This is exactly right. There is indeed no point to the text in question.

Remove vehicles from the equation for a moment, because that passage is (as I said before) not just discussing vehicles, it's talking about the army list as a whole. Let's say you and your opponent have no vehicles, and decide to share your army lists after the game as the rules suggest.

You both deploy your armies. Assuming your armies are WYSIWYG, what is secret? You can see exactly what you each have on the table.

So you are correct in that there is no bluff, and that this means that the rulebook is babbling on in a meaningless fashion in that particular paragraph. I have no idea just what Alessio thought he was talking about by that whole bit about some players liking 'secrecy'... but it simply doesn't apply to the game. There is no secrecy by default, nor should there be unless you know that you can trust the person you're playing against and you both decide to play that way for the fun of it.

Clively - then you put the marker next to your unit that is ON the table, waiting to disembark from the vehicle, and I see what it is.

Thats what youre missing: its a two step process. One, you identify what unit is in the vehicle. Witha marker, by simply stating what is carried, etc. Two I then MUSt be able to know exactly what that unit is carrying, because your unit is on the table OR you have just told me.

You are not going to get away with leaving models ina case and deploying 3 vehicles and nothing else. I WILL see what models you are intending to use this game or they dont get used. This prevents you from having multiple potential lists that you will be using, and wait to see what im using until deciding.

This means there is no bluff, unless you both agree.

Agree to nos, it's just a little more complicated shellgame to play.

I just recently caught a IG player switching his command-squad flamers for all meltas because their chimera happend to become immobilized on their way to flame my gretchin off an objective, within reach of a battlewagon. He declared it as command chimera at the beginning of the game. When he started to deploy meltas from his case, I assumed it to be the common "meltas are flamer"-proxy everybody does vs orks, but then he started measuring distance and wanted to penetrate with 2d6.

When I called him out on it(why on eath would a chimera with multi-laser and meltas go after gretchin?), he produced a list from the back of his codex, including a melta-command squad and a few minor changes in other places, which was definitely not the list he was using to set up his army.

In the end I let him go, my battlewagon exploded and killed them all. Then I tabled him. But I won't ever play him again unless I have to.

Its the above type of shell game which the identiication is designed to prevent against.

As I said: once you identify exactly which squad out of the units you have on the table waiting to disembark is which, I will know exactly what wargear they have. You will not, and this is meant sincerely, WILL NOT be allowed to claim they are "waiting in the case", as I have seen Jidmahs example of cheating used before now.

I had typed a long post describing exactly what Jidmah describes, the multiple list shell game. Deleted it as I didn't like the way it came across. Point is tho, he and nos are exactly right. This kind of BS is exactly why they put that particular rule in the book.

The last few posts in this thread are quite amusing. Using anecdotal evidence does not validate an argument. In otherwords you have witnessed shellgame antics, so therefore the rule is as you describe it. That is not the case at all.

1. I can give you my list before the game at which time you see my 3 Grey Hunter packs composition.

2. I deploy my Rhinos, telling you that my Grey Hunters are embarked in them, designating each with a marker that matches a marker set for the unit embarked.

3. When disembarked, the marker on the vehicle matches the marker on the unit.

The above three steps fulfills all the requirements as stated by A Note on Secrecy. In addition, it eliminates completely the anecdotal cheating scenarios presented in this thread.

At no time whatsoever are you told to identify the embarked units by how they are equipped. Squad markings, unit markers, banners, paintjobs, etc, etc are all valid methods of identifying embarked units.

Again, there is zero RAW that designates how a squad is equipped as the standard for identifying which squad is embarked in which transport.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Again, there is zero RAW that designates how a squad is equipped as the standard for identifying which squad is embarked in which transport.

What part of "In the spirit of the game, always make it clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle." from page 92 are you having difficulty comprehending?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:...
2. I deploy my Rhinos, telling you that my Grey Hunters are embarked in them, designating each with a marker that matches a marker set for the unit embarked.

The rule is: "In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."

You must say which squads of Grey hunters are embarked in which transport vehicle.

By default you must make it clear which unit is embarked on which transport.

Just saying "Unit Alpha on my army roster" does not make it clear.

Saying "The 5 man grey hunter pack with 2 halberds and one staff and 2 swords, and the (Insert Independent character here)", makes it clear. and this is what the rules require.

No but the markers he placed on the vehicle and with the unit do.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:2. I deploy my Rhinos, telling you that my Grey Hunters are embarked in them, designating each with a marker that matches a marker set for the unit embarked.

The rule simply states that you must clearly demonstrate that the unit you disembark from a vehicle was the one that was inside of it. You do not need to specify the contents of the unit if you can identify it otherwise.

For the third time I will give you this example. I have 2 assault marine squads sitting on the side of the table, they have markers next to each other. One of them is red, and the other is blue. On my two rhinos are a pair of face down markers. I have maintained secrecy in the sense that you do not know which rhino contains which squad, but I can also prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the squad I disembark from any given rhino was the one inside by flipping over the counter.

The above has made it clear that the red unit was embarked in the red rhino at deployment.

The ONLY thing the rule requires you to do is identify the squad, and identify the rhino it is in. It does not state how, merely that this has to be done.

I'm personally in favor of full disclosure in any sort of tournament game, but for a game at my FLGS, the above is perfectly okay in my book. It fits the RAW, it removes any possibility of cheating, and allows me to bluff a little bit.

Yeah, but the rule says "always", not "when you disembark". If there is a rhino with a marker in it driving up the left flank, during your turn, you have to "make clear which unit is embarked in which transport vehicle."(BRB pg. 92) if I ask you at that exact moment, even if you had no intention of disembarking.

If you answer "The unit with the same marker." and you don't show the marker to me, that's not clear.

Wandering - see above.

Tell me WHICH squad is in the vehicle, or you are cheating. Not when you disembark, but art ANY POINT at which i ask

A face down counter does *not* make clear which squad is in the vehicle - it is still one of 2 at that poiint.

From the last few posts, again the disconnect from the rule is displayed.

There is no RAW that sets the standard for identifying squads by how they are equipped. Squad markings matching vehicles as well as squad markers fulfills that requirement set by A Note on Secrecy completely.

If I have told you that GH pack A is in Rhino A, I have clearly identified that Grey Hunter pack A is in Rhino A. If you ask me which Grey Hunter pack out of my 3, I will tell ypu Grey Hunter pack A is in Rhino A, Grey Hunter pack B is in Rhino B, and Grey Hunter pack C is in Rhino C. The individual packs have been clearly identified as to which transports they are embarked. This identification is also reinforced by marking transports either with pack markings or a unit marker that coincides with the specific pack embarked. They have been clearly distinguished not by how they are equipped, but how they have been labeled, marked, and/or painted.

Now, if you then ask what Grey Hunter pack A is equipped with, you are now surpassing the requirements of A Note on Secrecy. I have already clearly told you who is embarked in which transport and have even marked the transports with coinciding markers to the unit embarked.

Does anyone have any RAW that sets the standard for clearly identifying which units are embarked in which transport by the gear they are equipped with? If not, then coinciding pack marking or unit markers is just as valid as a means of identification.

Now point out who GH Pack A is on the table

If you dont you are cheating, as you have not identified the squad.

Once you have shown me what GH Squad A is, I can see from the models on the table what they are armed with. If you do not place models on the table corresponding to GH Squad A, you will be assumed to be playing a shell game and treated accordingly

You fail to understand the difference here, and entirely ignore the requirement to positively identify the actual squad

nosferatu1001 wrote:Now point out who GH Pack A is on the table

If you dont you are cheating, as you have not identified the squad.

Once you have shown me what GH Squad A is, I can see from the models on the table what they are armed with. If you do not place models on the table corresponding to GH Squad A, you will be assumed to be playing a shell game and treated accordingly

You fail to understand the difference here, and entirely ignore the requirement to positively identify the actual squad

If GH pack A is embarked in Rhino A, I can point at the Rhino A and tell you they are in there. If they are disembarked, I can point to the disembarked Grey Hunter A and tell you that they are there. I have fulfilled the requirements of the rule because I did not point to Grey Hunter pack B or Grey Hunter pack C.

I would like to know on what RAW are you claiming that my models must be on display when embarked or when not in play on the table. Can you point out where the rules tell you that my models must be displayed either on a sideboard or even on the table before I deploy them or disembark them?

The standard for identification is not set on gear equipped. You have failed to show that in this entire thread which probably means you have failed to show it in past threads.

DId you fail to read any of the shell game stories, which explain why you must put your models on the table?

If not, read them again.

If you dont put your models out on the table, and identify who is squad A by pointing at squad A, I will assume you are cheating. Bluntly, you are cheating from that point on, as you can have multiple lists and multiple squads hiding in your case.

If youre a friend? Fair enough, youre probably good. Pickup game? Hell no.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I would like to know on what RAW are you claiming that my models must be on display when embarked or when not in play on the table. Can you point out where the rules tell you that my models must be displayed either on a sideboard or even on the table before I deploy them or disembark them?

"always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."

There is the rule that says you MUST make it CLEAR which squads are embarked in which transport.

Saying Pack A does not make it clear.

Saying pack A that is this squad of ten models over here on the side makes it clear.

To just say Pack A is breaking the rules.

Nos- there is no rule anywhere in the rule book that says I must show you the models before they hit the play area. I can have them squirreled away in a tree for all the rules that care. You can ask to see my list and by the rules I have to give it to you. There is nowhere that states you can ask to see my models or that I have to show you before I deploy them.

Point to the rule that says I have to do that.

-cgmckenzie

nosferatu1001 wrote:DId you fail to read any of the shell game stories, which explain why you must put your models on the table?

If not, read them again.

If you dont put your models out on the table, and identify who is squad A by pointing at squad A, I will assume you are cheating. Bluntly, you are cheating from that point on, as you can have multiple lists and multiple squads hiding in your case.

If youre a friend? Fair enough, youre probably good. Pickup game? Hell no.

And as I pointed out, anecdotal evidence does not dictate a rule that you have just made up. I could choke you out at the gaming table, clear your models, and tell the judge that I tabled you on turn one and you fainted in disbelief. Does that mean that GW needs to put no chokeholds in the BRB?

And this still doesn't prevent "shell" games. I can just as easily dispute that I pointed out that squad as being the one identified earlier or use magnetic special ranged weapons to swap out when you are not looking. The supposed cheating that your made up rule is supposed to prevent does not.

So again, I ask you where is the RAW that models must be on display when my units are embarked and/or not in play? As I have pointed out through designation and markings, the squads can clearly be identified as to which transports they are embarked, fulfilling A Note on Secrecy, while not telling you how the individual squads are equipped as a means of identification.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wandering - see above.

Tell me WHICH squad is in the vehicle, or you are cheating. Not when you disembark, but art ANY POINT at which i ask

A face down counter does *not* make clear which squad is in the vehicle - it is still one of 2 at that poiint.

Read the rest of the rule. I believe it ends with the phrase "The choice is yours!"

My point was so long as no cheating can occur, there is no problem with it as long as it is out side of a tournament setting.

If you wish to continue arguing this point, please elaborate what the other option is since the rule clearly states that a choice can be made

DeathReaper wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I would like to know on what RAW are you claiming that my models must be on display when embarked or when not in play on the table. Can you point out where the rules tell you that my models must be displayed either on a sideboard or even on the table before I deploy them or disembark them?

"always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."

There is the rule that says you MUST make it CLEAR which squads are embarked in which transport.

Saying Pack A does not make it clear.

Saying pack A that is this squad of ten models over here on the side makes it clear.

To just say Pack A is breaking the rules.

Then please show me that the standard for identification is pointing out the squad? No one has yet to show me the RAW that equipment and now your point, of showing the squad, is the standard for identification.

Designation of each squad by whatever means, is fulfillment of making them clearly distinguished from each other. It may not be the detailed information you want, but it still clearly distinguishes one from another.

Tyr - the game is a social contract between two players. If you want to continue playing a game then you better have your models out. Otherwise you are already under suspicion for cheating. Slippery slope, crass arguments like yours dont help - stop.


If you refuse to identify the squad, by pointing it out on the table or talking equipment etc, then you have not CLEARLY identified the squad.

If you say "squad A" then you havenot identified the squad - you have identifed a marker for the squad. I have no way to actually identify the squad, thus you have cheated.

Got it yet?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote: As I have pointed out through designation and markings, the squads can clearly be identified as to which transports they are embarked, fulfilling A Note on Secrecy

and as long as those squads are clear to your opponent then you have followed the rule.

This means if you have 3 different units:

Unit A, Unit B, Unit C

Unit A has 10 marines with a meltagun, and a power sword Sgt.

Unit B has 10 marines with a power sword Sgt.

Unit C has 10 marines with 2 flamers and a power fist sgt

If you say Unit A, you must also make it clear which unit unit A is. I.E. If I ask which unit is in that transport, you have to say "Unit A, the one with the 10 marines with the meltagun, and a power sword Sgt, is in that one" anything less and you have not made it clear "which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle" and that is breaking the rules.

I play SM(hypothetical here) and all my squads have different colored shoulder pads. I tell you "the squad with blue shoulders is in the blue rhino, the red squad in the red rhino, and the green squad is in the LR." The squads in the transports have been clearly identified without any confusion or uncertainty. If you want more information about the squads, check my list or wait till they start killing you.

-cgmckenzie

As long as I can see your squads which are red shouldered, blue shouldered and green then youre fine: WYSIWYG means I know can identify the squad.

Anything less and you have identified a marker, and not the squad, and you have cheated.

You don't have to see them before they hit the table top. Show me the rule that says you do.

-cgmckenzie

Out of curiosity, CGM, what would be the point of the rule if it were interpreted in the manner in which you describe?

It wouldn't stop impropriety, and as far as I can gather, that really seems to be the only reason to include such a rule in the game.

cgmckenzie wrote:You don't have to see them before they hit the table top. Show me the rule that says you do.

-cgmckenzie

If you don't have them on the tabletop and don't tell me what exact squad is in there, I'm not clear which squad is embarked in which transport. The answer "Squad A" is just as good as me answering "Orks". There are orks in all my battlewagons and I will simply switch out the respective squad leaders to correspond to the vehicles marking. My color scheme allows me to do that, so if it suits me better the yellow camouflage nob is part of the nob squad today and, the tank busta nob suddenly found himself leading yellow camouflaged boyz and a nob with one shoulderpad in a fitting colors recently joined the tankbustas. Oh, I even have fitting special weapons of each kind and marking to fit with my boyz squads, so I simply switch out rokkits from one unit to the other if they are closer to the opponent.

Even if you know my army, and you know that all boyz squads have an apropriate colored nob, nobz in nobz squads have two different colors for shoulderpads and tank bustas have yellow rockits instead of red ones, I could still cheat you by playing shells with special weapons. You are not clear whether the red, yellow or green boyz are bringing rokkits until I tell you so. I could even have my bigmek jumping around battlewagons if I wanted, using your shady systems.

Point being, no matter your color scheme or marking system, it's not clear to your opponent, mostly because he didn't paint your army or even knows what you own.

Whenever you ask me what's inside the yellow battlewagon, I have to answer "Yellow shootaboyz, no special weapons, joined by the red Bigmek". "Yellow squad" or even "orks" is cheating, because "yellow squad" could suddenly become Nobz.

If you want to play "I activate my trap card!" without having to agree to do so, you really should move to Yu-Gi-Oh.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Then please show me that the standard for identification is pointing out the squad? No one has yet to show me the RAW that equipment and now your point, of showing the squad, is the standard for identification.

The standard is what the rules says. You have to make it clear to your opponent.

So when your opponent is satisfied that they are clear on what is in which transport, you have satisfied the requirement.

This isn't a situation where you can supply the bare minimum information and call it good. It's entirely down to how much information your opponent needs in order for them to be clear on just what is going on.

If you have marked the squads or otherwise proved that the squad that entered the transport at deployment is the same as the one jumping out and crumping heads, you are fine. That can be with tokens that are flipped, squad markings, or something else. As long as your opponent isn't misrepresenting the squad in the transport or changing which is in which, he is fine.

Take this example:

Joe has 3 trukks full of orks. He has 3 boxes, each with one squad in it and only the models for that squad. The models in the blue box are in the blue trukk, the red box the red trukk, and the yellow box the yellow trukk.

You don't know what is in each squad, but it has been clearly indicated which squads are in which transport and that is all the rules call for. Not models, not wargear, but which squads.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:You don't have to see them before they hit the table top. Show me the rule that says you do.

-cgmckenzie

To me, this is the only argument in favor of the "hidden" side that follows the rules.

You basically have 2 options:

1) Full disclosure of all units. This includes exactly which unit is in what transport, what that unit is equipped with, and what units are in reserves and what they are equipped with.

2) Disclosure of only units on the board, everything else is hidden. This means that you can say "Squad 1 is in this Rhino. Squad 2 is in this Rhino." More details as to what is in the squad is not available. This also extends to units in reserves. You only have to declare which units will be deep striking or outflanking, again by squad numbers or another appropriate information. What those squads in transports or in reserves actually are will be a surprise to the opponent.


Note: I HATE playing by method #2. But, it does follow the RAW. (Just don't try it in a tourney).