Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The best material for VC since the 6th army book, was the Army of Sylvania from Storm of Chaos, and then Mat Wards (yup) awesome campaign in White Dwarf #308-310 'Return of the Lichemaster' heavy with Barrow King fluff and rules. I'd love to see GW spin something out of that.

Small update:

Private_SeeD wrote:I've been told that one of the reasons VC are being released in Jan is to reign in the crazy amount of magical item/toys they have. Also the knights were supposed to be released when the Terrorgheist Was released but got pulled at the last second and involved scrapping quite a few White dwarf.
Also randomly December will contain a number of mini releases of a few armies (I knw it's not VC related)

Harry wrote:Some bits from me. The 'black coach kit' is not a straight replacement (like say the steam tank was for the Empire) and it is a dual kit. Also, we do get riders ... but they are not straight replacement for the black knights either.

Some speculation from different sides that it may only be a miniature update, not a new army book.

Knights? Hmmm

Also crazy amount of magical items? That doesnt sound like a normal 8th book (you know, bump up the cost of some items to obscene levels and take out 50% of the list)

kenshin620 wrote:
Also crazy amount of magical items? That doesnt sound like a normal 8th book (you know, bump up the cost of some items to obscene levels and take out 50% of the list)

I'd assume it's a reference to the current book, which has 4 pages of Magic Items and 2 pages of Vampiric Powers.

Ahhh ok I think I understand now

Kroothawk wrote:

Harry wrote:Some bits from me. The 'black coach kit' is not a straight replacement (like say the steam tank was for the Empire) and it is a dual kit. Also, we do get riders ... but they are not straight replacement for the black knights either.

Going by that, they're not replacing the Black Coach or Black Knight oldass models, but adding new units with new models? Odd. I'm sure VC players will be perfectly happy with new models for both and not new units.

-Loki- wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Harry wrote:Some bits from me. The 'black coach kit' is not a straight replacement (like say the steam tank was for the Empire) and it is a dual kit. Also, we do get riders ... but they are not straight replacement for the black knights either.

Going by that, they're not replacing the Black Coach or Black Knight oldass models, but adding new units with new models? Odd. I'm sure VC players will be perfectly happy with new models for both and not new units.

Or it means that it's "not a straight replacement".

What I'm getting out of it is that it is a Black Coach/Knight kit--but it's also going to feature the ability to build something else too.

-Loki- wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Harry wrote:Some bits from me. The 'black coach kit' is not a straight replacement (like say the steam tank was for the Empire) and it is a dual kit. Also, we do get riders ... but they are not straight replacement for the black knights either.

Going by that, they're not replacing the Black Coach or Black Knight oldass models, but adding new units with new models?...

Yes. That is what I meant.

So it's not unreasonable to make a conclusion that Blood Knights are being done in plastic and Black Knights are being dropped from the book?

Harry wrote:Yes. That is what I meant.

Thanks for stopping by here again, Harry . We like it when you pop in every 6 months or so "in the flesh" so to speak

Kanluwen wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Harry wrote:Some bits from me. The 'black coach kit' is not a straight replacement (like say the steam tank was for the Empire) and it is a dual kit. Also, we do get riders ... but they are not straight replacement for the black knights either.

Going by that, they're not replacing the Black Coach or Black Knight oldass models, but adding new units with new models? Odd. I'm sure VC players will be perfectly happy with new models for both and not new units.

Or it means that it's "not a straight replacement".

What I'm getting out of it is that it is a Black Coach/Knight kit--but it's also going to feature the ability to build something else too.

Seems most likely to me. I mean, how much can you do with undead riders? Wights, Vampires... Ethereals?

Oh. Goodie. A new kit for something that almost no one bothers to take in 8th anyway due to the magic draining rules. And of course the option to make something else which will undoubtedly be better than a black coach anyway. Sadly, none of these new things actually address the core issue for VC. I mean, I don't MIND having the army being shown a little love as a reminder that GW hasn't forgotten about the army, but, um....

BRETTONIANS!!!
WOOD ELVES!!!

Dwarves.

Remember them?

For sake of accuracy Harry also posted this over on vampirecounts.net:

The black coach kit is not a remake of the existing black coach and it is dual kit.
So much like other recent releases you will be able to build two quite different things.
The other thing is NOT a siege engine.

The riders are not black knights ... they are also something new.

The monsterous infantry are obviously something new but they are unlike the monsterous infantry of any army.

So lots of new entries in the book lots of new models.
If life got any better ... I couldn't live with myself.

Exciting times ahead for Vampire Counts

All the best,
Harry

Lots of new entries? Cue a year before a certain entry gets an official model

Also, MI unlike MI of other armies?

GASP Etheral MI?

That all sounds exciting. I can't wait for the release, or for more solid rumors.

Making absolutely, 100% wild guesses here but what I'm thinking is this:

1) The Black Coach Dual Kit will be a Black Coach as we see it now will be gone, but the "new" Coach will have two defined roles. The first one grants Magic Resistance to itself and the army surrounding it, the second grants Killing Blow.
2) The Cavalry. We won't see "Blood Knights" or "Black Knights", but rather a Knight of the Blood Dragon Bloodline with his Wight "Men-At-Arms".
3) The Flesh Golems. We won't see them as a single unit, but rather as an upgrade for a Zombie unit. Maybe having them will grant some kind of special bonus or something, I don't know.

Kanluwen wrote:Making absolutely, 100% wild guesses here but what I'm thinking is this:

1) The Black Coach Dual Kit will be a Black Coach as we see it now will be gone, but the "new" Coach will have two defined roles. The first one grants Magic Resistance to itself and the army surrounding it, the second grants Killing Blow.
2) The Cavalry. We won't see "Blood Knights" or "Black Knights", but rather a Knight of the Blood Dragon Bloodline with his Wight "Men-At-Arms".
3) The Flesh Golems. We won't see them as a single unit, but rather as an upgrade for a Zombie unit. Maybe having them will grant some kind of special bonus or something, I don't know.

Eh. Not only do I think those to be unlikely, but I hope they are untrue.

Harry wrote:

Ouroborus wrote:Besides the Flesh Golem, are there any rumors of any other new units?

Yes.
If you read into the posted rumours just a little bit.
If there is a black coach that isn't exactly a black coach and it makes something else thats defo not a black coach.
If there are riders that are not black knights thats another thing.
Obviously the Terrorgeist will be in.
Hastings said there is a new mini for Krell so he will be in ... so at least one new character.
The female Vampire could be seen as a return to the book of the Lahmian Bloodline.

So Yes I would say there are plenty of rumours for new stuff.

My understanding is the book has five new units + Lords/Heroes.

That is alot of exciting new options/builds.

BRING IT ON!
(...)
hastings didn't specify beyond 'female Vampire'.
I am making an assumption based on something else I heard.

kenshin620 wrote:Lots of new entries? Cue a year before a certain entry gets an official model

Also, MI unlike MI of other armies?

GASP Etheral MI?

Nah, flying MI as in a box of 3 Varghulf

So, it's basically going to be "Army Book: Von Carsteins" again, but this time with the option for Special Characters to make it something else (No doubt Krell will play a part in some Barrow King or Necromancer-themed list, and Ms. Lamia was mentioned too)?

I guess that's better than the options now, at least a degree of representation, but not exactly favorable of "You must have [x] character to be [y]" requirements. Then again, this may be because nearly every one of them, even "opening" the new list, never compares to the old back-of-the-book lists.

Kanluwen wrote:Making absolutely, 100% wild guesses here but what I'm thinking is this:

1) The Black Coach Dual Kit will be a Black Coach as we see it now will be gone, but the "new" Coach will have two defined roles. The first one grants Magic Resistance to itself and the army surrounding it, the second grants Killing Blow.
2) The Cavalry. We won't see "Blood Knights" or "Black Knights", but rather a Knight of the Blood Dragon Bloodline with his Wight "Men-At-Arms".
3) The Flesh Golems. We won't see them as a single unit, but rather as an upgrade for a Zombie unit. Maybe having them will grant some kind of special bonus or something, I don't know.

I like the idea of a Black Coach with lots of options - epxcially if more of the blood lines are represented - there coud be something to do with the Strigori?

I like the idea of the Blood Dragon and his Wight Knights / Foot Knights (should really bring bakc the Rieksguard on foot too )

Flesh Golems - Kinda prefer a Special character bodyguard type but "Super zombies" idea is also fun, very Res Evil

I am sad that the majority of the fun and flavourful magic items will dispaear as they did in the two most recent army books :( Hopefully the Vampire powers will remain in some form to at least give some chance of representing the Non Carnstien Vampires - who are often much more interesting. After all Ogre Big Names did stay - watered down and reduced :(

Bloodwin wrote:Nah, flying MI as in a box of 3 Varghulf

Uhg, I would hate that. And it would make no sense fluffwise, I was under the impression that Vargulfs were solitary creatures.

ph34r wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Making absolutely, 100% wild guesses here but what I'm thinking is this:

1) The Black Coach Dual Kit will be a Black Coach as we see it now will be gone, but the "new" Coach will have two defined roles. The first one grants Magic Resistance to itself and the army surrounding it, the second grants Killing Blow.
2) The Cavalry. We won't see "Blood Knights" or "Black Knights", but rather a Knight of the Blood Dragon Bloodline with his Wight "Men-At-Arms".
3) The Flesh Golems. We won't see them as a single unit, but rather as an upgrade for a Zombie unit. Maybe having them will grant some kind of special bonus or something, I don't know.

Eh. Not only do I think those to be unlikely, but I hope they are untrue.

Yeah it would be unlikely, but I was thinking in terms of how GW might go.

-A Black Coach having the 'Vampire' special rule and allowing the regenerating Vampire within to exert his influence on the army, ala the Corpse Cart and its Balefire/Unholy Lodestone upgrades turning them into two effectively different beasts but still the same unit type.
-The second one is just guesswork. If I were Phil Kelly or one of the GW writers, that's what I would do if I were told to alter the dynamic of the VC army. Making "Riders of the Damned" or "Revenants" rather than the "Black Knights" we have now is totally something I can imagine them doing, and giving them fluff to make it so that it's Knights of Blood Keep making another appearance would definitely be within their way to go.
-The Flesh Golem you are absolutely right about them being "unlikely", but I do think it would be something unexpected and quite frankly a smart way to do it for them. If the Flesh Golems effectively 'spread' throughout the Zombie units that you could raise, or they have something like an alternate Black Coach which is a "Lab on Wheels" for a Necrarch, where the Lab churns out Flesh Golems based upon casualties inflicted by Undead units within a certain radius or Corpse Carts--that'd definitely be "unlike the Monstrous Infantry of any other army" I think.

Admittedly, I might just be wishlisting or overthinking it--but there's very little to really go upon.

Kanluwen wrote:So it's not unreasonable to make a conclusion that Blood Knights are being done in plastic and Black Knights are being dropped from the book?

I think that's completely unreasonable, actually. Firstly, the Blood Knights kit is too pretty to retired or redo (however few GW sells because of the price). Secondly, Black Knights and Blood Knights ride significantly different mounts. If the new kit is dual-purpose (with the ability to make Black Knights out of them) it must feature skeletal steeds, meaning the second option probably has nothing to do with Blood Dragons or mounted vampires.

My guesses:

1. Split the Black Knight concept in two. One unit will consist of corporeal wights, heavily armoured, killing blow, etc. The second option will be true Ethereal cavalry (not sure how the riders will differ.... mounted Wraiths, maybe?)

2. Zombie cavalry! If the new skeletal steed sculpts are kind of a combination of sloughing flesh and exposed bones they'd be an aesthetic fit for both rotten zombie riders and bony, sterile wights.

753. Ghoul riders? This would be pretty dumb, imo, but it would increase the viability of a Ghoul King army theme (building on the emergence of the Terrorgeist)

edit:

Kanluwen wrote:
-The Flesh Golem you are absolutely right about them being "unlikely", but I do think it would be something unexpected and quite frankly a smart way to do it for them. If the Flesh Golems effectively 'spread' throughout the Zombie units that you could raise, or they have something like an alternate Black Coach which is a "Lab on Wheels" for a Necrarch, where the Lab churns out Flesh Golems based upon casualties inflicted by Undead units within a certain radius or Corpse Carts--that'd definitely be "unlike the Monstrous Infantry of any other army" I think.

The "lab on wheels" is a really great idea. Ideally it would be an upgraded mount option for an upgraded Necromancer option. I'm not sure I like your hypothetical gameplay mechanic, though, since it seems like something that would be incredibly annoying for opponents (having to deal with multiple single model units of monstrous infantry).

Here is the logical break down or process of GW

Black Coach.

Is it a large kit? Yes
Will it be do able in fine cast? Not efficiently.
Would it be done in plastic? Yes its the most sensible thing to do.
How would we make profit back on a plastic kit for a unit that is probably going to be Rare? Same thing as all the latest large size kits since Skavens release.
Make it multi purpose kit that can be used on 2 different army book entry units + extra bits to go around the rest of the VC army.

The sensible thing in recreating Blood Knights and Black Knights.

Main issue is how different they look, this creates problem whether to create 2 separate kits or dropping Black Knight out ( They are too old to be made into Finecast )
Solution: instead of erasing Black Knights, GW can redesign a new aesthetic look to them (like all the new plastic hybrid ktis ) . They can share same kit with some minor difference in load out.
Different head is a no brainer, perhaps Blood Knight uses lances, while they have extra axes and swords as Wight Blade for Black Knights.

Altruizine wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So it's not unreasonable to make a conclusion that Blood Knights are being done in plastic and Black Knights are being dropped from the book?

I think that's completely unreasonable, actually. Firstly, the Blood Knights kit is too pretty to retired or redo (however few GW sells because of the price). Secondly, Black Knights and Blood Knights ride significantly different mounts. If the new kit is dual-purpose (with the ability to make Black Knights out of them) it must feature skeletal steeds, meaning the second option probably has nothing to do with Blood Dragons or mounted vampires.
My guesses:

1. Split the Black Knight concept in two. One unit will consist of corporeal wights, heavily armoured, killing blow, etc. The second option will be true Ethereal cavalry (not sure how the riders will differ.... mounted Wraiths, maybe?)

2. Zombie cavalry! If the new skeletal steed sculpts are kind of a combination of sloughing flesh and exposed bones they'd be an aesthetic fit for both rotten zombie riders and bony, sterile wights.

Now you're cookin' with gas.

One thing I hadn't really considered was simply that Nightmares become the 'standard' mount for both Black Knights and Blood Knights, maybe with Blood Knights getting a nastier version that would look the same.

753. Ghoul riders? This would be pretty dumb, imo, but it would increase the viability of a Ghoul King army theme (building on the emergence of the Terrorgeist)

See, I think with the "Ghoul King" army theme, people have gotten too fixated on the idea of "Ghouls! Ghouls! Ghouls!".
Strigoi were always supposed to be the "bestial" nature of the Vampires, cut loose. I could see Varghulfs or Super Dire Wolves taking up the Ghoul King's "cavalry" role.

Kanluwen wrote:
-The Flesh Golem you are absolutely right about them being "unlikely", but I do think it would be something unexpected and quite frankly a smart way to do it for them. If the Flesh Golems effectively 'spread' throughout the Zombie units that you could raise, or they have something like an alternate Black Coach which is a "Lab on Wheels" for a Necrarch, where the Lab churns out Flesh Golems based upon casualties inflicted by Undead units within a certain radius or Corpse Carts--that'd definitely be "unlike the Monstrous Infantry of any other army" I think.

The "lab on wheels" is a really great idea. Ideally it would be an upgraded mount option for an upgraded Necromancer option. I'm not sure I like your hypothetical gameplay mechanic, though, since it seems like something that would be incredibly annoying for opponents (having to deal with multiple single model units of monstrous infantry).

Yeah, it sounds like it would be annoying for opponents...

So, it sounds exactly like something GW would do.

Kroothawk wrote:

ps: Flesh Golems sound daft....

In fairness I am not sure that is what they are ... That phrase is just one that has been used in rumours here for years ... to describe an unknown big zombie like creature on a 40mm base.

Mirbeau wrote:Not Harry but... rotters, the lot of them. Well, with an exception.

ihavetoomuchminis wrote:About the Monstruous infantry unit, i've been told that they are more of Big ghouls than big zombies. Oh, and the models can have something no MI in the game have yet..... maybe something like the terrorgheist, but smaller? Don't know, just guessing.

Skirmish.

-Matt

I like the idea of ghouls riding direwolves, personally. And, although this has been done in other armies (Skaven/LM) I think a big giant zombie or zombie Ogres would be alot of fun to have shambling inside zombie blocks. You could even have a special attack where the big guy picks up a zombie and hucks it at his enemies for a 8" killing blow attack, or a great weapon or the like. Sac a zombie, get a special attack. This would be a pretty fun (and different) idea for a MI model...

I could understand a Flesh Golem as in the D&D "Animated construct of flesh", if only because of Necrarchs. If anyone else has the 6th Edition Army Book on hand, it provides a ready example (a Fairy / Forest spirit that was torn apart by a Necrarch in experiments). Fluff-wise, it can be anything from prized Ogre bodies animated for war (prized because Ogres are hard as nails, so acquiring one's body that is still useable is a bit difficult) to experiments with Warpstone to just straight-old "I wonder what would happen if I started stitching a bunch of Zombies / Ghouls together".

Problem being that the only niches I can see such filling are either a pseudo-Giant-monster-thing (which Vampires already have via Vargulf, unless this is to be a Non-Vampire list variety akin to Wolf & Boar chariots), or it's a Troll analogue (which without Vomit attacks would need an interesting rule to make worthwhile). Hm, Unbreakable Undead that lacks the Unstable rule? Could see that somewhere in the list, something that's thrown in to tie things up and smash a few faces as it does so.

~ ~ ~ ~

I don't exactly like the idea of Ghoul Cavalry, mostly because they skulk in graveyards and sewers and what-not. They're scavengers, typically along the fringes of society, and a mob of Ghouls on Wolves just doesn't work. Now, Wolves that can be sick'd from the unit instead (Like the old Sabretusks), those I could see.

~ ~ ~ ~

My understanding of the Strigoi was (and anyone who knows more feel free to correct me) that:

1) They started off like most all the other Vampire Bloodlines. Lord converted by what would become the Lamian bloodline's matriarch, part of ruling caste, etcetera.

2) When the Nehek' realm was sacked, they scattered like most other Vampires. However, unlike the other factions which either dissolved into personal projects (Blood Dragon combat-hunting, Necrarch studies) or their own projects of power / infiltration (Lamians and Von Carsteins), the Strigoi tried to recapture the splendor of their homeland. Create cities, rule a populace, etcetera.

3) For the most part, they did this well enough. They had a people under them who were at least somewhat loyal, life went on for their living serfs (arguably better than for the remaining living of Nehekhara), and so on. However, eventually in one campaign, the majority of their military strength was away from their realms as Orcs invaded. Their lands were pretty much sacked / destroyed, leaving only a few isolated communities and those who were away alive.

4) The Strigoi turned to their brethren for aid, which was met with resounding "Lolno"s as people either just didn't care for those outside their bloodline (or even then), frowned upon the Strigoi's activities, or were just general dicks.

5) Strigoi, hunted by both Vampires and other civilizations, went into isolation and started to devolve as they embraced the "beast within" in order to survive.


This about right for a Strigoi summary?

Minsc wrote:I could understand a Flesh Golem as in the D&D "Animated construct of flesh", if only because of Necrarchs. If anyone else has the 6th Edition Army Book on hand, it provides a ready example (a Fairy / Forest spirit that was torn apart by a Necrarch in experiments). Fluff-wise, it can be anything from prized Ogre bodies animated for war (prized because Ogres are hard as nails, so acquiring one's body that is still useable is a bit difficult) to experiments with Warpstone to just straight-old "I wonder what would happen if I started stitching a bunch of Zombies / Ghouls together".

It's not just Necrarchs that do this. There's a breif mention in the 7th edition book about Vlads army containing large undead 'seige monsters', which I always thought of as large things made of various large dead creatures stitched together.

The only Vampires I would see as not using things like Undead contructs like Flesh Golems would be Blood Dragons. 6th edition Lahmians as well probably, but with 7th edition and the short story of Neferata having zombies guarding the Silver Pinnacles gates, Lahmians would use them as well now.