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As long as the Word Bearers were out there mucking around, the Heresy would have happened in some form. Remember that not only were they the first Legion to turn to Chaos, they were the first to turn by decades. And it's not just that they turned from the Emperor to Chaos, they had actively been looking for someone other than the Emperor to follow for decades before that. They wanted to believe, follow and worship something greater than themselves so badly that if Chaos hadn't existed, they'd have just ended up on the side of the Tyranids or C'Tan/Necrons. Those are kind of crappy substitutions for the Dark Gods, but they are impressive enough that those spamheads would probably have fallen for them.

Durza wrote:Again, which legions and when. And Fulgrim isn't the only one who promoted someone with the potential to fall. Eidolon was good at what he did. There was no reason for him not to be in charge, since the Emperor was smart enough to know that telling his sons about the biggest threat they would ever face was a bad idea.

Iron Hands, the closest legions to them, Fulgrim apparently feel slighted by being rescued, for it suggest that he actually made a mistake.
Luna Wolves, not Fulgrim himself, but Eidolon acted all high and mighty despite the fact Tarik just saved their asses.
Horus himself thought to reprimand Fulgrim for his legion's attitude, but Sanguinius persuaded him not to.
Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

What was Eidolon good at doing? Telling his men to go on suicide missions then claim all the credits to himself?

>Implying this wasn't the Emperor's plan from the beginning.

Come on, the Emprah isn't slowed, he knew all this stuff would happen, he's that bloody powerful. The only thing he couldn't see was who would win the fight between he and Horus, and even then Big E had an "I Win" button just in case things didn't go well, which of course he used. The Emperor's plan was probably to ascend to godhood at some point anyways, since even IF he managed to conquer the Webway and kill all the Eldar the warp would still be around. Him being on the Throne for 10,000 years getting fed psyker souls is probably just Plan B, though he most likely wasn't looking forward to it.

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:Again, which legions and when. And Fulgrim isn't the only one who promoted someone with the potential to fall. Eidolon was good at what he did. There was no reason for him not to be in charge, since the Emperor was smart enough to know that telling his sons about the biggest threat they would ever face was a bad idea.

Iron Hands, the closest legions to them, Fulgrim apparently feel slighted by being rescued, for it suggest that he actually made a mistake.

Yeah, them daemons do mess people up a bit.

Luna Wolves, not Fulgrim himself, but Eidolon acted all high and mighty despite the fact Tarik just saved their asses.

Yes, Eidolon is annoying, but that's one person.

Horus himself thought to reprimand Fulgrim for his legion's attitude, but Sanguinius persuaded him not to.

Maybe because Sanguinius thought it might be a bit insulting to tell him that one of his commanders is a childish baby? Any of them would've been annoyed about it, but Fulgrim would've probably acted on it.

Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.

What was Eidolon good at doing? Telling his men to go on suicide missions then claim all the credits to himself?

Personal combat. He was self obsessed, but he must have been good at something to get promoted. And Fulgrim wasn't the only primarch to promote someone like him anyway.

Eidolon wasn't just one man. He was a Lord Commander, that out-ranked the other Lord Commander. Literally, he was the highest ranking Astartes in the Emperor's Children.

Durza wrote:

Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.
.

It was also an Emperor's Children that betrayed the loyalists at that palace. Tarvitz was hardly a typical Emperor's Children.
Example's of Fulgrim's actions are somewhat hard to find, consider that he only appear briefly outside of his own book. And in his own book he is under the influence of the daemon sword most of the time.

You know I thought about this question in the OP again and decided to look at things another way. There was no way the rebellion wasn't going to happen. Simply because of the visions Horus received about what the held. Each one was what happened when Horus rebelled and lost possibly implying the Gods could see what was to come, but not what might come to pass like the Eldar farseers and the cabal claimed to have been able to.
From the scattering of the Primarchs (perhaps to not so random places ), to laying the trap of "salvation" for Magnus to use for his Legions to the Chaos Gods being able to prophesise Lorgars arrival on Cadia... With all the planning the powers did in order to have these events turn their way it would seem Chaos actually got exactly what they wanted .

So them IF the Emperor is indeed the end all be all of foresight, surely on that narrow road Humanity's path would have to take to survive in the galaxy, he would have seen that warp powered superbeings were a bad idea mmmmkay Or does the long game have a longer game, like this is the fire what shall temper the sword of humanity to take their brand of speciesism to the stars and make sure no other species exists. (Barring orks unless they get some really good weedkiller).

The single thing that would have prevented all of this is simply if the emperor had never been "born".

Either he was:

1. A complete and total blind fool who happened to have some neato powers; or,

2. He orchestrated the whole thing to become a warp god.

Either way, the Emperor himself has been the danger to humanity.

There's really no other way to describe it. Either he completely failed at keeping 21 primarchs (Alpharius you know..) together on his path, or he has thus far succeeded by both throwing humanity into a never ending war and creating a massive religion around him.

At this point I think the jury is still out; however, there are numerous hints that everything happened as he wanted it to: Blood to keep Khorne sated, intrigue to blind Tzeentch, disaster and a rotting imperium for Nurgle, and more dead Eldar to feed Slaanesh.

Basically, keep Chaosoccupied until enough of humanity worships Him and his Throne finally fails allowing for his release back into the warp as it's conqueror.

PresidentOfAsia wrote:What are some things(especially small things) that could of been done to prevent the Horus Heresy?

Not having primarchs in the first place.

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.
.

It was also an Emperor's Children that betrayed the loyalists at that palace. Tarvitz was hardly a typical Emperor's Children.
Example's of Fulgrim's actions are somewhat hard to find, consider that he only appear briefly outside of his own book. And in his own book he is under the influence of the daemon sword most of the time.

Exactly. They made all the big moves. Definite Warmaster material.

clively wrote:The single thing that would have prevented all of this is simply if the emperor had never been "born".

Either he was:

1. A complete and total blind fool who happened to have some neato powers; or,

2. He orchestrated the whole thing to become a warp god.

Either way, the Emperor himself has been the danger to humanity.

There's really no other way to describe it. Either he completely failed at keeping 21 primarchs (Alpharius you know..) together on his path, or he has thus far succeeded by both throwing humanity into a never ending war and creating a massive religion around him.

At this point I think the jury is still out; however, there are numerous hints that everything happened as he wanted it to: Blood to keep Khorne sated, intrigue to blind Tzeentch, disaster and a rotting imperium for Nurgle, and more dead Eldar to feed Slaanesh.

Basically, keep Chaosoccupied until enough of humanity worships Him and his Throne finally fails allowing for his release back into the warp as it's conqueror.

... Thanks to Him humanity survived at least another 10,000 years and still have a fairly powerful galactic empire.
There wouldn't have been any heresy without Him but there would also be no Imperium and the scattered remains of humanity would slowly die out, even those that survive the Age of Strife would still be eaten by the nids or killed by the necrons without a fight when they came around.

Durza wrote:Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.

Saul Tarvitz was repeatedly stated to be a rare exception among the haughty ranks of the Emperor's Children, and was essentially ostracized by the other commanders for his lack of a pompous attitude.

Pilau Rice wrote:It's out on the Black Library site and our local GW had it's Birthday, I picked up Deliverance Lost as well

Ah, I see. Unfortunately pressed for funds, so I can not get it.

They are his generals to wage war across the stars, with the Webway complete he wouldn't need to rely on them so much, if at all. The Emperor would be able to send his troops through the gateway himself. He managed with the Primarchs well enough in the early days of the Great Crusade. That's what I think anyhoo. And that's kinda what I am saying if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs that they weren't going to be waging war anymore, that they would be playing scrabble and baking cakes, then they would be a bit miffed and yeah, justified. The Emperor creates tools that he can throw away when he doesn't need them anymore. His main concern is for humankind.

So... Their fears that they would be rendered obsolete were justified then? Welp, that's not speaking very well in the Emperor's defense, if he really did consider the Primarchs tools to be discarded when no longer useful.

When Horus is having a breakdown he says that being the Warmaster is too much and that he can't read men like the Lion or something like that. I'll find the page and update later.

Where? Are you referring to his short breakdown when gak with the Interex goes south? Just read it and the Lion was not mentioned once.

I'll have a refresh later, but what you've said is along the same lines as what I have said. The Emperor got angry at Angron.

Yeah man, how unreasonable of Angron, not abandoning those he considers family to die.

Not at all. I'm just reiterating the point that they didn't stop using their powers. Sorcery probably was the wrong term in reference to the use of their powers, but the two major incantations performed by Magnus with aid of his Sons were major use of Sorcery. He had good intentions, fair enough, but he still chose to ignore all that the Emperor said, after the first one where he contacted Horus, perhaps he should have thought to use an Astropath? I know he dismisses it as unreliable but the outcome would have been better for him and Terra. With Amon and Ankhu Anen, we don't know what they did to try and discern what Magnus was doing, maybe they had the assistance of their Tutelaries.

Oh no doubt, Magnus did use sorcery to contact Horus and the Emperor, at the very least it resembled sorcery and would not help his case. I would not argue against Magnus being arrogant and believing he knew better than the Emperor. I personally believe he wanted to validate his beliefs to the Emperor, showing the good they can do, but that kind of backfired when he accidently ruined the Webway. But honestly, before the Council of Nikaea, the Thousand Sons were hardly dangerous sorcerers, the few using Tutelaries being largely in control of them (This being their only shown use of sorcery as well), until Tzeentch decided their powers were waaaaay too stable for his tastes.

The Emperor just sticking with his Sensei children instead of making other behemoths capable of killing him.

Some sort of civil war was bound to happen. It may or may not have already happened with the two "unmentionable" Legions depending on how you want to interpret all those little hints. The Night Lords seemed bound for some sort of break with the Imperium, for example. The World Eaters and Angrons practices would have lead them to Chaos (or a break with the Imperium) as well. I suspect Perturabo and the Iron Warriors would have done so as well. And given how McNeill structured the Thousand Sons, they were doomed to be pawns of Chaos in the future and probably would have had to flee the Imperium or be hunted down (if Magnus hadn't done what he'd done to breach Terra's wards, he probably would have done something else.)
And the Word Bearers want gods to worship, and there is no way to dissuade them.

However, without Horus, any civil war would not have been even remotely as effective - Horus was a focal point - the only person in the Imperium as charasmatic and popular as the Emperor - the only one who could have truly divided it the way it was. Had he stayed loyal, its likely that many of the 'traitor' chapters would have also. The Alpha Legion may or may not have (depends on how you feel about the Cabal and all that.) I am pretty sure the Emperor's Children would have (mostly) stayed loyal, Fulgrim got possessed by a daemon after all. And as dour as Mortrarion was (and however much he may have hated the Emperor) he never actually seemed like he was prone to betraying the Imperium - he only "turned" when Nurgle pulled his little trick.

But even if the Emperor's Children and Death Guard turned, and even the Alpha Legion, Horus' Legion would still be with the loyalists, and more importantly so would Horus. Noone could have unified the Traitors, or encouraged so many planets to defect to the side of Chaos. What's more, Isstvaan woudl not have happened, which means in turn that even the "Traitor" Legions would likely have had their loyalists remain loyal and they wouldn't be wiped out. Nor would the Drop Site Massacre happen.

Connor MacLeod wrote:And as dour as Mortrarion was (and however much he may have hated the Emperor) he never actually seemed like he was prone to betraying the Imperium - he only "turned" when Nurgle pulled his little trick.

Nurgle did that when the Death Guard were terrabound, at Istvaan they weren't touched by them yet still participated. We haven't really seen much of Mortarions reasoning for siding with Horus yet, shall be interesting to see his motivations. It may simply have been akin to Horus and Lorgar, the company he kept influencing him as it's mentioned Erebus had already showed Typhon the way to Chaos through the Lodges and Mortarion supported the idea of the Lodges, possibly bitterness as suggested in the scene where Mortarion and Garro are on their way to the Warmasters ship before Istvaan 3.

NOTHING

This is The Emperor's whole plan


he is the ultimate troll, he is just messing around with everything. He is a Chaos God, he became one when "MANY" phychers killed themselves and then billions of souls worshiped him. He is getting off that throne soon, and he is gonna LOL, HARD.

Void__Dragon wrote:
So... Their fears that they would be rendered obsolete were justified then? Welp, that's not speaking very well in the Emperor's defense, if he really did consider the Primarchs tools to be discarded when no longer useful.

Indeed, so him not telling the Primarchs was best choice for him at the time. It's only a theory so maybe he did have intentions for the Primarchs and was going to keep using them, well, we know that Magnus was going to be used as massive battery but you know what I mean.

Void__Dragon wrote:Where? Are you referring to his short breakdown when gak with the Interex goes south? Just read it and the Lion was not mentioned once.

I didn't get a chance as I was browsing through Tales of Heresy, this will be my next stop though. I know it's there somewhere as I made a list of things that aren't consistent or made me think about another instance of other things in other books. Lokens hair, the Anathame, Lupercal, stuff like that.

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah man, how unreasonable of Angron, not abandoning those he considers family to die.

Come on, I'm not saying that at all, just trying to put a bit of perspective into possibly what happened

Ok, so here's what happens. The battle appears to be going on as the Emperor arrives. The Emperor and his bodyguards fight towards Angron killing some High Riders. Emperor tries to talk to Angron who isn't being very talkative. Angron kills a Custodes. The Emperor Teleports back to his ship and Angron to the War Hounds vessel. So we wer're both right in a way, but only half. The Emperor did abduct Angron and it was after he killed a Custodes.

Maybe the battle was nearly over, maybe it was the Emperors only choice to save Angron? If the Emperor had arrived sooner perhaps he could and would have assisted Angron in his battle but it was already to late. For the Emperor to arrive in the middle of a battle and slay some High Riders just to get to Angron says something of the urgency. Whether that's it we won't know unless they go further into Angron, which I hope they do.

Void__Dragon wrote:But honestly, before the Council of Nikaea, the Thousand Sons were hardly dangerous sorcerers, the few using Tutelaries being largely in control of them (This being their only shown use of sorcery as well), until Tzeentch decided their powers were waaaaay too stable for his tastes.

Or at least until Tzeentch decided it was time to cash in his cheque with Magnus.

Durza wrote:

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.
.

It was also an Emperor's Children that betrayed the loyalists at that palace. Tarvitz was hardly a typical Emperor's Children.
Example's of Fulgrim's actions are somewhat hard to find, consider that he only appear briefly outside of his own book. And in his own book he is under the influence of the daemon sword most of the time.

Exactly. They made all the big moves. Definite Warmaster material.

What did he actually do that shows he would make a great Warmaster?

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Even if Fulgrim himself isnt flaunting, that's generally how people felt about his legion, and legions are the personification of their primarchs.

Three instances is how people generally felt about his legion? How about Saul Tarvitz, who was seen as honourable and respected by members of other legions, enough so that Garro fled to give warning to the Emperor on Tarvitz's word alone. And since Marines are the personification of their primarch, let's not forget that the Emperor's Children took command of the loyalists on Isstvan.
.

It was also an Emperor's Children that betrayed the loyalists at that palace. Tarvitz was hardly a typical Emperor's Children.
Example's of Fulgrim's actions are somewhat hard to find, consider that he only appear briefly outside of his own book. And in his own book he is under the influence of the daemon sword most of the time.

Exactly. They made all the big moves. Definite Warmaster material.

What did he actually do that shows he would make a great Warmaster?

He prosecuted the Laer campaign, taking it in less than a month when Imperial tacticians said it would take years even if they had more support. Dealing with the Eldar peacefully rather than violently. Those are the only two though.

Jackster wrote:
What did he actually do that shows he would make a great Warmaster?

Cause agro amongst his brothers, he was better than Horus at that

Connor MacLeod wrote:Some sort of civil war was bound to happen. It may or may not have already happened with the two "unmentionable" Legions depending on how you want to interpret all those little hints. The Night Lords seemed bound for some sort of break with the Imperium, for example.

The Night Lords had "broken" with the Imperium well before the Heresy. The Night Haunter almost beat Dorn to death, was scheduled to be taken to Terra for trial (and probable sanction of his whole Legion), so he killed all the Custodes and other Astartes guarding him and took off for the far reaches of space.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
He prosecuted the Laer campaign, taking it in less than a month when Imperial tacticians said it would take years even if they had more support. Dealing with the Eldar peacefully rather than violently. Those are the only two though.

Until they said something he didn't like, and he started murdering them wholesale.

iproxtaco wrote:He prosecuted the Laer campaign, taking it in less than a month when Imperial tacticians said it would take years even if they had more support. Dealing with the Eldar peacefully rather than violently. Those are the only two though.

The Laer campaign is there to show the bad aspects of Fulgrim's personality and his obsession with perfection.

1. The final battle is over complicated, and relies on everyone hitting their targets at exactly the right time. This doesn't happen and the battle goes pear shaped for a little while.
2. The entire timeline of the campaign is over ambitious, and it is specifically mentioned in the book that the agressive timeline leads to excessive casualities among legion forces.

I mean, nice job on Fulgrim for pulling it off, but it's really to show how his persuit of perfection can lead to situations that are anything but perfect. Also too, that meshes nicely with the theme from A Thousand Sons, where Magnus' persuit of knowledge and control over the warp leads to him being unknowingly being used as a tool by the warp.

daveNYC wrote:As long as the Word Bearers were out there mucking around, the Heresy would have happened in some form. Remember that not only were they the first Legion to turn to Chaos, they were the first to turn by decades. And it's not just that they turned from the Emperor to Chaos, they had actively been looking for someone other than the Emperor to follow for decades before that. They wanted to believe, follow and worship something greater than themselves so badly that if Chaos hadn't existed, they'd have just ended up on the side of the Tyranids or C'Tan/Necrons. Those are kind of crappy substitutions for the Dark Gods, but they are impressive enough that those spamheads would probably have fallen for them.

*insert joke about religion here*

OMAHBAD was it wrong of me to compare raving lunatics to contemporary believers in certain religions? trololol

daveNYC wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:He prosecuted the Laer campaign, taking it in less than a month when Imperial tacticians said it would take years even if they had more support. Dealing with the Eldar peacefully rather than violently. Those are the only two though.

The Laer campaign is there to show the bad aspects of Fulgrim's personality and his obsession with perfection.

1. The final battle is over complicated, and relies on everyone hitting their targets at exactly the right time. This doesn't happen and the battle goes pear shaped for a little while.
2. The entire timeline of the campaign is over ambitious, and it is specifically mentioned in the book that the agressive timeline leads to excessive casualities among legion forces.

I mean, nice job on Fulgrim for pulling it off, but it's really to show how his persuit of perfection can lead to situations that are anything but perfect. Also too, that meshes nicely with the theme from A Thousand Sons, where Magnus' persuit of knowledge and control over the warp leads to him being unknowingly being used as a tool by the warp.

Agreed, although when asked, those are the only two that I could think of, and Fulgrim has an entire book dedicated to him and his Legion that could have showed other events. He was far from an ideal candidate, what you've described is his greatest weakness, that led to arrogance without any sort of modesty. The pinnacle of what the Emperor's Children sought to achieve was in Saul Tarvitz, and it wasn't just because he was loyal to the end.

In legion it talks about the fall of the alpha legion,and what the farseers saw in the future. Without the aid of alpha legion there would have been no drop site massacre (which if I undrstand right was devised by alpharius) with out that the traitor legions would have never had the edge and the destruction of horizon would have happened there not after he fought the emporer. I pin the entire heresy though on the eldar... If not for them there would be no salaanesh and thus only three chaos gods and those three wouldn't have swayed the emporers children then numbers would go back to the loyalists.

gh05tdemon wrote:Without the aid of alpha legion there would have been no drop site massacre (which if I undrstand right was devised by alpharius)

It is suggested in the Index Astartes article on the Alpha Legion if I recall correctly. It was not necessarily his idea, and even if it was, it does not necessarily follow that someone else would not have come up with a similar plan (it wasn't exactly complicated, afterall).

On the subject of Cruze though, if he and his legion were to get to terra to have their wrists slapped then why were they allowed to partake in Istvaan?

Also wasn't the whole root of his problem seeing that the Imperium wouldn't last because of the heresy in his visions?

Vermillion wrote:On the subject of Cruze though, if he and his legion were to get to terra to have their wrists slapped then why were they allowed to partake in Istvaan?

Also wasn't the whole root of his problem seeing that the Imperium wouldn't last because of the heresy in his visions?

Apparently reasons were given for the Night Lords presence at Istvaan in The Outcast Dead, a new Horus Heresy book if you weren't aware.

iproxtaco wrote:

Vermillion wrote:On the subject of Cruze though, if he and his legion were to get to terra to have their wrists slapped then why were they allowed to partake in Istvaan?

Also wasn't the whole root of his problem seeing that the Imperium wouldn't last because of the heresy in his visions?

Apparently reasons were given for the Night Lords presence at Istvaan in The Outcast Dead, a new Horus Heresy book if you weren't aware.

Aye waiting till 11 November for Play.com to be getting them. At half the price I'm not going to complain . Wasn't aware the reasons were in there, been trying to avoid anything about the book till I get it, but this makes me more curious.