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If the Emperer hand't been a prat and sent Leman Russ to wipe out the Thousand Sons perhaps both of those legions would have been available for the fight at terra and the loses would have been far less severe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OR MAYBE IF THE EMPERER HAD LISTENED TO MAGNUS! Magnus busts through reality and F's some stuff up, maybe he had a really good reason to go so far as he did. The emperer should have atleast asked why he did it, then things might have been different if the Emperer had known about the heresy.

ZombieJoe wrote:If the Emperer hand't been a prat and sent Leman Russ to wipe out the Thousand Sons perhaps both of those legions would have been available for the fight at terra and the loses would have been far less severe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OR MAYBE IF THE EMPERER HAD LISTENED TO MAGNUS! Magnus busts through reality and F's some stuff up, maybe he had a really good reason to go so far as he did. The emperer should have atleast asked why he did it, then things might have been different if the Emperer had known about the heresy.

If Magnus had listened to the emporer than his legion wouldnt have been caught up in this mess. The Emporer had told him not to use psychic powers, because hed be playing right into the hands of the chaos gods. And, lo and behold, geuss what happened?

He told him not to use Sorcery, but yes, you're right.

ZombieJoe wrote:If the Emperer hand't been a prat and sent Leman Russ to wipe out the Thousand Sons perhaps both of those legions would have been available for the fight at terra and the loses would have been far less severe.

Unless it's been retconned, he didn't. He ordered Russ to go retrieve Magnus and bring him back to Terra. Horus manipulated Russ into being more aggressive.

OR MAYBE IF THE EMPERER HAD LISTENED TO MAGNUS! Magnus busts through reality and F's some stuff up, maybe he had a really good reason to go so far as he did. The emperer should have atleast asked why he did it, then things might have been different if the Emperer had known about the heresy.

I'm pretty sure Magnus' message did get through. However, the Emperor wasn't exactly going to believe one of his sons who had disobeyed him over his favoured son who hadn't shown any signs of treachery (yet. Maybe. Apparently 'The Outcast Dead' muddies the waters. We'll have to wait and see.)

Pilau Rice wrote:The Primarchs were created out of necessity, they were created to wage war across the stars. Like the Thunder Warriors were created to wage war across Terra. If the webway was completed before the Primarch Project then the Emperor would not have required the Primarchs. Read the Outcast Dead for an insight into this.

Uh, unless Lexicanum is wrong, The Outcast Dead isn't actually out. How would I get around to reading this?

Why would he not of required the Primarchs? And all this is really saying to me is that the Primarch's fears that they would be rendered obsolete in the new Imperium, and their disapproval towards the High Council of Terra was entirely justified.

And on Lion, there's two conflicting accounts on him one that can and one that can't read people, Horus comments on it in I think Horus Rising.

When in Horus Rising is the Lion's status as a douchey douchebag who is also a douche contradicted?

That's my thoughts exactly, why didn't he help Angron like he did Corax on Deliverance? I think he let his humanity get in the way. Angron made him Angry

I should probably point out Angron only killed two of the Emperor's Custodians (With his bare hands, like a badass) after being teleported from De'Shea, due to being angry that his homies were getting slaughtered without him. Which is entirely justified. Personally, I view it like this: Angron defied the Emperor, so the Emperor made him suffer. He does that kind of thing on occasion, like with Lorgar.

No the Thousand Sons and Magnus did not stop using Sorcery, at all.

Sorcery=/=Psychic abilities.

And really, you're holding killing Psychneuein larva before it could be born against the Sons? Really? Training Lemuel wasn't sorcery, nor was trying to make sense of Magnus' prophecy.

Also, no, Ahriman notes specifically they were uneasy because of how the ritualistic nature of what they were doing in transporting Magnus reminded them of the Witches and Wyrds they have encountered before, not just the power required.

Sometimes you cant tell your kids about all the bad things that are out there in the world (universe) because they aren't ready for them yet. You cant crush their hopes and dreams by telling them that there are things out there that will destroy them, defile them and crush everything they love and care about. You cant create the devil and give him to children.

Sometimes you just have to handle the problem yourself, the Emperor - being a parent - apparently believed that his children - the primarchs - were not ready for the things that go bump in the night and that he could solve them. But then you have to ask yourself, "Is the Emperor a stupid jerk?" He is suppose to be the Master of Mankind, but what if some injected theme of this story is, "Your parents might seem invincible and all knowing, but they aren't."

Or if he knows what is going to happen and doesn't care then he has to have some alternate motive. I'm confused now.

Or GW is just trying to make an interesting story, wrapped in betrayal, revenge and mystery.

Being a good father, and then telling them about the dangers of the warp and to be ready if they try and corrupt them.

The Emperor was a fool to allow Horus to run the Crusade.
I'm sure another Primarch could have overseen the protection of Terra.
Being secretive about the warp was foolish too.

I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

I love Sanguinus, he was a great primarch compared to some of the others. If anything its better him than Fulgrim or Rowboat girllyman.

Jollydevil wrote:I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

He did, don't worry.

Horus killed him so hard the Blood Angels are still feeling it.

Durza wrote:Actually, why is it that none of the primarchs ever were married or anything? Russ seems like he would've liked to try out all the virtues of humanity, not just the booze.

While Russ probably wasn't married, it's safe to say he probably partook of the pleasures of the flesh.

From the Saga of the Wolf-King:

"No man nor beast could best the Wolf-King,
No tribe could stand against his armies,
Within Russ' Kingdom a truce
existed between man and wolf,
His court was attended by the fiercest of
Warlords and the most beautiful of maidens".

This was before the Emperor came to collect him but one could see that Russ probably did what his fellow fenrisians did.

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

He is one of the better Primarchs, with probably the least amount of psychological issues.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
None of them were kidnapped and effectively made to stand idly by while their comrades were being slaughtered.

Angron attacked the Emperor after the Emperor kidnapped him via teleportation (an entirely justifiable response). Didn't the Emperor ask him to leave his comrades while actually on the planet, and then when Angron refused returned to His ship and teleported Angron up?

I'll have a reread, as I guess it depends on the situation. I remember it as the Emperor went down to Angron, had his little chat, Angron got mad killed some Custodes, the Emperor got annoyed and went back to his ship and Teleported Angron to the War Hounds ship, leaving them to deal with him, such a nice guy.

If I have how it went down right then what I mean is maybe if Angron had been a bit more civil, had a nice cup of tea and a biscuit rather than a fistfight, things might have been different. The Emperor might have helped him, but Angron isn't the kind of guy to ask for help really is he? Corax spoke to the Emperor for a day and a night and the Emperor only agreed to help Corax fight the Tech - Guilds as Corax made it one of the terms before accepting command of the Raven Guard.

But if I'm wrong, and I often am, then he handled it even worse than I thought.

He handled Angron badly for sure, I'm not denying that at all, I'm just trying to give a justification, if a bad one, as to why the Emperor did what he did.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Uh, unless Lexicanum is wrong, The Outcast Dead isn't actually out. How would I get around to reading this?

Why would he not of required the Primarchs? And all this is really saying to me is that the Primarch's fears that they would be rendered obsolete in the new Imperium, and their disapproval towards the High Council of Terra was entirely justified.

It's out on the Black Library site and our local GW had it's Birthday, I picked up Deliverance Lost as well

They are his generals to wage war across the stars, with the Webway complete he wouldn't need to rely on them so much, if at all. The Emperor would be able to send his troops through the gateway himself. He managed with the Primarchs well enough in the early days of the Great Crusade. That's what I think anyhoo. And that's kinda what I am saying if the Emperor had said to the Primarchs that they weren't going to be waging war anymore, that they would be playing scrabble and baking cakes, then they would be a bit miffed and yeah, justified. The Emperor creates tools that he can throw away when he doesn't need them anymore. His main concern is for humankind.

Void__Dragon wrote:When in Horus Rising is the Lion's status as a douchey douchebag who is also a douche contradicted?

When Horus is having a breakdown he says that being the Warmaster is too much and that he can't read men like the Lion or something like that. I'll find the page and update later.

Void__Dragon wrote:I should probably point out Angron only killed two of the Emperor's Custodians (With his bare hands, like a badass) after being teleported from De'Shea, due to being angry that his homies were getting slaughtered without him. Which is entirely justified. Personally, I view it like this: Angron defied the Emperor, so the Emperor made him suffer. He does that kind of thing on occasion, like with Lorgar.

I'll have a refresh later, but what you've said is along the same lines as what I have said. The Emperor got angry at Angron.

Void__Dragon wrote:Sorcery=/=Psychic abilities.

And really, you're holding killing Psychneuein larva before it could be born against the Sons? Really? Training Lemuel wasn't sorcery, nor was trying to make sense of Magnus' prophecy.

Not at all. I'm just reiterating the point that they didn't stop using their powers. Sorcery probably was the wrong term in reference to the use of their powers, but the two major incantations performed by Magnus with aid of his Sons were major use of Sorcery. He had good intentions, fair enough, but he still chose to ignore all that the Emperor said, after the first one where he contacted Horus, perhaps he should have thought to use an Astropath? I know he dismisses it as unreliable but the outcome would have been better for him and Terra. With Amon and Ankhu Anen, we don't know what they did to try and discern what Magnus was doing, maybe they had the assistance of their Tutelaries.

Void__Dragon wrote:Also, no, Ahriman notes specifically they were uneasy because of how the ritualistic nature of what they were doing in transporting Magnus reminded them of the Witches and Wyrds they have encountered before, not just the power required.

Fair enough, only partial merit for me

Edits: Many

The Emprah! was a huge hypocrite...

Just sayin'

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

I love Sanguinus, he was a great primarch compared to some of the others. If anything its better him than Fulgrim or Rowboat girllyman.

How so? Sanguinius hesitated when confronting Horus. Guilliman wouldn't have. The only thing that stopped Fulgrim was the fact that he was in the process of being manipulated by a daemon. Sanguinius was a great battlefield commander and an excellent fighter, but Horus, Guilliman, Dorn and Fulgrim would have made better Warmasters. Hell, Pertuabo probably would've been better.

Pilau Rice wrote:Sorcery and the use of psychic powers with the Thousand Sons is one and the same.

And that's where you're completely wrong. Sorcery by definition in 40K is making pacts with daemonic entities to fuel your powers. The only Thousand Sons that came close to meeting that definition were a small handful that had familiars.

They were told not to use any power, but they still continued to do so.

So did everybody else.

Where in A Thousand Sons does it say that Magnus ordered his troops to cease the use of their powers?

This point I may have to concede. My first exposure to A Thousand Sons was via audiobook format during a road-trip, and I could have sworn I remembered an exchange between Ahriman and Magnus regarding the judgement, but after flipping through the book I can't find the appropriate quote. The closest thing I can find is that Magnus had all of his warriors buried in libraries doing research since the moment they got back from Nikaea.

Omegus wrote:
And that's where you're completely wrong. Sorcery by definition in 40K is making pacts with daemonic entities to fuel your powers. The only Thousand Sons that came close to meeting that definition were a small handful that had familiars.

Fair enough and I admit my failing here. Sorcery was wrong but I was right about Psychic powers. It also doesn't change the fact that two massive events of Sorcery were carried out.

Maybe Ahriman and the others used their Tutelaries as a matter of course.

Omegus wrote:
So did everybody else.

But were any so brazen as the Sons, apart from the Wolves? It doesn't make the others ignoring the edict right either. The Ultramarines stuck to Nikaea, it's in, is it Oath of Moment, where the guy who joins Garro uses his power? I can imagine that Corax and Mortarion would have stuck to it, more out of the lack of psykers than anything though.

Omegus wrote:The closest thing I can find is that Magnus had all of his warriors buried in libraries doing research since the moment they got back from Nikaea.

I found that also, it's roughly around where Kallimakus is talking to Lemuel and advises him that being taught by Ahriman is against the ruling at Nikaea.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Sorcery and the use of psychic powers with the Thousand Sons is one and the same.

And that's where you're completely wrong. Sorcery by definition in 40K is making pacts with daemonic entities to fuel your powers. The only Thousand Sons that came close to meeting that definition were a small handful that had familiars.

Fair enough and I admit my failing here. Sorcery was wrong but I was right about Psychic powers. It also doesn't change the fact that two massive events of Sorcery were carried out.

Which they thought were the lesser of two evils at the time, knowing they would likely be damned for it.

They were told not to use any power, but they still continued to do so.

So did everybody else.

But were any so brazen as the Sons, apart from the Wolves? It doesn't make the others ignoring the edict right either. The Ultramarines stuck to Nikaea, it's in, is it Oath of Moment, where the guy who joins Garro uses his power? I can imagine that Corax and Mortarion would have stuck to it, more out of the lack of psykers than anything though.

Surely it's worse that one of the chapters that campaigned most vigourously against psychic powers continued to use them? The other legions never had noteworthy psykers to start with, so it wouldn't be as obvious whether they continued or not. Though Zahariel of the Dark Angels continued to use his powers.

Pilau Rice wrote:But were any so brazen as the Sons, apart from the Wolves? It doesn't make the others ignoring the edict right either. The Ultramarines stuck to Nikaea, it's in, is it Oath of Moment, where the guy who joins Garro uses his power? I can imagine that Corax and Mortarion would have stuck to it, more out of the lack of psykers than anything though.

Mortarion definitely, since he was one of the "prosecutors" at Nikaea in the first place. Ultramarines, not so sure. coughcodexastartescough

Durza wrote:
Which they thought were the lesser of two evils at the time, knowing they would likely be damned for it.

Ok, that's a given, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. But wouldn't they rather not be damned and have to fight the Space Wolfs and be regarded as traitors. Ahriman expressed his concerns at what they were doing, but Magnus 'knew' it was right to do it. Was it though?

Durza wrote:Surely it's worse that one of the chapters that campaigned most vigourously against psychic powers continued to use them? The other legions never had noteworthy psykers to start with, so it wouldn't be as obvious whether they continued or not. Though Zahariel of the Dark Angels continued to use his powers.

Yeah, it's hypocritical. But the Space Wolves were dense. It's nothing to do with the Warp it all comes from Fenris. But you aren't on Fenris ... LA LA LA LA I AM NOT LISTENING.

He was the Psyker stuck on Caliban wasn't he, so was he aware of Nikaea? The Lion hadn't been in contact with the Marines stuck behind for some time if I recall.

Omegus wrote:
Mortarion definitely, since he was one of the "prosecutors" at Nikaea in the first place. Ultramarines, not so sure. coughcodexastartescough

Fulgrim and Sanguinius were supposed to be on Magnus side, but who's side were they on, the one of not Magnus

Pilau Rice wrote:

Durza wrote:Surely it's worse that one of the chapters that campaigned most vigourously against psychic powers continued to use them? The other legions never had noteworthy psykers to start with, so it wouldn't be as obvious whether they continued or not. Though Zahariel of the Dark Angels continued to use his powers.

Yeah, it's hypocritical. But the Space Wolves were dense. It's nothing to do with the Warp it all comes from Fenris. But you aren't on Fenris ... LA LA LA LA I AM NOT LISTENING.

He was the Psyker stuck on Caliban wasn't he, so was he aware of Nikaea? The Lion hadn't been in contact with the Marines stuck behind for some time if I recall.

They're still powers though, and Russ would've had to have known it was a violation of the Emperor's edict.

I'm not sure about Zahariel knowing about Nikea, but it seems likely he would.

Omegus wrote:
Mortarion definitely, since he was one of the "prosecutors" at Nikaea in the first place. Ultramarines, not so sure. coughcodexastartescough

Fulgrim and Sanguinius were supposed to be on Magnus side, but who's side were they on, the one of not Magnus

A good commander only fights when he can win. It was pretty obvious the Magnus was going to loose.

Durza wrote:
They're still powers though, and Russ would've had to have known it was a violation of the Emperor's edict.

He wasn't a feral barbarian all the time, so I reckon he did, he just pleaded ignorance. Even when Magnus pointed it out to him. Wyrds, wards and totems, not just for decoration.

Durza wrote:A good commander only fights when he can win. It was pretty obvious the Magnus was going to loose.

Nothing like stabbing your brother in the back is there, a lot of it goes on amongst the Primarchs

Would they have lost though if the majority had said actually we think it is a good idea, with guidelines

Durza wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

I love Sanguinus, he was a great primarch compared to some of the others. If anything its better him than Fulgrim or Rowboat girllyman.

How so? Sanguinius hesitated when confronting Horus. Guilliman wouldn't have. The only thing that stopped Fulgrim was the fact that he was in the process of being manipulated by a daemon. Sanguinius was a great battlefield commander and an excellent fighter, but Horus, Guilliman, Dorn and Fulgrim would have made better Warmasters. Hell, Pertuabo probably would've been better.

How does hesitating before confronting Horus makes him a poor warmaster? Heck the Emperor himself hesitated when he was confronting Horus. Does that make him a poor Emperor?
Gulliman and Fulgrim would have flaunted their alleged superiority over the others and many Primarchs wouldn't accept their authority because of that.
Dorn doesnt have much talent in negotiating with others, which is basically half of the duty of the Warmaster.
Pertuabo, oh god thats not even go there.

As Horus himself admitted, Sanguinius would have been better, since he is respected by most other primarchs.

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

I love Sanguinus, he was a great primarch compared to some of the others. If anything its better him than Fulgrim or Rowboat girllyman.

How so? Sanguinius hesitated when confronting Horus. Guilliman wouldn't have. The only thing that stopped Fulgrim was the fact that he was in the process of being manipulated by a daemon. Sanguinius was a great battlefield commander and an excellent fighter, but Horus, Guilliman, Dorn and Fulgrim would have made better Warmasters. Hell, Pertuabo probably would've been better.

How does hesitating before confronting Horus makes him a poor warmaster? Heck the Emperor himself hesitated when he was confronting Horus. Does that make him a poor Emperor?
Gulliman and Fulgrim would have flaunted their alleged superiority over the others and many Primarchs wouldn't accept their authority because of that.
Dorn doesnt have much talent in negotiating with others, which is basically half of the duty of the Warmaster.
Pertuabo, oh god thats not even go there.

As Horus himself admitted, Sanguinius would have been better, since he is respected by most other primarchs.

Horus, who at the time was poisoned and hallucinating.

Who did Fulgrim flaunt his superiority to?

Pertuabo wouldn't have needed to negotiate, because the enemy would know he could rip their defences apart. And he could just recognise that he comes off as heartless and get someone else to play diplomat for him. It's not as if Space Marine diplomacy is all that hard. "Surrender and join the Imperium in good will, or we'll kill you all and re populate your planet with people who will."

I think you should take a look at WWII and Allied command on the Western Front in Europe. Eisenhower was not the best battlefield general available, but he absolutely was the best choice for SCAEF. That's because the job of Supreme Commander (or Warmaster) is more about coordinating actions and cooperation between a whole bunch of Titan sized egos than it is about actually commanding troops in battle.

Durza wrote:

Jackster wrote:

Durza wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:I dont see how letting Horus, apart from any other primarch, run the crusade was foolish.

Sangunius would of done better.

I hope sanguinus died a Very painful death.
Damn blood angels fans.

I love Sanguinus, he was a great primarch compared to some of the others. If anything its better him than Fulgrim or Rowboat girllyman.

How so? Sanguinius hesitated when confronting Horus. Guilliman wouldn't have. The only thing that stopped Fulgrim was the fact that he was in the process of being manipulated by a daemon. Sanguinius was a great battlefield commander and an excellent fighter, but Horus, Guilliman, Dorn and Fulgrim would have made better Warmasters. Hell, Pertuabo probably would've been better.

How does hesitating before confronting Horus makes him a poor warmaster? Heck the Emperor himself hesitated when he was confronting Horus. Does that make him a poor Emperor?
Gulliman and Fulgrim would have flaunted their alleged superiority over the others and many Primarchs wouldn't accept their authority because of that.
Dorn doesnt have much talent in negotiating with others, which is basically half of the duty of the Warmaster.
Pertuabo, oh god thats not even go there.

As Horus himself admitted, Sanguinius would have been better, since he is respected by most other primarchs.

Horus, who at the time was poisoned and hallucinating.

Who did Fulgrim flaunt his superiority to?

Pertuabo wouldn't have needed to negotiate, because the enemy would know he could rip their defences apart. And he could just recognise that he comes off as heartless and get someone else to play diplomat for him. It's not as if Space Marine diplomacy is all that hard. "Surrender and join the Imperium in good will, or we'll kill you all and re populate your planet with people who will."

Other legions certainly thinks he and his legions flaunts their superiority everytime they can.
Fulgrim was also a poor judge of character, putting someone like Eidolon in charge?
And Heresy would have probably happened if Fulgrim is the warmaster, he would have been possessed by that daemon sword anyway.

And being warmaster, diplomacy is not just with your enemies, but also with other legions and the administrations of Terra, which Pertuabo would fail at.

Again, which legions and when. And Fulgrim isn't the only one who promoted someone with the potential to fall. Eidolon was good at what he did. There was no reason for him not to be in charge, since the Emperor was smart enough to know that telling his sons about the biggest threat they would ever face was a bad idea.