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To be fair, the guy was trying. He could keep constant watch on his sons while they played around in the wide world of the galaxy. I mean, twenty sons, sheesh, that's some serious parenting. Not to mention they're all demigods with bad attitudes. He may have wanted to sacrifice some speed for keeping them ALL on terra together for a short time. Family time. Loooovey time.

Pilau Rice wrote:Is Horus 5, does he need his hand held? He could have manned up to the task and took his fathers words for what they were, that he wasn't ready to reveal his plans yet. Wasn't being made Warmaster reward enough to make him feel appreciated? I agree with you on the mortals part, it must have been rather disheartening to say the least. You're out there building this Empire only to be bossed about by some pencil pusher

Why couldn't this of happened?

"Well son I'm going to leave the Crusade in your hands now. I've gotta go back to Terra so I can work on making the Webway Gate, which will make space travel safer, faster, and more efficient."

"Oh, okay dad, thanks for telling me. I'll see you later."

For the life of me I can't figure out how the Emperor thought ordering people around without ever telling anyone what his plans were was a good idea. Horus felt like the Emperor was not merely abandoning him, but all they worked for.

At the very least, the Emperor should of told Magnus, IMO.

He should have told all the Primarchs at the very least. Chaos used their ignorance of the truth to make them think the Emperor was trying to ascend to Godhood. It wasn't just Horus who felt that, it was all the eventual traitors. Saying that he needs to work on a project to hack into the webway, it'll make travel much faster and safer would have been enough. Also saying he wouldn't have time to govern the Imperium by himself and is handing over responsibility to some officials, whilst actually saying thanks to each Primarch individually would have probably stopped the Heresy, and all that wouldn't have taken any effort at all.

Void__Dragon wrote:For the life of me I can't figure out how the Emperor thought ordering people around without ever telling anyone what his plans were was a good idea.

Yeah, who does he think he is, anyway? The Emper...? Oh...

He should have been able to see it coming. Seriously, fulgrim wanting perfection and to kill anything nonhuman, as well as induldging in limitless pleasure, angron raging all over the place, hell, magnus even tried to warn him, but he didnt listen, and subsequently lost another legion.
Even some simple communication would have sufficed. Had he listened to magnus or worked out the problems with all of the rebellious legions, things wouldve been much better off.

The Emperor not nuking the crap out of Lorgar's planet.

Ooh, I have a list of stuff that would've helped.

1. Saving Angron and all of his gladiator buddies, even if it meant getting his hands dirty.

2. Giving Perturabo credit and encouraging him to stand up for himself, as opposed to letting the other Primarchs pressure him into unthanked garrison duty.

3. Spend some quality time with Alpharius and Omegon. Did he forget they even existed or something?

4. Help Horus more and try not to put so much pressure on him.

5. Teach the Primarchs about the Warp. He's like the crazy religious parent who refuses to talk about sex to his kids and then one of them gets someone pregnant. Yeah, way to go.

6. Show Konrad that there are other ways to ensure loyalty and he doesn't have to be so mean and mysterious.

7. Make Russ play nicely with his brothers and explain that everyone's Legion uses "sorcery," even his.

8. In addition to spending more time with AlphariusOmegon, he should've also spent more time with Mortarion.

9. Help Magnus understand the Warp and also restructure his Legion so that it wasn't so dependent on "sorcery."

10. Explain to Fulgrim that being perfect isn't everything. Also that drugs are bad.

11. Don't be so mean to Lorgar when he wants to worship him. Politely explain that he isn't a god and maybe Lorgar should spend more time on the Crusade and less time worshiping him.

Essentially, the Emperor should've been a better parent and spent more time with his kids. Instead of treating them like people, he just wanted them to support him when he got older. As a result they ed him up and left him in a life support machine in a dingy hospital.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Kill Erebus and Kor Phareon, and probably kill Lorgar. Probably should purge the entire word bearers legion.

The destruction of an entire Legion would be difficult, and would raise more than a few red flags. It isn't easy to convince zealots of their mistakes, but it would be easier than exterminating them.

On another note, not playing favorites is a good way to keep arguments (and homicide ) away. C'mon Empy, Perturabo can't be that bad!

To the above poster, he did it before. Twice.

The Emperor's time is super precious how many people you think he's got demanding his time? Besides, he couldn't see their immediate futures or his own future. Chaos is a $#@%@$

He expected the Primarches to live up to his expectations, he didn't count on them being so human.

But still...Not saving Angron's bros...Not cool.

Personally, even though it would pain the Emperor to do so, he should have let Angorn have his wish to die fighting beside his "bros" instead of saving him at the last minute.

He should have done the old: Teleport in with Custodes and members of Angron's legion to be, save and beat rear ends, show off martial prowess, impress Angron, earn love & loyalty of Angron

Void__Dragon wrote:

Why couldn't this of happened?

"Well son I'm going to leave the Crusade in your hands now. I've gotta go back to Terra so I can work on making the Webway Gate, which will make space travel safer, faster, and more efficient."

"Oh, okay dad, thanks for telling me. I'll see you later."

For the life of me I can't figure out how the Emperor thought ordering people around without ever telling anyone what his plans were was a good idea. Horus felt like the Emperor was not merely abandoning him, but all they worked for.

At the very least, the Emperor should of told Magnus, IMO.

It would have been a good idea, but was it really necessary, should it have been necessary? If Horus loved his father as much as it is implied then couldn't he have just accepted that he wasn't ready to start revealing his plans. Looking back yeah, it was something that the Emperor should have told Horus, because Horus was weak.

I'm playing a bit of Devils Advocate here as I think that it would have been right for the Emperor to sit his Sons down and say look boys, I have to go and work on something very important it will do x, y and z etc etc. Rather than right I'm orf back to Terra, Horus you're in charge GOOD BAI!

In a way the Emperor did tell Magnus

insaniak wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:For the life of me I can't figure out how the Emperor thought ordering people around without ever telling anyone what his plans were was a good idea.

Yeah, who does he think he is, anyway? The Emper...? Oh...

Quite right.

Prevent the release of "Adeptus Titanicus"

The Hersey wouldn't had happened if Horus had not succumbed on Davin to the twisted view of the future chaos showed him.

If only the Interex's security was a bit better?

daveNYC wrote:Remembering to send Horus a card on his birthday.

When I first saw this thread i thought, "Man this is a great discussion, I really need to pick up the horus heresy series instead of just cruising lexicanum for factoids"

Then I saw this post and started giggling as I thought of the Eye of Terror cover with Horus wearing a party hat with a little tear in his eye.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

=I= White-Wolf wrote:It never could have...tis all in the emperor's grand plan, you don't think that one of the most powerful warp presences other than the big 4 wouldn't notice one of his sons talking to possibly the most deadly of the chaos gods? We will never know what was said when the emperor boarded Horus' barge, but hey, the emperor can see the future and has been alive for some 48 000 years, and only decided to make his presence known in the 30th millennium I believe it would be impossible, it would of happened one way or another...

He's the Emperor, not father christmas.

The chaos gods might have clouded his vision, or more likely he can't actually see into the future. If he could Horus probably would not have been able to beat him, he would have been able to forsee all his blows, and stuff.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red Comet wrote:It sounds like the Emperor didn't read the manual on parenting. If he had the Imperium would be better off.

Sig quoteable.

zilegil wrote:
The chaos gods might have clouded his vision, or more likely he can't actually see into the future. If he could Horus probably would not have been able to beat him, he would have been able to forsee all his blows, and stuff.

The Emperor could see the future, it says so in one of the short stories. However, He could not see past a certain point (which is never elaborated upon). That's not how the seeing the future works in 40K. There are many different strands of the future, and you can only determine which is the more likely (hence why the Eldar can actually lose in battle even if they have a Farseer). In close combat, it's unlikely that you'd be able to see the future sufficiently clearly, quickly enough, and with little enough effort to actually continue fighting.

Ref Angron

I believe Angron had steeled himself for his honorable death in a final glorious battle against his enslavers with his loyal gladiator buddies. He had two/three days to build himself up for that epic death. The Emperor took that death from him and that was what lost him to the Emperor forever. His Gladiator chums were just part of that grand stage Angron had built for himself.

Angron was a proud and consummate warrior and a warrior should die in an epic battle against the odds that meant something.

In the emperors defence he couldnt teleport down and interfere in Angron's battle as he would have lost him that way as well by stealing his moment/glory. The timing cost the Emperor with Angron, a week earlier and it all would have been so different, so i dont think anything the Emperor could do at that point other than save Angron and hope Angron would forgive him.

In stopping the Heresy.

1 Recognize the taint on Colcis when Lorgat was found, that the cult was a Chaos worshipping one and steering Lorgar away from it.

2 The Emperor underestimating the Chaos gods, he should have known they would have tried something big and his sons were prime targets as they were at their initial dispersal due to the raw chaos he had used to give them their powers in the first place.

3 He gave Horus too much power, he should have split it 4 ways, Horus, Sanginius, Gulliman and Fulgrim, either as a council or four crusade leaders (N, S, E W of the galaxy).

The Emperor should have let Horus keep his pets:

The Emperor, who can see the future, not creating Lorgar.

Pilau Rice wrote:It would have been a good idea, but was it really necessary, should it have been necessary? If Horus loved his father as much as it is implied then couldn't he have just accepted that he wasn't ready to start revealing his plans. Looking back yeah, it was something that the Emperor should have told Horus, because Horus was weak.

It's not just parental, it's professional. Horus was both his son and his greatest general. It is unusual for an Emperor to not consult those who work directly under him on his plans, it implied to Horus that the Emperor didn't trust him enough, despite all he had done. And really... There was no reason at all not to tell the Primarchs.

Do note I'm not trying to say "Horus was right to join Chaos and betray the Emperor," but I can sorta see why he let this moment of weakness occur that allowed him to be corrupted.

At the same time, the Emperor did a lot of gak that led to his sons turning traitor. There is no justification for what he did to Angron.

I'm playing a bit of Devils Advocate here as I think that it would have been right for the Emperor to sit his Sons down and say look boys, I have to go and work on something very important it will do x, y and z etc etc. Rather than right I'm orf back to Terra, Horus you're in charge GOOD BAI!

I don't think you can argue otherwise, IMO, lol. There was no reason for the Emperor's secrecy with that in particular.

In a way the Emperor did tell Magnus

Spoiler:

after he discovers the webway portal on Aghoru and lets the Emperor know about it, who in turn says he already knows.

You could argue someone as intelligent as Magnus should of made the logical leap, or at least considered that, but I wouldn't consider tha telling him, myself.

Quite right.

It's thinking like that that put the Emperor on a chair for ten thousand years.


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heresy4life wrote:Ref Angron

I believe Angron had steeled himself for his honorable death in a final glorious battle against his enslavers with his loyal gladiator buddies. He had two/three days to build himself up for that epic death. The Emperor took that death from him and that was what lost him to the Emperor forever. His Gladiator chums were just part of that grand stage Angron had built for himself.

Angron was a proud and consummate warrior and a warrior should die in an epic battle against the odds that meant something.

In the emperors defence he couldnt teleport down and interfere in Angron's battle as he would have lost him that way as well by stealing his moment/glory. The timing cost the Emperor with Angron, a week earlier and it all would have been so different, so i dont think anything the Emperor could do at that point other than save Angron and hope Angron would forgive him.

In stopping the Heresy.

1 Recognize the taint on Colcis when Lorgat was found, that the cult was a Chaos worshipping one and steering Lorgar away from it.

2 The Emperor underestimating the Chaos gods, he should have known they would have tried something big and his sons were prime targets as they were at their initial dispersal due to the raw chaos he had used to give them their powers in the first place.

3 He gave Horus too much power, he should have split it 4 ways, Horus, Sanginius, Gulliman and Fulgrim, either as a council or four crusade leaders (N, S, E W of the galaxy).

According to After De'Shea, what bothers him most is that he can't give his due to his dead brothers and sisters the way the gladiators were taught to, because he didn't even see how they died. He didn't want to die, but he also didn't want to abandon his fellow slaves, without even being able to see their final moment.

Void__Dragon wrote:
There was no reason for the Emperor's secrecy with that in particular.

Reasons:

1) No Primarch other than Magnus knows the Webway even exists.

2) The Eldar absolutely can't find out about the project. It can't become common knowledge.

3) He had no idea if it would work and the Emperor of Mankind cannot fail or let anyone know he failed.

4) Perhaps he never wanted anyone to know the original purpose/construction of the Webway. Maybe he wanted credit for the whole thing.

5) Probably just that being the Emperor made him a little too self important.

I think it could all have been avoided if, when he was about make Horus Warmaster, he told the Primarchs to leave their best generals in charge of the legions for a while, then took all the Primarchs back to Terra with him, showed them the throne, talked them all through the plan, explained everything, listened to their thoughts on it, and told them his plans for each of them.
And cooking a nice family meal wouldn't have gone amiss either, I mean really, 48 00 years old, I'm sure he can cook a decent meal for his kids as a celebration for what they were about to do. Maybe have Christmas as a family for once. But I digress, he should have just given his sons the tour of Daddy's workshop and explained that he has to work long hours from home for a while, so the they have to take over the family business for a while.

BrainDeleted wrote:Reasons:

1) No Primarch other than Magnus knows the Webway even exists.

2) The Eldar absolutely can't find out about the project. It can't become common knowledge.

3) He had no idea if it would work and the Emperor of Mankind cannot fail or let anyone know he failed.

4) Perhaps he never wanted anyone to know the original purpose/construction of the Webway. Maybe he wanted credit for the whole thing.

5) Probably just that being the Emperor made him a little too self important.

Okay, no "good" reasons.

Were those reasons true, it really just supports the notion that the Emperor is a dick.

-From the very start telling the primarchs of the dangers of the warp.
-Letting Angron finnish his fight.
-Choosing a more 'subtle' way to caution both Lorgar and Magnus.
-Seeing the GC through to the bitter end.
-Telling the primarchs the importance of his webway project.

Given his sons 'the talk' instead of delaying it.

Alll of these are really good. One i'd like to add is the iron warriors. They were treated like crap, basically if they'd have been kept as a real legion and not spread out then istvaan would have probably turned out 100% differently. Considering they already pretty much hated the imperium by the time horus brought them a fruit basket.

Alll of these are really good. One i'd like to add is the iron warriors. They were treated like crap, basically if they'd have been kept as a real legion and not spread out then istvaan would have probably turned out 100% differently. Considering they already pretty much hated the imperium by the time horus brought them a fruit basket.

Pretty much.

The Emp did his fair share of scolding and wrist slapping. Magnus being a big one in my book. Council of Nikea tried to send him to his room with no video games. Nice try.

im2randomghgh wrote:The Emperor, who can see the future, not creating Lorgar.

I don't get how the Emperor who had unparalleled foresight didn't see the whole Heresy thing coming. I can only guess that it was down to the intervention of the Chaos Gods, but maybe he might have thought, hmm I can't see past this turn of events perhaps I should play it safe for awhile. I guess this could be why he left the Crusade when he did. He had spent enough time to see how loyal they were to him and decided that the end of Ullanor was the time to leave. I hope we get some insight into what was going on in the Emperors mind to see why he didn't see what was going to happen.

Void__Dragon wrote:It's not just parental, it's professional. Horus was both his son and his greatest general. It is unusual for an Emperor to not consult those who work directly under him on his plans, it implied to Horus that the Emperor didn't trust him enough, despite all he had done. And really... There was no reason at all not to tell the Primarchs.

Apart from the greatest human being there ever being believing that they weren't ready to find out? Maybe he was afraid what they might do, perhaps he was worried that if he told them they might be rather upset that they would be effectively redundant, I wonder what might have happened if they felt like that, maybe they might have rebelled?

Void__Dragon wrote:Do note I'm not trying to say "Horus was right to join Chaos and betray the Emperor," but I can sorta see why he let this moment of weakness occur that allowed him to be corrupted.

Oh yeah I entirely agree, I'm just sticking up for the Emperor, he gets a rough deal It's quite clear though that the Emperor was a bit of a nob.

Void__Dragon wrote:At the same time, the Emperor did a lot of gak that led to his sons turning traitor. There is no justification for what he did to Angron.

True, but then again some didn't help themselves and some like Mortarion, harboured grudges, not all entirely due to the Emperor. He could have handled Angron better for sure, that's undeniable. But maybe he teleported him off the planet out of Love, if not necessity? He's already had to lose two of his sons.

Void__Dragon wrote:I don't think you can argue otherwise, IMO, lol. There was no reason for the Emperor's secrecy with that in particular.

We might not think so, but the Emperor certainly did.

Void__Dragon wrote:You could argue someone as intelligent as Magnus should of made the logical leap, or at least considered that, but I wouldn't consider tha telling him, myself.

If Magnus was intelligent he would have stopped using Sorcery after Nikaea

Void__Dragon wrote:It's thinking like that that put the Emperor on a chair for ten thousand years.

Or was it other people Egos that were to blame?