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Pilau Rice wrote:He could have handled Angron better for sure, that's undeniable. But maybe he teleported him off the planet out of Love, if not necessity? He's already had to lose two of his sons.

If the Emperor really loved Angron then He would have saved Angrons comrades as well. The fact that He didn't is suspicious. Either the Emperor just decided not to for no real reason, or it had something to do with that world in particular (the best argument I've heard was that it held important technology or information, so it was important to keep the high-riders on-board (and He probably figured that Angron would get over it)).

I think the Emperor was a bit peeved at this moment as Angron had killed 2 of his Custodes as well as been told to get bent by him as well.

Maybe if Angron had been a bit ... nicer about the whole situation the Emperor might have lent a hand?

Good idea though about the Tech.

The Emperor had just told him to abandon his allies in fairness to him. It's understandable he'd get a bit annoyed.

I thought the High Riders were Dark Eldar for some reason...

Pilau Rice wrote:I think the Emperor was a bit peeved at this moment as Angron had killed 2 of his Custodes as well as been told to get bent by him as well.

Maybe if Angron had been a bit ... nicer about the whole situation the Emperor might have lent a hand?

The Emperor had, however, just tried to get him to abandon his friends and comrades to die while Angron survived on a spaceship with no explanation given as to why Angron should trust the Emperor or why the Emperor would not save his comrades.

Good idea though about the Tech.

It's the only idea I've heard that seems to make sense. Otherwise it seems like the Emperor wanted to anger Angron.

Pilau Rice wrote:I think the Emperor was a bit peeved at this moment as Angron had killed 2 of his Custodes as well as been told to get bent by him as well.

Maybe if Angron had been a bit ... nicer about the whole situation the Emperor might have lent a hand?

Good idea though about the Tech.

Eh, there's plenty of instances where the first meeting between Emperor and Primarch was a tad hostile. You'd think that the Emperor would have cut Angron a little slack, what with the brain surgery that had been inflicted on him and the rather stressful situation that he was in. Instead he just dumps him off on the World Eaters, who end up having a half-dozen of their guys pulped before they're able to talk him down.

I think the Emperor thought the best way to ensure the primarchs' loyalty was to humiliate them if they didn't immediately submit to his authority. Russ, Angron, Mortarion... why didn't he just help them instead?

Yeah, lots of ways to avoid the big meltdown:

-Giving the primarchs and the legions some basic primer on Chaos. "They will try to corrupt you and will undo you through you very virtues. Give them no heed."

-Not crapping all over Lorgar and Magnus. Even if he wanted to get his way, he could have done it better.

-More practically, the Luna Wolves putting Horus in statis (as they eventually -did-) when he got wounded and going back to Terra so the Emperor could heal and reassure him.

One word. Boobs. 'Nuff said.

Thatguy91 wrote:One word. Boobs. 'Nuff said.

Empress of man?

Actually, why is it that none of the primarchs ever were married or anything? Russ seems like he would've liked to try out all the virtues of humanity, not just the booze.

Durza wrote:Actually, why is it that none of the primarchs ever were married or anything? Russ seems like he would've liked to try out all the virtues of humanity, not just the booze.

How can you embark on universal conquest when your wife keeps nagging "get your power armor out of the living room!" and "get that powerfist out of my sock draw!" for the next 10 thousand years?

what keeps all families together?


dinner. They needed more family dinners where they could speak

True, but it would have been one more thing to keep them at the emperors side. At the risk of sounding very corny I will say that the power Love has over people can be just as strong as the power that chaos has to subjugate.

Jollydevil wrote:

Durza wrote:Actually, why is it that none of the primarchs ever were married or anything? Russ seems like he would've liked to try out all the virtues of humanity, not just the booze.

How can you embark on universal conquest when your wife keeps nagging "get your power armor out of the living room!" and "get that powerfist out of my sock draw!" for the next 10 thousand years?

When they were on their home planet, though. Surely they would've been the most eligible bachelors in the world?

Durza wrote:Actually, why is it that none of the primarchs ever were married or anything? Russ seems like he would've liked to try out all the virtues of humanity, not just the booze.

I'd have to imagine it'd be because the Primarchs are generally over ten feet tall with the strength to level mountains.

"Ouch" does not begin to describe it.


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Pilau Rice wrote:Apart from the greatest human being there ever being believing that they weren't ready to find out? Maybe he was afraid what they might do, perhaps he was worried that if he told them they might be rather upset that they would be effectively redundant, I wonder what might have happened if they felt like that, maybe they might have rebelled?

That doesn't make sense though. Why would they be redundant? "Oh, you mean we get to go to the planets we kick ass on even faster?" I see no logical reason why the Emperor would believe that.

Personally, my interpretation is that, like how every Primarch inherited aspects of the Emperor, the Lion inherited the Emperor's total lack of real charisma and inability to read others. Oh sure, his immense psychic powers that made everyone in the room get boners and his ability to read minds compensated when around lesser beings, but such methods didn't work on the Primarchs, who all had immense psychic defenses and were not as prone to insta-boners in the Emperor's presence. So, he didn't know how to really handle them in a way without pissing someone off. It helps that IMO the Emperor has never been portrayed as genuinely charismatic IMHO, he came off as kind of a ponce in "The Last Church" for example.

Oh yeah I entirely agree, I'm just sticking up for the Emperor, he gets a rough deal It's quite clear though that the Emperor was a bit of a nob.

Yeah. Don't mistake my opinion though either, I think the Emperor was sort of a dick, but he wasn't a monster, and is much less vile than many beings in the settings, and some Primarchs, like Mortarion for example.

True, but then again some didn't help themselves and some like Mortarion, harboured grudges, not all entirely due to the Emperor. He could have handled Angron better for sure, that's undeniable. But maybe he teleported him off the planet out of Love, if not necessity? He's already had to lose two of his sons.

Well, Mortarion I'll admit couldn't really be helped so easily. I don't know a whole lot about Mortarion, but from what I can tell, Mortarion's defining character trait is that he's sinister, to the core. I could buy the Emperor teleporting Angron off-planet to save him, but... Why not do that to his brothers and sisters to? Or better yet, why not use your massive ship to utterly annihilate the enemy force? Or just destroy them yourself? Which really would have given the Emperor Angron's respect, the Emperor riding into battle with him and crushing the enemy army under his own power. It wouldn't even be difficult for the Emperor.

We might not think so, but the Emperor certainly did.

I think it's more that the Emperor didn't think him not telling them would be of any consequence, rather than a conscious decision to withhold information.

If Magnus was intelligent he would have stopped using Sorcery after Nikaea

To be fair, he did stop, until he was able to make sense of his vision, discern that it was true, and used sorcery to trasmit a message to Horus and then the Emperor.

Or was it other people Egos that were to blame?

The Emperor is just as guilty of arrogance as the Primarchs, IMO. Though yes, many traitor Primarchs were horribly arrogant, like Fulgrim, Horus, and Magnus in particular.

Having just finished Outcast Dead I get the impression that there was no way the Heresy could have been avoided which makes me think the Emperor was a **** to half the primarchs so when it did happen He'd know who was on what side.

Female primarchs... now there's an idea...

The only way the Heresy could have really been prevented, 100%...Stop the scattering of the Primarches.

The Emperor tells Horus what he was gonna do on Terra.
Honestly, what reason did he have to not tell his most trusted son about it?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:One word. Boobs. 'Nuff said.

Empress of man?

Yes, children who weren't breastfed tend to turn out maladjusted. Bam, there's your Heresy right there.

For an all wise and smart dude that lived for thousands of years and has seen plenty of stuff he made some rather elementary mistakes...

a) Angorn : Get down there and help him, if you cant turn the tide offer him an escape for him and his surviving people
b) Mortarion : Dont be so gloomy...
c) Horus & Magnus & Lorgar : Tell them why you are doing what you are doing in each case (why you are leaving,why sorcery = bad , why you are not a god)
d) Explain Warp&Chaos (Summary: Fire burns wood, Chaos burns your soul and no you cannot tame it, I am looking at you Magnus)
e) Fulgrim : You are NOT supposed to be perfect, me loves you the way you are
f) Perturabo : Thank you for being there and doing the job no1 wants to, dont know what we would do without you. Now Dorn take his responsibilities and give the guy a break from sieges and garrisons
g) Russ : I use sorcery and you were created by it so stop nagging and whining like a pup
h) Guil : You are not superior so stop looking down your brothers
i) Alph & Omeg : You 2 are spenidng more time with me and enough with trying to confuse me on who is who, get your helmets off while you are talking to me
j) Lion : Dont be so secretive, we are not in Caliban and you are not in the woods any more
k) Cruze : Terror does not always work, try to be more polite

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
The Emperor had, however, just tried to get him to abandon his friends and comrades to die while Angron survived on a spaceship with no explanation given as to why Angron should trust the Emperor or why the Emperor would not save his comrades.

I think the whole meeting between the two when the Emperor tried to talk to him would have included the explanation. I am your father you are my son etc etc.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It's the only idea I've heard that seems to make sense. Otherwise it seems like the Emperor wanted to anger Angron.

Or maybe he didn't you know, want to see his son die.


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Void__Dragon wrote:
That doesn't make sense though. Why would they be redundant? "Oh, you mean we get to go to the planets we kick ass on even faster?" I see no logical reason why the Emperor would believe that.

Personally, my interpretation is that, like how every Primarch inherited aspects of the Emperor, the Lion inherited the Emperor's total lack of real charisma and inability to read others. Oh sure, his immense psychic powers that made everyone in the room get boners and his ability to read minds compensated when around lesser beings, but such methods didn't work on the Primarchs, who all had immense psychic defenses and were not as prone to insta-boners in the Emperor's presence. So, he didn't know how to really handle them in a way without pissing someone off. It helps that IMO the Emperor has never been portrayed as genuinely charismatic IMHO, he came off as kind of a ponce in "The Last Church" for example.

The Primarchs were created out of necessity, they were created to wage war across the stars. Like the Thunder Warriors were created to wage war across Terra. If the webway was completed before the Primarch Project then the Emperor would not have required the Primarchs. Read the Outcast Dead for an insight into this.

And on Lion, there's two conflicting accounts on him one that can and one that can't read people, Horus comments on it in I think Horus Rising.

Void__Dragon wrote:Well, Mortarion I'll admit couldn't really be helped so easily. I don't know a whole lot about Mortarion, but from what I can tell, Mortarion's defining character trait is that he's sinister, to the core. I could buy the Emperor teleporting Angron off-planet to save him, but... Why not do that to his brothers and sisters to? Or better yet, why not use your massive ship to utterly annihilate the enemy force? Or just destroy them yourself? Which really would have given the Emperor Angron's respect, the Emperor riding into battle with him and crushing the enemy army under his own power. It wouldn't even be difficult for the Emperor.

That's my thoughts exactly, why didn't he help Angron like he did Corax on Deliverance? I think he let his humanity get in the way. Angron made him Angry

Void__Dragon wrote:To be fair, he did stop, until he was able to make sense of his vision, discern that it was true, and used sorcery to trasmit a message to Horus and then the Emperor.

No the Thousand Sons and Magnus did not stop using Sorcery, at all.

Pilau Rice wrote:
No the Thousand Sons and Magnus did not stop using Sorcery, at all.

Yes, they did. He ordered they abstain from all psychic powers and sent them to the libraries of Prospero to do research into the revelations given to him by that daemon. Then, when he gathered all the material and decided to try and save Horus/communicate with the Emperor, they were all uneasy with it because it seemed to ritualistic/sorcerous.

Please, if you're going to correct people, at least have the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

The Emperor should have punished Lorgar differently after the events at Monarchia. If he had done so, Lorgar wouldn't have gone into the Eye of Terror, wouldn't have met Ingrethel, who wouldn't have taken Argel Tal the Gal Vorbak back to the creation of the Primarches. If this hadn't had happened, Argel Tal wouldn't have destroyed the Geller Field protecting the developing Primarches, preventing them from being sucked into the Warp, which subsequently prevents them being tainted by Chaos. If Lorgar wasn't tainted in this case then it is completly averted.

Omegus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
No the Thousand Sons and Magnus did not stop using Sorcery, at all.

Yes, they did. He ordered they abstain from all psychic powers and sent them to the libraries of Prospero to do research into the revelations given to him by that daemon. Then, when he gathered all the material and decided to try and save Horus/communicate with the Emperor, they were all uneasy with it because it seemed to ritualistic/sorcerous.

Please, if you're going to correct people, at least have the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

But he didn't did he, contacting Horus on Davin via Sorcery check, contacting the Emperor on Earth via Sorcery check. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons had kept their noses clean, would the Emperor had to unleash the Wolves on them? No.

Knowing that there were instances I went home and flicked through the book a Thousand Sons, voila

We have Lemuels continued training, Amon and Ankhu Anen trying to discover what was bugging Magnus, Hathor Matt using his power to burn out the Psychneuein larva. Only they know what else the other Thousand Sons were getting up to.

They were uneasy because of the level of power required for the Sorcery.

Pilau Rice wrote:I think the whole meeting between the two when the Emperor tried to talk to him would have included the explanation. I am your father you are my son etc etc.

It was a terrible way to try and make a 'meeting'. You're my son, come leave your brothers-in-arms who you've just lead in rebellion to die. Noone is going to believe the Emperor in that situation. Angron didn't even know why he'd been taken when he was talking to Kharn.

Or maybe he didn't you know, want to see his son die.

The Emperor could have saved the rest of the gladiators. He chose not to. The High-Riders would not have been able to resist an entire Astartes Legion with the Emperor at their fore.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It was a terrible way to try and make a 'meeting'. You're my son, come leave your brothers-in-arms who you've just lead in rebellion to die. Noone is going to believe the Emperor in that situation. Angron didn't even know why he'd been taken when he was talking to Kharn.

But none of the other Primarchs that he sat down with and had a chat to tried to attack him. Challenged him, yeah, attacked him not quite.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
The Emperor could have saved the rest of the gladiators. He chose not to. The High-Riders would not have been able to resist an entire Astartes Legion with the Emperor at their fore.

I get that, but this is after Angrons attacked him.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
No the Thousand Sons and Magnus did not stop using Sorcery, at all.

Yes, they did. He ordered they abstain from all psychic powers and sent them to the libraries of Prospero to do research into the revelations given to him by that daemon. Then, when he gathered all the material and decided to try and save Horus/communicate with the Emperor, they were all uneasy with it because it seemed to ritualistic/sorcerous.

Please, if you're going to correct people, at least have the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

But he didn't did he, contacting Horus on Davin via Sorcery check, contacting the Emperor on Earth via Sorcery check. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons had kept their noses clean, would the Emperor had to unleash the Wolves on them? No.

Knowing that there were instances I went home and flicked through the book a Thousand Sons, voila

We have Lemuels continued training, Amon and Ankhu Anen trying to discover what was bugging Magnus, Hathor Matt using his power to burn out the Psychneuein larva. Only they know what else the other Thousand Sons were getting up to.

They were uneasy because of the level of power required for the Sorcery.

So you are just confirming what I said, they didn't use any sorcery except for the rituals Magnus decided were necessary, and they were all uncomfortable with the ritualistic/pagan (for a lack of a better word) nature of them.

Lemuel's training and Hathor Mat's therapy are not sorcery, there is no indication that they were sorcery. Yes, these things went against Magnus' order to follow the Emperor's prohibition against psychic powers, but it seems every other Legion ignored that as well.

And the Emperor didn't "unleash" the Wolves on them, they were sent to bring Magnus to Terra, but rabid dogs are easily manipulated/misdirected.

Omegus wrote:
So you are just confirming what I said, they didn't use any sorcery except for the rituals Magnus decided were necessary, and they were all uncomfortable with the ritualistic/pagan (for a lack of a better word) nature of them.

Lemuel's training and Hathor Mat's therapy are not sorcery, there is no indication that they were sorcery. Yes, these things went against Magnus' order to follow the Emperor's prohibition against psychic powers, but it seems every other Legion ignored that as well.

And the Emperor didn't "unleash" the Wolves on them, they were sent to bring Magnus to Terra, but rabid dogs are easily manipulated/misdirected.

Sorcery and the use of psychic powers with the Thousand Sons is one and the same. They were told not to use any power, but they still continued to do so. Where in A Thousand Sons does it say that Magnus ordered his troops to cease the use of their powers?

Yeah so the Emperor Unleashed them to bring Magnus back to Terra, they are little more than Dogs so that terms correct. Unleashed is the term used in Outcast Dead, Horus just changed the order. Unleashed, sent, directed, doesn't matter. Magnus still caused the Emperor to send the Wolves to Prospero because he decided to ignore what the Emperor said.

Pilau Rice wrote:
But none of the other Primarchs that he sat down with and had a chat to tried to attack him. Challenged him, yeah, attacked him not quite.

None of them were kidnapped and effectively made to stand idly by while their comrades were being slaughtered.

I get that, but this is after Angrons attacked him.

Angron attacked the Emperor after the Emperor kidnapped him via teleportation (an entirely justifiable response). Didn't the Emperor ask him to leave his comrades while actually on the planet, and then when Angron refused returned to His ship and teleported Angron up?