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needs more freebooters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
woohoo, my very own page. I don't have the material to make my own, so I pirated yours!! kidding.

Mahtamori wrote:Let's see.

Codex Catapults.
GEQ. 2 chances of 1/2 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/1 pierce. 55,6% chance to score at least one kill.
MEQ. 2 chances of 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 pierce. 16,0% chance to score at least one kill

Dave Catapults.
GEQ. 3 chances of 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/1 pierce. Average 4,5 killed per 6 models shooting. 57,8% chance to score at least one kill
MEQ. 3 chances of 1/2 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/3 pierce. 15.8% chance to score at least one kill.

Conclusion: While the expected outcome is only marginally better, the real difference is the variation in outcome (which will tend to slightly better results) and above all the range.
With 18" range the models do have a chance to do something before they are locked in close combat, but it is above all an upgrade for vehicles where the catapults were often something you could be excused forgetting.

Regarding the Lasblaster change - very neatly done, sir. Differentiating Hawks and Spiders just like that.

Whoops. That's what I meant; same damage output, but better range. Correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't done the maths) but I'd imagine this Shuriken Catapult pulls ahead when BS4 or twin-linked.
As you said though, the increased range is the key thing here.
And you get Mind Link on Autarchs as you suggested before.

Thanks for the kind words man.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Like the new catapults.

Cheers!
Out of curiosity, why the ''? Just 'cause?

Otis The Barbarian wrote:needs more freebooters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
woohoo, my very own page. I don't have the material to make my own, so I pirated yours!! kidding.

I don't even...

Yeah, you did write 18" range, don't worry, though I haven't looked through the PDF, only your summary.

Well, the new version is better regardless of hit chance, due to having three chances. The comparable risk of not scoring a kill at all should be the same assuming BS4 or twin-link for both models compared, but the fact that while the chance of killing something is the same, you get increased chance of killing multiple enemies per model, meaning the average kill rate is higher.

I just wrote down the numbers for anyone who'll react to the lower strength. (Oh, and another aspect is that S3 can not glance vehicles from behind.)

And yes, I am all for more options and more interesting HQ

Maugan Ra, Harvester of Souls:
Is it correct that the Maugetar is "only" a ranged weapon now? It used to have close combat potential...

you know, Eldar corsairs.

motorhead1945 wrote:Maugan Ra, Harvester of Souls:
Is it correct that the Maugetar is "only" a ranged weapon now? It used to have close combat potential...

Oops. Helluva catch man! Yeah, that's a mistake, I'll edit it to include an executioner, so yes, it should also include and executioner...

Otis The Barbarian wrote:you know, Eldar corsairs.

Ah, well then, no, they are not going to be added.
For several reasons really, the main 3 being (in no particular order):
1) They don't have a role within the Codex; as standard they'd be similar to Dire Avengers, whilst the other units have covered most other combat roles and leave little if any space to be occupied by Corsairs.
2) It's a Craftworld Eldar Codex.
3) They're covered by Forgeworld.

Just Dave wrote:
3) They're covered by Forgeworld.

I'm just here to chime in that Just Dave has a point here. Imo FW has done a pretty good job with the corsairs, giving them powerful mobility of dark eldar but still giving a good flavor of Craftworld.

Although it should be noted that Shadow Spectres aren't corsairs, they are Craftworlders. It's a minor point, though.

Codex has been updated to include the Executioner in Maugan Ra's profile.

Now gonna put the 1st entry in the Space Marine 'dex.

I just want to say I am a fan of your work sir.

Thanks man! I really appreciate it.

I'm trying to convince my brother and my primary opponent to let me use your fandex in our homebattles. He plays Orks and Grey Knight Inquisition, but the main problem he has with it is that Scorp exarchs and Pathfinders can pick the teeth out of his forces support (Painboyz, Nobs, Inquisitors, Jokero ect.) I really like these powers and was wondering if I could get a quote on their balance. His main argument is that most units that ignore wound allocation are much more exspensive (Assasins, Tellius, ect.) and that a model that costs only around 43 points that can do it is seriously OP.

Oriallis wrote:I'm trying to convince my brother and my primary opponent to let me use your fandex in our homebattles. He plays Orks and Grey Knight Inquisition, but the main problem he has with it is that Scorp exarchs and Pathfinders can pick the teeth out of his forces support (Painboyz, Nobs, Inquisitors, Jokero ect.) I really like these powers and was wondering if I could get a quote on their balance. His main argument is that most units that ignore wound allocation are much more exspensive (Assasins, Tellius, ect.) and that a model that costs only around 43 points that can do it is seriously OP.

Thanks Oriallis, if you could use it (even at the expense of those models/powers) that would be great! In regards to the abilities you specifically mention, my opinion behind their balancing is this:

A standard sniper shot would only have a 18.5% chance, per shot, to wound a MeQ. Obviously this would be better with the rending on a 5+, rather than 6+, but the chances are still not that high. Also remember that it's only a single shot, so your Nobs and Painboyz should be relatively safe.
Furthermore, although the model is relatively cheap, it is still 43pts for a single wound, T3 model that must remain stationary to fire.
He suffers many of the limitations of low damage output of snipers, is in a high-cost-per-model unit that has clear vulnerabilities.
Kommandos and Incinerators would provide a serious, serious danger to any ranger unit which are also stationary troops.
That they are stationary also means it can be easier to evade Line of Sight, particularly when combined with vehicles.
I won't deny, the Pathfinder is a powerful model, but he has clear weaknesses and is still expensive for a single-wound. Ultimately, I think it would be best to play-test it ().
Telion and the assassin also have other uses (such as buffing their unit or anti-tank, respectively) unlike the Pathfinder.

As for the Exarch, again, as with all Eldar, he has clear identifiable weaknesses, particularly a complete lack of ranged abilities, a lack of armour-piercing and a relative lack of manoeuvrability.
Against a standard MeQ, a Scorpion Exarch would only do 0.56 wounds and that's on the charge.

I admit, I think your brother faces an issue in that he plays two predominantly low-save infantry armies, which are what these 2 units excel against (whereas proper Grey Knights would probably be fine), but I genuinely don't believe these units are too powerful and I would encourage play-testing if possible, but I honestly welcome the criticism and understand it, but as with most Eldar, these units have limited and specialised use, requiring smart and tactical play which a smart and tactical opponent could counter (e.g. with the use of vehicles for protection or out-flanking).

I'd love to hear if you have anything more to say on this or if you do play with the Codex though, thanks Oriallis!

You could always look for ork fixes for your brother. Grey knight inquisition is already one of the most powerful things in the game. Mention to him the viability of a Xenos inquisitor with Rad and Pschotrope grenades, in a squad of 4 DCA and 5 crusaders, in a rhino. 5 ablative 3++ wounds, a bunch of high initiative power weapons at decent WS and S, the enemy will be at T2 most of the time (meaning instant death!), and they can get fairly far up the map if they pop smoke.

Ork Kommandos (with Burnas), Battlewagons and Deffkoptas would be my recommendations for the Orks if you're worried about the Rangers. Or almost ANY attack that ignores cover, which can include blast weapons...
As for the Scorpions; as the Ork adage goes, "chop the shooty onez, shoot the choppy onez"

Hi!

So, me and my pals play tested your codex, and after ~5 battles (2 with v4, 3 with v5) we agreed in that:

- The Jetbike Council is totally OP. 8 Jetbike Warlock with a Jetbike Farseer clock around 610 points but they can kill anything. 35 points for a Warlock is waaaay too cheap. Especially with the free psychic powers. Especially with Assail.
- Sundering Sentinels are way too good compared to Dire Avengers. Especially with the Shuriken nerf. On this note, the Shuriken hip-cannons are still S4 - is this intentional?
- The drop of strength in the case of shuriken weaponry caused a true rage-fest for our Eldar player. And honestly, i can understand him. Shuriken weapons are essentially hand-held railguns that fire clouds of power weapon chips. And they have the same strength of a lasgun ?
- The list of the completely unusuable units in the codex (under unusuable i mean "totally crap"): Phoenix Lords, Dire Avengers, Guardian Defenders, the whole Fast Attack selection (the Shining Spears have some redeeming qualities), Support Weapon Batteries.
- There was also some whinning about the ExarchAutarch weapons, but just the ones i mentioned before.
- And our player also missed the Shadow Spectres. Mostly because he has 14 of them ...

Oh, and his very bestest 1750 points list:
HQ - 610
Farseer (Doom, Fortune, Jetbike, Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding) - 170
Seer Council x 8 (Jetbikes, 7x Assail, 1x Enhance) - 440
Elites - 258
Fire Dragons 7+Exarch (Tank Hunters) - 153
- Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Laser) - 105
Troops - 540
Rangers x5 - 90
Rangers x5 - 90
Guardian Jetbikes x5 - 120
Guardian Jetbikes x5 - 120
Guardian Jetbikes x5 - 120
Heavy Support - 340
Wraithlord (2x Bright Lances) - 170
Wraithlord (2x Bright Lances) - 170

He fought three battles with this list and tabled his opponents in all three. And all three enemy armies were super-competitive (SW tourny list, IG leafblower, Ork Battlewagon horde).

Thanks for the informative feedback and playtesting Ato', I'll respond to the final point/game results 1st as I think it's the most pressing/corcerning issue.

AtoMaki wrote:Oh, and his very bestest 1750 points list:
HQ - 610
Farseer (Doom, Fortune, Jetbike, Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding) - 170
Seer Council x 8 (Jetbikes, 7x Assail, 1x Enhance) - 440
Elites - 258
Fire Dragons 7+Exarch (Tank Hunters) - 153
- Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Laser) - 105
Troops - 540
Rangers x5 - 90
Rangers x5 - 90
Guardian Jetbikes x5 - 120
Guardian Jetbikes x5 - 120
Guardian Jetbikes x5 - 120
Heavy Support - 340
Wraithlord (2x Bright Lances) - 170
Wraithlord (2x Bright Lances) - 170

He fought three battles with this list and tabled his opponents in all three. And all three enemy armies were super-competitive (SW tourny list, IG leafblower, Ork Battlewagon horde).

Honestly, I am truly surprised this list did so well. I'm not saying that as a slight to the player or as defence of my Codex, but I genuinely am surprised. There's only 4 real threats in that list; the Seer Council, Fire Dragons and Wraithlords. Theoretically, 12 missiles at BS4 will down a Wraithlord (who costs 170pts each), that leaves 3 missiles for the Wolves (assuming they have Long Fangs) to target probably the wave-serpent. That's 420pts, leaving 1330pts pretty much free to target the Seer Council. I don't doubt the killyness or toughness of that unit (at 610pts it's justified), but theoretically (IIRC), the Warlocks should only be as tough against small arms fire as 24 MeQ's. While that's still a lot, that's potentially up against 1300pts of firepower from 2 of the potentially shootiest armies in the game (Wolves & Guard).
Again, I don't doubt the strength of that unit, but facing the brunt of the enemy army should really do a lot more damage and they are no tougher than existing jetlocks.

I really think I will need some more information from the games and how they went to seriously consider those results. Again, I don't doubt the power of the jetlock council (and it's already powerful in the current game), but that it won so successfully against the armies, despite the weaknesses of the list REALLY surprises me. And again, I don't mean that as a slight against the player or defence of my 'dex, but as genuine surprise.
How did the V.4 version do btw?

35 points for a Warlock is waaaay too cheap. Especially with the free psychic powers. Especially with Assail.

I'll up their cost to 40pts and take a 2nd look at assail.
Note: at 40pts that includes the cost of the psychic power and minor stats boost and is still a T3, 4++ model with no armour-piercing.

- Sundering Sentinels are way too good compared to Dire Avengers. Especially with the Shuriken nerf. On this note, the Shuriken hip-cannons are still S4 - is this intentional?

I'm surprised you think Sundering Sentinels are so much better than Dire Avengers. 5 Sundering Sentinels costs as much as 10 Dire Avengers, but with their Shuriken Hip Cannons actually inflict less damage than the Dire Avengers against GeQ and MeQ.
Furthermore, whilst individually (but not points-for-point) tougher and have slightly better range, they are less manoeuvrable and cannot score. At double the cost.
And yes, the Str4 is intentional; they're meant to be more Shuriken Cannon than Catapult, but I'll give it a second look.

- Especially with the Shuriken nerf... The drop of strength in the case of shuriken weaponry caused a true rage-fest for our Eldar player. And honestly, i can understand him. Shuriken weapons are essentially hand-held railguns that fire clouds of power weapon chips. And they have the same strength of a lasgun ?

It's not a nerf.
Honestly, I'm saying that flat-out (i.e. without 'IMHO'). It's genuinely not a nerf, only in appearance if that. They gain the all important increased range, making them much more survivable and viable. The damage output is equal - if not superior - against GeQ and MeQ (as Maht' has already gone over) than the Str 4/AP5 2-shot version. It suffers against Monstrous Creatures and AV10, but it allows them to reliably stay out of assault range and I think that's a much greater benefit.
As for being the same strength as a lasgun; they essentially fire discs and the main strength of a shuriken weapon has always been its RoF, whilst it has always struck me as odd that a disc has the same damage output as a boltgun.
Again, it really is not a nerf.

- The list of the completely unusuable units in the codex (under unusuable i mean "totally crap"): Phoenix Lords, Dire Avengers, Guardian Defenders, the whole Fast Attack selection (the Shining Spears have some redeeming qualities), Support Weapon Batteries.

I almost take offence at the "totally crap" comment, but I'll respond politely anyway.
Phoenix Lords; look at their stats and what they provide. Compare them to MeQ characters (such as the still pretty competitive - but not wholly - Ragnar Blackmane). They have stats superior to a Chapter Master, Eternal Warrior, impressive weaponry, manoeuvrability, resurrection, only 1 FoC slot and army & squad buffs. They could easily be under-costed.
Dire Avengers; better damage output than current, cheaper, close combat potential and faster.
Guardian Defenders; cheaper upgrades, cheap & ranged scoring unit, cheaper unit, included grenades, better weapon, Warlock has better Ld.
Whole fast attack section:
Shining Spears - Hefty point decrease, increased damage output on charge and at range. Still vulnerable to pro-longed combat.
Warp Spiders - Minor point decrease, reduced damage output vs. vehicles, increased vs. infantry, more reliable JSJ, inflict difficult terrain-movement.
Swooping Hawks - Reduced cost, increased RoF, decreased range, AP3, can skyleap reliably and multiple times. Good for hit-and-run, vulnerable to straight-up-fights.
Vypers - Increased cost to incorporate JSJ ability and incorporated weapon, weapon & upgrades cheaper.
Support Weapon Batteries; less 'damage' to FoC, cheaper, better weapons, cover save as standard. They're not perfect, they never will be with the artillery rules.

- There was also some whinning about the ExarchAutarch weapons, but just the ones i mentioned before.

I'll think about it.

- And our player also missed the Shadow Spectres. Mostly because he has 14 of them ...

"I've never had any intention to include the Shadow Spectre's to be honest. Whilst they have great models, I don't think they really make sense in rules or background, and they are neither a particularly strong or well-fitting concept in-game or background IMHO and have no real place in the Codex, I feel they should remain as FW only; much like Tomb Stalkers etc. "

Just Dave wrote:Honestly, I am truly surprised this list did so well. I'm not saying that as a slight to the player or as defence of my Codex, but I genuinely am surprised. There's only 4 real threats in that list; the Seer Council, Fire Dragons and Wraithlords. Theoretically, 12 missiles at BS4 will down a Wraithlord (who costs 170pts each), that leaves 3 missiles for the Wolves (assuming they have Long Fangs) to target probably the wave-serpent. That's 420pts, leaving 1330pts pretty much free to target the Seer Council. I don't doubt the killyness or toughness of that unit (at 610pts it's justified), but theoretically (IIRC), the Warlocks should only be as tough against small arms fire as 24 MeQ's. While that's still a lot, that's potentially up against 1300pts of firepower from 2 of the potentially shootiest armies in the game (Wolves & Guard).
Again, I don't doubt the strength of that unit, but facing the brunt of the enemy army should really do a lot more damage and they are no tougher than existing jetlocks.

The biggest problem with the Jetbike Council is its speed and the ability to multi-assault everything without problem. Even a single warlock can deal (~5 attacks with WS5, 2+ wounding and Doom) and take (essentially 2+/3++ save) a lots of punishment.

Just Dave wrote:I really think I will need some more information from the games and how they went to seriously consider those results. Again, I don't doubt the power of the jetlock council (and it's already powerful in the current game), but that it won so successfully against the armies, despite the weaknesses of the list REALLY surprises me. And again, I don't mean that as a slight against the player or defence of my 'dex, but as genuine surprise.

The battles were the same: 1st turn - Eldar storms forward with everything / enemy tries to do damage; 2nd turn - Warlocks assault and destroy/swamp everything dangerous in the enemy army; 3rd turn onwards - the Eldar kills stuff. It must be noted though that the Eldar player is one of the best 40k player around who started the Eldar around 2.ed.

Just Dave wrote:How did the V.4 version do btw?

Aside the problems mentioned above, the Eldar player liked your codex. He put it to the "Imperial Guard power level" so: "Very solid army list with weird internal balance.".

Just Dave wrote:I'm surprised you think Sundering Sentinels are so much better than Dire Avengers. 5 Sundering Sentinels costs as much as 10 Dire Avengers, but with their Shuriken Hip Cannons actually inflict less damage than the Dire Avengers against GeQ and MeQ.
Furthermore, whilst individually (but not points-for-point) tougher and have slightly better range, they are less manoeuvrable and cannot score. At double the cost.

Dunno about this. He used both in his Aspect Army, but eventually dropped the DA-s for more SS and after the battle with the changed list he said that the Sundering Sentinels kill the Dire Avenger as a unit selection.

Just Dave wrote:It's not a nerf.
Honestly, I'm saying that flat-out (i.e. without 'IMHO'). It's genuinely not a nerf, only in appearance if that. They gain the all important increased range, making them much more survivable and viable. The damage output is equal - if not superior - against GeQ and MeQ (as Maht' has already gone over) than the Str 4/AP5 2-shot version. It suffers against Monstrous Creatures and AV10, but it allows them to reliably stay out of assault range and I think that's a much greater benefit.
As for being the same strength as a lasgun; they essentially fire discs and the main strength of a shuriken weapon has always been its RoF, whilst it has always struck me as odd that a disc has the same damage output as a boltgun.
Again, it really is not a nerf.

It was something about rolling an 5+ to-wound is harder than rolling a 4+. Its kind of a psychological effect (especially for people that rolls with a D4 ...).
About the strength: i always thought that a single shot from the Shuriken Catapult represents all the shurikens fired by the weapon. I don't know if you can represent the real RoF of the shuriken weapons because it would be like S2 AP4 Assault 20.

Just Dave wrote:Phoenix Lords; look at their stats and what they provide. Compare them to MeQ characters (such as the still pretty competitive - but not wholly - Ragnar Blackmane). They have stats superior to a Chapter Master, Eternal Warrior, impressive weaponry, manoeuvrability, resurrection, only 1 FoC slot and army & squad buffs. They could easily be under-costed.
Dire Avengers; better damage output than current, cheaper, close combat potential and faster.
Guardian Defenders; cheaper upgrades, cheap & ranged scoring unit, cheaper unit, included grenades, better weapon, Warlock has better Ld.
Whole fast attack section:
Shining Spears - Hefty point decrease, increased damage output on charge and at range. Still vulnerable to pro-longed combat.
Warp Spiders - Minor point decrease, reduced damage output vs. vehicles, increased vs. infantry, more reliable JSJ, inflict difficult terrain-movement.
Swooping Hawks - Reduced cost, increased RoF, decreased range, AP3, can skyleap reliably and multiple times. Good for hit-and-run, vulnerable to straight-up-fights.
Vypers - Increased cost to incorporate JSJ ability and incorporated weapon, weapon & upgrades cheaper.
Support Weapon Batteries; less 'damage' to FoC, cheaper, better weapons, cover save as standard. They're not perfect, they never will be with the artillery rules.

On the Phoenix Lords, he complained mostly about their lack of synergy with anything but their discipline squad. He said that they are essentially very expensive squad upgrades that also take up a precious HQ slot.
Guardians and DA-s mostly suffer from "job stealing" - ie there are units in the codex that could do the same thing much better.
Shining Spears are good, but they need plasma grenades badly.
I think the only problem of Warp Spiders are their lack of versatility. He said that they would be perfect with S6 weapons.
Same for Swooping Hawks, their biggest issue is the 18" range of their Sunrifles. Increase it to 24" and they will be good.
There weren't much opinion on Support Batteries only that they should be merged with Guardian Defenders.

Been coming up with a 2000 point list so far with your codex, wanted to hear your opinion:

HQ:
Athairiel Mornynnstar (LOVE skein of Command) 180 pts

Autarch 125 pts
(Swordwind, Mandiblaster, Dragon's Breath Flamer, Vibrospear, Tanglefoot grenades, Shimmershield)

Troops:
Dire Avengers 155 pts
(10, Twin Cats, Bladestorm, Defend)
Dedicated Transport-
Wave Serpent 125 pts
(TL Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones)

Rangers 205 pts
(10, 1 Pathfinder)

Striking Scorpions 205 pts
(10, Biting Blade, Shadowstrike, Hunter)

Fire Dragons 146 pts
(6, Firepike, Tank hunters, Crackshot)
Dedicated Transport-
Falcon 175
(Star Cannon, Spirit Stones, Holofields)

Sundering Sentinels 255 pts
(10, Shuriken Shower, Crack Shot)

Warp Spiders 161 pts
(6, Twin Death Spinners, White Guardians)

Fast Attack:
Shadow Asp 145 pts
(Shadow Asp, TL Nova Lance, Holofields, Spirit Stones)

Heavy Support:
War Walkers 120 pts
(3, 2 Shurik,en Cannoons each)

Basically Mornynnstar hangs with the avengers giving support throughout the army, While the Autarch gives alot of support to the Scorpions with his grenades and prefered enemy, what do you think?

*Molten Body The Avatar benefits from the Feel No Pain special rule (included), furthermore Melta weapons and flame/heat based template (not blast!) weapons cannot wound the Avatar; such as Flamers, Heavy Flamers, Flamestorm Cannons, Hellfire Cannons, Hand Flamers, Scorcha’s, Burna’s, Incinerators, Inferno Cannons, Dragon’s Breath Flamers etc.


Does this include then, things like Flamers of Chaos?
They are breathing Pure Warp Energy onto them ?

I don't think it's the Warlock cost, I think it's the Jetbike cost. Essentially, the improved threat range and armour just makes the model so much better.

--

The Avatar is immune to everything that's fire in fluff. Similar to the GK anti-plasma shield.

'Dex has been updated.


I'll respond to feedback soon. Thanks.

I've read your codex and so far I think it's quite a good one, I'll be playing same games using it and doing some battle reports with them, I hope that helps a little.

Btw, Assail now provides +1 attack and a 1/3 chance of +2, which should hopefully be more balanced IMHO and personally, I'd probably take Destructor for sheer offensiveness...

AtoMaki wrote:Aside the problems mentioned above, the Eldar player liked your codex. He put it to the "Imperial Guard power level" so: "Very solid army list with weird internal balance.".

What would he say causes the weird internal balance? Other than the apparently weak units you've told me about...

Dunno about this. He used both in his Aspect Army, but eventually dropped the DA-s for more SS and after the battle with the changed list he said that the Sundering Sentinels kill the Dire Avenger as a unit selection.

I'd be interested to see the justification for it, after what I had already elaborated upon regarding their comparison to Dire Avengers...

It was something about rolling an 5+ to-wound is harder than rolling a 4+. Its kind of a psychological effect (especially for people that rolls with a D4 ...).

Honestly, I'm OK with a "psychological effect" if it's better in-game and arguably more representative of the weapons description, and ultimately it's really boosted Guardians and Jetbikes, without over-shadowing the bolter IMHO.

On the Phoenix Lords, he complained mostly about their lack of synergy with anything but their discipline squad. He said that they are essentially very expensive squad upgrades that also take up a precious HQ slot.
Guardians and DA-s mostly suffer from "job stealing" - ie there are units in the codex that could do the same thing much better.
Shining Spears are good, but they need plasma grenades badly.
I think the only problem of Warp Spiders are their lack of versatility. He said that they would be perfect with S6 weapons.
Same for Swooping Hawks, their biggest issue is the 18" range of their Sunrifles. Increase it to 24" and they will be good.
There weren't much opinion on Support Batteries only that they should be merged with Guardian Defenders.

Personally, I don't see what else they are supposed to 'synergise' with, nor do I entirely agree with that statement. They almost all powerful close-combat models and as such could work very well with any other the other close combat units, such as Banshees, Harlies, Wraithguard etc. For example, Asurman's Diresword would be very potent in combination with Banshees or Harlies Ld modifier.
Many of the Lords also have reasonable-to-potent ranged abilities as well, so could work in any short-ranged shooty unit, such as Dire Avengers or Sentinels. They are getting a lot of bonuses for their points and make a unit of their disciples very powerful, whilst buffing all others, only taking a single FoC slot together and being powerful themselves. To me, their flaws are their cost (but for what they provide they're still pretty good value) and that they compete with the Farseer.

That other units can do their job but better is inevitable as they are cheap and troop choices, but other choices aren't as cheap or scoring. Dire Avengers can still remain one of the premium anti-infantry ranged units in the army (and can score), whilst Guardians are a cheap support unit and source of additional heavy weapons; as they should be IMHO. Maybe I'm too defensive, but I don't know what he expects from these units?

I don't see the sense of models on jetbikes having grenades personally; it wouldn't make sense in fluff (i.e. Jetbikes are faster than grenades), whilst they are quick enough to pick their own targets, without being forced to charge into terrain IMHO.

Again, I'm not sure what is being expected from an Eldar unit that is primarily anti-infantry (particularly in-fluff); they are now better against infantry, as well as more reliable jumpers, cheaper and (most importantly?) inflicting difficult terrain. Eldar aspects are known for their specialisation and I've sought to follow that trend to reinforce that play-style and balance the Codex...

I really have no intentions to make Support Weapons a part of Guardian Squads, nor do I see the logic behind it, personally. It benefits Support Weapons by making them scoring (the only scoring artillery unit in the game AFAIK) and not occupying a precious Heavy Support slot, however it makes Guardians stationary, unlikely to use their catapults and ultimately little more than additional wounds for the Support Platform.
The support platform is now cheaper, tougher (give him conceal for a 3+), with better weapons and has a significantly less detrimental affect on the FoC slot. I would definitely take them in a Footdar list personally (particularly for Nova Lances) and I don't see the logic in changing this at the cost of the role and abilities of Guardians.

Oriallis wrote:Been coming up with a 2000 point list so far with your codex, wanted to hear your opinion...

Thanks for the list and feedback man!
I'd recommend going for either all-mech or all-foot personally, I feel at 2000pts your army has too few vehicles for them to last very long IMHO. There are advantages to either, with Mech providing better protection, firepower and chance to contest in the last turn (enhanced by Mornyynstar), but Foot-slog renders most Anti-tank weapons useless and enables more actual units.
I'd say choose foot-slog or mech and work from there. If mech, then ensure your heavy support can pop-tanks, get anti-infantry troops in some tanks and fire dragons in others and it should be good.
If foot-slog, I'd recommend Hawks for constant, fast-harassment and potential anti-tank, who could keep the enemy suitably occupied (with scorps?) until the rest reaches them. I'd again recommend Dire Avengers at the core though.
Good luck man!

Bloodhorror wrote:*Molten Body The Avatar benefits from the Feel No Pain special rule (included), furthermore Melta weapons and flame/heat based template (not blast!) weapons cannot wound the Avatar; such as Flamers, Heavy Flamers, Flamestorm Cannons, Hellfire Cannons, Hand Flamers, Scorcha’s, Burna’s, Incinerators, Inferno Cannons, Dragon’s Breath Flamers etc.


Does this include then, things like Flamers of Chaos?
They are breathing Pure Warp Energy onto them ?

While I'd be tempted to agree with Maht' in this case, the the Flamers A) breath warp energy, B) which isn't necessarily heat-based and C) need all the help they can get, I'd say that this doesn't include Flamers of Chaos.

jgehunter wrote:I've read your codex and so far I think it's quite a good one, I'll be playing same games using it and doing some battle reports with them, I hope that helps a little.

Thanks. If you do play some games, please let us know how they go!

Well, I actually meant that the Flamers of Chaos wasn't affected since it wasn't actually fire as far as I know

Just Dave wrote:What would he say causes the weird internal balance? Other than the apparently weak units you've told me about...

He actually made a few parallels with you codex and the IG:
- Your Elites and the IG Fast Attack: both filled with the best selections of their respective codex, but there is only place for three... He loved the Stormwind Autarch though .
- Heavy Support selections in both codexes are full with good stuff, one piece of "mehness" (Dark Reapers/Basilisks) and one piece of "toy for fun play" (Support Weapons/Deathstrike).
- And there is one FOC selection that is full with weak selections (your Fast Attack and the IG Elites).
So yeah, i guess his problem is the weak units...

Just Dave wrote:I'd be interested to see the justification for it, after what I had already elaborated upon regarding their comparison to Dire Avengers...

I guess it was something that the better resilience of the SS actually gives them more "firepower time". And even while you can take double as many DA for every SS, the maximum squad size is the same for both aspects, so the DA squad cannot "soak up" damage with bodies.

Just Dave wrote:Maybe I'm too defensive, but I don't know what he expects from these units?

I only know his expectations about the Warp Spiders: he wants them super-duper OP, because he has 56 of them ... But seriously, he said that the -1S drop on their weapon is like hitting the unit with Satan's sword ...Becuase they cannot hit light vehicles/tougher non-vehicles that good, so their whole hit-and-run strike infantry role is dumped, and they are now a n+1 anti-infantry unit.

Hi!

So after an additional 3 battles with the codex, our Eldar player finally summarized his proposals about each unit:

- No opinions on special characters, as as he didn't tried them out yet.
- Phoenix Lords (in general): Make their discipline boosting powers army-wide, so it will affect every discipline squad in the army, not just the ones the Phoenix Lords joined. Get rid of the Phoenix Reborn rule, but drop their points cost to 170-180 points.
- Baharroth: his Hawk's Claw should have a range of 24".
- Avatar: maybe drop his points cost to 180-190. The second firing mode of the Wailing Doom should be Template instead of Large Blast.
- Farseer: Increase the cost of the runes (all of them) by 5. Increase the cost of the Eldar Jetbike to 35 points.
- Farseer Psychic Powers: Eldricht storm should have unlimited range.
- Warlock Seer Council: Increase the cost of Eldar jetbike to 30 points per model.
- Autarch: Get rid of the Exarch wargear options, and replace them with unique Autarch wargear options. Increase the cost of Eldar jetbike to 35 points.
- Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Sundering Sentinels and Howling Banshees: they are good as they are.
- Wraithguard: Just an option to take Sentinence Spears. Otherwise, they are good.
- Harlequins: Increase the cost of the Shadowseer to +35 points. Increase the cost of the Death Jester to +20 points but make his Shrieker Cannon Poisoned (2+).
- Solitaire: Decrease its points cost to 100-120 points.
- Dire Avengers: See the ideas for Shuriken weapons.
- Guardians (in general): An option to take 4+ armour save. defenders should have the option to take support weapons on their heavy weapon platforms.
- Rangers: Increase their points cost to 20 ppm. Increase the cost of the Pathfinder upgrade to +35 points.
- Wave Serpent: Decrease its cost to 75-80 points. An option to take an assault ramp would be nice (for +30-40 points).
- Swooping Hawks: Increase their weapon range to 24".
- Warp Spiders: Increase their weapon's Strength to 6.
- Shining Spears: They should have a "fly-by attack" like Reavers, and an increased cost of 30ppm with it. Also some sort of instant-killing exarch power instead of Tank Hunters.
- Vypers: BS 4 would be nice, but whatever, they are good as they are.
- Asp: MOAR weapon options.
- Support Weapon Batteries: merge them with Guardian Defenders.
- Dark Reapers: They aren't a bad unit.
- Falcon: Drop points cost to 100 points.
- Fire Prism/Night Spinner: They are good.
- Wraithlord: Increase its points cost to 130 points. Drop the shimmershield option. The second heavy weapon should make the first twin-linked if the two are indentical.
- War Walkers: Increase the cost of Power Diversion Matrix to 10-15 ppm.

- Shuriken weapons: They need some sort of pseudo-rending. Like all to-wound rolls of 6 ignore armour, but no +D3 for armour penetration. This would instantly fix the DA-s. Also drop the range of the shuriken pistol to 12".
- Bright Lances: They should be 20 points each at maximum. But preferably cheaper.

Well, that is all i guess. There are also some rants on the list he gave me, but these are just usual Eldar fanboy raging (like no Shadow Spectres, "Why the Warp Spiders, oh why?" and a very long rant on the Exarch/Autarch weapons). But i spare you from these, because they have zero creative criticism ...

Hope this helps!

AtoMaki wrote:

Just Dave wrote:What would he say causes the weird internal balance? Other than the apparently weak units you've told me about...

He actually made a few parallels with you codex and the IG:
- Your Elites and the IG Fast Attack: both filled with the best selections of their respective codex, but there is only place for three... He loved the Stormwind Autarch though .
- Heavy Support selections in both codexes are full with good stuff, one piece of "mehness" (Dark Reapers/Basilisks) and one piece of "toy for fun play" (Support Weapons/Deathstrike).
- And there is one FOC selection that is full with weak selections (your Fast Attack and the IG Elites).
So yeah, i guess his problem is the weak units...

Again, I guess I disagree with the Fast attack section being full with weak selections; I feel every one of the units in Fast Attack is viable personally.

AtoMaki wrote:Hi!

So after an additional 3 battles with the codex, our Eldar player finally summarized his proposals about each unit:

Thanks again for the feedback and play-testing 'Maki, thanks also for cutting out the whining/complaining crap that I don't want to be dealing with.

- No opinions on special characters, as as he didn't tried them out yet.
- Phoenix Lords (in general): Make their discipline boosting powers army-wide, so it will affect every discipline squad in the army, not just the ones the Phoenix Lords joined. Get rid of the Phoenix Reborn rule, but drop their points cost to 170-180 points.

I feel that would be far too powerful. Making them fearless is a big boost, giving out the unit-only power to everything would be far too powerful IMHO; no scatter Hawks, FNP 'Dragons, Furious Charging Banshees, it'd simply be too much. Furthermore, through wargear alone they're worth more than 180pts. Doing some very simplistic maths: Wolf Lord: 100pts, + Belt of Russ/4++ (20pts), + Saga of the Bear/Eternal Warrior (30pts), +2 exarch powers (~20pts) and weaponry (25pts) - that's 195pts for gear alone and that's being generous. on top of this they have the resurrection, disciple-fearlessness, one-unit-boost and the stats boost.
Furthermore, Phoenix Reborn is very fitting with the fluff and likely too popular for me to want to remove it.

- Baharroth: his Hawk's Claw should have a range of 24".

Done.

- Avatar: maybe drop his points cost to 180-190. The second firing mode of the Wailing Doom should be Template instead of Large Blast.

I've been over before why the Avatar should be fairly priced as it is. If template, then in many cases the player would be better off going for the +1 attack over blast IMHO.

- Farseer: Increase the cost of the runes (all of them) by 5. Increase the cost of the Eldar Jetbike to 35 points.

I don't believe the runes should be that expensive; they may not look it but their cost can quickly rack up and can be similar to how people don't take many upgrades beyond the minimum for some models. AP1 such short-ranged and rare-to-use weapons is not worth 10pts, nor is a one-use destructor worth 10pts IMHO. One I can see the price increasing on is Runes of Warding and that's about it.
Jetbike cost has been upped to 35 however.

- Warlock Seer Council: Increase the cost of Eldar jetbike to 30 points per model.

This I don't intend to do; even with their abilities 65-70pts is a lot for a single model; compare it to Thunderwolves for example, there are weaknesses to the Jetlock council such as psychic-nullification, damage-output (particularly against armour saves) and reliance on a Farseer/Guide.

- Autarch: Get rid of the Exarch wargear options, and replace them with unique Autarch wargear options. Increase the cost of Eldar jetbike to 35 points.

I don't think the Jetbike is worth 35pts for the Autarch. I no longer have any intention to remove the Exarch wargear; if I want these Codices to be anywhere near the level of GW's I cannot be afraid to change; there are masses of justification for Exarch wargear which we (myself and others) have been over already, however I see little justification for MORE (there's already several Autarch-only pieces of equipment) Autarch-only gear outside of conservation; furthermore it would add a lot of entries that can only be used by one model in the entire army.

- Harlequins: Increase the cost of the Shadowseer to +35 points. Increase the cost of the Death Jester to +20 points but make his Shrieker Cannon Poisoned (2+).

I don't see the need for the change to the Death Jester, whilst the Shadowseer will be less necessary with the change I'm about to implement for Harlies/Holo-suits.

- Guardians (in general): An option to take 4+ armour save. defenders should have the option to take support weapons on their heavy weapon platforms.

4+ save is a nice idea, although probably not worth it with the prevalence of cover and conceal and may impinge upon DA's.
I have been over the Support Weapon suggestion in my previous post and I see no real reason to change that stance.

- Rangers: Increase their points cost to 20 ppm. Increase the cost of the Pathfinder upgrade to +35 points.

I am considering a point increase on Rangers, however I believe both 20 and 35pts for each is too much; there are far too many exploitable weaknesses for them to cost too much.

- Wave Serpent: Decrease its cost to 75-80 points. An option to take an assault ramp would be nice (for +30-40 points).

Isn't happening. 75-80pts is too cheap; compare it to a Razorback, who may have better armament, but has worse armour, much worse mobility and half the transport capacity. Wave Serpents are a good unit in the current Codex.

- Swooping Hawks: Increase their weapon range to 24".

I have no intention to change this. At 18" they can either shoot and Eldar-fleet back out of the range of most rapid-fire weapons, or they can Skyleap/deepstrike and use their grenade packs to inflict greater damage, but risk greater punishment, I like the tactical decisions it creates, amongst the other boosts to the 'hawks.

- Warp Spiders: Increase their weapon's Strength to 6.

I shall make them AP5. Better damage output against their main target (infantry) and slightly better against tanks without making them as powerful as Str6 does.

- Shining Spears: They should have a "fly-by attack" like Reavers, and an increased cost of 30ppm with it. Also some sort of instant-killing exarch power instead of Tank Hunters.

Why can the reavers ability not remain unique to reavers? Shining Spears are tougher and much harder-hitting, however they're not as manoeuvrable as Reavers. Tank Hunters adds some greater versatility and hitting power to the unit IMHO.

- Asp: MOAR weapon options.

I don't see why; for these weapons players have the options of Vypers or Waveserpents, or Falcons or War Walkers, or Guardians or Wraithlords. Asp weapons are only use by 2 other units in the 'dex and it helps keep them unique whilst their weapons are already powerful.

- Falcon: Drop points cost to 100 points.

This isn't happening. 100pts is much too cheap. Compare them to Predators: for 5pts more, the Falcon has ~equal armour, much greater speed, slightly-worse damage output, but transport capacity and less FoC occupation.

- Wraithlord: Increase its points cost to 130 points. Drop the shimmershield option. The second heavy weapon should make the first twin-linked if the two are indentical.

+1 wound is barely worth 20pts let alone 40pts. The shimmershield provides protection to a large area, such as squads (and provides interesting options for an Autarch) or large creatures, e.g. the Wraithlord. Paying double-price for twin-linking is also too much.

- War Walkers: Increase the cost of Power Diversion Matrix to 10-15 ppm.

I don't intend to do this, although 10pts isn't unreasonable, nor is 5pts IMHO; they're very fragile, only BS3 and one of the big advantages of Walkers is the ability to move and shoot; all of these seem to work against the increased cost of a PDM IMHO.

- Shuriken weapons: They need some sort of pseudo-rending. Like all to-wound rolls of 6 ignore armour, but no +D3 for armour penetration. This would instantly fix the DA-s. Also drop the range of the shuriken pistol to 12".

No. I don't see the justification for this in-game or in-fluff, pseudo-rending is something I only briefly considered when designing this and is too powerful IMHO. I am unsure of the perceived flaw with DA's, I've explained how they are (arguably) superior to Sundering Sentinels (who are 'good') in damage output and point-to-point toughness, however DA's are also faster, better in close combat, scoring, higher AP and inflict cover-penalty.

Personally I don't see the need to change Shuriken.

- Bright Lances: They should be 20 points each at maximum. But preferably cheaper.

They're the Eldar equivalent to a Lascannon but are only 5pts more than a missile launcher a 1-in-3 chance to penetrate a Land Raider is nothing to be sniffed at and twice-as-good as a Lascannon's chance.

But i spare you from these, because they have zero creative criticism ...

Again, thanks for that.

Just Dave wrote:
I no longer have any intention to remove the Exarch wargear; if I want these Codices to be anywhere near the level of GW's I cannot be afraid to change; there are masses of justification for Exarch wargear which we (myself and others) have been over already, however I see little justification for MORE (there's already several Autarch-only pieces of equipment) Autarch-only gear outside of conservation; furthermore it would add a lot of entries that can only be used by one model in the entire army.

Okay, this make little sense for me. In the recent xeno dexes, there are a lot of unique wargear that is available for only one character in the whole army. The Dark Eldar codex has a full page of nastyness for the Haemonculi. The Necron 'dex has two pages worth of Cryptek-only wargear. Even the GK codex is full with such stuff (like inquisitor-specific wargear)...

Oh, and about the Guardian 4+ saves: i guess he mentioned this with Storm Guardians, and that with a 4+ armour save, mechanized Storm Guardians become a very solid choice.

On the Shining Spears. If they are moved towards MC-hunters, a fly-by makes sense. If they can only make a single high strength armour negating attack each, this limits their optimal target - additionally we know that Eldar and Dark Eldar will share a lot of abilities, although not as many as to make them codex-copy-paste a'la Marines. Keeping the attack at S6 (maybe even "hits top" aka hits side armour) would prevent them from hunting vehicles.

Crypteks have a major spot in the codex. An Autarch may, in the fluff, have access to a significant portion of the Eldar's exotic armoury, but on the table it's the Farseers and Warlocks that're the main characters.
Now, as far as the fluff goes, Exarchs seem to pick their weapons from the same armoury. The true difference is that the Autarch has a choice of weapons for each battle - Exarchs typically stick with their weapons for a few millenia until they are finally killed permanently (and I don't mean being beaten in battle here).
This leads to an interesting situation. Exarchs could conceivably have vastly different weapons within the same aspect, but the prospect of adapting weapons to the situation would be slim (although it's conceivable the craftworld would instead send warriors from a different shrine to better suit the needs for the intended target).