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On the topic of Saim-Hann, I'm still missing more interesting under-slung upgrades for Guardians. Cannons are all fine and well, but I'm looking at the Webway Eldar codex and their bikes are more interesting in their customization.

I had considered more options for Guardian Jetbikes (and still may), such as Flamers, Fusion Guns, Laser Lances etc. but ultimately I decided against it as I felt many of these (such as Fusion Guns) would encourage an almost suicide-role, which is something I feel the Eldar should avoid when at all possible.
Maybe I'm deluding myself, and such a role cannot be avoided or should not be avoided, but I didn't want to endorse such gameplay with Eldar jetbikes...
I assume by Webway Eldar you mean Dark Eldar?

Yeah, honestly don't know why I wrote it like that...

Fusion guns are always going to be a bit iffy, but looking at how Dark Eldar guns are configured you have a longer ranged melta weapon with lower strength. Possibilities abound, haywire launcher? Straight up heavy weapon similar to Defender options (risks making Scatter Laser spam)?

The Jetbikes seem a bit weak for their points, though, since their gear essentially hasn't changed. Their main role remains last-turn objective grabbers.
The fact that there's no model in the 4th edition codex carrying catapults that are actually good is a good motivation for simply improving the catapult rather than individually each model.

Right, here is the 2nd in a series of posts I will make providing possible army lists (1750pts) with this Codex in order to demonstrate and explore possible builds and (hopefully) balance within the Codex, whilst hopefully keeping it near the top of proposed rules (92 comments, over 2500 views; really?! ).
Some of these lists will be designed to be flat-out competitive, others themed or both...

In at number two; a Deepstrike/Webway list.


HQ - Autarch - Master Strategist - Web Beacon, Warp Jump Generator, Firepike, Executioner, Solar Flare - 140pts

HQ - Autarch - Master Strategist - Warp Jump Generator, Firepike, Vibro-Spear, Solar Flare - 135pts


Elites - 5 Fire Dragons - Webway Translator - Exarch w/ Firepike - 115pts

Elites - 5 Fire Dragons - Webway Translator - Exarch w/ Firepike - 115pts

Elites - 5 Fire Dragons - Webway Translator - Exarch w/ Dragons Breath Flamer - 105pts


Troops - 8 Dire Avengers - Webway Translator - Exarch w/ Diresword, Shuriken Pistol & Bladestorm - 138pts

Troops - 8 Dire Avengers - Webway Translator - Exarch w/ Twin Avenger Shuriken Catapults & Bladestorm - 133pts

Troops - 5 Rangers - Star Rifle, Pathfinder - 130pts

Troops - 5 Rangers - Star Rifle, Pathfinder - 130pts

Troops - 5 Rangers - Star Rifle - 105pts


Fast Attack - 6 Warp Spiders - Exarch w/ Power Blades & Exarch Twin Death Spinners - 161pts

Fast Attack - 6 Warp Spiders - Exarch w/ Power Blades & Exarch Twin Death Spinners - 161pts


Heavy Support - 2 Support Weapon Platforms - 2x Nova Lance - 90pts

Heavy Support - 2 Support Weapon Platforms - 2x Nova Lance - 90pts


Total: 1748pts

Looks like a pretty funky army to me. No vehicles, 5 scoring units, 14 Kill Points.
The Support Platforms and Rangers would start on the board, hopefully popping some vehicles (Sun Rifles & Lances) and generally hindering the enemy until the goodies show up.
The Autarchs can manipulate reserves until ready, then the Deepstrike Units can arrive around the Rangers (without scatter; Web Beacons) and be unleashed upon the enemy; the Autarchs and Warpspiders or Fire Dragons handling serious threats, whilst the former and Dire Avengers go after infantry (though the Autarchs have firepikes for flexibility) and the latter handle tanks.
Doesn't look too bad to me, but I think there's a good chance it's too gimmicky to be too competitive however.

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Writing this up did illuminate me to a couple of mistakes within the 'dex; namely some units (Vypers & HQ's) not having access to Webway gear. Obviously this will be updated in the next update, in the mean time I'm pondering Shuriken Catapults (Mahtamori)...

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As ever, all C&C is welcome. Please spread the word of this Codex or try out some army lists of your own!
Thanks, Dave.

I have decided that this will almost certainly be the last Fandex I make. With the low view-to-comment ratio, it's easy to get frustrated with a lack of feedback for something that so much work went into, although it is also fun making them...

In other news, the Shuriken Catapult will be getting changed. As it stands, it'll be getting changed to a 18", Strength 3, Armour Piercing 5, Assault 3 weapon.
Before people potentially scream of a nerf, I will interject that the only thing it is worse against is T5 and above targets and vehicles; both of whom were unlikely or unsuitable targets anyway.
In exchange, a Shuriken Catapult would be better against GeQ, equal against Space Marines and have greater range.
This means that the Shuriken Cannon will be further diversified as a result of its Str4.
Another way this works is that it has always struck me as odd how a weapon that ultimately fires discs is as powerful as a mini-grenade-launcher (read, Boltgun). The Shuriken Catapults main advantage should now be it's RoF as the fluff suggests.
A fairly controversial change, I admit, but I think it makes sense. What this means for the Avenger Shuriken Catapult or Lasblaster I haven't decided yet...
*Maths calculated with Heresy Combat Calculator*

In other, other, news, here's my 3rd list, Elfzilla:

HQ - Avatar of Khaine - 220pts


Elites - 5 Wraithguard - 5 Wraithcannons - Spiritseer w/ Singing Spear & Expedite - 233pts


Troops - 10 Wraithguard - 8 Wraithcannons, 2 Wraithswords - Iyanna Arienal - 485pts
- Althenian Fireblade - 150pts

Troops - 10 Eldar Guardians (Defender) - Bright Lance - 95pts

Troops - 10 Eldar Guardians (Defender) - Bright Lance - 95pts


Heavy Support - Wraithlord - 2x Flamer, Nova Lance - 140pts

Heavy Support - Wraithlord - Bright Lance, Eldar Missile Launcher - 165pts

Heavy Support - Wraithlord - Bright Lance, Eldar Missile Launcher - 165pts

Total: 1748pts

So the classic Elfzilla. Pretty one-dimensional; slow, short-ranged, low on numbers, but really frickin' tough. With 5 monstrous creatures and 15 Wraithguard it's a tough cookie to put down, simple as that.

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As ever all feedback is welcome. Thanks, Dave.

Yo if you use vassal at all, seriously hit me up most mornings PST after 7amish, or all next week past 5pm. I'll throw together a bunch of lists, from nids to guard to marines, and we can get some serious playtesting in. Everything I've played and seen of your dex has been nothing but fancy goodiness in my opinion.

I know it can be annoying when the feedback dries up, but tbh I think a simple list of additions/alterations would work wonders. Even after reading the OP I wasn't really sure what (other than point costs perhaps) had actually been changed. Granted, I don't play Eldar, but making things a little clearer would help a lot.

Not trying to nitpick, just saying. You obviously put a lot of effort into this.

I have decided that this will almost certainly be the last Fandex I make. With the low view-to-comment ratio, it's easy to get frustrated with a lack of feedback for something that so much work went into, although it is also fun making them...

Im not quite sure what you are looking for JD. Seems a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If I recall your Chaos Dex had over 25 pages?
The Eldar one has 4.

However, and this is the salient point, whilst the work gone into the Eldar one was great, the Eldar themselves didnt need a huge rewrite, their army despite being well "out of date" is still fun to play with, semi competitive and has several builds that are playable.
Chaos had none of those features and was not just out of date it was pretty much defunct.

As a result you had 3 factors coming into play:
1. A much larger fanbase for the Chaos codex all of whom had a vested and passionate interest in it
2. A Codex that was functional and hence didnt need as many tweaks, meaning not as many people had an interest or could see the benefits (Eldar)
3. The ratio of Chaos players (old and new) to Eldar in general

That inevitable has led to the lack of excitment and feedback around the Codex.

In addition to that there is the immenent release of 6th edition. I acknowledge we've dicsussed this previously but for me I am quite worried about how relevant his Codex will be come 6th and the proposed changes I've seen. Reviewing, critiquing and commenting on a Codex takes quite a lot of time and you have to be focused and ready to look at all angles of it. For some people I have no doubt its a case of "its a lot of work to feedback on this Codex when it'll be defunct with 6th". Whether it actually becomes defunct or not is another argument but I'll wager that mental effort is being directed more towards the 6th ed rumour threads then here unfortunately.

Added to that is the fact that the Codex seems to be pretty much finished from what I can tell , needing only minor tweaks so obviously comments are going to dry up. Thats just the way threads naturally evolve.

I've seen batreps, proposed rules and generally interesting threads with literally 0 replies so I'd take your disappointment with a pinch of salt and hopefully some perspective.
You admit you enjoy writing the Codices and even if it hasnt got 25 pages of comments 4 is still quite good and I personally enjoyed the back and forth in thread and discussion

Take a break from writing and come back fresh is my advice. Perspective is everything.

I think another factor playing into it is that we've already had more than 200 pages of Eldar codex discussion, which inevitably died down when someone actually compiled a codex out of it :p

With the Eldar codex it is a matter of either updating it, which honestly GW could've done with a 3-4 page errata, or redesigning it. The latter will cause some upset since Eldar is a fairly well established army in how they are portrayed - even if the army's execution hardly represents their presentation, their units have a fairly set-in-stone kit of gear.
You can't just give Guardians some other weapon, even though the codex' internal balance needs it. It would be like giving Space Marines multilasers (*kicks a BL book under the table*).

So, the fandex went the update path. Least amount of kinks to work out, fewer ruffled feelings, less "but this unit is portrayed like this and not that".

Personally, I'd like to see a redefined Eldar codex. Less something-of-everything, more focused on being good in a certain area. Tau, for instance, do not have melee units as such. Eldar have melee, ranged, long range, jump, vehicles, monsters, etc etc. They are the most complete and diverse army out there, even more so than IG, and it is this that I'd like to see... go away.
What I'd like to see is remove Eldar long-range focus. In short, anti-tau (although still not a horde army).

I'm sorry to hear that this will likely be your last fandex Dave. You have done a great job with both of the ones you've done so far.

I would like to point out, however, that not having much feedback isn't always a bad thing. Think about how many kinks you had to work out of your chaos codex before you got things to where you feel it is "done" and compare it to the lack of rewrites you've had to do for the Eldar codex. With a few typos, and forgotten things here and there that you had to update, and tweaking of some other things, you pretty much hit the nail on the head in your first swing with this codex. All that's left, is playtesting.

With playtesting, comes its own difficulties. Someone earlier mentioned that they're gaming store had started to recognize and use your codex (I can't remember if it was just this one, just chaos, or both) as a standard for their respective armies. However, other people are having a hard time finding opponents to play against with the codex. As Eldar seems to have less of a fan base on this forum than chaos, you'll have less potential players. So this could be another contribution.

In short, don't lose hope Dave. Your dex (both of them) are awesome, and I, for one, am sad that I have yet to be able to even give the sucker(s) a try myself. :(

Hi!

After a big read, i say i generally like the codex. But just generally. There are some stuff that irks me:

- I'm not a big fan of the layout. It's a bit chaotic with all that special rules and wargears scattered in the codex.
- Eldar Fleet is a bit messy. If you ask me, it should give a fix 6" run instead of Assault phase movement.
- This new Wraithsight gives a huuuuge boost to Wraith constructs. Outside of close-combat, this special rule is completely negligible.
- The Phoenix Reborn special rule is a bit odd. I mean, what is its point? And isn't it a bit unfluffy?
- I think the Farseer is completely unfluffy. The OPest psyker of the craftworld and has one psychic ability? Srsly? It should take any number of powers. The first is free, any other is 10 pts per power or so.
- Not a fan of the "Exarch weapons for the Autarch!" movement. Exarch weapons should be weapons of the Exarches. And as far as i know, Autarch are not Exarches, and they never were.
- I think the compulsory Exarch for the aspect warriors is needless.
- Uhhh... The Harlequins are different from the Harlequins in the DE codex...
- Rangers are slightly underpriced with their built-in Pathfinder upgrade. It is used to be a 5 ppm upgrade...
- I guess you should meld the Support weapons into the Guardian Defender weapon options. Just for simplicity's sake.
- The Wraithlord is now completely OP. T8, W4 and 115 points? Is that a Carnifex crying in the corner?
- And what's happend with the Shuriken Cannon? Why S4? -2 Strength and +3 RoF is hardly a fair trade.
- Bright lances are badly overcosted. Should be 15 points or 20 at maximum.
- Oh, and i'm a big fan of Heavy 3 Star Cannons. Heavy 2 is a bit... insufficent.

AtoMaki wrote:Hi!

After a big read, i say i generally like the codex. But just generally. There are some stuff that irks me:

- I'm not a big fan of the layout. It's a bit chaotic with all that special rules and wargears scattered in the codex.
- Eldar Fleet is a bit messy. If you ask me, it should give a fix 6" run instead of Assault phase movement.
- This new Wraithsight gives a huuuuge boost to Wraith constructs. Outside of close-combat, this special rule is completely negligible.
- The Phoenix Reborn special rule is a bit odd. I mean, what is its point? And isn't it a bit unfluffy?
- I think the Farseer is completely unfluffy. The OPest psyker of the craftworld and has one psychic ability? Srsly? It should take any number of powers. The first is free, any other is 10 pts per power or so.
- Not a fan of the "Exarch weapons for the Autarch!" movement. Exarch weapons should be weapons of the Exarches. And as far as i know, Autarch are not Exarches, and they never were.
- I think the compulsory Exarch for the aspect warriors is needless.
- Uhhh... The Harlequins are different from the Harlequins in the DE codex...
- Rangers are slightly underpriced with their built-in Pathfinder upgrade. It is used to be a 5 ppm upgrade...
- I guess you should meld the Support weapons into the Guardian Defender weapon options. Just for simplicity's sake.
- The Wraithlord is now completely OP. T8, W4 and 115 points? Is that a Carnifex crying in the corner?
- And what's happend with the Shuriken Cannon? Why S4? -2 Strength and +3 RoF is hardly a fair trade.
- Bright lances are badly overcosted. Should be 15 points or 20 at maximum.
- Oh, and i'm a big fan of Heavy 3 Star Cannons. Heavy 2 is a bit... insufficent.

Some of your pointsdon't make sense to me. I'll address them, and Dave can sort through it

- Phoenix reborn is actually the most fluffy way to represent the phoenix lords.
- Autarchs may not have Exarch weapons in the fluff, but they usually carry the best of the best weapons the craftworld has to offer (Or so it would seem from what I've read in the newest BL eldar books) It would make sense to me that instead of adding a bunch of unique weapons that this one character can use, you just allow access to exarch weapons. As these weapons would follow a similar structure, with only slight differences in the story anyways, I see no problem with it on the table top.
- Exarchs should be compulsory. An aspect shrine doesn't usually go to war without their exarch. So why would they on a tabletop? How many space marine companies do you see without their sergeant? Not too many, I'd imagine.
- Harlequin's aren't the same as the Dark Eldar book!? Oh noez! Personally, I think they should have been changed in the dark eldar book, and one of these days, harlequins WILL change, and guess what... you guessed it, they will change in either D.Eldar or C:Eldar first before the other is errata'd. I don't see the problem with the change.
- Rangers underpriced? Yeah, they are cheaper then what we have now, but they aren't exactly great at their current price right now, are they? (And if you are one of the people that think they are, I don't want to have that argument in this thread, as it would horribly derail things, so PM me and we'll discuss it. Who knows, we might change one another's minds)
- Wraithlords are a gimmick right now. For 90 points (Oh yeah, they're cheaper right now... or did you forget that?) they are T8, with 3 wounds. A missile launcher, meltagun, hell, any anti-tank weapon that are overly abundant these days, take these things down without a problem. For a 25 point upgrade, they got upgraded, and made a little better. Who knows, maybe now they would be considered tournament level, as opposed to friendly? As to the carnifex comment, of course it's crying, it's a terrible unit that shouldn't see the table in the current edition. I hope the wraithlord is never reduced to that level of unplayability.
- I was a bit confused about the cannon change myself, but after looking things over, I'm for it. Eldar have a great deal of S6 firepower. Another one, isn't too useful. However, giving your tanks an underslug cannon (Which is now a defensive weapon with a high rate of fire) is now a good option. Means I can slap on my typical scatter laser, upgrade to the cannon from the catapult, and still move my 12" giving me decent anti tank (from the scatter) and great anti infantry (From the high RoF from both weapons). Truly Eldar to make tanks so versatile.


However, Dave, there are a few points I do agree with, and since someone brought them up, I will bring them up again, as they are just what I mentioned before
- Farseer's should be stronger psychically. Honestly, with the introduction of Grey Knight Librarians (Who naturally cast 2, and can upgrade to cast 3 psychic powers) I wouldn't be too shocked to see it standard for Farseer's to cast 3 abilities, and warlocks to cast 1 (with an upgrade option to 2). This would stay with the fluff, as by the time they have become a farseer, they would have mastered many different runes, as has been shown by the books. You could make it less powerful, and say that they can't cast the same power twice, or something along those lines to balance it. (That said, something would need to change to Eldrad, to make him more unique.)
- Bright lances need a point reduction. They are completely off the charts! Dark Eldar get their lances for what? 10 points on their tanks? Most even come standard? I'm not asking for that level, as they are the lance masters, but a little leway should be given, I think.

Guess there were only two... Ah well.

Anyways, sorry if it came off a bit snippy. It wasn't intended to be (But on the re-read it sounds that way to me, and I'm the one who wrote it!) so I wanted to let everyone know, it's not meant that way, so please don't take it that way!

Sloooooow response to AtoMaki:
- The layout is less spread out than in the GW codexes. Wargear and abilities is gathered in one place, and only ever placed with the units if the wargear or ability is unique to that ability. In GW codexes you may have to look up unit X AND Y in order to get the wargear for units A B and C.
- Wraithsight isn't that much different. It just doesn't kill you off if you fail it.
- Phoenix Reborn is taken from Path of the Warrior, where Karandras absorbs the body of an Exarch in order to be reborn
- I'll agree on the low amount of initial psychic powers considering that the considerably less knowledgeable librarians start with two.
- In truth, Autarchs have their own weapons which are at least on par with exarchs'.
- Mandatory squad leaders follow examples set in all other codexes.
- Harlequins in DE codex are 4th edition Harlequins, not 5th.
- Old costs have no bearing what so ever on new ones. Just because Ranger upgrades used to be 5 ppm doesn't mean it's worth it. Same goes for Bright Lance, but the other direction.
- It is interesting you compare the Wraithlord to the Carnifex, a model which has seen it's glory days pass and is in decline. Currently the Wraithlord is good, but only situationally point effective.
- Do the math on the Shuriken Cannon, or look up my post earlier in the thread. It's actually a damage improvement against all infantry - PLUS it is a defensive weapon now! Downside is that it's not able to damage vehicles.
- I tend to agree on the Bright Lance. It is a Missile Launcher without Frag, but with Lance - meaning it's the same against AV10-12, better against AV13-14, and significantly worse against infantry of all sorts except TEQ. It shouldn't cost more than the Missile Launcher, maybe not necessarily less, but definitely not more.

Star Cannon.
I tend to agree. At 25 points, the Star Cannon offer no significant improvement over the Scatter Laser at killing marines in cover, no improvement other than cost compared to the current Star Cannon at killing them outside of cover, it's improved ability to damage vehicles is only marginally better than a missile launcher or scatter laser on AV12 and worse on lower AV compared to the Scatter Laser.
The Missile Launcher is in general a better option since it is decent against vehicles and good against infantry which don't conga line.
The Scatter Laser is still better in most situations.

Edited for clarity: it wasn't a quick response

Mahtamori wrote:- Wraithsight isn't that much different. It just doesn't kill you off if you fail it.

Yeah, and that little change actually made it totally worthless. If you have a shooting wraith construct unit then you can now ignore it completely. Even in close-combat, WS1 and I1 isn't that big disaster.

Mahtamori wrote:- Phoenix Reborn is taken from Path of the Warrior, where Karandras absorbs the body of an Exarch in order to be reborn

i still don't think that it should happen instanty. I mean, the transformation should take up some time...

Mahtamori wrote:- In truth, Autarchs have their own weapons which are at least on par with exarchs'.

Then give them their own weapons...

Mahtamori wrote:- Harlequins in DE codex are 4th edition Harlequins, not 5th.

But the DE codex is 5th ed. So i guess it makes the Harlies in it 5th ed too...

Mahtamori wrote:- Old costs have no bearing what so ever on new ones. Just because Ranger upgrades used to be 5 ppm doesn't mean it's worth it.

But it is worth it. Super-stealth and super-rending for 5 points? When normal stealth is 2 ppm and normal rending is 5?

Mahtamori wrote:- It is interesting you compare the Wraithlord to the Carnifex, a model which has seen it's glory days pass and is in decline. Currently the Wraithlord is good, but only situationally point effective.

I 've just threw in the 'fex for a random example. My real point was that +1 W and the toned down Wraithsight worth more, than a simple +15 points.

Mahtamori wrote:- Do the math on the Shuriken Cannon, or look up my post earlier in the thread. It's actually a damage improvement against all infantry - PLUS it is a defensive weapon now! Downside is that it's not able to damage vehicles.

And it can't ID multi-wound T3 models.

Wraithsight: the only change is that they may make an attack at abysmal WS, otherwise it is unchanged.
Regarding the rule itself, to each their own. I strongly dislike Wraithsight since it makes too much rely on random numbers of the dice.

Phoenix Reborn: I understand where you're coming from. I don't agree, but I fully understand

Autarch weapons: fair point, but that would also require a significant amount of pages simply to make Executioner-with-a-different-name etc.
Autarch weapons are of the same calibre as Exarch or Phoenix Lord, by the way, sometimes being as old or older than the craftworlds themselves, forged long before the breaking.

Harlequins: and yet they aren't very useful in either codex, costed to an edition where they could assault out of a covered vehicle and where rending was deadly.
They badly need an update, so why not give it to them?

Rangers: Oh, the upgrade to Pathfinder is worth 5 ppm, but the Rangers themselves aren't worth the points. It's not horribly off the way it is for the entire Fast Attack section, but it's still worth altering.

Wraithlord: But where we disagree is that the Wraithlord does his job. With stupidity rule it gets even worse.

Shuriken Cannon: old cannon would cause 2,5 wounds on them, new cannon would cause 4 wounds. The difference there is marginal, for a weapon which is essentially free, it's bloody excellent.

Thanks for the responses and kind words guys, I appreciate it. I think I have a better idea of what I'll do, but as Ratius suggested, I'm going to take a few days off as it were. I'll post infrequently - e.g. now - but feel free to post and create army lists/feedback or whatnot in my absence.
Again, thanks guys. Some great advice and definitely something for me to think about.

Thanks for the feedback Ato'. While I don't agree with it in many cases, I do genuinely appreciate the feedback. I'll point out my justification for it:

As Mahtamori said, the layout is much more condensed than GW Codices. Whilst this means that each unit has their own page (making the army list section longer), unit-specific wargear or rules are located on their page, whilst other stuff is at the back. In the Eldar Codex you have to go back and forth comparing rules to prices etc.

A fixed 6" run gives all Eldar with fleet (so, the vast majority) a 18" assault range. That's huge. As it is, Eldar fleet has potential to be teetering on overpower, but it doesn't increase their assault or weapons range, it makes them more agile and more adept at hit-and-run tactics and keeping out of harms reach; as Eldar really should be. The 2D6 is to provide balance.

As Maht' said, the only change is they can actually strike in assault now. At WS1, In1 (woo). Contrary to what you seem to be saying, Wraithsight is even worse outside of close combat as your primarly shooty unit cannot fire their deadly weapon, nor move. I have - and still am - considered making Wraithsight occur 1/3 or 1/2 without a psyker nearby, to give it greater influence on gameplay, but that doesn't really relate to your points. Ultimately, it's the same as it was before, except now they aren't completely useless in close combat (what they really sit their letting themselves get hit, even if disorientated?!)

As stated by Amanax and Maht', Phoenix Reborn fits in perfectly with the fluff of the Phoenix Lords. As for it not happening instantly, it does in the novel and compare it to Thawn.

Farseer: Seriously. What's different to how they are at the moment? Their psychic powers are better. How good are Farseers at the moment? Very. How good are Grey Knight Librarians? Very. They can still cast as many abilities as before, or even better with Runes and better powers, just now they can't select loads. And I don't recall anyone selecting more than 2 for their Farseers before. I may change it to be in-line with Grey Knights, as suggested by others and yourself, but as it stands, I don't see it as a problem, but I do admit it could be improved.

There are several Autarch-unique weapons and pieces of wargear (the former of which are, as Maht' said "at least on par with exarchs"). Trying to conjour twice that many would be difficult, particularly without recycling the abilities of Exarch-weapons. You're right, they're not Exarchs, but I think it would make sense for them to have the best weapons in the craftworld, or to be gifted weapons from shrines, to use weapons from currently dormant shrines or to wield weapons of similar characteristic to those of an Exarch. There's many ways you can swing it to make sense in the fluff, whilst as it stands it at least makes sense in-game.

As stated; mandatory Exarchs make sense in fluff and in-game. Furthermore, it reduces potential for squads to be used for suicide-roles

As Amanax stated; Harlequins are going to have to change at some point. When designing a Codex you cannot really afford to be resistant to change. As stated by Amanax and Maht', Harlequins aren't a terribly good unit atm. When was the list time you saw a DE list include Harlequins? Let alone Harlequins for a role more than just delivering a WWP.

The point on the Rangers seems to suggest they're a good choice at the moment? They are still T3, 5+ models for 19pts and they still have 3 distinct weaknesses: Templates, Combat and Damage-Output.

I don't see how it makes sense to render the Guardians as no more than additional wounds for the Support Weapon; as someone stated, now Support Weapons can be taken without crippling your Heavy Support section or list in general. I personally prefer the existing solution of the "simple" solution; the latter isn't needed when the former is already introduced. Maybe if someone else wrote the Codex and didn't include the solution that I tried to...

I think the Carnifex is crying in the corner as a result of his own issues. Requiring 8 Frag Missiles to put down is not OP. The Dreadknight is just as tough, if not tougher, but has a larger model and superior combat abilities and movement.
However, The Wraithlord had already been increased in points, but that PDF hasn't been uploaded until I decide what to do with the Shuriken Catapults etc.

As others have stated, they and I believe the Shuriken Cannon to be a fair trade. Doubling the rate of fire and making it defensive has made it widely usable on vehicles and better against ALL types of standard infantry (Guard, Orks, Necrons, Space Marines, Gaunts). As for multiple-wound T3 models? How many of these are there? GeQ and Eldar HQ's and Swarms are all that spring to mind. The former either have a save that will render a single Str6 shot useless or are hidden in squads that don't care, the latter is taken care of by the multitude of other Str6 weapons or the significantly increased damage output.

Bright Lances are in a similar price bracket to Lascannons; short of the rare Nova Lance, Bright Lances are arguably the best anti-tank in the Eldar Codex, even at their points they are good choices and less than they are in the existing Eldar Codex.

The Starcannon had been placed at the same points as the Scatter Laser in the latest PDF, which again, isn't up yet. It's more akin to an Autocannon (a very good weapon), but with AP2. It's a rapid-firing Plasma Gun, with triple range and no gets-hot. A Scatter Laser (now the same pts as a Starcannon) is around 15pts usually, a competively priced Plasma Gun is 10. Which is better? A Falcon with it will put out 4 AP2 shots at high strength and be able to move (and you could add the defensive Shuriken Cannon). Or it could AP1 with the Power Diversion Matrix. Or it can target side armour thanks to the Eldar speed. Tactically, it provides a lot of options whilst also displaying Technological Superiority over Tau and IoM.

I admit, my response was a bit more... 'clipped' than my usual polite self, but do unto others and all that...

Thanks for responding with justification Maht' and Amanax; that was really nice to see and I do appreciate it A LOT! You're welcome to do so more often btw.

As I said, I will largely be taking a break for a bit and thinking about things in general and working on the next update. Thanks guys!

P.S. Could someone list the existing (official) Codex's units in 5 tiers please? Tier 1 being really competitive and good options in a 5th Ed. Codex (e.g. Farseer), Tier 2 being good but flawed, 3 being average, 4 being weak/poor and 5 being near-worthless (e.g. Hawks).
That way I can compare where I've made changes and why etc. compared to peoples opinions on the existing Codex. It'll make sense when you see it...
Thanks again.

T1: Autarchs, Farseers and Warlocks, Fire Dragons, Warwalkers, Eldrad
T2: Dire Avengers, Vypers, Wave Serpents, Scorpions
T3: Wraithlords, Fire Prisms, Falcons, Dark Reapers
T4: Shining Spears, all Guardians, banshees, Harlies, Rangers
T5: Hawks, phoenix lords

T1: Farseer, Eldrad, Fire Dragons, War Walkers, Fire Prisms, Yriel, Warlocks.
T2: Autarch, Avatar, Dire Avengers, Rangers, Nightspinner, Wave Serpent, <buffing/debuffing psychic powers>
T3: Wraithlord, Vypers, Warp Spiders, Falcon, Storm Guardian, Jetbike Guardian
T4: Support weapon, Defender Guardian, Dark Reaper, Harlequin, Umm... Fire Dragon Phoenix Lord (in larger battles such as apocalypse), support weapons.
T5: <offensive psychic powers>, Swooping Hawks, the other Phoenix Lords
T6: Baharroth
Probably missed something. Tempted to put Vypers further down, but...

Wraithsight: if Wraithsight is meant to be debilitating, why not make it punishing if there aren't a psycher nearby. What I mean is: the model is treated as if having WS/BS/I at 1 and treats all terrain as difficult if there are no psycher within 6" at the start of the phase (note: phase, and not turn).
Sure, you can shoot and you can move and you aren't auto-hit, but you don't have any chance at all of avoiding it if out of range.

I personally lovevypers for their harrassability and battlefield control

For me they just blow up (maybe I should stop blowing up poorly painted & maintained models from 10+ years ago when I started the hobby, though...). In all fairness, I just can't get expensive models that die to bolter fire to work in my gaming group.

LOL gus, wait a minute, i have an EPIK fail on my part, because i skip the first sentence of Wraithsight with all the no move/shoot/assault thing ... Doh, now my problems with the Wraithsight and the Wraithlord are non-existant. Sorry...

Well, maybe i missed something, but i cannot see the "solution" for Support Weapons. They are still super-duper-fragile artilelry units that are also totally lacks any kind of mobility.

Oh, and one more thing. I did a little creative works, and "invented" some Autarch weapons instead of the Exarch weapons:

Ghostblaster (replaces Dragon's Breath Flamer):
Range Strength AP Type
Template 10 4 Assault 1, Pinning
To-wound rolls are against Leadership instead of Toughness.

Voidbeam (replaces Triskele):
Range Strength AP Type
12” 5 2 Assault 1
For each wound the weapon causes roll for an additional hit.

Solar Cascade (replaces Fire Pike):
Range Strength AP Type
24” 6 1 Assault 1, Lance, Melta

Chronosabre (replaces Bitting Blade):
Normal close-combat weapon. When the Autarch fights with a chronosabre, he gains 2D6 attacks instead of his normal number of attacks (bonuses from charging and two ccw-s apply). To-wound rolls of 6 ignore armour saves.

Tempest Gauntlets (replaces Diresword):
A pair of power fists that hits at Strength 8 instead of 6 and roll 2D6 for armour penetration.

Windsword (replaces Broadblades):
Power weapon that allows to re-roll all failed to-hits and to-wounds.

Surge Glaive (replaces Executioner):
Two-handed power weapon that gives +D3 Strength and has a Thunder Hammer like side effect (I1 for survivors and auto-Shaken for vehicles).

Fire Veil (replaces Shimmershield)l:
Reduces the Strength of incoming attacks by 1. Works for both shooting and cc. Affects the squad of the Autarch.

The names are silly and the points costs should change. But it is just an intention to help .

Yup, the move from static zero-level to 1s with prohibition took two reads for me to spot as well. Difficult when you expect something and find something else

The big problem with Autarch is that, contrary to most other codexes, you don't get two or three levels of command staff character. You don't get a Lann Caihe on the ground.
You don't have a Captain, Chapter Master and Chaplain sharing the same upgrades, so it doesn't make sense making a longer specific list for just one model - at the same time, the standard kit of the Autarch is well developed and there's not a lot of room for improvement on miscellaneous items such as armour.

What it all boils down to, I think, is the fluff. Autarch weapons are the best the craftworld armoury can offer, while Exarch weapons are the personal weapons of each Exarch.
Changing the fluff to describe how the Exarchs and Autarch operate, train, and equip themselves would solve this - the weapons the Exarch carry is the same he has carried for many hundreds of years, and no two Banshee Exarchs carry similar weapons. It is game terms their weapons may be Executioners, but outside there'd be differences. Different names, slightly different curving of the blades, there may even be functional differences which may not matter on the table - one Exarch may even have his Executioner (yes, they may be male) be able to separate the blades.

So no, an Autarch wouldn't use Exarch weapons, but he's using weapons which are functionally the same. (Even though in some cases the Autarchs may get their hands on weapons not really meant to be used - see Yriel)

Support platforms: I think leaving them defunct or merging them into Guardian Defenders is the only way to go. It's a matter of edition rules, and compensating for the poor rules for artillery makes little sense.
It would be interesting to see them as a normal platform in Defender squad, although with the exception of not counting the weapon as assault - i.e. force them to remain stationary.

Mahtamori wrote:
You don't have a Captain, Chapter Master and Chaplain sharing the same upgrades, so it doesn't make sense making a longer specific list for just one model - at the same time, the standard kit of the Autarch is well developed and there's not a lot of room for improvement on miscellaneous items such as armour.

Well, it isn't without example that a codex cannot include lots of one-shot items. Like Haemoncolus arcane wargear. Giving a character some unique items isn't a loathsome idea. It gives the character... uhm... character and many cool converting/personalizing options to the player. And nobody forces noone that the Autarch should use re-named Exarch weapons. He should just use Autarch weapons that replace the much-needed Exarch weapons (like the ones i proposed).

No guarantees or anything, mind...

Interesting, another codex that's mostly updates, and in this case even more so than with Eldar. Fewer units in dire need, more of the "doesn't work well within the codex itself, but good otherwise" type of units.

I dunno, there's a lot of work that needs to go into the Space Marine Codex, particularly on the whole chapter-customisation side. It may require even more work than the Eldar...
... Still less than Chaos though.

Either way, I'm going to take it at my own pace rather than 'rush' to get it released, so I'm going to consciously be less caring for feedback and just enjoy the process of making it.

I hope you have a great time with Space Marines. I know no matter what you come up with, you won't let the community down, your fandexs are FAR to high quality for that.

Latest Version of the Codex is up.

- Have changed Shuriken Catapults to generally Str3, AP5, Assault 3, 18".
- Have changed Lasblasters to Assault 2, AP3.
- Have changed Avenger Shuriken Catapults to AP4 and granted Mind Link.
- Have made Mind Link available to Autarchs.
- Farseers can select any number of additional psychic powers.
- Starcannons same price as Scatter Lasers.
- Wraithlords more expensive.
Maybe some other things too, I can't quite remember.

------------


Also, here I will list the units in the existing Codex according to their competitiveness and sum up the changes made to them, in order to compare the existing opinions on units to the basic changes made.
Units are rated out of tier 1-5, with tier 1 representing really competitive and good options in a 5th Ed. Codex (e.g. Farseer), Tier 2 being good but flawed, 3 being average, 4 being weak/poor and 5 being near-worthless (e.g. Hawks).
From left-to-right in brackets, the tier ratings are by 'chrisrawr', 'Mahtamori' and myself. Providing they remembered the unit!

Farseer (1,1,1) - Increased base cost to represent incorporated psychic power, more wargear & powers also available, but not free.
Warlocks (1,1,2) - Increased base cost to represent incorporated psychic power, has +1A and Ld, more options, but not for free.
Autarchs (1,2,2) - Same base price, Master Strategist improved, more options all-round, but not for free. Should be viable alternative to a Farseer.
Avatar (_,2,2) - Dramatically increased base cost, but dramatically increased abilities. Now should be capable against the best in any army and not reliant on a Farseer/Fortune.
Phoenix Lords (5,5,5) - Reduced cost, reduced armour save but 4+ inv. as standard, better weapons, can return to game, only occupy 1 FoC, better benefits to Aspect Warriors.
Eldrad (1,1,1) - 10pts point increase, Runes as standard, more powers, better divination, lost T4.
Yriel (_,1,3) - increased pts cost, better force-multiplier, increased damage output, better save, reduced eye-of-wrath template-size.

Striking Scorpions (2,_,3) - Infiltrate, Move-through-cover & fleet as standard.
Howling Bansheers (_,_,2) - Increased hitting power against MeQ without out-classing Scorpions at anti-infantry, increased manoeuvrability, can (semi-reliably) assault from transport with exarch power.
Fire Dragons (1,1,1) - No changes, however Exarch as mandatory increases base cost, reduces desire-to-suicide, can be changed to anti-infantry.
Wraithguard (_,_,3-4) - Increased base cost to include changes of increased durability (but can be ID'ed by Str10), increased range and AP1, and can be equipped for CC.
Harlequins (4,4,3) - 1pts increase, increased movement, increased inv. save in CC, grenade-equivalent as standard, damages enemy leadership, more options.

Dire Avengers (2,3,2) - 1pts decrease, improved overall damage-output, reduce enemy coversaves, 2x CCW as standard.
Rangers (4,2,4) - Point decrease, Pathfinder-stealth as standard, increased damage output, free web beacon.
Storm Guardians (4,3,3) - Point decrease, more viable close-combat options, grenades as standard.
Defender Guardians (4,4,3) - Point decrease, increased damage output, grenades, reduced cost of heavy weapon.
Jetbikes (4,3,4) - Point decrease, increased damage output, scouts special rule.

Waveserpent (2,2,1) - 5pts point saving on Shuriken Cannon as standard, options cost decreased.

Shining Spears (4,_,4) - Hefty point decrease, increased damage output on charge and at range. Still vulnerable to pro-longed combat.
Warp Spiders (_,3,3) - Minor point decrease, reduced damage output vs. vehicles, increased vs. infantry, more reliable JSJ, inflict difficult terrain-movement.
Swooping Hawks (5,5,5) - Reduced cost, increased RoF, decreased range, AP3, can skyleap reliably and multiple times. Good for hit-and-run, vulnerable to straight-up-fights.
Vypers (2,3,4) - Increased cost to incorporate JSJ ability and incorporated weapon, weapon & upgrades cheaper.

Support Weapons (_4,4) - No pts change, better weapons, more durable, less hindrance on FoC, 4+ cover save as standard.
Dark Reapers (3,4,4) - Hefty pts decrease, better weapons, negates cover effectiveness.
Wraithlord (3,3,3) - Point increase, tougher, better & more options.
War Walkers (1,1,2) - Decreased upgrade & weapon cost.
Fire Prism (1,3,1) - 5pts increase, better against vehicles, less-reliant on joint-shot.
Falcon (3,3,3) - Point increase, BS4 as standard, decreased weapon cost, better for move-and-shoot, so can transport and provide firepower effectively, 1 can be taken as dedicated transport.

Lord Magnus wrote:I hope you have a great time with Space Marines. I know no matter what you come up with, you won't let the community down, your fandexs are FAR to high quality for that.

I'll pay you later, thanks.

Let's see.

Codex Catapults.
GEQ. 2 chances of 1/2 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/1 pierce. 55,6% chance to score at least one kill.
MEQ. 2 chances of 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 pierce. 16,0% chance to score at least one kill

Dave Catapults.
GEQ. 3 chances of 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/1 pierce. Average 4,5 killed per 6 models shooting. 57,8% chance to score at least one kill
MEQ. 3 chances of 1/2 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/3 pierce. 15.8% chance to score at least one kill.

Conclusion: While the expected outcome is only marginally better, the real difference is the variation in outcome (which will tend to slightly better results) and above all the range.
With 18" range the models do have a chance to do something before they are locked in close combat, but it is above all an upgrade for vehicles where the catapults were often something you could be excused forgetting.

Regarding the Lasblaster change - very neatly done, sir. Differentiating Hawks and Spiders just like that.

Like the new catapults.