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I posted my list in Army Lists and will be willing to answer questions

whigwam wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:What silly RAW? The whole point of the doom scythe is that it has the power to do something like that - I don't see how you can argue that it only works if you play 'silly RAW'. Whether it's OP or not is a fair debate but there's nothing ambiguous in the rules that suggests the way it's written isn't what was intended imo.

Are you trying to claim Death Ray hits every model in every unit the line crosses over? I didn't think there was anyone still arguing this interpretation. If so, good luck with that...

Upon re-reading it, I can see that it actually means the number of individual models under the line - I was just recalling it from memory when I questioned the 'silly RAW' thing. Now I feel kind of sad that I wasn't as on the ball as you, Whig - at least you've got your finger on the pulse. What a guy!

I..do what I can..

Smurfy wrote:Now, I didn't read the whole thread, but I've seen the battle report with Reece and now found this. Questions:

Both bunch up vs your army, which is built to tear down castles did you admit this yet in any of the posts or to them to help them out?

IE: Why did they bunch up when the Doom Scythes and massed combat units LOVE that?

Because I wanted to be able to get to the necron objectives as quickly as possible. That's why I deployed several of my paladins as far forwards as possbile. I was hoping the central terrain would give me cover on the left side against the death ray and on the right, I used my dread to give my paladins cover. Unfortunately, I miscalculated it and the doom scythe was able to get a shot at my paladins without cover.

Basically, I deployed aggressively and took the gamble that necron shooting wouldn't do too much to my paladins due to cover.

Why have 2 solar pulses? Your army is all close ranged stuff, and you only need 1 if you wanna deploy everything from the get go and prevent a IG Alpha Strike. Only reason I see the second one for is a probably silly attempt to guard the 5 man units in the back from being hit, but FYI: if your list is all about pressure, it should succeed in relieving those Warrior units of any fear of retaliation. I'm guessing that strategy isn't working well, so first signs the list needs work.

You're absolutely correct. I'm beginning to see that I don't really need 2 Solar Pulses. In all my games so far, I've made it into assault by Turn 2 and never really had to weather too much shooting (unless my wraiths wiped out the squad they charged). What the 2nd Solar Pulse does is mainly to discourage my opponent from shooting into my backfield at my warriors.

I am considering dropping the 2nd Pulse-tek for another wraith, though I do like having an additional lance-tek around.

Do you reserve 2 units of Warriors and stick 2 units with Pulses hopefully behind some BLOS and just, hope for the best? Is that right?

That depends. If it is multiple objectives, leaving 3 units in reserves mean that they may not make it to the objectives in time. Thus, I would leave 2 squads on the board and 2 in reserves. The warriors on the board (with the lance-teks) would start advancing towards the far objectives while the warriors coming in from reserves can claim the near objectives. With C&C, I will deploy 1 or 2 units of warriors depending on whether I think I need their help or not, and in Annihilation, I usually leave 3 squads of warriors in reserves.

I never "hope for the best" with my warriors. They are an integral part of my army that helps to force the opponent to make more difficult decisions - go after the easier-to-kill/easy-KP's warriors and let the rest of my army wreak havoc, or go after the rest of my army and let my warriors slowly swarm the objectives. There is a purpose for every unit in my list.

Now onto the list, which IMO is suck:

Anrakyr on Barge - Common combo I've seen, which falls to any paired up melta/blasterborn kind of threats out there. Yes, his range is 24" (24+18 if you want to go in for the vehicle possession; and assuming you've used your Tachyon Arrow first turn while your army moves into position, which most of the time I bet you do) Threat range of a Melta team is about 21" The enemy WILL get him. He loses his mobility, and can die easily once on foot, he's not that scary.

Regular Lord on Barge - So many upgrades when all I have to do is take him out of his chariot to lessen my worries about him? Thanks for pouring points into him!

Doom Scythes are fun, but not begin on the board kind of fun. With AV 11 all the enemy has to do is aim a smidge of Autocannons their way and they got them as they try to move in for the kill -- and with a threat range of ~30" (Death Ray) its not much more than anything else really, just the Death Ray is random range so that's in no way to be "reliable anti-tank" unless your enemies do exactly what they've done here and not deploy/set up well vs your army. Again - Derp Deployments IMO. I may be wrong somehow but I never found a reason to castle up against Doom Scythes which have anti-castling kind of weapon...And CC units to boot who will hit multiple units at once....sigh. The Tesla Destructor is fun, I give you that, but you're not buying Doom Scythes for that alone, otherwise you'd have 3 Night Scythes instead of 2 Doom Scythes, now wouldn't you?

Warriors not doing much of anything but 2 are babysitting Lances and Pulses. +1 for trying to help the army with Pulse/Lance -5 for having the rest of the squad useless.

The Wraith dilemma - I find Wraiths to suck because they are CC, against a MSU list this really shows - they get shot at a bit (not much cuz of your Solar pulses/doom scythes that need to go down first), hit some expendable units (woo I killed 5 marines/a rhino Ma!) and get torrented next round end of that fairy tale.

Scarabs are fun but die to the same kind of retaliation as Wraiths. Maybe worse, because you know, Tank Shock+Blast/Flamer templates roast swarms. (IG should be able to do this just fine) Counter-Chargers can also work if the unit is weakened. If someone shoots the Scarabs before they hit or in range of a true threat, TBF I think they need work on their tactics (My 4 base scarab unit sits in Cover, sees some Ordnance blast come their way, oh 4 saves...2+ Cover via Gone To Ground, I didn't need to do anything that turn ANYWAY /troll'd The moment the opponent stops putting quality firepower their way is the moment they get back up to 3+ Cover and charge next turn. Easy Scarabs Use 101 for ya.

And the Spyders, which are clearly there to bump up the Scarabs to "scary numbers" and hopefully use their MC status to clear midfield after the rest of the army already does most of the work. /yawn?

Just my 0.02

You are quite entitled to your opinion. On paper, the list may not seem so good to some (like you), but seeing it and playing against it when run by a competent general are 2 entirely different experiences altogether. Theoryhammer oftentimes extrapolates data in a vacuum (i.e. well unit A can be countered by unit B, etc.) and usually doesn't consider the synergy of the entire army on the whole. Of course each unit can easily be taken down if it was the only unit your opponent has to be concerned about, but when that unit is supported by multiple other dangerous units, it becomes much harder to deal with.

Anyways, that's all I really wanted to say on this issue.

Misjudging the weapon? Is that the reason? Ok let me spell it out for people not familiar with how the Death Ray works:

12" range, choose any point in that range, then choose a direction, roll 3d6 and the line goes that direction.

This makes shapes like: I's, Ls,\/s, and |/s and so forth.

Pretty simple if you ask me, but there it is folks so you aren't confused and bewildered by it. Either way a interesting way to think about it.

But seeing as you played yourself here, I am guessing you gave yourself the benefit of the doubt and the enemy being fooled into thinking they can get LoS cover from it, which is pretty damn hard given it can shoot like that. I love this part of testing, BTW

What I would do as the Draigowing? I would be a better list first of all, and 2nd, wait for the Doom Scythes to move up and deal with them as they try to get into range. But alas, they'll be swamped in CC eventually because it IS a bad list because it can't deal with enough threats at once. I really liked reading Blackmoor's NOVA Battle Reports to show this weakness.

---

As for the list, I'm not theorying at all: You have 3 threats for the enemy to worry about the first half of the game, the CC threats aren't threats until they cross the table, and much less of a threat if the enemy moves. Ask yourself these question right now and stare me back in the face seriously:

"Will the enemy shoot the Scarabs and Wraiths or will they shoot the stuff closing in to shoot/possess/pass over and hope for the kill to de-mech them?"

"Do I have any ranged threats beyond 24" outside of Anrakyr and some lucky Doom Scythes?"

" Am I banking on my enemy not knowing my rules?"

"Can any army effectively not mind the effects of Night Fight?"

"What if the enemy moves toward me and shoots the Doom Scythes before they get to shoot anyway?"

Food for thought. I did not say "X will counter " if you read any of that blurb, rather practical tactics that I do in many games and many good generals do every game. I saw how Reecius played in the video report vs this list and am just appalled really, I still don't understand why bunch up.

Ok smurfy the more I read the more I think you are not very knowledgeable about the new necrons ... as well as not completely reading responses to your posts.

Everything in JYs army is a threat turn 2. There is no "moving away". Wraith are jump infantry and scarabs are beasts, the are assaulting on turn 2.

His 24" threats are 2 barges, scarabs, lance teks, and doom scythes (you forget they move then shoot).

There is moving away -

You let the Wraiths hit something expedable, same with Scarabs, and deal with them. You can wait on the Doom Scythes/CMD Barges as they have to move in to fire, and focus down the Infantry while the Doom Scythes are in the wings wondering what to do. Does a mech army really care it loses 4-5 Rhinos to Wraiths if the Wraiths are lucky?

This isn't hard even with night fight - He moves to mid or 6" from mid, you move to 6" from mid or mid, Night Fight won't save the Wraiths from being shot to pieces. Avg spotting distance in Night Fight is 21", and most of his army is only good at below that range.

2 Lance Crypteks HELP but dont DESTROY

Barges wont do anything till they can hop over a unit at 24" at most (You prevent this by, I donno, putting another unit behind the unit you don't want wack'd so he can't land?), Anrak can launch a Tachyon arrow, hopefully kiling a tank but smart people have Cover first turn from that.

Doom Scythes are fragile, and will die if they move up because they're part of target priority as their aim is to De-Mech the enemy, not Wraiths or Scarabs (Because Scarabs hit a few vehicles, and die to flamers in the wings, this is what IG does)

Or the vehicles move in first and you deal with them first.

Either way you're good and off to a good lead.

Too much theoryhammer.

- you let wraiths hit? wraiths can just as easily jump over that unit and hit what you want.
- You do not have to move in a straight line to use a barges ability, and 24" is a long long bit of movement.
- Why would both players be moving 6" from mid .. I usually don't just run my doods down the table and hope for the best.
- Then the doom scythes are doing what they are meant for, soaking up AA fire for the rest of the army.
- What do you mean by "die to flamers in the wings" I know scarabs are vulnerable to templates but I have yet to see a competent general let a flamer hit scarabs unless they meant for it to happen.

I am still failing to see your logic on how jys list is subpar when even after all theory hammer it has proven to be a stout all comers list.

What? I don't get this first point at all.

2nd point: What weighs more: 24 Tons of Gold or 24 Tons of Feathers? Same thing here.

3. CC Cron list (Like this ) has to move across the table. Wraiths wanna charge right? How are they getting there?

4. How do Doom Scythes soak up AA fire with AV 11?

5. Scarabs assault a expendable tank, then more flamers come down on them cuz they can't consolidate. Mech IG 101 especially because you can get free Hull Heavy Flamers

Never mind, this is going no where.

Smurfy wrote: Misjudging the weapon? Is that the reason? Ok let me spell it out for people not familiar with how the Death Ray works:

12" range, choose any point in that range, then choose a direction, roll 3d6 and the line goes that direction.

This makes shapes like: I's, Ls,\/s, and |/s and so forth.

Pretty simple if you ask me, but there it is folks so you aren't confused and bewildered by it. Either way a interesting way to think about it.

But seeing as you played yourself here, I am guessing you gave yourself the benefit of the doubt and the enemy being fooled into thinking they can get LoS cover from it, which is pretty damn hard given it can shoot like that. I love this part of testing, BTW

What I would do as the Draigowing? I would be a better list first of all, and 2nd, wait for the Doom Scythes to move up and deal with them as they try to get into range. But alas, they'll be swamped in CC eventually because it IS a bad list because it can't deal with enough threats at once. I really liked reading Blackmoor's NOVA Battle Reports to show this weakness.

You should try playing against a Draigowing list. Sure, they have their limitations, but they are a damn tough army as well as a very good one. I don't think you quite realize that.

As for the list, I'm not theorying at all: You have 3 threats for the enemy to worry about the first half of the game, the CC threats aren't threats until they cross the table, and much less of a threat if the enemy moves. Ask yourself these question right now and stare me back in the face seriously:

Only 3? You have seriously under-estimated this necron build. Every unit, other than the spyders and warriors, are a threat.

"Will the enemy shoot the Scarabs and Wraiths or will they shoot the stuff closing in to shoot/possess/pass over and hope for the kill to de-mech them?"

These are exactly the types of questions....no, dilemmas my army poses to the opponent.

"Do I have any ranged threats beyond 24" outside of Anrakyr and some lucky Doom Scythes?"

My opponent doesn't have the luxury of worrying about anything over 24" away.

"Am I banking on my enemy not knowing my rules?"

If you are insinuating that I have to resort to "suprises" or taking advantage of my opponent's ignorance in order to win games, then that tells me more about you than anything you say. Maybe that's how you play, but don't go assuming other people play the same way.

I always let my opponents know about each and every unit of mine if they are not already familiar with it. And in the case where something is controversial, I will discuss it with my opponent pre-game to avoid in-game disagreements.

"Can any army effectively not mind the effects of Night Fight?"

Don't really care. A good TAC list has to be able to take into account Night-fight now. Necrons have changed the meta somewhat. But even if my opponent has some way to deal with night-fight, my army doesn't really care.

"What if the enemy moves toward me and shoots the Doom Scythes before they get to shoot anyway?"

Good, that just makes it easier for my army to do what it likes to do. If my opponent goes first, I deploy my doom scythes further back (or maybe even DS them) and dare my opponent to try to shoot them under the protection of NF.

Food for thought. I did not say "X will counter " if you read any of that blurb, rather practical tactics that I do in many games and many good generals do every game. I saw how Reecius played in the video report vs this list and am just appalled really, I still don't understand why bunch up.

No you didn't, but you are also not taking into account what the rest of my army will be doing. That is where a lot of these "comparisons" go south. They are done in a vacuum without regards for the rest of the army. There really is no explaining about this. You just have to face such a list commandeered by a competent general to really know how tough it is. Nothing on paper or even what I say can really prepare as much as experience can.

I see, I ain't judging by paper though, if it was paper I'd not factor in movement at all, but I do, I digress:

I wait for a BR against someone who's MSU mech and knows how to use it. That's a common enough archetype.

Editting because don't wanna double post.

Draigowing suffers because it's a Deathstar, just like any deathstar, it can be focus-fired on or usually dealt with embarressingly easy. Apparently you didn't know your own rules for Doom Scythe, so somehow it got a IDEAL shot. I call foul on that BS, don't admit if you don't want. Necrons can't do it but any other army can attempt to Tank Shock the unit a good amount of times, even Ld 10 will fail (And if it's DE - Ld 9 with Torment Grenade Shocks, something I love to do myself.)

Nothing past the Tachyon arrow and the 2 Doom Scythes worry me till Turn 3. You can chew on my Rhino's all you like, as long as I get rid of the Death Rays the CC army faces the same problem as any other CC army against Mech MSU - You charged the transports, grats, you killed them, now the occupants kill you back. T4 and 3+ Save is nothing new, unless you expect someone to try Missile Launchers/Autocannons on the AV 13...

24" (outside the Doom Scythes) is a luxury. Someone can easily make two battle lines. Tau do this very, very well as well as well as DE, Eldar, and a myriad of other builds. Your CC masses hit the expendable transports, check, shoot them to pieces, what's new here? If you survive you can get to the rear lines which is, in a good list, not a big loss? Or are killing Long Fangs in a SW list = automatic victory? I must be mistaken...

Yes, I am insinuating your opponent is caught by surprise, like the Paladins in this report. Reinforcing the BR: Nigh-Ideal shot, against-self, "I think they have Cover, op they don't" doesn't fool me in the slightest. To me this is you assuming the enemy doesn't understand the Death Ray, and thereby you catching the opponent by surprise. That's the chain of logic right there. Maybe, if you Zig-Zag'd them you'd even just 2/3 (which is entirely possible in that kind of deployment) but no, we caught the enemy by "surprise" and got a shot we would have loved to see obliterate over half the "supposed king unit" Turn 1. Biggest hole in your arguments about this list so far, is why I'm grumpy about it.

Any Fast army or massed Transported unit army doesn't mind the effects of Night Fight if you play this kind of list -

He sits back if you hang back, you shoot with what? 2 Tesla Destructors and hit 1 thing a turn with each Doom Scythe if lucky?
You deployed further up like, on the deployment edge, in sight? - He moves up 12, unloads in middle of the board, and now is 12" away from your forward Wraith/Scarabs line. 3d6x3 to spot, I think he can roll a 4-7 on 3d6 pretty easy) Scarabs again, can be ignored as anything they hit would be hit on 6's and probably explode most vehicles they mangle up due to massed Penetrations regardless if you put too many in one place. Moment they come out to play, they're focussed down by the infantry with nothing left to do but hunt Warriors or them. Not like normal infantry can take on Spyders unless they have hidden Fists, yeah?

You deploy forward but out of LoS - Dance Dance Revolution - A matter of the waiting game and manuevering while you try to figure out what should hit with first, probably a all-in move with the first wave and hope to golly that Wraiths tarpit meaningful CC units (Unlikely), or charged transports (They care because?)

Hope you keep things like this in mind in future testing, thanks.

I, too, would like to get a game in against Reecius' Bjorn-Missile wolves or even IG-vendetta-chimelta army such as Christian's list, as those 2 are still some of the best tournament lists currently. I won't say with confidence that I will beat them, but I'm pretty confident that they can't say the same about my MTO crons as well. One thing I will say for sure though, it would be a great match against some fine tournament-winning generals.