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'Vast gaps' is a pretty big understatement in how much non Imperial space lies between Imperial systems. 1 million worlds is a pittance of how many worlds there are in the galaxy. The 5th edition rulebook actually does go into this, describing the vast distances between Imperial systems.

Ascalam wrote:Fair enough. If we take faction to mean unified group (and exclude Daemons) the IOM is the most powerful. If we're talking game faction (as in what codex race you play..i've seen it phrased this way before) the Orks have it

True. It's stated as fact in the Ork Codex if I recall correctly.

The Necron fluff was written by an IOM fanboy, but hey...

Doesn't Ward primarily play Necrons though?

Saying they ruled the whole galaxy is a bit of a fallacy. There are vast gaps within the IOm's controlled area that are unexplored and uncontrolled, full of hostile races etc..

True enough.

-Loki- wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Nids, sorry you are holding onto some good drugs/hope if you think you will see your hive fleets pwning terra anytime soon.

They'd sooner give it to chaos or orks sorry.

Heh, yeah, the most fractured races in the game overcome the Imperium? Talk about being on drugs.

I actually agree with your statement here, cause i doubt GW will make the IOM fail to that degree that anyone can claim to be the victor over it.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Fair enough. If we take faction to mean unified group (and exclude Daemons) the IOM is the most powerful. If we're talking game faction (as in what codex race you play..i've seen it phrased this way before) the Orks have it

True. It's stated as fact in the Ork Codex if I recall correctly.

The Necron fluff was written by an IOM fanboy, but hey...

Doesn't Ward primarily play Necrons though?

Saying they ruled the whole galaxy is a bit of a fallacy. There are vast gaps within the IOm's controlled area that are unexplored and uncontrolled, full of hostile races etc..

True enough.

Ward was a Necron player, and then got into MAJOR Ultramarines fanboi-ism. He seems to have gotten back into necrons again lately

There's a reason why all the Marine codex (barring SW) are Ward, and UM are touted as being the Bestest thing evah

Orks know this to be a lie.. Nuffin beats Orkses.

Ascalam wrote:Fair enough. If we take faction to mean unified group (and exclude Daemons) the IOM is the most powerful. If we're talking game faction (as in what codex race you play..i've seen it phrased this way before) the Orks have it

The Necron fluff was written by an IOM fanboy, but hey... The Necrons also don't equate controls the most space with rules the galaxy either. The IOM is a fairly small amount of total space, but well spread across the galaxy and organised.

Saying they ruled the whole galaxy is a bit of a fallacy. There are vast gaps within the IOm's controlled area that are unexplored and uncontrolled, full of hostile races etc..

It is not that, it's just that Warhammer 40000 follows the sci-fi rules of Humanity:

Rule #1: Humans must be physically weaker from their enemies. ( Orks, Tyranids, Daemons... )
Rule #2: Humans always use weakest weapons against their enemies ( Lasgun, unless you are Space Marine... ) be it less ( Xenomorphs, Bugs ) or more advanced then Humans ( Tau, Eldar, Covenant... )
Rule #3: Humans always die in great numbers ( Starship Troopers, Siege of Vraks ), sometimes in greatest of suffering ( Dark Elar, Tyranids.. )
Rule #4: Humans always have special Character who will always beat the odds and lead them into victory no matter what. ( Master Chief, Johnny Rico, Ripley, Draigo, Dante... )
Rule #5: Humans always win, ALWAYS. In the end, being by some heroic actions of their leader or actually winning a long war with massed army's Humans always win at the end. ( Exept heretical Avatar, but Na'vi let Humans go home and when they return some 10 years later it will be glorious ).

1/ Tau, grots... eldar, deldar, orks, most lesser daemons are the same strength as humans, and weaker than SM. Tech level varies...

2/. Artillery is weak? Guard armies are stuffed with it, and it generaly packs a lot more punch than the xenos equivilent.. If anything i'd say the Xenos are the underdog as a whole against the IG and SM stuff.

3/. so do orks, tau (kroot especially) etc, also in great suffering (inquisition/ordo xenos..)

4/. True enough here. It's an annoying narrative convention. I like it better when the bad guys (who are usually smarter, better dressed and less cliche'd) win...

5/. There are others, but most big movies are American made, and so have to have the happy ending or upset the audience (and lots of gratuitous sex and explosions of course ).. Event horizon is one of the few US made ones that hints that the good guys are screwed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frankly your proposition would fly better if the IOM didn't have the best armour in the game, the best tanks in the game, the biggest guns in the game....

Brother Coa wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Fair enough. If we take faction to mean unified group (and exclude Daemons) the IOM is the most powerful. If we're talking game faction (as in what codex race you play..i've seen it phrased this way before) the Orks have it

The Necron fluff was written by an IOM fanboy, but hey... The Necrons also don't equate controls the most space with rules the galaxy either. The IOM is a fairly small amount of total space, but well spread across the galaxy and organised.

Saying they ruled the whole galaxy is a bit of a fallacy. There are vast gaps within the IOm's controlled area that are unexplored and uncontrolled, full of hostile races etc..

It is not that, it's just that Warhammer 40000 follows the sci-fi rules of Humanity:

Rule #1: Humans must be physically weaker from their enemies. ( Orks, Tyranids, Daemons... )
Rule #2: Humans always use weakest weapons against their enemies ( Lasgun, unless you are Space Marine... ) be it less ( Xenomorphs, Bugs ) or more advanced then Humans ( Tau, Eldar, Covenant... )
Rule #3: Humans always die in great numbers ( Starship Troopers, Siege of Vraks ), sometimes in greatest of suffering ( Dark Elar, Tyranids.. )
Rule #4: Humans always have special Character who will always beat the odds and lead them into victory no matter what. ( Master Chief, Johnny Rico, Ripley, Draigo, Dante... )
Rule #5: Humans always win, ALWAYS. In the end, being by some heroic actions of their leader or actually winning a long war with massed army's Humans always win at the end. ( Exept heretical Avatar, but Na'vi let Humans go home and when they return some 10 years later it will be glorious ).

#1: Imperial Stormtroopers were stronger than Ewoks. Jedi were easily better than droids.
#2: What about Alien, where the enemy didn't even have weapons?
#3: If there wasn't death there wouldn't be a threat. But everything else is dying in great numbers as well.
#4: That's because there has to be a main character, an avatar of the player.
#5: Actually, a lot of sci fi has incredibly depressing endings that only look like victory because the main character and a child/love interest/relative survives. What happened in Alien is hardly victory. And the Na'vi made the humans go home, bombing the planet wouldn't get them what they want.

-Loki- wrote:'Vast gaps' is a pretty big understatement in how much non Imperial space lies between Imperial systems. 1 million worlds is a pittance of how many worlds there are in the galaxy. The 5th edition rulebook actually does go into this, describing the vast distances between Imperial systems.

1. Warp travel is 'non linear'. There's many many world you ignores while you're doin' warp jumps. there's only two things to focus
a. Destination due.
b. Warp hazards. mostly demons and non-chaos warp life forms.
2. Galaxy is not actually 'Flat', while the Imperial Galaxy map always 2d, the actual Imperial space is 3d.

Durza wrote:
#1: Imperial Stormtroopers were stronger than Ewoks. Jedi were easily better than droids.

Taking Star Wars as example here is not quite fair, Humans there are the most powerful race. And I don't see them as a Humans myself, because there is no Earth and noone call them Humans ( except in extended universe ). In every other major sci-fi ( Terminator, Predator, Alien, Starship Troopers, Dead Space, Gears of War, Crysis, Starcraft, Star Trek... ) Humans are always weaker then their opponents.

#2: What about Alien, where the enemy didn't even have weapons?

In "Starship Troopers" Bugs don't have weapons to, and they tear Mobile Infantry to shreds. In aliens Xenomorphs also tear Marines in half in melee, in StarCraft zeeglings and zealots also don't have weapons and they tear marines in shreds. Liek I said - the crapiest weapons ( liek in Halo assault rifle vs plasma rifle ).

#3: If there wasn't death there wouldn't be a threat. But everything else is dying in great numbers as well.

Death ok, gruesome death on the other hand...

#4: That's because there has to be a main character, an avatar of the player.

But he is never balanced but stupidly overpowered ( like Master Chief ), it is liek that in almost every other sci-fi.

#5: Actually, a lot of sci fi has incredibly depressing endings that only look like victory because the main character and a child/love interest/relative survives. What happened in Alien is hardly victory. And the Na'vi made the humans go home, bombing the planet wouldn't get them what they want.

Humans always win in the end, be it slow or long-term ( as far as I know they were only exterminated in A.I. ). And in Avatar 2 they will bomb the planet and just collect the remains, I would use nukes without any question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:
Frankly your proposition would fly better if the IOM didn't have the best armour in the game, the best tanks in the game, the biggest guns in the game....

Like I said, Warhammer have heavy dose of Human special rule #5.

Lone Cat wrote:

-Loki- wrote:'Vast gaps' is a pretty big understatement in how much non Imperial space lies between Imperial systems. 1 million worlds is a pittance of how many worlds there are in the galaxy. The 5th edition rulebook actually does go into this, describing the vast distances between Imperial systems.

1. Warp travel is 'non linear'. There's many many world you ignores while you're doin' warp jumps. there's only two things to focus
a. Destination due.
b. Warp hazards. mostly demons and non-chaos warp life forms.
2. Galaxy is not actually 'Flat', while the Imperial Galaxy map always 2d, the actual Imperial space is 3d.

None of that refutes the fact that the IoM is actually very small, when regarding populated worlds.

Your second point, that the galaxy is not flat, makes my case even more. When you consider only 1 million worlds in a 2d plane, it's a very insignificant amount of the galaxy populated by the IoM. When you consider the 3 dimensional view of the glaxy, 1 million worlds is pitifully small (even going by todays estimates of how many planets sit in the 'habitable zone' of the Milky Ways ~400 billion stars). They occupy an 'Empire' that is a tiny amount of worlds (on the galactic scale) spread out and separated by entire systems.

Warp travel might make it easier to travel such a disparate empire, but it doesn't change the fact that the IoM is absolutely tiny on the galactic scale.

-Loki- wrote:
None of that refutes the fact that the IoM is actually very small, when regarding populated worlds.

In galactic plane - yes. But politically - no.
No other unified faction have that much planets under it's control. And the cooperation of those 1.000.000+ worlds is what makes that Imperium strong.

In the entire 40k history, only one faction has ever reached Terra and came within a hair's breath of winning, and that was chaos. It wasn't Tyranids or Orks or Necrons, it was the entire Chao Space Marines legions under the warmaster with the combined 4 chaos gods behind him.

So, theoratically, the one with the biggest chance, again remains a united chaos army (all 4 gods plus all the chaos space marines). The reason is because it can cause IOM to turn on itself, for brother to fight brother, even the loyalist space marines.

IOM biggest threat is itself, and chaos is often the cause behind that. MARs is powerful? What if the highest Tech priests on MARs were seduced to turn to chaos for forbidden knowledge and power? Suddenly you will have Warlord Titans within a hair's breath of Terra.

What if one powerful warmaster was seduced by Chaos and influenced half of the other Terra lords to turn renegade? Bam, instant repeat of the Horus Heresy.

What if Abaddon gets his act together? Same thing.

Chaos can create an infinite number of units, they just need enough death and destruction to feed it. Chaos is the only the thing that can bypass all the numerous planets that stand before Terra. Have a huge daemonic portal open within Terra itself, and the next thing you know, the entire world will be swarming with daemonic hordes.

Eldenfirefly wrote:In the entire 40k history, only one faction has ever reached Terra and came within a hair's breath of winning, and that was chaos. It wasn't Tyranids or Orks or Necrons, it was the entire Chao Space Marines legions under the warmaster with the combined 4 chaos gods behind him.

So, theoratically, the one with the biggest chance, again remains a united chaos army (all 4 gods plus all the chaos space marines). The reason is because it can cause IOM to turn on itself, for brother to fight brother, even the loyalist space marines.

IOM biggest threat is itself, and chaos is often the cause behind that. MARs is powerful? What if the highest Tech priests on MARs were seduced to turn to chaos for forbidden knowledge and power? Suddenly you will have Warlord Titans within a hair's breath of Terra.

What if one powerful warmaster was seduced by Chaos and influenced half of the other Terra lords to turn renegade? Bam, instant repeat of the Horus Heresy.

What if Abaddon gets his act together? Same thing.

Chaos can create an infinite number of units, they just need enough death and destruction to feed it. Chaos is the only the thing that can bypass all the numerous planets that stand before Terra. Have a huge daemonic portal open within Terra itself, and the next thing you know, the entire world will be swarming with daemonic hordes.

congradulations you are offically the 3rd person to state this fact in this thread. Please read posts before posting your own

It dose mention multiple times that in the somewhat near future (43rd thousand year idk) that the tyranid hive fleet will arive at Holy Terra but by the time thatthat happens I think that another force will arive at holy Terra. Not to mention I think that the Adeptus Mechanicus (did I say that right?) most likley has some super special back up plan in the case of invasion. The overall fact of the matter is you have a good nine appousing forces against the Imperium so I am putting my betts on the Chaos or the Orks.
What do you think the end result would be?

Chaos Orks i think

I have a nurgle-infested ork warband somewhere...

Ascalam wrote:Chaos Orks i think

I have a nurgle-infested ork warband somewhere...

Chaos is far, far too weedy and weak to take over the Orks. The Chaos Gods cower in fear before the casual violence meted out by Gork and Mork!

On a slightly more serious note, Orks and Chaos actually don't interact, hardly at all. The Orks were genetically engineered at least partially to fight the Enslaver Plague; their racial psychic power goes entirely into the Waaagh! field, and the Waaagh! field powers Gork and Mork. Since Orks are so massively numerous, and they're all so similar psychologically, Gork and Mork are massively powerful Warp entities, to the point that the Chaos Gods literally aren't capable of fighting them. That being so, the only way to 'possess' an Ork is if the Ork in question essentially invites the daemon in.

. . . though come to think of it, many Nurglite daemons ARE a proper shade of green. Hmm. . .

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Chaos Orks i think

I have a nurgle-infested ork warband somewhere...

Chaos is far, far too weedy and weak to take over the Orks. The Chaos Gods cower in fear before the casual violence meted out by Gork and Mork!

That's the Emperor actually. Khorne would like Gork at least. And there have been a few instances of Orks worshiping Khorne and Nurgle accidentally.

Durza wrote:
That's the Emperor actually. Khorne would like Gork at least. And there have been a few instances of Orks worshiping Khorne and Nurgle accidentally.

There's a quote in the Ork Codex which states, although I can't quote it since I don't have it with me, that Gork and Mork are just so BIG that the attacks of other Warp entities don't bother them. They're the manifestation of the Orkish race in the Warp, and there are so many Orks that they simply overpower everybody else.

You should also note that Ork emotions do not feed the Chaos Gods at all; they feed Gork and Mork instead. Khorne isn't getting anything from all those bajillions of Orks out there, no matter how violent they are. Gork and Mork are.

Khorne's still getting power from their victims either way

Too interesting; Did read!

Though, one thing that kept striking me, through out this whole "realism meets fictive 40k" scenery, was the lack attention towards i very large factor within the whole 40k universe: The Warp.

When discussing and measuring up given facts against the realm of possibilities, we must first adapt to the given fictive universe, in order to completely answer these question. Therefore, i personally believe that The Warp plays a much larger role, than it gets credit for;

There is even a great deal of fluff, that strongly supports, that the influence of the Immaterium (or The Warp if you prefer), carries a much stronger influence than any other given force, through out the entire 40k universe. One of the most well-known, being the fall of the God-Emperor against the combined strength of the Chaos Gods within Horus. Not to mention The Fall of the Eldar, that soon thereafter gave birth to The Eye of Terror. A Warp rift so large, that it covered most of the ancient Eldar Empire.

Generally speaking, these energies, contained within the Immaterium bears such great influences upon the universe, and yet, they are much disregarded and neglected. Even in lesser cases, such as Psykers who harnesses the tiniest of energies, and hence utilizes it in form of powerful energy storms and alike.